mini 814: OVER!

[Droideka_11]

Voting is a tool to find scum. If you vote for yourself, you are either misleading the town or saying there's a good chance you're scum. The town should pursue cases against those that are voted on, be it self votes or otherwise. It seems obvious to me.

Yes because scum often vote for themselves...

I don't see how Henrz was acting scummy when he voted for himself. Attracting uneeded attention to yourself in order to get the game moving is hardly scummy IMO.

WIFOM much? If self voting was pro town, everyone would do it all the time.

I love it when people just chalk everything up to WIFOM.

Generaly scum try not to attract uneeded attention to themselves, don't you agree? There was no need for Henrz to do what he did as scum.

[MonkeySudo]

Voting is a tool to find scum. If you vote for yourself, you are either misleading the town or saying there's a good chance you're scum. The town should pursue cases against those that are voted on, be it self votes or otherwise. It seems obvious to me.

Yes because scum often vote for themselves...

I don't see how Henrz was acting scummy when he voted for himself. Attracting uneeded attention to yourself in order to get the game moving is hardly scummy IMO.

WIFOM much? If self voting was pro town, everyone would do it all the time.

I love it when people just chalk everything up to WIFOM.

Generaly scum try not to attract uneeded attention to themselves, don't you agree? There was no need for Henrz to do what he did as scum.

You're theory is based on the assumption he wouldn't make a mistake.

[Locke Lamora]

I had a very similar discussion about this in Newbie 779 over whether sirdanilot was scummy for suggesting we skip the RVS. I agree with Droideka that it's unlikely Hernz would bother drawing attention to himself if he was scum. However, it is WIFOM-y and we shouldn't base any cases on it.

Droideka: do you think Starbuck is scummier than Monkey?

[Henrz]

Monkey, eventually I'm going to try and get you replaced, just REMEMBER TO CHANGE YOU BLOODY ACCOUNT!!! And I think self-voting is neutral (generally) and I stick by that.

[Droideka_11]

Droideka: do you think Starbuck is scummier than Monkey?

Well we've beeen focusing a lot on Monkey and less on Starbuck, I find Starbuck to be more scummy than Monkey. Monkey has been giving some reasons for why he voted for Henrz (albeat flawed IMO) whilst Starbuck hasn't posted much since and the reasons for voting Henrz were very poor.

Here's her post:

I don't like your reasoning at all for voting for yourself.

Vote: Henrz

She does a blatant bandwagon, completely ignores whatever Henrz just said and puts Henrz at L-2. That I think is scummy.

[Starbuck]

You should read farther on Droid. I elaborate.

[Droideka_11]

You should read farther on Droid. I elaborate.

You elaborate very little. They're all either one or two liners, they hardly contain any solid reasons. Lets look at all your posts since then:

I don't think that self-voting should be used EVER. That's why I voted Henrz.

Again you completely ignore whatever Henrz said and simply say you're voting for him because it shouldn't be used "EVER".

The goal of this game is not to vote for yourself. It's to decipher and solve and find out who the scummiest people are.

Voting for yourself is anti-town. It's a stance I will always take because it is against the spirit of the game.

You're taking a stance on something and you're not looking at it within the context of the game.

I agree with this. There's an easy fix. Just don't look at this thread when you are on that account. You said it's your mod account right? I don't really feel comfortable with the fact that you could easily come in and edit your post whenever you feel like it with that account.

This is your next post in which you only post about Monkey's second account. Actively lurking IMO.

There are better ways to stimulate conversation other than self-voting. Henrz only joined just a few days before I did, so I would say he should have been around long enough now to know better.

I disagree, there was nothing going on at the time and the game was stalling. Clearly there were no "better ways to stimulate conversation".

In summary, the reason I think you're scummy is because you completely ignore the

reasons

why Henrz voted for himself. Instead you generalize the situation and excuse your vote by saying "self-voting shouldn't be used ever", much like Monkey did.

[Starbuck]

I didn't ignore him at all.

There ARE much better ways to stimulate conversation.

The fact that someone would place a vote on themselves is completely against the way Mafia is played. If you want to think me suspicious for this, fine. I really don't care.

The fact that you have nothing else on me other than the fact that I think self-voting is wrong is pretty scummy on your part.

[Droideka_11]

I didn't ignore him at all.

There ARE much better ways to stimulate conversation.

The fact that someone would place a vote on themselves is completely against the way Mafia is played. If you want to think me suspicious for this, fine. I really don't care.

The fact that you have nothing else on me other than the fact that I think self-voting is wrong is pretty scummy on your part.

Yet again you're generalizing what Henrz did. Yes, he voted for himself,

but

he had actual reasons for doing so, which proved beneficial to the town. You're not looking at how it's benefited the town and instead you are voting for him solely on the grounds that "self-voting is always scummy", whcih is not always the case.

I mean look at whats happened since Henrz self-voted, we have a lot of discussion going on and we're actually duscussing something. Surely this in itself is proof that Self-Voting is not

always

as scummy as you are so intent on believing.

[Starbuck]

Self-voting should never be used.

We just need to agree to disagree and move on.

[Spinach]

Self-voting should never be used.

We just need to agree to disagree and move on.

Move on? You know that's never going to happen. Besides, you're suggesting we move on from an useful discussion. And if Hernz didn't self-vote what would have happened? We would still be stuck in useless discussion probably getting nowhere. You can't complain at Hernz for stimulating discussion when you yourself did nothing.

And monkey, THIS IS THE LAST STRAW. I'm only using caps because you can't seem to get it through your head that you need to use ONE account to post in this game. It's not that hard.

[Henrz]

1.I didn't ignore him at all.

2.There ARE much better ways to stimulate conversation.

3-1.The fact that someone would place a vote on themselves is completely against the way Mafia is played.3-2. If you want to think me suspicious for this, fine. I really don't care.

4.The fact that you have nothing else on me other than the fact that I think self-voting is wrong is pretty scummy on your part.

1.You're right, you didn't ignore me, you just ignored the

good consequences

from it.
2. Please name them and if it would've helped as much. Basically, I took the initiative, you didn't, if your other ways are so amazingly good, why didn't you use them?
3-1. You still haven't supplied any evidence as to why it's against the game, so. Why is it against the spirit of the game, Starbuck?
3-2. You should care if people are suspicious of you, in my books, not caring is more against the game than self-voting.
4. No, I don't think it's scummy on his part, I think it's scummy on your part not looking at what it's done to the game.

1.Self-voting should never be used.

2.We just need to agree to disagree and move on.

1. I disagree.
2. No, we should not move on, we should question you on your actions, if we find the answers suffice, we will postpone the argument, until suspicion dawns on you again, then we may well re-ignite the argument.

[Starbuck]

There were good consequences from it, but then again there could have been negative consequences. Any time I've seen a self-vote, negative consequences have always occurred. It's why I am staunchly against it. It's a personal preference of my own. I don't like self-voting.

What has it done to the game other than having us all fight about whether self-voting is wrong? This game should be moved to the Mafia Discussion section of this forum because that's what it has turned into.

[Locke Lamora]

Starbuck: reading back, pretty much all you've been doing since Hernz self-voted is talking about Hernz and self-voting. In fact, you haven't done any other scumhunting at all since that vote, and the vote itself is based more on a personal principle than it is on Hernz being scummy.

FOS: Starbuck

[Starbuck]

Did I not just say that above?

[Starbuck]

Unvote

[Locke Lamora]

I think other people have been scumhunting: going after you, for one. There's also been plenty of pressure on Monkey for the way he jumped on Hernz's wagon and his subsequent justification. When I read back your posts, all you've really been doing is defending your own anti-self-voting stance, not looking for scum.

[Starbuck]

That's what everyone has been harping on me about, so I actually haven't had a chance to scum hunt with mostly everyone on my case because I think differently from them about self-voting.

[Locke Lamora]

So do you find anyone else scummy apart from Hernz? What do you make of the case on Monkey?

[Tarballs]

What has it done to the game other than having us all fight about whether self-voting is wrong?

So you think that debating about whether or not self-voting is wrong is bad? I think it's exactly the opposite - it got the discussion going and we got out of the RVS for good. And most importantly, everyone reacted to Hernz's selfvote in different ways, which is also very informative. Take this, for example:

And the response to the Random vote... Doesn't really help...

Unvote Vote: Henrz

. Discuss.

...

I don't think that's a particularly great reaction, because it looks like Droideka wanted to wait for everyone else to comment on that first, before saying anything himself. He doesn't comment the selfvote at all, until Hernz explains why he did it. Then we get this:

I think Henrz explanation for voting for himself was satisfactory. This looks like a blatant bandwagon to me.

So, why didn't you comment on the selfvote before Hernz explained it? If you were just waiting for an explanation, why was that?

[mykonian]

searching for a replacement for DOESnotWANT now

[Droideka_11]

What has it done to the game other than having us all fight about whether self-voting is wrong?

So you think that debating about whether or not self-voting is wrong is bad? I think it's exactly the opposite - it got the discussion going and we got out of the RVS for good. And most importantly, everyone reacted to Hernz's selfvote in different ways, which is also very informative. Take this, for example:

And the response to the Random vote... Doesn't really help...

Unvote Vote: Henrz

. Discuss.

...

I don't think that's a particularly great reaction, because it looks like Droideka wanted to wait for everyone else to comment on that first, before saying anything himself. He doesn't comment the selfvote at all, until Hernz explains why he did it. Then we get this:

I think Henrz explanation for voting for himself was satisfactory. This looks like a blatant bandwagon to me.

So, why didn't you comment on the selfvote before Hernz explained it? If you were just waiting for an explanation, why was that?

I didn't know what to make of it at the time. Actualy at first I thought Henrz was being stupid. I'd never seen anyone self-vote out of nowhere. However, later on I see that it actualy was a pretty good way to kickstart the game.

Anyways, I think Starbuck was acting scummy when she voted for Henrz. She completely ignored what came out of it and excused hereself by saying it was a policy vote (i.e. Self-voting is always bad).

[Starbuck]

Wow Droid, quite the tunnel vision you have there.

[Henrz]

Wow Droid, quite the tunnel vision you have there.

Uhh what does tunnel vision mean?

[mykonian]

Fluffy replaces DOESnotWANT!

thank you very much, Fluffy!