mini 814: OVER!

[mykonian]

Hey,

I'm moving house and have other real life stuff happening, so yes I haven't been here much to post, so to be fair, I think I should request to be replaced out.

Sorry guys. good luck

mod: can I please be replaced out

ok, fluffy, I'll start looking for a replacement for you.

[KittyMo]

So, um, Hernz, what did your reading tell you?

[Tarballs]

Game is stalling... again. Hopefully this post will help.

First, to clarify my opinion about ODDin's slip at the end of day 2: As he hammered Spinach, he was talking about the next day, when the normal thing to say would've been "hopefully this will end the game" or something along those lines. That's really the main reason why it seemed scummy.

After reading everyone in isolation, here are my opinions about the remaining players in the game. First off, DnW/Fluffy. DnW was attacking Starbuck really aggressively at the start of the game, which could've been early distancing, but it seemed like genuine scumhunting to me. DnW then disappeared after about 3 real-life days into the game. Two weeks later Fluffy replaces in and only manages to do one post during day 1, and even that was after the hammer. Fluffy never contributed very much, so it's difficult to judge her play. Lurking isn't pro-town, though, that's for sure.

Henrz is the one who I believe to be town the most. He has been making some good points throughout the game and I especially like his analyses of Locke and MonkeyMan/KittyMo on day 2. Just too bad he never made any analyses about the other players, so how about doing it now?

ODDin has been scumhunting actively and I don't really have any other problems with him except for that slip.

Next up is MonkeyMan/KittyMo. You can read my case on MonkeyMan from day 1, so I don't think I need to add anything there. After replacing in, KittyMo analyses every player, which is a good way to start.

Hernz:

Uhh? Random Vote? Vote: Droid.

This seems awkward.

Spinach:

>:( I find it delicious.

Vote: MonkeyMan576

I hate monkeys

OMGUS random vote? :/

Using random votes to help make your case on players isn't a very good idea in my opinion, as some people tend to make scummy random votes on purpose to get the discussion going.

During day 2:

My top 2 for scum would be Spinach and Henrz, I think. I'd be willing to lynch either one.

During day 3:

Today, I'm drawn to Tarballs, because Spinach wanted us to look at him, and Fluffy, because of his and his predeccessors' interactions with Starbuck.

Why are you not suspicious on Henrz anymore? Why weren't you suspicious of Fluffy yesterday? Also, going after people just because flipped townies told you to is not a good idea. This should be about your own personal opinions, not others'.

perhaps he hasn't seen your meta?

I believe I already told how Locke seems pro-town in every game and is therefore very difficult to get a read on. And the game that you posted isn't that great of an example, since Locke replaced in so late in the game and didn't get to say very much.

You're right. I could've sworn it was someone else that said Locke always seems to be protown, but now that I think about it, it actually was you. I'm really sorry. :/ Disregard that part?

Why so apologetic?

After Locke flipped tracker, I tried to look for a breadcrumb that he might have left about his result from night 1.

Smart thinking! Never occured to me to look for that.

That really seems like buddying.

Mini Case on Fluffy:

Conveniently, that comes right after ODDin and me already declared Fluffy as our top suspect.


Here's everyone in order from scummiest to towniest:
KittyMo
Fluffy
ODDin
Henrz

Vote: KittyMo

[mykonian]

Let's help you getting this game going again: The Mighty MiteyMouse is going to replace Fluffy!

Thank you very much!

[KittyMo]

Hernz:

Uhh? Random Vote? Vote: Droid.

This seems awkward.

Spinach:

>:( I find it delicious.

Vote: MonkeyMan576

I hate monkeys

OMGUS random vote? :/

Using random votes to help make your case on players isn't a very good idea in my opinion, as some people tend to make scummy random votes on purpose to get the discussion going.

Yes, but Hernz and MonkeyMan do not play the game like "some people" do. Also, what is the point of random voting, in your eyes, since anyone who tries to use evidence from the RVS is scummy, according to you?

During day 2:

My top 2 for scum would be Spinach and Henrz, I think. I'd be willing to lynch either one.

During day 3:

Today, I'm drawn to Tarballs, because Spinach wanted us to look at him, and Fluffy, because of his and his predeccessors' interactions with Starbuck.

Why are you not suspicious on Henrz anymore? Why weren't you suspicious of Fluffy yesterday? Also, going after people just because flipped townies told you to is not a good idea. This should be about your own personal opinions, not others'.

I am still slightly suspicious of Hernz, but on further reads, I think most of his mess-ups are nulltells due to being a newer player. I don't think he's squeaky-clean though.

Ummm, I WAS suspicious of Fluffy yesterday. I said she was neutral/slight scum yesterday, and I was the one who said YESTERDAY that I had my eye on Fluffy right before the deadline. Then you and ODDin said you found Fluffy suspicious too. So, accusing *me* of following seems ridiculous.

I never said I was going to lynch you or something just because Spinach told me to. I just am going to take an extra glance at you.

perhaps he hasn't seen your meta?

I believe I already told how Locke seems pro-town in every game and is therefore very difficult to get a read on. And the game that you posted isn't that great of an example, since Locke replaced in so late in the game and didn't get to say very much.

You're right. I could've sworn it was someone else that said Locke always seems to be protown, but now that I think about it, it actually was you. I'm really sorry. :/ Disregard that part?

Why so apologetic?

That's my personality.

After Locke flipped tracker, I tried to look for a breadcrumb that he might have left about his result from night 1.

Smart thinking! Never occured to me to look for that.

That really seems like buddying.

I don't know how to defend myself against this. I tend to get accused of buddying or being buddied when I'm town, but not when I'm scum, though.

Mini Case on Fluffy:

Conveniently, that comes right after ODDin and me already declared Fluffy as our top suspect.

Hahaha. It also happens after I said BEFORE you two said that I found Fluffy suspicious. Also, apparently starting discussion is a scumtell? That was the main point of my case.

I'd like to just say this loud and clear: MonkeyMan as a townie ALWAYS looks scummy as hell. I saw another game with him in it a few days ago, and that's the conclusion I have drawn about his meta. I've never seen him play scum, though.
---------------------------

Yaaaaaaaaaaay MiteyMouse is here! I missed you.

[MiteyMouse]

Hi everyone! It's nice to see some familiar faces here. I'm going to start a read and hopefully get some thoughts up tonight.

[MiteyMouse]

Oh Yay...KittyMo and Henrz! Nice to see you both again!

Does anyone want to give me the coles notes version of the game while I do a quick read?

[KittyMo]

Also, Tarballs:

Here you state that you thought that Locke breadcrumbed that Monkey did not visit Droideka. What changed your mind since then?

If the game were longer, MiteyMouse, I'd give you a summary, but a 14 page read shouldn't be too bad for you.

[KittyMo]

EBWOP:

Dear Mykonian,
ODDin has not posted since the 28th of August.
Hernz has not posted since the 30th of August.
We would appreciate it if you would give out necessary prods and replacements.
Thanks,
KittyMo

[MiteyMouse]

Ah...the self vote. Well Henrz got things going and that is good but, self votes such!

Now the pile onto him was quite interesting. Tarballs, Monkey (Kitty) and then the known Scum Starbuck on that pile. Now this is interesting partly because it was so fast and because it would have seemed to be an easy lynch.

Monkey switching between the accounts is making me crazy!!! Also, with Monkey, that hammer without allowing Fluffy to even comment looks really bad to me...especially so quick after Starbuck got to L-1...looks like opportunistic Scum to me. And then playing dumb after the fact...wow.

Day 2 and I'm really noticing that ODDin is just stalling and stalling. This could have all been real issues but, coming in every few days to post an excuse is not helping anything. He did come in and post content but, there was a lot of active lurking before.

Oh and KittyMo...you are so much better than the first time we played. I'm so happy to see how good you've become! Also, Myk PMed me as well and though it was a bigger read than I normally replace into, I was so flattered that I accepted...and seeing Henrz and Kitty here were icing on the cake!

[KittyMo]

Oh and KittyMo...you are so much better than the first time we played. I'm so happy to see how good you've become! Also, Myk PMed me as well and though it was a bigger read than I normally replace into, I was so flattered that I accepted...and seeing Henrz and Kitty here were icing on the cake!

Yeah, I'm a lot happier with my level of play now. That game taught me a lot. (Note to anyone reading for meta: I played horribly that game, and MiteyMouse didn't play her best either on purpose.)

So, I'm assuming from your read you find ODDin and me most suspicious, and you find Hernz to be town?

[MiteyMouse]

Oh god Kitty....I was so cuddly that game...hehehe! I saw that you are ICing now! You make your first IC very proud!!

Yes.ODDin and yourself are who I'm watching. Nothing of Henrz jumped out on my read. Tarballs only gave off slight pings but, you and Oddin are my main suspect right now.

[KittyMo]

Oh god Kitty....I was so cuddly that game...hehehe! I saw that you are ICing now! You make your first IC very proud!!

Yes.ODDin and yourself are who I'm watching. Nothing of Henrz jumped out on my read. Tarballs only gave off slight pings but, you and Oddin are my main suspect right now.

=] Your cuddling will not work on me again, though. And thanks...I hope I can be a good IC. And I also hope I can end up with you and Albert.

Is there anything I can actually defend myself from, or is it just MonkeyMan being an idiot? Cuz, if you wanna see how MonkeyMan plays town, look right here.

[ODDin]

Hello everyone. I'm very sorry I haven't been around, I had a project to make and was pretty preoccupied with it. I should have announced it but forgot. It's my fault.

I'll catch up later today, I promise!

[ODDin]

Okay then.

1) I like Tarballs' reply to Spinach's accusations. One thing still remains, and that is this issue:

Then Tarballs makes a flawed vote on hernz. Please look at the bolded parts, woot contradictions, + Scum points for reasons explained.

Ok, let's see now. This is what I said, bolded parts by Spinach, red- and orange-colored parts by me:

However! Making a random vote, and not just any vote but a selfvote, 4 pages into the game

doesn't help us progress, so therefore he is obviously stalling the game on purpose

.

On the other hand

,

this will cause people to vote him for that anti-town play,

which quite possibly will help us leave the RVS behind

. He wants us to vote him, so that's exactly what I'm going to do

If you're able to understand the red-colored part, you'll clearly see that there is no contradiction in there.

Yes, there is "on the other hand" there. However, the phrase is essentially "X, but on the other hand, NOT X", from a logical standpoint. The way I see it, there are several options:
a) You were completely clueless as to what the effect of Henrz's act may be. It seemed equally reasonable to you that it would stall the game and that it would quite possibly get the game out of the RVS stage and create more discussion. If this were the case, however, it wouldn't make sense for you to vote based on it, and later claim this to be your opinion. If you had no idea how the thing would unfold, you shouldn't have voted on it.
b) You thought that Henrz TRIED to stall the game, but, in your opinion, his act was doomed to fail because it would in fact stir discussion and get the game out of the RVS. If this were the case, it means you actually believed Henrz was scum - perhaps poor scum, but scum. Then you should've voted for him.
c) You believed the act would, in fact, stir discussion, and believed that this was, in fact, Henrz's aim. Then saying he was trying to stall the game doesn't make any sense.
d) You're scum, and you just said all possible options, hoping that no matter how it would turn out, you end up on the winning side.

2)

I don't know how to defend myself against this. I tend to get accused of buddying or being buddied when I'm town, but not when I'm scum, though.

If you could provide games in which you were town and acted in a similar manner, that would help.

3) Curiously enough, while I am one of MiteyMouse's top suspects, he doesn't say anything regarding my slip, which, until now, was essentially the only thing anyone has said against me.

4) On the subject f my lurking, I agree that it was bad play on my part. My time management skills are pretty much abysmal, and with me being a student, this leads to long lapses of lurking.
In my defence, you can check Open 144, where I played until recently, and was killed last night and flipped town. My pattern of replying there was similar to here: rarely and with much content.
However, you're accusing me of

active

lurking, which is objectively not true. Active lurking implies being around, reading the game, showing presence but doing no actual scumhunting. I, however, simply don't reply for long periods of time, and then come back to post content. This isn't the regular pattern of active lurking, so I would ask you to say why, in your opinion, my lurking was indeed active - what leads you to believe that in the periods I wasn't replying I was, in fact, following the game but chose to avoid saying anything.

[ODDin]

EBWOP:
Messed up the link to the other game. There it is:
Open 144

[KittyMo]

In Response to ODDin:
Town - this game shows off my personality and playstyle pretty well, I think, other than the fact that I'm probably a better scumhunter now since it's a fairly old game.

Scum - I can't really think of a time where I buddied here.

Also, the lack of a post from Tarballs is interesting, since I saw his name pop up in Who is Online, and now it is no longer there.

[mykonian]

EBWOP:

Dear Mykonian,
ODDin has not posted since the 28th of August.
Hernz has not posted since the 30th of August.
We would appreciate it if you would give out necessary prods and replacements.
Thanks,
KittyMo

I prodded them both.

[Tarballs]

Yes, but Hernz and MonkeyMan do not play the game like "some people" do. Also, what is the point of random voting, in your eyes, since anyone who tries to use evidence from the RVS is scummy, according to you?

The point of RVS is to start the discussion. People use different kind of excuses for their random votes, people react to some random votes in different ways, etc. After that, random votes no longer have any meaning. I think referring to them, or using them as "evidence" against other people on day 2 and after is completely useless. I wouldn't necessarily say scummy, but useless.

Ummm, I WAS suspicious of Fluffy yesterday. I said she was neutral/slight scum yesterday, and I was the one who said YESTERDAY that I had my eye on Fluffy right before the deadline. Then you and ODDin said you found Fluffy suspicious too. So, accusing *me* of following seems ridiculous.

I never said I was going to lynch you or something just because Spinach told me to. I just am going to take an extra glance at you.

I have to admit those are good answers, although Spinach asked everyone to

lynch

me, not

look

at me.

Either way,

Unvote

at this point. Need to hear more from MiteyMouse and especially Henrz. I really wouldn't like to have any more replacements.

I'd like to just say this loud and clear: MonkeyMan as a townie ALWAYS looks scummy as hell. I saw another game with him in it a few days ago, and that's the conclusion I have drawn about his meta. I've never seen him play scum, though.

Monkey having a certain town meta isn't that helpful, if we have no idea how he plays as scum. And obviously no one should get a free pass just because they're always scummy.

Also, Tarballs:

Here you state that you thought that Locke breadcrumbed that Monkey did not visit Droideka. What changed your mind since then?

I never even said that I 100% believed it to be a breadcrumb. It could be a fatal mistake to blindly assume that it was one.

Okay then.

1) I like Tarballs' reply to Spinach's accusations. One thing still remains, and that is this issue:

Yes, there is "on the other hand" there. However, the phrase is essentially "X, but on the other hand, NOT X", from a logical standpoint. The way I see it, there are several options:
a) You were completely clueless as to what the effect of Henrz's act may be. It seemed equally reasonable to you that it would stall the game and that it would quite possibly get the game out of the RVS stage and create more discussion. If this were the case, however, it wouldn't make sense for you to vote based on it, and later claim this to be your opinion. If you had no idea how the thing would unfold, you shouldn't have voted on it.
b) You thought that Henrz TRIED to stall the game, but, in your opinion, his act was doomed to fail because it would in fact stir discussion and get the game out of the RVS. If this were the case, it means you actually believed Henrz was scum - perhaps poor scum, but scum. Then you should've voted for him.
c) You believed the act would, in fact, stir discussion, and believed that this was, in fact, Henrz's aim. Then saying he was trying to stall the game doesn't make any sense.
d) You're scum, and you just said all possible options, hoping that no matter how it would turn out, you end up on the winning side.

I'd say that closest to the correct answer is C. My thought process was that Hernz's selfvote could objectively be seen as stalling the game, but I assumed it would in fact do the opposite, as some people would surely go berserk about the fact that he selfvoted.

Talking about an ongoing game isn't a very good idea, by the way. Even if you've been killed in it, you still shouldn't talk about it until the whole game is finished.

Also, the lack of a post from Tarballs is interesting, since I saw his name pop up in Who is Online, and now it is no longer there.

I was writing this post, tried posting it, but the site didn't let me to. Went away for about an hour, now returned to see if it's working.

[ODDin]

Well, in your other town game I see one case which may be seen as buddying:

Porochaz has been a good IC, in my eyes. His approach is interesting to me; in my last game, both ICs were scum. One of them was just about the friendliest person I've ever seen online (they were overdoing it a bit because they were scum, though). However, your style isn't bad; I think it's important for newbies to learn to think for themselves ASAP. I had that problem, and now that I've gotten past that for the most part, I am a way better player. Anyways, I'm sorry you're most likely going to die tonight, since you are a great help to the town, in my eyes.

I don't quite understand if his role as a doc was discovered at that point or not.
Even if it was, though, this is the same all-too-friendly tone you're using here, so this does speak in your favour in this regard.

[ODDin]

(The last post addressed Kitty.)

@Tarballs:
I don't think anyone but you thought that Henrz was attempting to stall the game, or that his actions would stall the game. He himself stated the exact opposite several times. People either agreed with him, or accused him because of self-voting, not because they thought his actions will stall the game. So, I really can't see how you could think that his actions can be seen as an attempt to stall the game. I mean, really, in what scenario would his self-vote stall the game?

As for my other game: well, I did only say what can be seen by simply reading the game. I believe it's fairly standard to check one's lurking across one's other ongoing games and compare posting patterns to see if it's active lurking or just lurking.

[KittyMo]

EBWOP:

Dear Mykonian,
ODDin has not posted since the 28th of August.
Hernz has not posted since the 30th of August.
We would appreciate it if you would give out necessary prods and replacements.
Thanks,
KittyMo

I prodded them both.

Thank you. <3

Yes, but Hernz and MonkeyMan do not play the game like "some people" do. Also, what is the point of random voting, in your eyes, since anyone who tries to use evidence from the RVS is scummy, according to you?

The point of RVS is to start the discussion. People use different kind of excuses for their random votes, people react to some random votes in different ways, etc. After that, random votes no longer have any meaning. I think referring to them, or using them as "evidence" against other people on day 2 and after is completely useless. I wouldn't necessarily say scummy, but useless.

See, my opinion differs there. Akward-sounding random votes heighten chances of being scum, in my experience. However, I would agree that the main point of the RVS is to start discussion.

Ummm, I WAS suspicious of Fluffy yesterday. I said she was neutral/slight scum yesterday, and I was the one who said YESTERDAY that I had my eye on Fluffy right before the deadline. Then you and ODDin said you found Fluffy suspicious too. So, accusing *me* of following seems ridiculous.

I never said I was going to lynch you or something just because Spinach told me to. I just am going to take an extra glance at you.

I have to admit those are good answers, although Spinach asked everyone to

lynch

me, not

look

at me.

Either way,

Unvote

at this point. Need to hear more from MiteyMouse and especially Henrz. I really wouldn't like to have any more replacements.

Naaaah, I'm not planning on blindingly lynching you. That would indeed be stupid.

Hernz and MiteyMouse aren't exactly the king and queen of providing content, so it may be a while. Hernz was prodded, though, so hopefully content/a replacement is coming.

I'd like to just say this loud and clear: MonkeyMan as a townie ALWAYS looks scummy as hell. I saw another game with him in it a few days ago, and that's the conclusion I have drawn about his meta. I've never seen him play scum, though.

Monkey having a certain town meta isn't that helpful, if we have no idea how he plays as scum. And obviously no one should get a free pass just because they're always scummy.

I'm not asking you to give him a free pass. I just wanted to put that out there as perspective.

Also, Tarballs:

Here you state that you thought that Locke breadcrumbed that Monkey did not visit Droideka. What changed your mind since then?

I never even said that I 100% believed it to be a breadcrumb. It could be a fatal mistake to blindly assume that it was one.

Just making sure. It seemed like you were ignoring points addressed earlier that made me more likely town when you were originally making the attack.

Also, the lack of a post from Tarballs is interesting, since I saw his name pop up in Who is Online, and now it is no longer there.

I was writing this post, tried posting it, but the site didn't let me to. Went away for about an hour, now returned to see if it's working.

Good. Lurkers are laaaame.

Well, in your other town game I see one case which may be seen as buddying:

Porochaz has been a good IC, in my eyes. His approach is interesting to me; in my last game, both ICs were scum. One of them was just about the friendliest person I've ever seen online (they were overdoing it a bit because they were scum, though). However, your style isn't bad; I think it's important for newbies to learn to think for themselves ASAP. I had that problem, and now that I've gotten past that for the most part, I am a way better player. Anyways, I'm sorry you're most likely going to die tonight, since you are a great help to the town, in my eyes.

I don't quite understand if his role as a doc was discovered at that point or not.
Even if it was, though, this is the same all-too-friendly tone you're using here, so this does speak in your favour in this regard.

He was 99.9% confirmed as doc at that point. But, yes, I like to be nice to people, which can come across as buddying. =]

[MiteyMouse]

Kitty...is that me that you are talking about in the last quote above? The part about both ICs in your last game?

[KittyMo]

Kitty...is that me that you are talking about in the last quote above? The part about both ICs in your last game?

Mhmm.

[MiteyMouse]

Oh Kitty...that may be the sweetest thing said about me in a game. I wish I had have caught it sooner to thank you...that is a lovely thing to say. HUGS

Wow...is that buddying? I have to side with Kitty a bit here. There is nothing wrong with being nice in games and I try to keep up being as nice as possible in them. This can be a really heated game but, it is a game and hurt feelings over a game suck and really rip the fun out of it.