Mini 837 - Stratego Mafia! (Game Over!)

[AlmasterGM]

/confirm, hello everyone.

[AlmasterGM]

Does anyone think it's worthwhile talking about the set-up at this stage? If anyone here isn't familiar with the rankings, definitely check it out now. I have a few thoughts about the way roles could possibly interact and what we could expect, but if others deem it a moot topic, then we can skip it and just go straight to lynching scum.

No, this is super scummy, let's focus on scumhunting instead of setup analysis at this point.

Why is this super scummy? This is a game of the informed versus the uninformed. Unless this game has an extremely twisted setup where the mafia doesn't want to kill the town, the mafia already knows its objective, so discussing it further isn't helping them at all. Moreover, in a game such as stratego, where victory centers around a single piece that can be captured even if the odds are stacked against you, it is highly beneficial for us to try and determine what powers the mafia may have.

What's to say Spy, Bomb or Flag aren't town roles? You're pretty well informed for a town role.

If you've ever played stratego, it wouldn't make much logical sense if those three roles were pro-town for a couple of reasons.

First, there has to be some non-arbitrary deliniation between town and mafia. Simply saying something like "the Colonol is scum and the Major is town" makes no sense. It is thus highly likely that these three pieces, which are distinctly separate from the rest, are anti-town.

Second, the bomb don't sound pro-town, it sound anti-town. It kills everything and hinders your own movement.

Finally, capturing the flag is victory in stratego. This cannot be the win-condition for the mafia - it's too easy. What if we accidentally lynch the flag round one or the mafia get a lucky NK? Is it just game over, too bad? I don't think so, and the only other alternative is that the flag has tons of protective powers around it, which seems overly complicated. It's more likely that the flag is a target for the town, not something we want to protect.

I am still not going to out my case on you until scum can no longer nighttalk. Sorry. You should also wait on claiming till then. It probably involves me claiming as well.

I don't see why everyone is making such a big deal about this. So he wants to wait 72 hours. Fine. We hear the case in 72 hours. Now, if that time passes and this case has suddenly evaporated but the bandwagon is still rolling, that's a different issue. Although, Sajin, I'm a little confused why you didn't just wait the 72 hours in the first place instead of throwing the comment out there.

btw just to get on record; dramonic's 35 is the scummiest thing I've seen in the game so far but I needed to get that Kast vote off my chest

Why?

[AlmasterGM]

I suppose I'll stop speculating on roles since everyone else seems to think it's a bad idea. However, I will respond to this post since Kast is using it as a reason to vote for me.

I agree that if there is a single "Flag" player who mafia is searching for, then there would need to be mechanics in place to protect that player. However, I strongly disagree that this would be impossible or extremely difficult for a moderator to come up with mechanics to do that. I think your claim otherwise is bogus.

This is completely unjustified by anything you posted. I strongly dislike this assumption. If there is a flag in this game, then your post strongly suggests to me that you are anti-town searching for it.

Consider the inverse of your claim logically - if the flag is a pro-town piece which (from flavor) means "game over," this means if the flag dies the town loses. There would have to be a substantial amount of additional rules to prevent this game from being too luck based. The flag would have to be immune to an early lynch of NK. There would then need to be specific paramaters on when the flag COULD be killed. It is just so much easier of the flag is just like the "mafia leader" - an anti-town piece to be captured. That being said, even if you feel my claim is disputable, I fail to see how it's "totally unjustified."

I breadcrumbed because I enjoy the mental stimulation of doing so, and I pointed it out because I saw no reason not to. The odds of finding what it means are ridiculously small.

I find this argument very uncompelling and agree with the other people who also have problems with it.

Kast: Why are you persisting in setup discussion? What pro-town outcome do you foresee it having? Why are you making vague statements like the following wherein you don't even attack anyone specifically?

This is one thing I do find interesting. Everyone else who thinks speculation is bad simply doesn't speculate. Kast, on the other hand, makes a huge deal out of rebutting my claims and arguing why his speculation is correct ... while at the same time saying we shouldn't speculate. Hmm hmmm hmmm.

[AlmasterGM]

It has been 72 hours. All of you are scummy that were probing others for setup speculation while scum could daytalk. There are likely more people on that list that discussed possible setup then scum likely present in the game so the list likely has both foolish town and information gathering scum on it. But I am confident at least some scum resides on said list.

I am confused as to why it is scummy to speculate while scum can daytalk. Obviously, since the scum are able to communicate with eachother, they will have better responses and comments during this phase, but this effects any conversation about anything. Why is it uniquely bad to discuss speculation during the first 72 hours? Also, why did this comment need to wait 72 hours for you to post it? I don't see at all how you only being used to the electronic version of Stratego was such sensitive information that it needed to wait that time.

[AlmasterGM]

2- I view scum daytalk as a huge advantage for when they can do it. It helps scum plan an attack better. I would rather keep any familiarness with any aspect of the game out of the thread during that time. Is it preferable to have 3 days to discuss or more valuable to keep scum from being able to talk about relationships/setup before absolutely necessary?

You're not answering my question. I understand that the scum daytalking is a powerful tool for them. However, this applies to ANY AND ALL discussion that takes place during those 3 days, not just setup speculation and what kinds of stratego you have played exclusively. What makes those two things so special that they have to wait? Or is it your opinion that we should just say nothing at all for the first three days?

[AlmasterGM]

The spy is, numerically speaking, the weakest piece on the board. This means that, in a consecutive set of numbers, the spy will be on the opposite end of the most powerful piece. So, if the Marshall is 10, then the Spy will be 1 (or simply known as "S" with there being no 1). If the Marshall is 1, then the Spy should be 10.

That aside, though, I'm highly suspicious of Debonair Danny DiPietro. He hasn't done anything except make logical, but harmless, responses to other people's posts. Nothing he has said has suggested we go in one direction or another. It's a strong case of lurking but without the obvlurk.

Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro.

[AlmasterGM]

Furthermore, you know this:

Yeah, Hoopla, and I'd be a bloody IDIOT if I claimed Spy, Bomb, or Flag.

What's to say Spy, Bomb or Flag aren't town roles? You're pretty well informed for a town role.

FOS:Gorrad

Explain the complete change in opinion or earn a vote, please.

Seconded.

[AlmasterGM]

I read dramonic as incompetent town. He's running with AlmasterGM's scum-backed theory that bomb/flag/spy are mafia.

Oh yes, because you're 100% sure I'm scum.

If you + one other player on Dramonic's wagon are scum, then Almaster would clearly want to avoid also being on that wagon. Also interesting that AlmasterGM is egging people on to vote Dramonic, but he himself doesn't place a vote.

How am I "egging" people on? I thought that EB had a good point so I seconded it. Since when is agreeing with people a tell?

[AlmasterGM]

DDD = town

Um, why?

P.S. - No need for a prod, I'm present and accounted for.

[AlmasterGM]

Unvote, vote: Sajin

Seriously, this guy needs more attention.

This is a dangerous lynch. If Sajin has a very high number like he hinted at the beginning, we could be taking out an extremely powerful pro-town player. Remember, we still don't know how this number system works.

I'm upset with people pushing dramonic's lynch and being unprepared to lynch a vanilla. It indicates to me that it was scum-driven.

Agreed. Stratego is a game about getting and retaining information. The fact that we just gave away dramonic's number and got nothing in return is a really, really bad thing. Who was the send-to-last person to vote and the first person to unvote even though dramonic did NOTHING in-between his vote and unvote other than claim vanilla town?

Unvote. Vote: Sajin.

[AlmasterGM]

EBWOP: Missed part of my copy/paste from notepad:

However, even if Sajin is a very high number, this doesn't mean he is town. If he's scum, he could be difficult to deal with later (presuming he has a high number of course).

[AlmasterGM]

He's condemning behavior which he engaged in to a more extreme degree than the people he is condemning (calling for dramonic's lynch without actually placing a vote is even worse than the players who joined the wagon then left).

When did I call for dramonic's lynch?

[AlmasterGM]

I still like my Sajin vote. Can someone explain the Synx wagon for me?

Well, they aren't really saying anything.

I'm going to hold my vote where it is. I don't think any progress is really being made right now. We should have a better chance on Day 2 when we have a vague idea of how this game works.

[AlmasterGM]

I'm going to hold my vote where it is. I don't think any progress is really being made right now. We should have a better chance on Day 2 when we have a vague idea of how this game works.

Are you saying we should No Lynch?
[/b]

No. I previously voted Sajin, and I'm keeping that vote. I'm strongly opposed to a no-lynch - I think we definitely need to flip over the roles of two players.

[AlmasterGM]

-Strongly disliking how EB has been just jumping onto other player's ideas and trying to use other players to justify his vote.

-I'll be happy with either AlmasterGM or EB being lynched today. Based on the rules, nobody need compromise on their preferred lynch candidates to accommodate a lynch over no-lynch.

So even if it means no-lynch, you aren't voting for anyone either than EB or myself?

[AlmasterGM]

-Strongly disliking how EB has been just jumping onto other player's ideas and trying to use other players to justify his vote.

-I'll be happy with either AlmasterGM or EB being lynched today. Based on the rules, nobody need compromise on their preferred lynch candidates to accommodate a lynch over no-lynch.

So even if it means no-lynch, you aren't voting for anyone either than EB or myself?

Read the rules post?

Am I reading it correctly when I read that even if we don't hit 7 votes, the person who has the most on the deadline dies?

[AlmasterGM]

Ortolan, what I'm seeing is that people unvoted him based solely on a vanilla claim. I find him no less scummy than I did when I voted for him. Either 1) He's town and scum unvoted him to try and lynch a power role instead 2) He's scum and his buddies are trying to shift as much attention from him as possible, I believe by throwing Sajin under the bus or 3) Town's just ADD. Personally, I think 2's the most likely.

If number 2 is true, why would they vote and then unvote? Doesn't that draw more attention than just not voting at all in the first place?

[AlmasterGM]

Unvote. Vote: Synx.

[AlmasterGM]

Unvote. Vote: Sajin.

[AlmasterGM]

Day one final vote count

Vote Count

dramonic - 3 (Synx, Gorrad, WeyounsLastClone)
AlmasterGM - 1 (

Kast

)
Synx - 2 (ElectricBadger,

Sajin

)

Sajin

- 6 (Hoopla, Vaya, dramonic,

Debonair Danny DiPietro

, AlmasterGM, ortolan)

Not Voting

Vote Almaster

- of my suspects yesterday he seems in the worst position, voted by town who was NK'd and voting on a mislynch.

Yes, because as scum, I love engineering bad positions for myself.

[AlmasterGM]

This game definitely wins the SLOW award.

[AlmasterGM]

Almaster is probably not scum, I targeted him last night because I thought his votes were bandwagon-like.

Mafia edit: I guess he could be scum and have had his partners do the kill

That is if we believe your role. What exactly is it again? You only said Miner and 3 last time.

Even if he tells us, there's no reason he couldn't just be making things up. It's Stratego ... miner = diffuse isn't that big of an extrapolation to make.

[AlmasterGM]

I find it interesting that when dramonic claimed vanilla town everyone ran back, did a re-read, and unvoted, but when Synx made a much more important claim, everyone just took his word for it.

[AlmasterGM]

Vote: Synx.

L-1! L-1!

[AlmasterGM]

Synx, can you explain your spelling error?

What's the point of this? It's not like you are asking him to delve into a complex analysis of his gameplay where he could potentially slip up and give us info. The "explanation" is short, dead simple, and will be the same whether he is town or scum. There is nothing to be gained by letting him explain his error. You either believe it was a mistake or you don't. End of story.

[AlmasterGM]

I would like to hear what he has to say, thanks. There's no need to prejudice his response before he gives it.

It seems to me like you're just looking for a repeat of what happened last round. Accusation --> Excuse --> Retreat.

[AlmasterGM]

Quicklynching someone within three days of day 2 starting without for example a cop guilty, and before they've had a chance to address the reason you're voting them for, is moronic.

Obviously. However, "his excuse" has nothing to do with this. If we aren't lynching, it should be for THAT reason, not because you thought what he said was legitimate.

[AlmasterGM]

I await the reply of everyone else in this game.

[AlmasterGM]

what do you want to know exactly Almaster?

Your thoughts on the game? Who do you trust? Who do you think is scum? Etc.

Also disliking Almaster's general snark with a lack of scumhunting, nor his repeated answering for Synx.

It's not answering for Synx because I haven't actually answered the question that was asked of him. All I am pointing out is that, regardless of what he says, it doesn't matter because the answer is going to be the same either way.

As far as my "general snark" goes, I fail to see how you're doing any better. All you've done is vote for me based on some awful logic that 1) makes no sense and 2) could be applied in multiple ways. You also have yet to respond to my rebuttal. At least I'm making points and following up on them.

[AlmasterGM]

You dismissed any conclusions based on Synx's responses before they were made, which is both nonsensical and completely unhelpful for town in any way. While your assumptions may prove true, I see no reason that town would dismiss any hope for evidence so readily. On the other hand, I think how a question is answered can be as much evidence as the factual statement itself.

OK, Synx has responded. Tell me 1) how his claim was TOTALLY predictable and 2) what evidence we get from what he said.

[AlmasterGM]

I still find Synx quite suspect, but also Almaster. We hadn't had any discussion to speak off, and he already places Synx at L-1.

Vote AlmasterGM.

There isn't going to be much discussion to speak of regardless of what L-X

anyone

is at. Things just aren't moving anywhere. Your post is a partial case-in-point - all you do is call me out based on one move, and say you suspect Synx in a two-line long post. Putting people at L-3 and in other safe zones is just going to slow down things even more.

[AlmasterGM]

Vote: Almaster

Now now, let's not be overeager.

Case in point again.

Don't lynch before I claim.

[AlmasterGM]

(so far it seems that each rank is assigned, so that would invite a counter claim).

I'm not sure if this is an appropriate time to say this, but I don't see the harm, so I'm going to go ahead and do it anyway. This is NOT TRUE. I share the numerical rank of one of the deceased. Given that there are 12 players in the game and 12 pieces in Stratego (2-10, S, B, F), this means that at least one (possibly more) of the pieces from the board game does not exist in this game. It also means we cannot use number claims/counterclaims to exonerate and implicate people.

[AlmasterGM]

That doesn't change my premise, though. Claiming a fake role seems like a bad move. If there were another miner, for instance, they would be able to tell quickly whether the role matched their own

It's not a bad move if multiple players have the same number but not the same role. Seeing as I have the same number as someone who is dead, it's entirely possible that there is another miner in the game, but their role is different than Synx's.

Almaster says he has one of the roles that are dead. Most likely the flag was removed (since in the real game it's instant-win). Unless Charter duplicated roles in a completely arbitrary manner, the only role I can see well being duplicated is the spy. Two trackers on the town team would be pretty unlikely, wouldn't you say?

That's not what I said, so no. Even so, though, like someone else said, there's no reason roles aren't arbitrarily handed out. Numbers clearly were. Why not roles? Saying "no reason to believe otherwise" is a fallacious assumption.

Spy had no numerical rank, so no. Others were both vanilla, although Almaster's phrasing seems to imply he's not (or at least leaves the possibility open). I'm inclined to think this is misinformation to prevent town from counterclaiming as long as he's alive, as I can't see his eagerness to identify his rank serving any other purpose at the moment.

I'm not claiming any role - I'm just saying I share a number. The point of me doing this is that some people seem to be operating under certain presumptions regarding the setup that aren't true (e.g., the Miner has this role, if this person claims this number there can be a counterclaim, etc) I fail to see how this prevents the town from counterclaiming. We can still do that. If anything, it checks back false counterclaims because we know that more than one person can have the same number.

[AlmasterGM]

For one thing, it provides scum with fakeclaims, since according to you any role can be duplicated.

First, I said number not role. Second, fine, don't believe me. You'll find out eventually when someone else flips and proves what I'm saying.

[AlmasterGM]

Don't really have time to make a big post now (huge econ assignment to do ) but ...

1) Don't see the point of a mass claim. We don't know what roles there are, so what stops scum from just making up a role? If everyone else in favor, though, I won't be stubborn.

2) I agree that Hoops or Vaya are probably scum. I would vote Hoops now, but I want to re-read before going L-1.

More tomorrow.

[AlmasterGM]

So, since we're "starting with me," but I'm listed after Hoopla, and I supposed to wait for her to go first or can I just claim?

[AlmasterGM]

I'll make it four votes for Hoops/Vaya starting. I'll go third.

Hoops/Vaya ... what say you?

[AlmasterGM]

5 - Lieutenant.

[AlmasterGM]

I'm so confused right now. I just read the sequence after the massclaim three times and nothing makes sense. Why is Hoopla a bomb? Why does Hoopla HAVE to be a bomb to be scum? Couldn't she just be a SK (which I'm presuming is what we're going for)? Why does the fact that Gorrad is a Miner make all of this true? What happened to Vaya?

Explain please, thanks.

[AlmasterGM]

Hoopla, a bomb is anti-town because I'm town and have a role that's anti-bomb.

Almaster, see above. There's obviously an anti-town bomb because of my role. If Hoopla is NOT a bomb, then there's a fourth anti-town role which is a bomb.

You're still being vague. Why exactly is Hoopla the bomb? EB claimed no number - AKA bomb. Hoopla claimed a NK, and there has yet to be a counterclaim. Given that, explain to me why this scenario doesn't make the most sense out of anything:

Gorrad: Scum Miner
EB: Town Bomb

[AlmasterGM]

I agree.

[AlmasterGM]

I think Hoopla is the SK and either Gorrad or Vaya is scum. One of them is lying - either Vaya is a scum bomb that Gorrad can diffuse, or Gorrad is making up his Miner claim (he probably got the idea from Synx's role).

That being said, I think it's better to take out Hoopla (or whoever the SK is, if new information comes to light) today. With all these power roles (bomb, JOAT, tracker, cop (and Vig, if there's no SK), there's no way there's just a 3-person mafia team - the town would be too good. There has to be some other factor, and it's probably a SK. If we take the SK out tonight, we bring things down to 1 NK, and hopefully then we can utilize the following ...

Claim: I'm a cop. I blew my Night 1 investigation on Kast (TOWN, obviously). Night 2, I checked ortolan and he came up as TOWN, so I believe him when he says he a JOAT. Night 3, if he uses his doctor shield on me, I'll be able to report in the morning on Gorrad. If he comes up as scum, game over. If not, we know he can be trusted, and we'll lynch either Vaya or EB.

Thoughts?

[AlmasterGM]

I have to admit I didn't consider the possibility of a Godfather. It would make sense for there to be one - he'd represent the Flag (this is Stratego Mafia, after all). It'd also make sense given the number of power roles we have on the town side.

What's your plan, Hoopla?

[AlmasterGM]

Why would I have claimed cop if I was scum? Nobody suspected me at all before. There's zero reason for me to invent that claim.

[AlmasterGM]

True, true, true...

I'l go along with the plan if everyone else will.

[AlmasterGM]

I agree with those two setup options.

Even so, though, it doesn't seem like there is any foolproof way for the town to win. Every plan revolves around trusting somebody. What I think we should do, therefore, is all create a trust --> suspect list. We can then create a plan that optimizes trustworthiness against potency (e.g., if we decide Gorrad is the most trustworthy, we'll go with the best plan that doesn't need to verify his role). Here's my list, for example:

ortolan
Gorrad
EB
Hoopla
Vaya

Are we in agreement? I don't think there's any other way to do this.

[AlmasterGM]

Why do you trust ortolan?

I investigated him last night and got he came up town. Granted, he could be a Godfather, but I'm more inclined to trust the read than to ignore it.

[AlmasterGM]

How about this:

1) Lynch Vaya
2) Hoopla Vig ortolan
3) ortolan protects Gorrad.
4) The scum have to target either myself or Hoopla (they can't kill EB, it'll kill them).
5) Gorrad and EB are left in the endgame with either myself or Hoopla.

Personally, I don't think this is the optimal choice because Gorrad's PR isn't as useful as mine, but since people don't trust me as much as Gorrad and there may be a Godfather, it seems to be the best option.

[AlmasterGM]

EB, can we get your opinion on the state of things?

[AlmasterGM]

I don't really see any flaws in ortolan's logic. We can't take a risk. Minimally, even if Hoops isn't the SK, we will be down to 1 NK per night, so we'll have another two rounds to find the final scum.

Are we ready to hammer? If nobody objects, I'll do it.

[AlmasterGM]

And I'm still not sold on Gorrad as town. I see mafia faking a role to out and kill a bomb - a major danger to NK's - as more likely than a town bomb and town miner. I think he assumed the Vig kills were an SK, and as he speculated in public assumed the bomb was the SK. Had this been successful, he would have been cemented as town; if not, as is happening now he could still duck behind the role. I think a real miner would have waited until night to target me, not tried to maneuver a gambit into a lynch.

If Gorrad is scum, then there's two miners on the scumteam - Synx was also a miner. I suppose it's possible, but it seems extremely unlikely as it really waters down the usefulness of the bomb. I do agree with you, though, that Gorrad's way of going about things wasn't very optimal.

[AlmasterGM]

You're assuming his role claim is correct. I don't think it is.

Hmm, good point. You might have said this already, but do you blow up anyone who targets you during the night? Or is it NK + hammers?

[AlmasterGM]

stuff

Your plan, in addition to the flaws Gorrad pointed out, completely ignores statistical probabilities as well. If there is a SK, there's a 100% chance it's Hoopla because she's claiming the kills. This essentially means we've got 50/50 odds if we lynch Hoops, since that's about how sure we are that there's a SK. With the mafia, however, we only 16% chance of hitting on a lynch. This is improved to 25% if we wait until the next day. Lynching Hoopla now, therefore, not only gives us better straight-up odds, but improves our odds of hitting the mafia member the next day.

Vote: Hoopla.

[AlmasterGM]

I tried to investigate Vaya, and it failed. I presume this means I was roleblocked in some way.

[AlmasterGM]

Vote: No Lynch.

I think it's pretty much going to be me vs. Vaya on the last day. Gorrad, what say you on this issue?

(Either that or Gorrad is lying, which I doubt ... Vaya's VT claim seems much more sketchy).

[AlmasterGM]

Almaster, did you get a PM stating your failure or did you receive no PMs last night?

Almaster, on the other hand, I just realized is claiming to have been RB'd. By a SK. Does anyone else take issue with this?

I received a PM telling me my investigation failed. How am I claiming to be roleblocked by the SK? It's obvious their is a mafia roleblocker. That, or some other type of role.

Seriously, though, WTF? This vote on me is extremely suspicious. Why are you voting for me? Statistically, you still want to vote No Lynch - that way, we can determine the identity of either you or Vaya.

[AlmasterGM]

If we NL, the kill will either be me or EB, no question. And the choice will /still/ be between you and Vaya. Considering how sure I am that you're scum, I'd vote while I still have a say.

PS: I love how you know you won't be NK'd.

I'm supposedly suspicious, and I've already been roleblocked, thus limiting my usefulness Why would I be NK'd? Even so, though, I don't care how sure you are. I think it's possible that you're scum and that you're just worried that people will be suspicious when Vaya (or me) gets NK'd and not you. Seriously, for someone who championed "the odds" last round and lost us the Vigilante, you should understand the statistically best play this round.

[AlmasterGM]

You just said yourself that you're unlikely to be NK'd, and Vaya was a lynch candidate for a majority of D2. Any half-decent scum would choose me or EB. Likely EB, as killing me would confirm him.

The PS last post was reaction fishing only.

I don't see why you are so eager to NOT confirm people as town. Even if we're like 99% sure EB is town, there's no reason to give him (or you, or anyone) a free pass.

[AlmasterGM]

I agree with EB. Why don't we just come to a consensus on who we want to lynch D5, then execute the no-lynch and take care of it on D5? Sure, EB will be gone, but if we've agreed today there's really going to be no difference.

The last scum is Vaya. EB and Gorrad's roles interact, so EB can't be lying - he's town. Gorrad could be, but it seems unlikely given that 1) EB's role can have pretty powerful anti-town implications and 2) two scum miners would be odd. I know my role is pro-town, so that leaves me with Vaya.

Vaya is obviously going to say it's me. Gorrad and EB, what do you think?

[AlmasterGM]

P.S. I just considered the fact that Gorrad could be lying about being a miner, but I still think Vaya is way more sketchy and that it makes sense for the Town to have a miner.

[AlmasterGM]

Frankly, Almaster, given that your claim contradicts Sajin's role I'm going to say that you're probably the scum here.

Given that you also share the number of the deceased, I don't see how you can use this as an argument. Do you really think I look more scummy play-wise?

[AlmasterGM]

Why would we decide today? That just informs the scum exactly who not to kill. At least make them guess a little.

It's pretty obvious this is between Vaya and I ... seriously doubt the scum would take out one of us in favor of Gorrad or yourself.

Speaking of which ... where IS Vaya?

[AlmasterGM]

I think somebody made that argument at the very beginning of the game, and the response people agreed with was it's way too predictable. If the setup could be determined just looking at numbers, an early massclaim would solve.

And you still haven't answered my question. Lynching on non-verifable patterns alone seems like a terrible idea.

[AlmasterGM]

the cop claim which doesn't make sense considering how much investigative power that would mean the town would have, if I wasn't sure enough before, I'm certain now that Almaster is scum.

Here are the town roles we have:

Kast, SPY - Tracker
Hoopla, MAJOR - 7 - Town Vigilante
ortolan, SERGEANT - 4 - Jack of all trades
(Gorrad, MINER - 3) - Diffuser
(AlmasterGM, LIEUTENANT - 5) - Cop

Given that we have a Bomb who can blow up our PR's and no protective role, this is NOT that high powered of a town - in fact, it's pretty much a standard setup for Minis. I don't see how you can say there's "too many investigative roles." That's just false.

You are right that we shouldn't lynch based off of a pattern we can't prove alone, but your not cleared by any means because it would be too obvious or we can't prove it either.

You say this, yet this thread is severely lacking any sort of case against me. You and Gorrad are voting for me based on a crappy process of elimination. You haven't showed in any way how I'm scum.

You're wrong that an early massclaim would break the game though because we wouldn't have any way of knowing that all scum pieces counterpart town pieces. Also, if we did somehow eventually figure it out, we wouldn't know which of the duplicate pieces were the scum.

It would be too easy of a theory to test. 1) Everyone claims 2) kill two people with the same number 3) realize one is scum 4) extend the pattern, easy town victory. It's been established: the numbers don't mean anything.

About no lynching, I agree with Gorrad's position 100%. All no lynching would do for us is get our obvious townie killed off. It wouldn't increase our odds of lynching scum any because EB's not even a candidate for being lynched. So I encourage EB to hammer today, assuming that he agrees Almaster is scum.

About no lynching, I agree with EB 100%. There is no reason not to get rid of a player. Gorrad, I no longer trust you. Your unwillingness to go into D5 makes me wonder if maybe you are scum scared of what people will think if you aren't NK'd. Vaya, you have completely blown what I presumed was a town trick to try and get the final mafia to lynch an active EB and cause their death. I don't care how "confirmed" Gorrad/EB are - there's simply no reason we should take a risk.

I maintain my no lynch vote. Unless EB changes his mind, we're going into D5.

[AlmasterGM]

Game over, EB. I'm town.

I'm a little disappointed with the way this game ended. Did any of you even go back and do a re-read of the thread? I suppose I'm biased, but I think Vaya looked way more scummy than I did. I thought the fact that WLC tried to bus to me was a pretty strong town tell in my favor, and I don't see why Vaya hasn't taken heavy criticism for jumping around a lot and lurking. Your focus on reducing the endgame to numbers (e.g., I share a number with the deceased and there's probably not a cop) killed us.

I had a good time, though, so good game to all. Will discuss the setup afterwards.

[AlmasterGM]

God, I seriously can't believe Vaya is going to win. She lurked the ENTIRE GAME.

[AlmasterGM]

I re-read, yeah.

If you think it's Vaya, state your case.

Only if you unvote. I'm not writing a case so Vaya can come in and ninja me minutes afterwards.

If you aren't going to be convinced no matter what, though, just let me know and I won't waste the time.

[AlmasterGM]

Limited access will post sometime this weekend.

[AlmasterGM]

Just did a re-read. The case on Vaya is not that strong. He didn't really do anything relevant the entire beginning of the game, so there's not much to say about that. He jumps on the Synx bandwagon after Synx's mistake becomes obvious, but then again, so did everyone else. The only thing that's really out of place is the two times he flip-flops at the end - 1) he says we no lynch, but then he follows Gorrad and votes for me,2) he jumps back and forth several times on the Hoopla situation. I know Vaya is lying, but I don't have any more proof.

There's been no case on me except for this number theory (which I've responded to), so I've got nothing else to say regarding the situation. EB, just read one more time and then decide. If you have any questions, I'll answer.

Vote: Vaya.

[AlmasterGM]

Good game, everyone. Thanks to charter for being a fantastic mod!