mini 814: OVER!

[mykonian]

the circle, votecount

KittyMo

replaces MonkeyMan576

(0):
Droideka_11:

vanilla towny

killed night 1
ODDin (0):
Spinach (1): Tarballs, Locke Lamora, Henrz
Fluffy

replaces DOESnotWANT

(0):
Locke Lamora (0):
Tarballs

replaces Claramata

(2): Fluffy, Spinach
Henrz (0):
Starbuck:

Mafia Silencer

lynched day 1

not voting (4): ODDin, KittyMo

Spinach is a L-1

I am sorry for monkeyman. I was maybe a bit hasty with replacing him,
and in case I have really annoyed/hurt him, I would really like to know.

But KittyMo is already well in to the game, and it would be unfair to her to simply use her to fill the holes in a game. I would like her to continue playing.

[mykonian]

and before I forget: deadline is extended to wednesday

[ODDin]

Hey people, I got pretty sick yesterday, so I can't really process complex information right now.
I can still hammer if necessary, but I won't be able to judge any new arguments decently. I do hope I get fine before the new deadline, though.

[KittyMo]

I'd like to hear Kitty's view on Tarballs, she hasn't given us that yet. Other than that, I'm fine with the hammer, deadline's on Monday so I have no problem with it at this stage.

Oh, whoops, I didn't do that? Thought I did. Oh well. I'll have it later today.

[KittyMo]

My dinner was so spicy and disgusting, I feel like I'm going to puke... Had indian food. -.- I'm really not in the mood for analysis. I swear I'll have it asap, once I'm feeling up to it.

[KittyMo]

All righty, here it is:

Tarballs:

He replaced Claramata, whose only post contained an oddly phrased statement. (#3)

But, other than that, I can't really find anything he does scummy. This statement seems off, though:

Good to see we were spot on with Starbuck.

There he goes again, tapping himself in the back.

But, that was apparently a joke, so I'm not too worried.

Read: Neutral (but if I had to go either way, I'd go slight town)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll be willing to hammer Spinach if you guys want. I'll obviously wait until a lot later before doing that, though.

[KittyMo]

EBWOP:

Good to see we were spot on with Starbuck.

There he goes again, tapping himself in the back.

Fixed quote tag.

[Locke Lamora]

What's off about it, Kitty? Did you find his earlier comment on my apparent self-congratulation strange too?

[KittyMo]

What's off about it, Kitty? Did you find his earlier comment on my apparent self-congratulation strange too?

It seemed insincere. I know when I'm playing as scum, that's a tell I drop. You were congratulating the town for lynching scum, and yet he saw it as patting yourself on the back. That part of it also seemed odd.

Yeah, I did find the other one kind of odd too, but not as much. I've seen how very pro-town you can be as scum first-hand, so I'd have to disagree with him, but perhaps he hasn't seen your meta?

[Tarballs]

He replaced Claramata, whose only post contained an oddly phrased statement. (#3)

But, other than that, I can't really find anything he does scummy. This statement seems off, though:

Good to see we were spot on with Starbuck.

There he goes again, tapping himself in the back.

But, that was apparently a joke, so I'm not too worried.

Read: Neutral (but if I had to go either way, I'd go slight town)

Previously you said you had a slight scum read on me, but now you're not seeing anything odd about my play except that "apparent joke". So what made you change your mind?

And I didn't mean that comment as a joke. I recalled someone called out Locke on day 1 for him patting himself in the back, then saw him do that again at start of day 2. I don't know if it meant that much, but I felt it wouldn't hurt to point it out.

perhaps he hasn't seen your meta?

I believe I already told how Locke seems pro-town in every game and is therefore very difficult to get a read on. And the game that you posted isn't that great of an example, since Locke replaced in so late in the game and didn't get to say very much.

[Locke Lamora]

Agreed. Read Mini 819 if you want a more extensive scum game of mine. I didn't do that good a job of looking pro-town in that one, especially on D1. Archon's flip helped me a lot and I got lucky at the end.

Spinach's resignation just strikes me as odd. It's not very pro-town, for one, and it's not as though he even had more votes than Tarballs when he gave up. He didn't even bother to make much of a case on Tarballs, which I would think a townie looking for scum to get lynched after their own demise would put a lot more effort into. I welcome the hammer at this stage.

[KittyMo]

He replaced Claramata, whose only post contained an oddly phrased statement. (#3)

But, other than that, I can't really find anything he does scummy. This statement seems off, though:

Good to see we were spot on with Starbuck.

There he goes again, tapping himself in the back.

But, that was apparently a joke, so I'm not too worried.

Read: Neutral (but if I had to go either way, I'd go slight town)

Previously you said you had a slight scum read on me, but now you're not seeing anything odd about my play except that "apparent joke". So what made you change your mind?

Most of my reads at that point were gut feeling. I recall saying that, but maybe I forgot...

And I didn't mean that comment as a joke. I recalled someone called out Locke on day 1 for him patting himself in the back, then saw him do that again at start of day 2. I don't know if it meant that much, but I felt it wouldn't hurt to point it out.

I don't see why you see it as him patting himself on the back. Wasn't he patting everyone on the back who found Starbuck scummy...? Or am I totally missing something?

perhaps he hasn't seen your meta?

I believe I already told how Locke seems pro-town in every game and is therefore very difficult to get a read on. And the game that you posted isn't that great of an example, since Locke replaced in so late in the game and didn't get to say very much.

You're right. I could've sworn it was someone else that said Locke always seems to be protown, but now that I think about it, it actually was you. I'm really sorry. :/ Disregard that part?

[Tarballs]

I don't see why you see it as him patting himself on the back. Wasn't he patting everyone on the back who found Starbuck scummy...? Or am I totally missing something?

Yes, you are correct, but that everyone also included himself.

You're right. I could've sworn it was someone else that said Locke always seems to be protown, but now that I think about it, it actually was you. I'm really sorry. :/ Disregard that part?

That wasn't even such a big deal.

[KittyMo]

I guess I'll be off reading Locke's meta, since I obviously have misconceptions about it.

[Spinach]

I didn't make a case because everything I say is twisted back around and used against me. But if you insist, I'll have a post up later tonight. Feel free to hammer (or I will if you so wish) after then.

[Spinach]

To anyone who feels like answering:

What is your opinions on the random voting stage?

Why did you pick this game in particular?

Who do you expect to be the first person to be lynched this game, and why?

Who do you want to be lynched first this game, and why?


Thank you for your time.

1. I have no real opinion on the random voting stage. It's as good as any way to get a game started, I guess.

2. I like the idea behind it, the talking to people "next to you". It seems very intriguing and I can wait to see how the whispering plays out.

3. I don't know, I'm hoping it won't be me, as I tend to be an early lynch when playing town.

4. I don't have any opinions on any of the players at this particular moment.

Claramata, the former Tarballs, makes an oddly worded response and then disappears. Scum points for Tarballs.

Hi, I'll be replacing Claramata. Took a quick glance at the thread and will post some thoughts later.

If I understood post #2 correctly, there's supposed to be a circle that shows who's everyone's "neighbour" is, but I can't see it. Unless it's this:

MonkeyMan576 (1): Spinach
Droideka_11 (1): Henrz
ODDin (0):
Spinach (2): MonkeyMan576, Starbuck
DOESnotWANT (0):
Locke Lamora (0):
Claramata (0):
Henrz (0):
Starbuck (3): Droideka_11, ODDin, DOESnotWANT

So, is it that?

Tarball's first post asking for clarification. Neutral points.

What is your opinions on the random voting stage?

It gets the game going. Random questions are better, though.

Why did you pick this game in particular?

I just got killed in another game and am modding a similar game as this, so the timing seemed fitting.

Who do you expect to be the first person to be lynched this game, and why?

Easier to say who it's

not

going to be. Locke Lamora and DOESnotWANT are very likely to survive this day, I believe, based on their pro-town way of playing.

Who do you want to be lynched first this game, and why?

No idea yet.

And by the way, you didnt answer those questions yourself. Now that everyone else has answered, it's your turn. :D


And wow, is this game really stalling. ODDin, MonkeyMan and DnW haven't posted for almost a week. Where are you?

Tarballs: what is your opinion of your neighbours?

Just you and Hernz, or everyone? A player-by-player analysis seems rather useless this early on. No one's really standing out yet, in neither a good or a bad way... I guess that's also the reason the game has stalled. It feels like we're still in the random voting stage.

Tarballs responds to questions. It is

VERY

odd Tarballs would even think of saying someone is town right off of the bat, and then says nobody stands out, and a contradiction on top of it. He then asks for clarifacation on a fairly obvious comment. Yay for filler text? >_> + scum points for Tarballs.

Weird how you say LL and DNW are pro-town, then say nobody stands out yet.
If you mean something else, feel free to correct me.

Good point, but I meant their general pro-towniness; something that occurs every game. I've read a game or two with LL in them, and he seemed to act in a very pro-town way right from the beginning, and I'm seeing it happening here as well. If someone always acts pro-town, I see it as kind of a null tell, so that doesn't stand out. I haven't seen any others of you before, but DnW is apparently an alt of Thestatusquo, whose games I have seen and recall her to be same kind of a player as LL.

I did send a PM to myk because I feel that voting for yourself is against the spirit of the game.

I would agree that it is, but we still seem to be in the random voting stage, and there's nothing wrong in selfvoting during the RVS. It's a random vote, you might as well throw it at yourself.

However! Making a random vote, and not just any vote but a selfvote, 4 pages into the game

doesn't help us progress, so therefore he is obviously stalling the game on purpose.

On the other hand, this will cause people to vote him for that anti-town play,

which quite possibly will help us leave the RVS behind.

He wants us to vote him, so that's exactly what I'm going to do :D

Vote: Henrz

Tarballs explains his earlier contradiction, but still, acting pro-town and being town

are practically the same thing

so, therefore, the contradiction still exists. Then Tarballs makes a flawed vote on hernz. Please look at the bolded parts, woot contradictions, + Scum points for reasons explained.

-Tarballs lurks for 4 days-

Ok, this is how I see it: Henrz selfvoted to get reactions that would get us out of the RVS for good. Selfvoting is never pro-town in itself, but it's not always anti-town, either. And there's also a difference between anti-town and scummy. Scummy is almost always anti-town, but anti-town isn't always scummy.

I can't see how scum would be more likely to selfvote than townies. It's fairly obvious that Hernz's selfvote was nowhere near a serious vote. I think Starbuck and especially MM are pushing a bit too hard here.

Also, look at this inconsistency between posts #106 and #108:

If you want to defend self voting as a valid tactic, that's fine. I don't. I think it's anti town.

Not necessarily so much scummy

, but definately anti town. There's better things we could be doing that will bring better results.

Lynching

scummy self-voters

.

Unvote, Vote: MonkeyMan576

Mod: Votecount? And how about prodding/replacing DOESnotWANT?

Um, no, you didn't see it like that. You said Hernz was stalling and doesn't help us progress. Infact, this whole post contradicts with his last post. He then points out a contradiction with Monkey and votes him. + Scum points for Tarballs. He's the king of contradictions by now...

-Tarballs lurks again, this time for 3 days-

What has it done to the game other than having us all fight about whether self-voting is wrong?

So you think that debating about whether or not self-voting is wrong is bad? I think it's exactly the opposite - it got the discussion going and we got out of the RVS for good. And most importantly, everyone reacted to Hernz's selfvote in different ways, which is also very informative. Take this, for example:

And the response to the Random vote... Doesn't really help...

Unvote Vote: Henrz

. Discuss.

...

I don't think that's a particularly great reaction, because it looks like Droideka wanted to wait for everyone else to comment on that first, before saying anything himself. He doesn't comment the selfvote at all, until Hernz explains why he did it. Then we get this:

I think Henrz explanation for voting for himself was satisfactory. This looks like a blatant bandwagon to me.

So, why didn't you comment on the selfvote before Hernz explained it? If you were just waiting for an explanation, why was that?

Again, another contradiction to his first post after Hernz's vote, he again reinstates his previous contradiction. He then makes a totally horrible guess on Droid's comment. He says droid was waiting, but if droid's object was to wait for other comments, why would he make a post? If he would've just waited he could've done the same thing, but less recognizable. To me it seems like that comment showed his unapproval of hernz's actions.

Um... That was the hammer right there. And we didn't even get a claim. Or the replacer's thoughts.

Tarballs points out the hammer. Neither scummy nor town...ish.

END OF DAY ONE

Lets Recap:
* Claramata has a funny response, and Tarballs contradicts like crazy.
* He didn't vote starbuck, and had very little reaction with her. I realize I did the same but this is against Tarballs, not me.

Day 2 up later.

[Spinach]

The end of last day really was interesting, to say the least. MonkeyMan was my top suspect, but after that hammer and Starbuck flipping scum, I don't see him getting lynched in near future. I'll still keep my eye on him, though.

Is everyone up for lynching Monkey tomorrow (depending on if Starbuck is scum or not)?

I don't quite understand what the meaning of this question was. Were you willing to just go and speedlynch MonkeyMan if Starbuck had flipped town?

It's just crap. I was asked to give my suspicions. I've had a notepad document going because I prefer big analysis posts rather than the 5 billion posts people make when doing analysis. I was going to finish it up when I got home and post it. I was getting ready to and noticed I was hammered. No wait, no nothing. I really was looking forward to this game, thank you all for ruining it based on the fact that I hate self-voting rather than anything scummy.

I know. I've also had a fairly large post in the works in my notes section, but

all that work is now in vain

. It's very frustrating.

How is it in vain? It's never too late to post your thoughts, or at least some of them, even if Starbuck was quickhammered. Well, unless you were about to defend her.

Good to see we were spot on with Starbuck.

There he goes again, tapping himself in the back. :D

Considering the behind-the-scenes PMs, I don't think we should have dead people replacing in.

Yeah, agreed. And dead people shouldn't even post in the thread, or that's what rule #15 says anyway.

Mod: Could we have some info on who replaced who on the first post? Otherwise it will get really confusing, if there are more replacements.

Tarball's first post on D2, indicating that monkey is suddenly town because he hammers, meaning he is out of suspects. more interestingly, he doesn't reply to anything LL has said about him, only to make a joke. + Minor scum points for tarballs.

Is everyone up for lynching Monkey tomorrow (depending on if Starbuck is scum or not)?

I don't quite understand what the meaning of this question was. Were you willing to just go and speedlynch MonkeyMan if Starbuck had flipped town?

That question is still without an answer.

Also, while we're on the topic of Tarballs, I realized something.
I realized that (from the nightkill) the mafia have another goal in this game: to hamper communication.
Then I looked at the nightkill. They were obviously trying to isolate someone, and they could do it in two ways:
a) Kill Droid and isolate Monkey. (the outcome)
b) Kill Tarballs and isolate Hernz.

So I have a question: Why was option a chosen over option b? Could Tarballs be scum, rendering option b impossible? I know it seems... far-fetched, but I'd just like to throw it out there while we're talking about him.

Trying to guess why the scum killed who they killed, when there is no obvious reason, is almost never a good idea. And if the mafia really wanted to isolate someone, they could've just flipped a coin between me and Droideka. Or something. Anyhow, the fact that I wasn't killed doesn't prove anything here.

spinach - i think that's an interesting theory, hadn't thought of it from that angle,

but isn't that assuming that communication is important to playing this game, it hasn't added anything new for me at the stage of the game, could be just me though.

Yeah, I had thought of it as useless until Starbuck died, then I realized we could have an all-silencer mafia.

How do you even know what a Silencer does? How would it make this different if there were two Silencers instead of just one? And it also seems like you knew that a Silencer exists before Starbuck even flipped... which should be impossible, if you're town.

Vote: Spinach

I make a post agaist tarballs, but suddenly, he cares about my post! But not about LL's, or Fluffy. And the fact that you weren't killed DOES prove something here, and asking how I know what a silencer does is like asking how I know what a doctor does. It's pretty self-explanatory. He then thinks I knew a silencer existed before starbuck flipped.. yet fails to bring up any evidance from D1. To me, it seems like Tarballs, the scum, was out of targets and decided to pick up on me for flawed reasons. + scum points for Tarballs.

Oops, sorry, In answer. Kinda yes... But, I was meaning like after his defence, not before, and even then maybe not, but yeah, I kinda was. Bus NOT a speedlynch.

That's a horribly wishy-washy answer. :D

Did you fail to read that last sentence? I've bolded it for your reading convenience. I said that I just wanted to throw it out there, and that I knew it was far-fetched, and that it probably meant next to nothing.

I did read the last sentence. It's just that you admitted yourself that it was far-fetched, and that it "probably means next to nothing", yet you still felt the need of pointing it out.


And is it just me, or is this game starting to slow down again?

Mod: I'm requesting that you prod ODDin, who hasn't posted for almost a week now.

Tarballs points out the obvious flaw in Hernz's answer. Filler Text. And even if something means next to nothing, I wanted the village's feedback. Posting something is better than nothing. + scum points for Tarballs.

Ugh... Yeah, nothing is happening here. I'm on a 4-week vacation now, so I should have more time. Hopefully this game starts to pick up some pace.

You still haven't responded to Fluffy and LL.

They're voting for me because I wasn't on the Starbuck wagon yesterday, which is something that I can't change anymore. And they didn't even ask anything that I could've answered to.

To be honest, I wasn't following Locke on the Tarballs vote, I just sat down to try and analyse who could be scum partner objectively - ie. based on voting patterns, which is based on the information we got from day 1 in light of the outcome of the lynch and nightkill, I didn't even realise Locke had voted Tarballs until I posted and then read his post.

That's one of the main reasons why people get hammered accidentally. You should

always

look what everyone else is doing before you vote, even if you don't want their decisions to affect yours.

I haven't really used day talking at all.. how do you guys think it should be used? :roll:

Here are some hypothetical examples:

You're a tracker, and you tracked your neighbor last night. You found out that they visited no one. In a one-scum game, which we assume we're in right now, that should mean that your target cannot have killed anyone last night. Therefore, he/she must be town, so you could use your day-talking abilities to claim privately to your neighbor, which could make him trust you more.

A confirmed cop has publicly claimed that he has investigated player X, and found out that X is town. Now, both of X's neighbors could claim to X by using their daytalking ability.

No, they were voting you for more than that. You could also explain why you weren't on the wagon yesterday. You're just refusing to respond. +Scum points for Tarballs.

Here's a question for both of you: if one of your neighbours came to you and told you they had a role and what it was, would you believe them? Would you tell them what your role was?

I pretty surely would not outright claim to them, no matter what. And whether I would believe their claim or not is rather impossible to say.

And I'm thirding the request for a massprod. There's some serious lurking going on here.

Oh, so Tarballs has something to hide? Interesting. + scum points for Tarballs.

Why do you have both ODDin and Spinach as neutral?

You could actually give reasons to all of your reads, not just the neutral ones.

Hernz:

Are you still here?

ODDin:

Who do you think is scum?

Asking questions. Minor town points, one of his few posts that isn't scummy to me.

-Tarballs Lurks for 4 days-

I'm not voting Spinach because that'll put him at L-1, if I'm not mistaken (4 to lynch, Locke and Tarballs are both voting him).

After what happened yesterday, I'd say that's somewhat understandable. But why don't you want to put someone on L-1? If you're suspicious about someone, you shouldn't be afraid to vote.

2) This has been brought up by Locke and Fluffy, and they voted Tarballs. He then follows to gently push against Tarballs himself, in a somewhat wishy-washy manner. He's raising a suspicion, and then saying it's probably nothing. It's a classical way to attempt a win-win. When Tarballs questions him, he just says it's nothing, thus not warranting an answer - he didn't really accuse him. However, it did its job in solidifying Fluffy's opinion on Tarballs, which means it's hardly nothing. So, I think Spinach thought it was either him or Tarballs, and attempted to make sure it's gonna be Tarballs.

What do you mean I thought it was either me or tarballs? How could one make that assumption so early in the day? And it could easily be someone besdies me or tarballs for the lynch today. And the only reason I didn't vote because it would be a) Bandwagoning and b) Put Tarballs at L-1.

The same applies here. And bandwagoning isn't automatically a bad thing.

Starbuck was a silencer, so it means that since one of the mafia role's goal was to hamper communication, then wouldn't the goal of the whole mafia be the same thing?

Not necessarily. I think they can choose themselves how they want to approach the game and how to best utilize their roles. And we don't know what the remaining scum's role is.

Tarballs shows that he wants me lynched fast, very scummy. He then points out that bandwagoning isn't bad, also scummy. He then hints that the reaming scum may have a role. Interesting... + scum points for Tarballs.

KittyMo, are you giving up already? :(

And if I've understood correctly, the deadline is on Monday, which is 3 days from now. Luckily it says in the rules that a lynch will happen even if there is no majority at the deadline, but I'd still like to hear everyone's opinions so that you don't get a cheap excuse for tomorrow in case we fail to lynch the last scum off today.

This post just confuses me. The last part. . .It's directed at me, right?

He replaced Claramata, whose only post contained an oddly phrased statement. (#3)

But, other than that, I can't really find anything he does scummy. This statement seems off, though:

Good to see we were spot on with Starbuck.

There he goes again, tapping himself in the back. :D

But, that was apparently a joke, so I'm not too worried.

Read: Neutral (but if I had to go either way, I'd go slight town)

Previously you said you had a slight scum read on me, but now you're not seeing anything odd about my play except that "apparent joke". So what made you change your mind?

And I didn't mean that comment as a joke. I recalled someone called out Locke on day 1 for him patting himself in the back, then saw him do that again at start of day 2. I don't know if it meant that much, but I felt it wouldn't hurt to point it out.

perhaps he hasn't seen your meta?

I believe I already told how Locke seems pro-town in every game and is therefore very difficult to get a read on. And the game that you posted isn't that great of an example, since Locke replaced in so late in the game and didn't get to say very much.

Wondering why Tarballs is asking what makes him town.. that doesn't make sense for a townie to ask. And then about the joke bit: He says it wouldn't hurt to point it out, well I thought it wouldn't hurt to point out the kill. Contradictions. + scum points.

[Spinach]

It's time to decide. ODDin, KittyMo, either hammer me, or Vote Tarballs. It's that simple. I've made my argument, he's made his. Let's go.

[SerialClergyman]

I like your analysis Spinach, and I'm still happy with my vote right now so I'm not going to change.

Can Oddin and KittyMo make a decision?

[Fluffy]

eeks - sorry SerialClergyman's post = Fluffy

SORRY, it's my bf's account - I was reading on his account and forgot to log him off and log myself in.

[Locke Lamora]

Spinach makes some good points, several of which is why Tarballs is going to be at the top of my suspect list if Spinach does flip town, although I think he's reaching way too far with some of them again. The 'something to hide' comment, for instance - even being a vanilla townie is something to hide, because it gives the mafia the ability to narrow down who's a PR. Some of the points are good, but sometimes he blatantly misreps Tarballs' statements and claims almost every single thing he says is scummy, then randomly gives him minor town points for asking a couple of simple questions.

Kitty, you can stop being indecisive now if you like

[ODDin]

Spinach makes an extensive case on Tarballs only after being specifically asked to do so. In this case, while making some decent points, he's also misinterpreting Tarballs' words and attempts to make a scum-tell out of virtually anything at all.
Several things in the case will be brought into consideration tomorrow, and Tarballs isn't getting a free pass or anything like that, but I

vote: Spinach

.

[mykonian]

That seems like the hammer to me.

Sadly, I am going to let you be waiting a little longer, before I end this day, since I am currently short on time

[KittyMo]

Spinach makes some good points, several of which is why Tarballs is going to be at the top of my suspect list if Spinach does flip town, although I think he's reaching way too far with some of them again. The 'something to hide' comment, for instance - even being a vanilla townie is something to hide, because it gives the mafia the ability to narrow down who's a PR. Some of the points are good, but sometimes he blatantly misreps Tarballs' statements and claims almost every single thing he says is scummy, then randomly gives him minor town points for asking a couple of simple questions.

Kitty, you can stop being indecisive now if you like

QFT to the first paragraph.

I'm almost always indecisisive. =o Never having been on a scum-lynching bandwagon kinda does that to you... =/

Also, Fluffy, where have you been all day? >_> I'm going to be looking at you tomorrow. (Assuming Spinach isn't the last scum, of course.)

[Spinach]

Nope not the last scum, just a townie.
Please lynch Tarballs tomorrow, avenge my death? :P