Newbie 841 - Game over!

[havingfitz]

Epic Ninja.... Glad this is finally open. Random voting stage?!?!?!?

Vote: havingfitz

Because he was the last one to confirm.

Hey! I was a last second replacement.

Vote: Deathnote

...for no good reason (yet)

[havingfitz]

Also, a random question aimed more at the newbies, how much experience have you at this type of mafia (forum-based)?

This is my 2nd game ever. Talked into trying Mafia by my son (who is somewhat obssessed by it). First game went to the scum. I was townie and lynched on Night two.

Still too much random chat going on in here to form any useful opinions IMO.

Unvote

[havingfitz]

@havingfitz:

This is my 2nd game ever. Talked into trying Mafia by my son (who is somewhat obssessed by it).

What is your impression of your son's taste in games??? xD

In regards to Mafia I'm still undecided.


This game hasn't really progressed that much so no one has stood out as suspicious to me yet.

[havingfitz]

Folks...I'll be V/LA until Wednesday night.

[havingfitz]

Folks...I'll be V/LA until Wednesday night.

Disregard V/LA...work trip averted.

[havingfitz]

OK...spent a good bit of the day digesting posts up till now. Have a few suspects but I want to go over my notes one more time before I give my thoughts. Almost 1230 am here so now would not be a good time to give my thoughts....zzzzzzzzz.

[havingfitz]

Ok all...I apologize for my lack of input but as someone new to Mafia perhaps it takes me a bit longer to formulate suspicions. FYI...unless I am v/LA I check in at least a few times everyday. I may not comment on what has been said if it doesn't pertain to me or if I don't see a need but I am trying to keep tabs of what is going on. Admittedly that sounds like/is lurking, but that's how my first two games have started out. I became more active end of Day 1 and Day 2 before I was night-lynched.

I do not suspect anyone strongly enough yet to cast a vote on them. Despite the points earlier against using FoS...I prefer them to votes as I don't want to bandwagon anyone and I don't want to get anyone who may be townie close enough to lynching to give mafia a chance to finish things off. A perfect example of which occurred at the end of my first game.

Pardon the abbreviations but I prefer using them to entire names. So far the people I am primarily looking at are TC, OMG, and PM. I'm also a bit suspicious of MM and RR..strictly because of their inactivity (I realize that is hypocritical but I can't be suspicious of myself). Though...I did think RR's comments in post 80 were well thought out. I was a bit suspicious early on of DN for putting TC at L-2 but have not seen anything from him since that point to raise my suspicions.

Slight suspicions towards TC: TC has made about a 3rd of the posts. Based on her preponderance of posts I think she is, intentionally or not, steering the gameplay a bit. I also thought calling out DN for making a quick unvote when she was nearing a quicklynch, when she had in fact just warned everyone that she was getting close to a quicklynch, was suspicious. At first I thought her suspicions towards PM for inferring he was townie were misplaced as well but after further thought I can see her point.

Suspicions towards OMG: For reasons everyone else has already brought to my attention..I do suspect OMG. He seemed to be fairly erratic early with his votes/FOS's, his efforts to appease his accusers, and then taking a step back.

Suspicions towards PM: I found it odd for an IC to throw out the inference that they were townie. Why bother when when you surely realize that townies would have no way of knowing you were truthful until you were lynched or the game was over. I also found it suspicious for you to explain how you were taking a sit-back attitude to this game as you get a read on others but then just over an hour later you denounce people for sitting back. I also thought your "pile on the votes" request was a bit bloodthirsty.

That's it for now. I may be completely off the mark but it's what is on my mind. I will try to comment more as Day 1 continues to draw near an end.

[havingfitz]

@havingfitz:
If you had to pick one person to lynch right now, who would it be?

If I

had

to pick right now my top three would be:

1. OMGLyncher
.
.
2. Pablo Molinero
.
.
.
.
3. Tororingu-chan

[havingfitz]

Heh, while I do admit that my "playstyle" sequence posts looks odd (what was I thinking?!), you have to ask yourself if that odd behavior=scummy. I was going to ride out the next few days because I thought the town was going to be more active than it is. When it was apparent we have quite a few people here semi-lurking, I took it upon myself to push the town forward. Believe me: Quiet towns = Dead towns.

And yes, guess what, I STILL want people to pile on some votes. Anyone, anywhere: it is the #1 guaranteed way to spark a discussion.

I think you're looking at all the wrong reasons with your # 2 and 3, fitz. It appears to me that you're marking the 2 most active (content-wise) players simply because there's a lot of material to go off of with us. I'd be more concerned with the people NOT talking.

I still have my suspicions on you for the reasons I gave. It is possible my suspicions of you and TC are due to more material to filter suspicions from but I guess that's a byproduct of being a frequent poster. I have not ruled out anyone...including the less frequent posters...I just don't have any thing to key on yet other than the fact they don't post much.

Like I said before though...the only person close to getting a vote for me at the moment would be OMG and even then I would need to look over his posts again.

[havingfitz]

We are not on a roll.

[havingfitz]

Mafia_Failure hasn't posted since Tuesday morning. They stated they had started another game but that is no reason to bail on this one. OMG hasn't posted since last Wednesday. Can the MOD please prod vigorously (or replace)?

I realize there are other players besides them to focus on but as we wait for OMG to participate we are stagnating. If it wasn't going to put OMG at L-1, which from my last game seems to get a lot of negative attention, I would do so. Half for the current suspicions on them and half for OMGUS for being so absent.

Mafia Failure hasn't really been much of a participant so either they are trying to lie seriously under the radar or they have skipped town.

In addition to my suspicions mentioned earlier...I am starting to look at MiteyMouse more for these reasons:

1. I don't understand his suspicions towards DN and TC... (@Miteymouse...can you explain?)
2. Claims to have quite a lot of experience has been very inactive and not provided much value (sorry that sounds worse than I intend it to be).
3. For the minor reason of stating he would not take off his random vote from Roo unless he had something better to vote for....and then took his vote off Roo right after Roo wished him a Happy Scumday. Coincidence...trying to build a favorable relationship with Roo?

All conjecture but then again most of this game is


For what it's worth...here is a post count of everyone other than the Mod and their percentage of the total non-Mod posts:


Tororingu_chan........34.....0.27
DeathNote...............18.....0.14
PaltryExcuse............13.....0.10
ronnieroo................12.....0.10
havingfitz................11.....0.09
Mafia_failure...........11.....0.09
Pablo Molinero........11.....0.09
MiteyMouse..............9.....0.07
OMGLyncher............7.....0.06

[havingfitz]

@havingfitz: Are you saying you're 'looking' at Mitey as a possible mafia (aka lynch) or just that he hasn't been clear in his intentions?

Well I'm looking at everyone as a possible mafia but for some I'm not seeing much if any. I'm just pointing out a few interesting observations IMO regarding Mitey. The lack of anything else going on has given a bit of time to do some nitpicking.

Also...with Vel being out of pocket around the first of Oct I'm crossing my fingers we get to the next day sooner than later. I know that sounds bad but this game is creeping along enough as it is.

[havingfitz]

Sorry Mitey for the ‘he’ references....I will try to be more gender accurate in the future, as apparently you should be too. Like I said...your unvote was a minor nitpick on my part but it was a noticed contradiction.

I don’t like replacements either...especially when they are for someone I suspect to be scummy. As I don’t have any suspicions of note vs. MafiaFailure I don’t think a replacement for him would be the worst thing. On the other hand, I do think a replacement on OMG would suck. Even if the replacement was active and coherent I would still have difficulty getting past the fact the person he replaced (OMG) had given me reason to suspect that combined “OMG & replacement” position. I am definitely not a fan of no-lynching as I think the only ones a no-lynch helps is mafia, as they essentially get a free Day one pass and get to deplete the townies by one at no risk. It also robs the rest of us to opportunity to analyze the votes that were cast.

I know putting someone at L-1 is usually seen as a bad thing but I think the current situation in our game, i.e. we seem to be stuck in neutral save a handful of players with OMG being viewed as the roadblock, warrants action. OMG has produced the most evidence for people to suspect him (either in initial actions or his defense and subsequent withdrawal) and in the interests of 1.) progressing the game, 2.) acting on the suspicions he has raised, and 3.) reducing the prospects of a replacement player by at least one, I

Vote: OMGLyncher

. If anyone else wants to moves things forward...now is your chance.

Note...as I read this post back to myself before submitting it I thought how I would view the person who potentially would place a 5th and deciding vote on OMG. I would have a hard time placing suspicions on the 5th vote on the basis of that vote itself. If I already had my doubts about a player those doubts would remain, but a 5th vote in this instance would not increase my suspicions. And while that sentiment would appear to take away some of the value earned in analyzing votes, on the chance we do get it right I think the value is still there. Realistically we were moving in the direction of an OMG lynch anyway. This just gets us there a bit quicker without the added confusion (for me at least) that the replacement of a player with the preponderance of suspicions would introduce.

Pardon the long rambling post.

[havingfitz]

Since the timing of my post has come into question I’ll try to explain it. The timing of my vote is based on a few things. 1.) I’m an impatient person. If everyone was actively participating I would be in no hurry to end the first day. 2.) Despite urging Vel to prod OMG (and MF)…the prospects of a replacement whom I would still suspect based on the suspicions raised by OMG would IMO distract others (myself at least) from trying to refine their reads on the players who have been here from the start. I don’t think two weeks into the game is a quicklynch…especially when OMG has been the scum focus of the game and has had votes on him for most of the game.

That said, havingfitz's current post/vote comes at a very bizarre time, in my opinion. OMGLyncher is very clearly AWOL and unable to currently defend himself AND clearly in need of a replacement, (which I'm sure VRK will get in no time once OMG misses his prod), and only then does havingfitz pops in with a vote and post encouraging the town to close this day out ("I won't find vote #5 scummy"), before a defense for OMG can be made. I hate replacements as much as the next guy, but to axe a player while gone without allowing them to retort... it

screams

scummy to me.

Yeah, I don't like OMG being at L-1, yet.

unvote, vote: havingfitz

OMG did defend himself and his weak defense is one of the things being held against him. Weren’t you the one who encouraged us to pile on the votes?

I do have to agree with you Pablo on the timing of Havingfitz's vote. HF...why did you feel the need to vote for a player that is missing and will probably be replaced at this time?

For the reasons at the beginning of this post.

The timing of your vote, havingfitz, really is odd. The thing that scares me more is the fact that you're inviting us to vote out OMG and stating

no consequences or suspicions

from yourself. In that situation if someone threw on a 5th vote I would think them reckless and scummy. It reeks of a quicklynch now that we've waited for many days waiting for an OMG response.

I agree that the L-1 and 5th votes are actions that warrant suspicion. I tried to preface my vote with my reasoning as best that I could. After re-reading my vote post before I submitted it...I could not consider a potential 5th vote after mine as suspicious without being a total hypocrite. Which I try not to do. I've had OMG as my main suspect since last week...as have others. I don't look forward to my main suspect being replaced. I gave my thoughts on it being a quicklynch above…I don’t think it would be one.

BTW...I should be able to get another post or two in before tomorrow evening (UK time) but

I will be V/LA tomorrow night and all day Thursday

.

[havingfitz]

All in all I still am leaning towards a OMG / his replacement lynch, as his actions have just screamed scummy throughout. The rampant voting and the like could be perceived as scummy, but his lackluster defense and subsequent disappearance is what made the case against him legit.

I don’t think two weeks into the game is a quicklynch…especially when OMG has been the scum focus of the game and has had votes on him for most of the game.

What I meant was, now that he has stopped posting for 3 / 4 days and hasn't posted, I was waiting for a response. And then the 4th vote comes on and you encourage us to put the nail on the coffin, like a "quick, lynch that guy". I think what happened was suspicious, but all in all it more raised my eyebrows than convinced me of your guilt. Your comments have provided a large portion of recent activity and my gut is leaning towards you wanting to move things along.

Yesterday was day 6 of OMG AWOL. His limited body of evidence was enough to make him the most suspicious (to many) over the past week. If he had not disappeared and had tried to clarify his posts and opinions I might feel differently about him...but he hasn't. While the pace of the game has picked up a bit lately that's because we have focused in large part on OMG's absence and the reads people are getting from those discussions (ex. the timing of my recent vote). While a large part of my last few days posting has been based on a desire to move things along...it is also with the most likely scum candidate at the moment in mind and not having to deal with his replacement and the replacement's efforts to remove the scum stain left by OMG (which I would have a hard time accepting).

Hmmm~~ I find it odd that havingfitz seems to think that OMGLyncher is guaranteed scum and would rather lynch him now rather than wait for a replacement~ >_<;

Yet at this point in time I would still prefer an OMGLyncher lynch.... havingfitz rushing into things only shows that havingfitz is impatient, not that he is scum... ^_^

I can be impatient. I can't guarantee anyone is scum...OMG is just the highest on my list and coupled with his absence and potential replacement I don't think the value in waiting for a replacement...and extending what might end up happening anyway (an OMG/replacement lynch) is worth the wait. Especially if we wait until the Oct 1st to vote...then Vel is v/LA until the 5th and we delay things even further (and potentially lose momentum/interest). I'm hopeful of getting Day two started (with me in it) before Vel is out of pocket in Oct. If that means waiting 4 or 5 more days...fine. If the consensus is to wait until the 1st...so be it. I'm just trying to keep the game active and progressing (while voting out the most likely scum at the same time).

[havingfitz]

I'll catch up tomorrow, Japan-time... I need to sleep. It's 12:13 AM, and I'm wiped.

I thought you learned your lesson in my last (& first...816) game. Always make your analysis post first. You did the same thing in that game...showed up way late Japan time...said you'd have a read and get back to us. Then you were lynched to end the game before you had a chance to speak.

On a serious note, now that OMG has been replaced...

Unvote RayFrost

and

FoS RayFrost

.

I stand by my earlier comments regarding a replacement for someone I had the bulk of my suspicions aimed at but now that the replacement has taken place I'm resigned/willing to hear what a more active experienced player can make of what OMG started.

See what I find funny about HF thinking that Ray/OMG is guaranteed Scum is that it smels of PIS (perfect infrmation syndrome). What I find funnier is that you point this out and then defend him T-Chan.

vote HavingFitz
FOS T-Chan

MM...nowhere do I make any reference to OMG being guaranteed scum. He was #1 on my list last week...as he was for a few others...but my suspicions on him were not the only reasons for my vote on him (as I have explained in detail). Don't put words in my mouth to justify your attempt to shift negative sentiment my way. I would focus more on the content of your posts. For someone with as much experience as you and so willing to help the IC...your posts don't have a lot of meat to them.

Do you have any other reasons to suspect me besides your faulty accusation that I think OMG was guaranteed scum?

[havingfitz]

I think it's interesting that havingfitz immediately downgrades to a FoS after a real life person came along. Not only that, but the real-live person hasn't even posted a proper defense or response yet. Where did the gung-ho behavior go? What about keeping pressure on and making replacements answer for with their predecessor did? I'm fine where my vote is right now on havingfitz, who hasn't helped himself one bit with his recent actions, but I'd definitely like to see how Ray responds.

I was gung ho until the vote on OMG went from L-1 to L-2 and the town consensus seemed to favor waiting. I gave my sentiment following OMG's removal:

On a serious note, now that OMG has been replaced...

Unvote RayFrost

and

FoS RayFrost

.

I stand by my earlier comments regarding a replacement for someone I had the bulk of my suspicions aimed at but

now that the replacement has taken place I'm resigned/willing to hear what a more active experienced player can make of what OMG started.

I do not have anything against RayFrost and have shelved my impatience...though I still am suspicious of his position (thanks to OMG's fine work) and look forward to hearing from him as well.

@ Pablo and Mitey. You were & are both high on my scum list. I had expressed suspicions towards both of you prior to my vote on OMG whereas neither of you had indicated any suspicions towards me. In fact...regarding my vote...you Pablo placed the 1st vote on OMG and in fact singled out me in your encouragement to everyone to vote...shortly after you urged us to "pile on the votes". Now I'm #1 on your list. Why the sudden change of heart and why are the two of you now only focused on me? I think you are both going out of your way to divert negative attention onto me (aka away from yourselves).

Do the two of you have any other suspects?

In the interest of fair play, and for reasons already mentioned numerous times, here are my top three...in no particular order:

Pablo_M
RayFrost (via OMG)
MiteyMouse

[havingfitz]

H-Fitz...I am suspicious of you right now.

Really? Thanks for clarifying that. I wasn't sure what you meant by the vote you currently have placed on me

T-Chan, you defend H-Fitz and them me...why?

I'm not sure why you're still asking me... @_@;; I said I defend people who I do not believe to be scum... is there something that's not clear??

I don't recall defending you, however... >_<

I wondered the same thing. I went back to see where you had defended MM and couldn't find anything. MM is just throwing comments out with little or no value in them. As if to act engaged but not really contributing much. If anyone has looked over MM's posts I would like to know if they see anything other than mindless fluff.

@MM...you haven't answered two questions from me and one from DN.

Are you paying attention? <question #4

Mod...can we get a vote count?

[havingfitz]

magical kangaRoo - buddying up to OMGl, very poor defense constituting "he's a newbie!" I don't approve of the defense, and it seems like an attempt to seem pro-town when OMGl flips town and, thus, avoid suspicion. This is supported by the fact the kangaRoo has not made even a moderately decent defense of him, and the defense made is half assed.

Just checking on something...... you are suspicious of RonnieRoo because she defended OMGLyncher (you), who is town?? o_O;;

When did it start being scummy to defend town?? x_x;

Good observation.

RayFrost hassn't done enough sine he replaced in to change my mind.

I have low scum reads on all the people voting for RF while my top three suspects are sending their votes elsewhere. Seems like my odds (assuming my 'gut' is right) of hitting scum are decent.

Vote RayFrost

Good to see you again and maybe my next game you'll be in it from the start and not replace the biggest target.

[havingfitz]

That sucked. Two of my top three suspects turn out to be town. Obviously any gut feel/intuition I've got needs re-adjusted.

havingfitz havingfitz havingfitz havingfitz havingfitz.
Huge surprise there. The way he handled the last week before dropping the hammer was incredibly scummy. Hopefully I'll find a break in homework (which I'm currently doing) sometime this week to give a longer post why and drop my vote on him.

Pablo...your gameplay is not what I would have expected from an IC:

- You have had limited involvement...fewest posts of anyone left in the game..even ABR (and RayFrost before he was lynched!).
- You have repeated the same mantra over (post 142) and over (post 165) and over (post 236) [i.e. Fitz' actions towards OMG and L-1, and hammer vote are suspicious] while ignoring my explanation of my activities.
- You have been hypocritical...taking one position and then denouncing others when they follow suite/recommendation (posts 70, 91, 104, 110), and
- You ignore questions (posts 148 & 171).

In summary...You are lying low, avoiding any input of value, and ignoring questions to you and defenses to your repeated/repetitive allegations. All of these points are based on fact and I find your actions scummy.

Vote: Pablo Marinero

That said...I now need to take a closer look at everyone else as my suspicions towards OMG and MM were wrong. At least my odds of hitting scum have improved. From 1:4 to 1:3.

@Havingfitz: You put a vote on OMG to make him L-1, and encouraged others to vote before replacements (considering your distaste for them). Why was it once Ray 'arrived' the time to wait for OMG/Ray a chance to talk?

Please see post 171. I basically answer the same line of questioning from Pablo.

[havingfitz]

@Havingfitz: You put a vote on OMG to make him L-1, and encouraged others to vote before replacements (considering your distaste for them). Why was it once Ray 'arrived' the time to wait for OMG/Ray a chance to talk?

Please see post 171. I basically answer the same line of questioning from Pablo.

Which was:

I was gung ho until the vote on OMG went from L-1 to L-2 and the town consensus seemed to favor waiting.

That doesn't make your intentions clear at all for me. If the town doesn't want him lynched, they'll respond in kind. It seems to me as though you shied away from attack and hid behind 'what the town wants'. From what I understand, it was the 'what the town wanted' that convinced you.

I expanded further in post 171 here:

On a serious note, now that OMG has been replaced...

Unvote RayFrost

and

FoS RayFrost

.

I stand by my earlier comments regarding a replacement for someone I had the bulk of my suspicions aimed at but

now that the replacement has taken place I'm resigned/willing to hear what a more active experienced player can make of what OMG started.

I do not have anything against RayFrost and have shelved my impatience...though I still am suspicious of his position (thanks to OMG's fine work) and look forward to hearing from him as well.

I wasn't shying away...when the votes for OMG were getting fewer I was basically resigned to the fact he wasn't going anywhere (at least before a replacement was made) and once that replacement

was

made, it was only common courtesy to let the replacement have their say.

[havingfitz]

@Fitz: If you could line up exactly what parts of Pablo's posts you see as hypocritical it would be much more clear for me.

Uh...Ok.

Post 64 -

I'm just riding out the first few pages so I can get a good read on everyone. Then the scum hunting will commence.

Not going to post much and essentially lurk for awhile. Then once he has a good read the scumhunting will begin.

Post 70 -

Vote: OMGLyncher

The reasons are two-fold. Firstly,... Secondly, he challenges a few idea on page 2, but when people come in to argue against him, he just sort of shuts down instead of pushing back.

He hasn't posted anything since then and I feel like he's trying to stay out of sight after ruffling a few feathers.

Votes are our weapons, kiddies. If we sit back and look for people doing things scummy *cough*havingfitz*cough, you'll get NOWHERE and the game will die and/or get taken over by the scum. You have to be proactive and challenge people.

In post 70 he denounces people from doing what he just stated he was going to do

<post 64+70 = hypocrisy>

and makes a point of singling out me in regards to sitting back. Use your votes, be proactive and challenge people he says. Ok. He also votes for OMG and uses "He hasn't posted anything since then and I feel like he's trying to stay out of sight after ruffling a few feathers" as one of his reasons for his vote.

Post 91 -

...let's pile on the votes!

Ok.

Post 104 -

This town is way too tentative for it's own good. I'm still cool with my vote on OMGLyncher.

Town, in general, don't be afraid to use your votes as weapons. At this point, you're not going to lynch someone simply by voting for them once. Nothing gets someone's attention like voting for them.

Ok...don't be tentative and use your votes. You said that already but it still sounds like good advice.

Post 110 -

Believe me: Quiet towns = Dead towns.

And yes, guess what, I STILL want people to pile on some votes. Anyone, anywhere: it is the #1 guaranteed way to spark a discussion.

I think you're looking at all the wrong reasons with your # 2 and 3, fitz. It appears to me that you're marking the 2 most active (content-wise) players simply because there's a lot of material to go off of with us. I'd be more concerned with the people NOT talking.

Ok...I think I get it now. Be active and vote. Got it.

Note: at this point the two most active players were TC and DN. Pablo's 10 prior posts were within one or two posts of everyone else's in the game. Trying to divert attention from himself as one of the two most active players (which he wasn't) and steer attentions to the less active players, of whom he was actually right in line with and is now the leader of,

=hypocrisy IMO

Post 134 -

I dislike playing against replacements

Noted.

Post 142 -

Replacements definitely will have to answer for everything their predecessor was responsible before. I would hate for scum to get off the hook merely because they're a new player in the game.

That said, havingfitz's current post/vote comes at a very bizarre time, in my opinion. OMGLyncher is very clearly AWOL and unable to currently defend himself AND clearly in need of a replacement, (which I'm sure VRK will get in no time once OMG misses his prod), and only then does havingfitz pops in with a vote and post encouraging the town to close this day out ("I won't find vote #5 scummy"), before a defense for OMG can made. I hate replacements as much as the next guy, but to axe a player while gone without allowing them to retort... it screams scummy to me.

Yeah, I don't like OMG being at L-1, yet.

unvote, vote: havingfitz

Huh? I'm trying to be more active in the game. I give my reasons for thinking OMG is the scummiest person (whom you have been focusing on up to this point as well) and vote for him. In your limited number of posts you have urged activity (and used the lack of it as a reason to suspect OMG), prompted us to cast votes, stated your dislike of replacements, and cast suspicions towards OMG. In this one post you use basically all of these things you have espoused to shift suspicions towards me and change your vote from OMG to me. That IMO is

several examples of hypocrisy

lumped into one post.

Post 165 -

Sorry about not being around so much this week. I think it's interesting that havingfitz immediately downgrades to a FoS after a real life person came along. Not only that, but the real-live person hasn't even posted a proper defense or response yet. Where did the gung-ho behavior go? What about keeping pressure on and making replacements answer for with their predecessor did? I'm fine where my vote is right now on havingfitz, who hasn't helped himself one bit with his recent actions, but I'd definitely like to see how Ray responds.

Pablo, who doesn't like replacements and wants people to vote and be active, denounces my downgrading of my vote on RayFrost (which I have explained in detail was to allow him (RF) to state his case) and looks forward to seeing how Ray responds. ? Isn't this what I am trying to achieve as well?

<=Hypocrisy>

In summary....Pablo has: urged us to be active, to pile on votes, stated his dislike of replacements, used OMG's lack of activity as a reason to suspect OMG, and been willing to hear OMGs replacement state his case

and hypocritically,

Pablo has been: the least active on the board, vehemently objected to my vote on his main suspect (OMG), and criticized my willingness (however reluctant it may have been) to allow OMG's replacement to have his say in the very same post where he (Pablo) announces he is looking forward to hearing OMG's replacement's response as well. And then Pablo disappears until Ray is gone.

A lot of hypocrisy and suspicious behaviour in my opinion. That said...I am going camping this afternoon and will be without internet access until Sunday.

v/LA til Sunday afternoon

BTW...I realize I should not focus solely on Pablo as a scum candidate and will try to explore other possibilities after the adventures in camping this weekend [UK forecast...cold and rainy]

[havingfitz]

You left out the first paragraph, and in doing so, are guilty of creating a reality that is convenient for your case. I specifically went back on the "sit back" mentality when it was apparent that I was being embarrassingly lazy and the town wasn't being too active. Sorry, when I address the issue myself, it isn't hypocrisy, you're just fabricating reality.

Umm....in my 'case' (post 246) against you I supplied post numbers. Anyone reading my 'case' on you could have gone back and read your unedited posts. Paltry asked me to "line up exactly what parts of Pablo's posts you see as hypocritical" so I did. I didn't include your entire posts to keep post 246 somewhat reasonable in length. Whose creating a convenient reality now?

Oh look, another quote you cut down for the sake of your own case. For those keeping score, this is count #2 of havingfitz editing down reality to serve his case:

In 246, he cut the bolded part out so he could make a point THAT I ALREADY POINTED OUT MYSELF, AT THE TIME. Go up and check where he quoted this from me and see the difference. I don't like this one bit.

As mentioned...another example of me responding to Paltry's request for exact parts of your posts. Anyone wanting to read the unedited version could do so. So basically you have wasted two posts criticizing me for distorting reality by trimming your posts when in fact I used your entire posts as reference and only cut them down when requested to.

Huh? I'm trying to be more active in the game. I give my reasons for thinking OMG is the scummiest person (whom you have been focusing on up to this point as well) and vote for him. In your limited number of posts you have urged activity (and used the lack of it as a reason to suspect OMG), prompted us to cast votes, stated your dislike of replacements, and cast suspicions towards OMG. In this one post you use basically all of these things you have espoused to shift suspicions towards me and change your vote from OMG to me. That IMO is several examples of hypocrisy lumped into one post.

Let's look at the context of each case:

OMG disappearing after being called out and voted for by several people: mildly scummy, possibly newbish.

Pablo being less active with no votes on him, but always present: a little lazy, but nothing more.

I am not comparable to OMG, so I think your label of hypocrisy in this case is invalid.

Context of each case....

-- You say you figure OMG is scum in post 104...no mention of him being mildly scummy or new...and he is your focus almost from the beginning until my vote on him.

"Pablo being less active with no votes on him, but always present"
-- What does having no votes on you matter? And if you are always present...then why are you one of the most (if not the most) inactive posters currently in the game and using multiple references to school and moving keeping you from being more active? Does that mean you are sitting back again? Please make up you mind.

-- Who says you aren't comparable to OMG? You? Well that's convenient...for you. You used OMG's inactivity as a negative towards him like I am towards you (among other negatives). In my opinion there is a comparision. And my comments regarding your persistent hypocratic play do not revolve entirely on comparisons to OMG (?).

Page 6:

Game is going SLOOOOOW and OMG is prodded, looking like he will not show up.

havingfitz posts this:

Well I'm looking at everyone as a possible mafia but for some I'm not seeing much if any. I'm just pointing out a few interesting observations IMO regarding Mitey. The lack of anything else going on has given a bit of time to do some nitpicking.

Also...with Vel being out of pocket around the first of Oct I'm crossing my fingers we get to the next day sooner than later. I know that sounds bad but this game is creeping along enough as it is.

He stalls, admitting that he can do nothing but nitpick in a game so slow.

And yet, havingfitz's next post is the vote is for OMG and pressures a hammer

before a replacement can be found

.

How am I stalling? Is that your interpretation...because I don't see it. And at the pace the game was going at the time (there's some context for you) my observations on Mitey Mouse were a bit of nitpicking. So? I was trying to look at other possibilities than OMG. And I did not pressure for a hammer. I welcomed one...I made it clear to anyone else who wanted OMG gone that the oppotunity was there. A better example of pressure would be your entreaties for people to vote...pile on the votes...vote...be active...not be tentative...ie un-Pablo-ish.

What does the fact my vote came in the next post matter? I had suspected OMG for the past 4 days and we were two weeks into the game. My posts 148, 151 and 171 go into detail on the timing and rationale behind my vote for OMG.

You call me hypocritical for doing this, and this is the cornerstone of your argument. Let's look at the reality:

- I pressure for activity/votes in a slow game. True.

- OMG votes pile up and I have no problem because I believe he is still playing.

- When it becomes apparent we need a replacement, havingfitz jumps on the vote-wagon.

- I back off. True. WHY? Because it's everyone's right to defend themselves, but you persist for the lynch. And

I'm

scummy for wanting the day to continue instead of cutting off discussion?

Your preemptive vote on me today also looks like panic and I'm not liking it. The biggest thing you've done today to add to my preexisting suspicion is selectively edit quotes for your non-existent arguments.

Yeah.

vote: havingfitz

Once the replacement occurred (as I've already mentioned) I was willing to hear RayFrost out. Funny enough....since you apparently were so keen to hear from OMG's replacement you may want to note that he had you as his top scum suspect and me as his least scummy suspect. Also...how is my vote pre-emptive or panicked? I have voiced suspicions of you since before OMG was even gone and with OMG (and subsequently MiteyMouse) gone...you are my top suspect. And I gave numerous reasons for my suspicions. Nothing panicked about it. You on the other hand have a very weak defense/case against me...especially considering the biggest thing I've done to add to you suspcions of me is the editting I invalidated at the beginning of this post.

[havingfitz]

EBWOP....

The first part of my last post referenced the wrong post where I made my 'case" and provided the post numbers to Pablo's post in question. The first part should have read:

You left out the first paragraph, and in doing so, are guilty of creating a reality that is convenient for your case. I specifically went back on the "sit back" mentality when it was apparent that I was being embarrassingly lazy and the town wasn't being too active. Sorry, when I address the issue myself, it isn't hypocrisy, you're just fabricating reality.

Umm....in my 'case' (

post 238

) against you I supplied post numbers. Anyone reading my 'case' on you could have gone back and read your unedited posts. Paltry asked me to "line up exactly what parts of Pablo's posts you see as hypocritical" so I did. I didn't include your entire posts to keep post 246 somewhat reasonable in length. Who's creating a convenient reality now?

[havingfitz]

@havingfitz: You seem to wonder why I got you to explain your argument of hypocrisy against Pablo. The reason is, the case is much clearer and defined when you explain the posts you're referring to rather than giving a blanketed statement with references. It allows me to see your thought processes, and lets me decide whether or not it makes sense. It also saves me time.

No...I wasn't wondering why...I was assuming you were too lazy to dig through the 'unedited' posts I had referenced. I didn't mind too much though as it was good to take an even closer look at my reasoning.

I expect Pablo and fitz to respond,

To what? I'm getting responded out.

Questions:
@havingfitz: What does RayFrost suspecting Pablo and believing you help you? He was being truthful (or I assume he was as townie), but he died with less information than we have now.

I only mentioned it as I found it ironic that Pablo mentions his desire to hear what the replacements have to say (can't recall offhand if he mentioned OMG's specifically) and when we did get a somewhat comprehensive analysis from RayFrost...it pointed out, from what turned out to be a townie's perspective, that Pablo was considered the scummiest while I was the least.

Havingfitz, I know you're going to laugh me out of the building on this one: but I ask you to take a closer look at some others before trying to damn me completely. There are 4 other players that are relatively silent in the past few days. I appear to be on the losing side of this argument so far, (though I'd like to see what the

whole

town thinks about this), but it in my experience in the newbie games that the players not actively building cases: those piggybacking, simply agreeing, and staying silent (yeah, yeah, I know, I know) are those more likely to be scum.

I'm not laughing...I need to look at the others because a) at least one of them is scum and b) I think I've beaten my suspicions of you into the ground and anything I say towards you based on your gameplay up to this point would be redundant.

As for you, the amount and "strength" of your replies throws you closer and closer to the "town" bin in my mind. While tunneling can be a good thing to bring out the best or worst in people, it can be dangerous at points, and I'm getting the feeling that this could be a "town vs town" matchup.

Are you tunneling me or am I tunneling you? I know I had three people in my radar in Day one but you were the only one left on Day two...hence my starting the day where I left off with you as my only remaining suspect. I can't guarantee your scum (as was mentioned to me in regards to OMG) and my tagetting skills are nothing to brag about. I'm more than happy to examine other possibilities for the time being.

btw, I still think that my "inactivity" versus OMG's is no comparison. OMG disappeared under heat. Completely. What am I doing? Defending myself and firing back. Does this kind of reaction change anything in your mind? And if not, why not?

OMG's lack of activity may have been for different reasons...I don't think we have any way of knowing. You are being more active though it could just be to defend yourself. So your current activity doesn't change anything in my mind. I do prefer the stand up and defend method to the presumed method OMG used. BTW...you have a few outstanding questions from me in Day that answers would still be welcomed to.

Also...the lack of involvement from other people is pretty disappointing. Lack of interest? Lurking....flying under the radar? Life?

[havingfitz]

I'm amazed at how this thread has died. Apparently if Pablo and I aren't going at each other with occassional moderation by Paltry Excuse....there is nothing else to discuss.

I have not had a chance to pour over the posts from everyone else but in an effort for me (and others?) to seek other possible scum (besides my suspicions towards Pablo) I will as soon as possible. That said...I am on a work trip the rest of this week and may not get a chance to post again until this Saturday. If I can post before then I will...but it is doubtful.

v/LA 10 Oct

In the meantime....could everyone still in the game give their thoughts on possible scum as well? Anything would be nice....a top three list....a comprehensive analysis like RayFrost did....something.

[havingfitz]

Back from v/LA and bump for the sake of the illusion this game is still active.

Can not believe DeathNote has bailed. Without saying anything personal I think if you start something (especially with a group of other people) you should finish it.

This game is at a snail's pace and very hard to get good reads from so many inactive players or from players who add nothing, or both. I thought TC made some good points on DeathNote but I tend to lean towards DN being town.

I'm in the middle of a read through each players posts (talk about excitement there) and I will give my thoughts for the reading pleasure of the two or three others who appear to be playing this game.

[havingfitz]

So, um... is DeathNote going to be replaced?? @_@; I fear I won't have very much to add until then. T_T; Why is it all the people I think are scummy vanish/go off to mod another game?

By the way... I'd like to mention that I don't really like PBPAs... >_<;
It feels like targets are being painted on our backs for NKs! Usually, I think it's sufficient to post your top suspects! ^_^

What is a PBPA? I assume it is a comprehensive explanation of suspicions like PE and RF provided. Either way...what does it stand for? I agree that it is something that could be used by mafia in a NK but it can also be used by town to find scum. When RayFrost provided his I took it with a grain of salt at that moment but when he ended up being town...it gave his opinions more validity and value IMO. Even though it was still just based on opinion...it was at least based on a bonifide town opinion and not one from scum trying to mislead town (which I am not insinuating PE's post is trying to do).

[havingfitz]

Nor do I feel that knowing that he was indeed town adds any more value to his opinion... this is a game of deception, and people can easily be mistaken! ^_^

Sure...people can be mistaken. But at least reviewing an analysis from someone who was town...you know (or should assume) that the analysis is an honest opinion which may point out things another townie may have not noticed. Whereas if RayFrost had turned out to be mafia I would be more inclined to not believe his anaylsis....though it would perhaps provide insight into who the other mafia were....which would be an understandable reason for mafia to not be interested in providing such an analysis.

[havingfitz]

I have been reading over each individual's posts the last few days and I don't feel like I am getting anywhere. I thought TC made some good observations on DN but when I looked closer I think I came to some of the same conclusions Bob has used in DN's defense. I'm not convinced DN is mafia. Also...I'm having a hard time pinning down suspicions on TC, Roo, and PE. I'm still maintaining my suspicions towards Pablo but I think I'm starting to get a scummy feel from ABR. ABR came in right off the bat with attacks towards RayFrost (who at the time was the scum leader for several people...including me). He threw a quick vote out on Roo...even though he seemed focused on RF/OMG. He then urged everyone to vote...trying to get votes on Roo...get people to vote it up. Urged RF to claim (which I do not understand the value of as who would believe a claim from someone they suspected was scum?) several times and then voted him regardless. Since RF has been gone ABR has been basically taking a back seat and making worthless posts (to stay involved?) and letting us know he is v/LA but will get things going once he returns. So at the moment he is right up there with PM for me.

[havingfitz]

Oh damn, I confused this game with Open 162--Trendy and Subversive Mafia ~~Day 2. In this game, my suspects were havingfitz and PE.

Unvote, vote havingfitz

HF makes some good points against me, things for which I have no defense, however I do think he is scum.

OK…thanks for acknowledging my good points. Here is a little elaboration on them:

ABR starts his entry into the game by disputing RayFrost on a minor issue (RF claiming to have selected the scummiest player to replace). Then says he will suspect TC if RF flips town (which he did). Then he FoS RF and Votes Roo? Pressures RF for a a claim..urges people to vote. PE to vote. Votes RF and still pressures him for a claim. RF is lynched. Turns up town. What happened to suspicions on TC if Ray flipped town? What caused to to stop suspecting Roo? All of a sudden it's either Pablo or I that or scum. Still thinks TC has more to answer for than Roo. So ABR votes AlmightyBob? Wait....he meant to vote Me and his other suspect is PE. What? So you've obviously picked me in the Pablo or HF scenario and I've shot up past TC and Roo. And now PE is in the mix. (or did you mean PM?) Or do you know which game you are in? or are you v/LA? Kind of...?

[havingfitz]

RayFrost - 5 (Tororingu-chan, PaltryExcuse, DeathNote, Albert B. Rampage, havingfitz)

I think both scum were on this wagon.

You could be right. But since you have been in the game you have accused everyone of being scum. And since OMG was essentially the runaway favorite to get lynched on Day one....why would both (or either) scum need to vote for him? He could have very likely got himself lynched without scum help.

I'm not scum. DeathNote wouldn't have asked for a replacement from a winning position IMO. Toringu-chan was pushing for a RayFrost lynch since the beginning.

If you were scum would you tell us? This is as useful to us as the claim you squeezed from RayFrost. And the fact DN got replaced has no bearing on his town or scum status. I would have thought mafia would be more likely to not quit a game but in my only other mafia game....both the mafia were replaced (not sure which point in the game but it was early). So mafia can ask for replacements as well as town.

So that leaves two players: fitz and PE. That's who I think the scum are.

Way to take a stand.

There's good reason to suspect fitz already:

That doesn't make your intentions clear at all for me. If the town doesn't want him lynched, they'll respond in kind. It seems to me as though you shied away from attack and hid behind 'what the town wants'. From what I understand, it was the 'what the town wanted' that convinced you.

Fitz was also wayyy too keen on lynching Ray when his so-called number one suspect was Pablo.

What was the good reason? What is the PE quote for? If that is your good reason...I responded to PE's comments in post 241. How was I way to keen? Was I asking people to vote it up? I voted for the person I had been targetting as the most scummy. I was consistent and not "wishy washy" with my suspicions. You should try it.

As for PE, he's been pretty wishy washy towards Fitz all game.

In the argument of fitz vs. Pablo:
I'm currently leaning towards a vote for Pablo.
Pablo's early play was contradictory, or at the very least confusing.

In the end though, he takes his chance with helping who I think is his buddy out. They're scum backing each other to victory.

You pointed out that you thought Pablo or I were scum. PE agreed with you and appears to have leaned towards my side of the PM/HF debate. Since you thought Pablo or I were scum and it appears you have settled for me...does that mean you are taking a chance by helping Pablo out? You have been wishy washy towards everyone in the game. I'm having a hard time taking anything you post seriously as it does not appear that much thought goes into your posts and you are posting for the sake of posting. Is the other game still a distraction? Are you back from v/LA now?

[havingfitz]

PE agreed with you and appears to have leaned towards my side of the PM/HF debate

What "debate"? Is someone continuing this and not telling me? Have you been reading my words? I have resigned from my side for the time being, as evidenced by my unvote and my whole lack-of-attacking-you.

When I said ‘debate’ I was talking about the early part of Day two where we were focused on each other. In post 341 ABR basing part of his weak case against me on PE’s leaning towards a vote for you following our ‘debate,’ or argument, or exchange, or to quote TC…"going at each other’s throats." I am not trying to continue “this”…I was looking for clarification from ABR…which is difficult to get from him…on his suspicions towards me. It would appear he is reacting (coincidentally at the request of PE) in kind to the suspicions I displayed towards him in post 322.

@rest of Town

: thoughts on
1) my interpretation of DN's actions and words
2) ABR's mind-reading abilities

1) They are similar to my interpretations. When TC made her case I thought she brought up some things worth looking more closely at. After further review I’m not convinced DN is scum. Suspicious…sure (as is everyone else IMO to some degree). Maybe if it was L-1 or 2 he wouldn’t have had the conviction to place his vote. Whereas voting when it's L-3 may have been about as committed as he appeared to towards OMG (and in hindsight…the game itself).

2) Not impressive. Additionally…if he’s town as he claims…his actions are not helping other town IMO. Being rude and offensive to people who fall in both your town and scum categories does not help progress the game and in fact your erractic and offensive play could pave the way to your lynching (as it did to an individual in my 1st game)…which if you are town would only hurt the remaining town.

[havingfitz]

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:14 am Post subject: 309

I apologize, but I have a ton of homework to do (I slacked off all weekend) posts 200 on will come tomorrow. Sorry people.

Last post: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:02 pm Post subject: 314

Roo? Hello? Roo? You have been the most absent player I have had the pleasure of playing with in my short Mafia gaming experience.

Were you planning on participating again?

[havingfitz]

Nah, well played. Just a little annoying that, from the moment I replaced in, I was screwed no matter what. But it's not your fault.

Wow.

Well Bob...thanks for making it easy. Just curious...why wouldn't you have claimed TC was making it up? Seems like you rolled over without a fight.

Unvote

Vote: DeathNote/almightybob

[havingfitz]

That sucks that ABR was the doctor. If the doctor had made it through the night town would have been guaranteed the win. Now a town win is more like 50-50 unless TC guessed right during the night. As she had a 1-4 chance of investigating the right person I hope she chose wisely.

My ongoing suspicions of Pablo have not gone away. Even though RR has not been the most active player (and now on the verge of replacement) I am not sold on her being scum and think she has played it straight for most of the game. The wildcard for me is Paltry Excuse. He has posted a good amount but I need to take a closer look at the content. I lean towards town but am leary that he could just be a very good player who is scum...but coming across as town. Kind of like how ABR was coming across a bit scummy to me and wound up being town.

Looking forward to hearing what TC has to say/report.

[havingfitz]

I hope you are toying with us a bit TC and guessed right overnight

I gave my suspicions already but if I had to pick scum...I would lean towards Pablo for consistencies sake (but with the underlying feeling I had guessed wrong and it was a well played scum role by Paltry Excuse).

[havingfitz]

Well that stinks...I'm

v/LA until Friday evening (4pm e.s.t.)

and will have to wait to hear what TC has to say. Welcome Starbuck...

[havingfitz]

Sorry I didn't get a chance to post yesterday. Pablo...I said I was v/La until yesterday, why the continued pressuring on me to post? I agree it would be good to hear from Starbuck...especially since we now know she is town and is set to play the deciding vote in Day 4 if we don't get it right today. Please get into the game Starbuck....

So we have TC for the rest of the day and Starbuck confirmed town. That leaves me with Pablo and Paltry to focus on. As I can not be 100% sure Pablo is scum I would say I'm 70% in favor of a lynch on him. He has dismissed my Day 2 suspicions of him as a weak point I was championing. I have had my suspicions of you since Day 1 and focused on you for a good part of Day 2 (until you basically called uncle and asked me to look elsewhere). Your entire defense of my accusations was the fact I was editing your posts to create a convenient reality for me...when in fact Paltry had asked me to clarify (more specifically) an earlier response from me to a question he had on me case towards you. You defense on TCs suspicions of you today is equally weak. Based on your voting record? You were equally on the OMG wagon as everyone else and then pulled out when I voted OMG/Ray. How townie of you <---sarcasm. I do not think scum would be hardpressed to both expose themselves with vote a Day 1 lynch for someone who was the overwhelming favorite to go. And your day 2 vote meant nothing as Almightybob had confessed and you really had no choice. That vote was based on the timing of you being on the site. And did your vote even count? I thought we needed four and you were the 5th to vote. Lastly...your comments on being so passionate when you are town had me doubting your scuminess until TC dug up the passionate scum post you made. I felt that was a very important revelation on her part and basically sealed my suspicions towards you over Paltry.

I wil take another closer look at Paltry and wait until Starbucks provides her thoughts before placing my vote but unless something significant changes my mind my vote will be going to Pablo.

[havingfitz]

Vel.....can you prod Starbuck?

Her role is pivitol (if we don't get today's vote right) and she has only made two very short introductory posts since replacing Ronnieroo last Tuesday. And it's been 70+ hrs since her last one.

[havingfitz]

Starbuck, I advise you stop wasting time with my posts~ =_=;

I was a bit suprised at the amount of analyzing she did on the cop. As you have half the posts in the game if she doesn't 'waste time' with you she'll get her analysis done in no time.

<j/k Starbucks...I know there is value in reviewing TCs comments and interactions with others>

BTW...the more time that passes the more I find myself re-reading Paltry's posts and my scum meter getting a bit lower on Pablo and higher for Paltry. Maybe down from 70-30 to 60-40. Still most suspicious of Pablo but am finding some of Paltry's towniness scummy.

Question for the more experienced players....when you are provided your roles at the beginning of the game...if you are Mafia and your game has a Mafia Roleblocker and a Mafia Goon like our does....are you informed that your scum partner is a Roleblocker if you are the Goon or would the only way you know your partner was a Roleblocker if he/she told you during your night PMs to each other?

[havingfitz]

Question for the more experienced players....when you are provided your roles at the beginning of the game...if you are Mafia and your game has a Mafia Roleblocker and a Mafia Goon like our does....are you informed that your scum partner is a Roleblocker if you are the Goon or would the only way you know your partner was a Roleblocker if he/she told you during your night PMs to each other?

Odd timing for this question...

What would have been a better point to ask it? It did not occur to me to ask it until I began looking closer at yours and Pablo's interactions with DN/AMB. I just want to know when the Goon would conceivably know their partner was a Roleblocker. In the initial notification from VRK? If not...they can communicate before the game begin...right? Or at the very least at night between Day one and two.

[havingfitz]

And how is my 'towniness' scummy?

My opinion of yours and Pablo's games is they have been opposite ends of the spectrum. Consider that a gut feel. I still lean towards Pablo but I also think a good mafia player would try to look as much townie as they could. I'm down to two suspects for the last scum and as I think you are the more town of the two (you and Pablo)...and as this day drags on...my gut start to wonder if you seem more townie for a reason (i.e. are you scum that has done a good job disguising it).

[havingfitz]

What would have been a better point to ask it? It did not occur to me to ask it until I began looking closer at yours and Pablo's interactions with DN/AMB. I just want to know when the Goon would conceivably know their partner was a Roleblocker. In the initial notification from VRK? If not...they can communicate before the game begin...right? Or at the very least at night between Day one and two.

Obviously, the remaining scum would know the answer to this question. So you're basically saying, I can't be the last scum because I don't know how scum works.
I'm pretty sure this question is honest, as I also believe Pablo is scum, however the timing makes it weird.

I didn't know the answer to the question (thanks VRK)...I could only assume what it was. It was asked on the off chance that any of the players currently in the game had been Mafia before and in a Goon-Roleblocker scenario. Like I said...the timing was based on the extended opportunities we've all had to dwell over each other's postings and my curiosity over what point in the game the Goon would know there was a Roleblocker. IMO early knowledge would give the Goon insight into the 50-50% chance there was a cop and may affect their posting habits...especially if they saw what appeared to be cop-like behaviour on their buddy (such as TCs focus on DN in Day 2). I was not expecting you or Pablo to say "Deathnote never mentioned it to me" etc. I give you both more credit than that

Thanks again VRK for the answer. Interesting.

[havingfitz]

@Starbuck

It's good to see you getting caught up. If after you've read through the entire game you have any questions for me I will be happy to answer. I would address some of the points you bring up now but I'd prefer to wait until you have the whole game picture for you to formulate any questions for me.

[havingfitz]

First things first....

Vote: Pablo Molinero

@Starbuck...is there any specifics you want me to answer or shall I just weed through your analyses and try to deduce what your questions are.

[havingfitz]

@Starbuck...btw, I'm not waiting for specifics to begin weeding...just want to make sure if there are items of more importance you feel are against me.

Also...the vote for Pablo is for reasons already specified throughout the game. I wan'ted to wait until Starbuck gave her analysis to see if she had any observations on Pablo or Paltry that I had missed. Guess not. No Pablo/Paltry analysis for Day 3? Just t vs t?

[havingfitz]

So, why would you have to wait for me to finish my analysis when you have been here the whole time?

You should definitely have a feel for who you think is scum or not without my opinion on the matter.

I have made my 'feel' perfectly clear...you did read my posts after all. If I had voted Pablo before you had got involved in the game, and TC hammered....then we potentially go to day four without hearing from you at all (save your intro post) and having a chance to get a fresh insights into the game.

Do you find taking other people's opinions into account a negative? Especially those who are confirmed town?

[havingfitz]

Ray wasn't confirmed town, he replaced a person I suspected was most likely scum and I did not think he would be able to change my mind (and he didn't).

You did replace confirmed town and if this game goes to day four....you hold the deciding vote.

[havingfitz]

Well, that vote from fitz is not at all surprising. Right after a big ol' analysis against him, a vote is dropped and he goes from cautious to self-preservation mode.

Well, my hand has been sort of forced here. Thank you, Starbuck for reminding me of my old cases against fitz. My mind has changed a little reading that, and I think it's still about 60/40, but in favor of fitz, (due the attack on me on Day 3), since he has plenty of history against him. I can't get past his little, "I agree with Bob on his DeathNote defense," and that's IT about that subject. That's how scum sweeps things under the rug (I is a broken record, but that's what I believe).

At the risk of NK analysis (don't know why this hasn't been mentioned yet). ABR died in the night and it just so happened that he was the experienced player that was going head-to-head with fitz near the end of Day 2. He may have been bumped off since scum knew he would hound him the next day.

Unvote, Vote: havingfitz

T-c, it’s up to you now. Please read everything, see the timing, the arguments, and think critically.

I'm still formulating response to Starbuck's extrememely long analysis.

In the meantime:

So she reminded you of the weak case you called 'uncle' on? Who is switching BWs to save their butt? I have maintained suspicions of you since day one. My vote should come as no surprise. The timeliness of it was to ensure you had two votes before I did (as I expected you to flip to me). And just because I had an opinion on ABR and it was wrong...I don't think anyone would deny his posting was erratic and offensive. Even Starbucks comments on it. Re: my exchanges with ABR, people are wrong...just like ABR was when he assessed Almightly Bob as being townish (along with Pablo I might add).

[havingfitz]

You are opportunistic scum.

You are a lousy detective which I will point out in the long reply I am putting together. If I go today you should be extremely happy with your undermining of the town's chances to win this game.

[havingfitz]

I definitely feel that the case on OMGL was very weak and it seemed like everyone else was just parroting off what Pablo or T-chan said. That being said, so far it just seems like a very easy/opportunistic lynch for the scum.

I'd also like to mention that DeathNote is at the typical scum third vote on the RayFrost/OMGL bandwagon.

By typical I assume you mean a trend...and a quick look of ten completed Mafia games that lynched a townie on day one shows 80% of the games only had one Scum vote on the lynch. None of the games I looked at (Road to Rome Newbie games: 835, 832, 831, 830, 825, 817, 816, 813, 808, 806) had no mafia on the lynch and the remaining 20% had both on the lynch. So significantly more often then not, when a townie goes first, there will only be one scum on the lynch.

On havingfitz

He stays very quiet. I know I'm just catching up, but I keep forgetting that he's in the game with how little he posts.

Like I said before though...the only person close to getting a vote for me at the moment would be OMG and even then I would need to look over his posts again.

This bothers me because it seems like you are just following the crowd, and the fact that you would need to look over his posts again proves your uncertainty.

I didn’t get into the swing of the game until the 4th page. By then most or all of the points I found suspicious of OMG had been brought up already. If the ‘crowd’ has given what you (I) believe are valid suspicions...aren’t you (I) allowed to accept and act on those suspicions as well? Throughout the course of Day one, OMG was my main suspect but I hadn’t ruled anyone else out because as you have already pointed out...there were still two scum in the game at this point.

I definitely don't agree with the lynch on OMGL as I said in my last analysis post. I definitely think it was driven by opportunistic scum. Knowing his alignment, it's very obvious that he was a frustrated townie, and the fact that the "experienced" players in this game didn't pick up on this bothers me greatly.

Knowing OMGs alignment as you now do it’s easy to disagree with his lynch.

On havingfitz

He takes a very opportunistic jump onto the OMGL wagon in Post 141. I also don't like how he seems to go out of his way to analyze why he thinks that the person putting the 5th vote (or in this case the hammer vote on someone) would not increase his suspicions of them. And the fact that he mentions that his vote will get to a lynch quicker bothers me.

The timing of your vote, havingfitz, really is odd. The thing that scares me more is the fact that you're inviting us to vote out OMG and stating

no consequences or suspicions

from yourself. In that situation if someone threw on a 5th vote I would think them reckless and scummy. It reeks of a quicklynch now that we've waited for many days waiting for an OMG response.

This. QFT.

1.) I’m an impatient person. If everyone was actively participating I would be in no hurry to end the first day.

Being impatient in a mafia game is a BAD thing. I know at the time of this post that OMGL hadn't posted in 5 days, but lynching someone who can't defend themselves is scummy.

I don’t think two weeks into the game is a quicklynch…especially when OMG has been the scum focus of the game and has had votes on him for most of the game.

I agree two weeks is definitely not a quicklynch especially at the rate this game seemed to be going, but your entrance onto the wagon is definitely scummy.

How is an entrance onto a wagon scummy? Are you saying every L-1 vote is scummy (as apparently is an L-2 and a hammer vote)? How do you think people get lynched? As for all the other questions above... I have addressed them in full in post 148. I can cut and paste the entire post but to not make this post twice as long I would appreciate it if you would just read it, I can’t make those points any better than I did.

What bothers me here is that you just admit to voting for him because he's the focus and has the most votes. You, more or less, make a small post about Mitey and then tunnel on OMGL for the rest of the day.

OMG did defend himself and his weak defense is one of the things being held against him. Weren’t you the one who encouraged us to pile on the votes?

He's still new though, newer than yourself. It seems to me that quite a few people in this game aren't looking at that fact.

And this is a different negative how? I had two days of Mafia under my belt at this point in our game...OMG was my top suspect...for reasons identified by others....who were also suspicious of/voting him. I’m newer than you and you are using points brought up by others. For shame.

I agree that the L-1 and 5th votes are actions that warrant suspicion. I tried to preface my vote with my reasoning as best that I could. After re-reading my vote post before I submitted it...I could not consider a potential 5th vote after mine as suspicious without being a total hypocrite. Which I try not to do. I've had OMG as my main suspect since last week...as have others. I don't look forward to my main suspect being replaced. I gave my thoughts on it being a quicklynch above…I don’t think it would be one.

The contradictions in this post, and the contradictions with your previous posts with the post bother me. You agree that L-1 and hammer votes are actions that warrant suspicion, but then you contradict yourself and say that you can't consider the hammer after your L-1 vote to be suspicious.

You say you were suspicious of OMG since the week prior, but you basically parrot off of what everyone else says with your suspicion of him. I mentioned it in my first analysis and I'll mention it again. You definitely are following the crowd here.

You also repeat yourself quite a bit that you don't look forward to him being replaced. I get a very scummy feeling from this because you jumped on the wagon since he couldn't defend himself and you don't want a replacement to come in to defend themselves and possibly debunk your already weak case.

How am I following the crowd? What constitutes following the crowd? Being any vote past the second vote? Agreeing with points that have already been raised by other (that you think are valid)? Is a player only allowed to use suspicions that he or she uncovers themself? Are all persons who place an L-2->hammer vote certified scum? Anything I have failed to address so far I think is in post 148.

While a large part of my last few days posting has been based on a desire to move things along...it is also with the most likely scum candidate at the moment in mind and not having to deal with his replacement and the replacement's efforts to remove the scum stain left by OMG (which I would have a hard time accepting).

I definitely do not like the tone in this. OMGL really didn't leave such a huge stain of scumminess as you are painting here. The tunneling of OMGL is noted.

Once again...you have the hindsight of knowing OMG was town whereas I did not. I had other suspects...Pablo from 107 and MiteyMouse from 131...both posts of which were fairly soon after I got into the swing of the game. I had my main suspect but was not oblivious to other candidates. You can only lynch one person at a time so if going after your main suspect is tunnelling then I guess I was tunnelling. Are you tunnelling me?

On Tororingu-chan

Hmmm~~ I find it odd that havingfitz seems to think that OMGLyncher is guaranteed scum and would rather lynch him now rather than wait for a replacement~ >_<;

Yet at this point in time I would still prefer an OMGLyncher lynch.... havingfitz rushing into things only shows that havingfitz is impatient, not that he is scum... ^_^

Wow, what a contradiction here.

How can that only show that havingfitz is impatient? I definitely have pointed out quite a few scummy things with havingfitz and I'm rather bothered that you just dismiss that with a wave of your hand.

You seem awfully determined to indict me.

On Tororingu-chan

See what I find funny about HF thinking that Ray/OMG is guaranteed Scum is that it smels of PIS (perfect infrmation syndrome). What I find funnier is that you point this out and then defend him T-Chan.

I'm very glad that Mitey pointed this out when it happened as it's exactly what I'm currently thinking.

As I have already stated (posts 151 and 159), I can not guarantee anyone is scum and nowhere do I mention OMG is guaranteed scum.

I noticed it, and it was odd, but at this point in time I don't consider him scummier than OMGLyncher~~ ^_^ So far, I'm willing to accept his explanation that he's just really impatient, since I can see how it's possible to be exasperated at the rate this game is (was) moving.. @_@;;

I don't like your willingness to accept that he's just impatient. You definitely are defending havingfitz. I also don't like that after MM pointed you out as defending havingfitz that you get all up in arms about it.

Once again...you are dismissing an opinion that goes against your suspicions. You have your mind set it looks like. As TC is a cop I guess she’s not defending me as a scum buddy. She must be expressing a genuine opinion with no ulterior motives.

On DeathNote

DN - I put him here, but he's obv. scum. he's obviously the one manipulating events so I replace into games with him in them seriously though, no real read on him so far.

Ray, I hope you are reading along and I hope you are basking in the fact that you were right about DeathNote with your first sentence.

I mean, seriously, wtf. Why didn't you guys jump on DeathNote during Day 1? His very obvious scumminess is screaming at me.

That hindsight 20/20 is awfully clear. And how was Ray right? He said he had no real read.

On havingfitz

I thought you learned your lesson in my last (& first...816) game. Always make your analysis post first. You did the same thing in that game...showed up way late Japan time...said you'd have a read and get back to us. Then you were lynched to end the game before you had a chance to speak.

I definitely do not care for this post. I mean seriously, someone can't check in to say hi before they do their analysis?

Seriously...can you take a joke? In my only other game up to that point, Ray had replaced in and was lynched before he had a chance to give any input. I was simply messing with him which he appears to have understood in his next post with a smile.

MM...nowhere do I make any reference to OMG being guaranteed scum. He was #1 on my list last week...as he was for a few others...but my suspicions on him were not the only reasons for my vote on him (as I have explained in detail). Don't put words in my mouth to justify your attempt to shift negative sentiment my way. I would focus more on the content of your posts. For someone with as much experience as you and so willing to help the IC...your posts don't have a lot of meat to them.

Do you have any other reasons to suspect me besides your faulty accusation that I think OMG was guaranteed scum?

What about this:

While a large part of my last few days posting has been based on a desire to move things along...it is also with the most likely scum candidate at the moment in mind and not having to deal with his replacement and the replacement's efforts to remove the scum stain left by OMG (which I would have a hard time accepting).

You say right there that you would have a hard time accepting a replacement's efforts to remove the scum stain, which to me (and obviously to MM) is you stating that you think he's guaranteed scum.

<knocking head on computer> OMG was my primary suspect. If people want to infer guaranteed scum from scum stain (which you are the only one doing that I am aware of) then I don’t know what to say. I used that choice of words

after

TC mentioned ‘guaranteed scum’...and in my interpretation, MM was adding on to TC’s mention of ‘guaranteed scum’...not my use of ‘scum stain’.

I think it's interesting that havingfitz immediately downgrades to a FoS after a real life person came along. Not only that, but the real-live person hasn't even posted a proper defense or response yet. Where did the gung-ho behavior go? What about keeping pressure on and making replacements answer for with their predecessor did? I'm fine where my vote is right now on havingfitz, who hasn't helped himself one bit with his recent actions, but I'd definitely like to see how Ray responds.

Pablo hits the nail on the head here.


How funny that havingfitz goes on and on how the hammer vote wouldn't be looked on as being suspicious by him, and he goes and hammers. And his reason now for his vote is that RayFrost hasn't done enough since he replaced in to change his mind.

What nail did Pablo hit? Please see my post 159 where I explain my FoS on Ray.

I have low scum reads on all the people voting for RF while my top three suspects are sending their votes elsewhere. Seems like my odds (assuming my 'gut' is right) of hitting scum are decent.

Well, guess you are kinda wrong here with the fact that DeathNote was on the RayFrost/OMGL bandwagon.

Lots of people have been kind of wrong in this game. With the knowledge of my role...I can think of at least one other person who is kind of wrong. I stand by the quote above....it was in reference to the fact I did not think both scum would be on the lynch (which is supported by the findings I got when reviewing completed games). I assumed one would be on the lynch and one wouldn’t. The three who weren’t voting for OMG/Ray were Ray (my #1 suspect) Pablo (my #2 and TBD) and MM who turned up town.

On ABR

One thing I want to mention about ABR is that I've played with him before and although I see he was V/LA, his posts in general really didn't impress me especially knowing now that he was the doc.

What's funny about all this is that the maf took the shot at ABR, probably figuring that there was a Doc out there that could protect T-chan. But I don't think they anticipated that he was the doc.

With Almightybob’s vote on ABR prior to TC coming out...ABR was practically confirmed town (unless he was bussing) so a confirmed town was the logical move for the remaining scum to make. Luckily for scum they hit the doctor as well.

On havingfitz

That sucked. Two of my top three suspects turn out to be town. Obviously any gut feel/intuition I've got needs re-adjusted.

At least my odds of hitting scum have improved.

This just screams scumminess to me.

I can’t argue with an opinion. Even if I didn’t have the insight that your intuitions were wrong...I still wouldn’t know how to respond to this.

I wasn't shying away...when the votes for OMG were getting fewer I was basically resigned to the fact he wasn't going anywhere (at least before a replacement was made) and once that replacement was made, it was only common courtesy to let the replacement have their say.

And when the replacement did have their say you placed the hammer vote because you didn't like what they said and they didn't do enough to change your mind, but you didn't state WHY or WHAT you didn't like.

Even Ray admitted hid defense of OMG’s actions was rambly and the best he could give. It was no defense. After Ray replaced in DN unvoted, Paltry voted, DN voted, ABR voted, and then I voted. I gave him more time than anyone to make a defense. He didn’t make a good one...TC brought up a good observation IMO about Ray thinking Roo was scummy for defending OMG (him)...that tipped the balance for my hammer vote.

I'm definitely not liking the case he makes on Pablo in Post 246. He cuts out half of Pablo's Post 70 and only uses the part that makes himself look good. His entire statement about hypocrisy at all is null and void to me.

Have you read any of my posts? As I stated already...In my initial comments that Pablo is referring to I had referenced back to posts which people could have read unedited...then Paltry asked me this “@Fitz: If you could line up exactly what parts of Pablo's posts you see as hypocritical it would be much more clear for me.” Which is what I did.

1. You and Pablo were not the only ones focusing on OMGL. At that point, everyone in the game was focusing on him.

And your point is? If everyone else is focusing on OMG and I (we) do it...it counts against me?

2. Urging activity is part of being a good IC and being a mafia player in general.

But urging activity while being one of the most inactive members is not (ex Pablo)

3. I have said before that OMGL gave me the impression of a frustrated townie, but others do take lurking out of a game (depending on the actions of the person) as a scum tell. You also did this, so I don't understand your reasoning here.

I don’t understand your question.

4. Prompting to cast votes is also part of being a good IC. The best thing that townies have are their vote. The fact that you are jumping on him for asking people to use their vote bothers me.

He specifically called me out in the post where he encourages us to vote (see post 70). That’s one of the reasons I gained suspicion towards Pablo. I think when people encourage others to do something and then hold it against them...that is manipulating the game and scummy.

5. A lot of people dislike replacements, how is this in anyway related to the situation at hand?

I don’t like replacements...more so for people I think are suspicious....OMG was my main suspect and he was replaced. That’s how it’s related.

Pablo, who doesn't like replacements and wants people to vote and be active, denounces my downgrading of my vote on RayFrost (which I have explained in detail was to allow him (RF) to state his case) and looks forward to seeing how Ray responds. ? Isn't this what I am trying to achieve as well? <=Hypocrisy>

In summary....Pablo has: urged us to be active, to pile on votes, stated his dislike of replacements, used OMG's lack of activity as a reason to suspect OMG, and been willing to hear OMGs replacement state his case and hypocritically, Pablo has been: the least active on the board, vehemently objected to my vote on his main suspect (OMG), and criticized my willingness (however reluctant it may have been) to allow OMG's replacement to have his say in the very same post where he (Pablo) announces he is looking forward to hearing OMG's replacement's response as well. And then Pablo disappears until Ray is gone.

1. To me, it seemed like you couldn't care what RayFrost said because he would never redeem the actions of OMGL to you, and you state this in the post where you hammer him. So what was the point of you unvoting in the first place?

Answered in posts 159 and 171

3. Where has he been the least active? If you are going to say this, I want to see numbers.

I made this point in post 246. At that point in the game Pablo was the least active (unless you treat Mafia_failure and OMG without their replacements which would not make sense...but even their replacements had out posted Pablo)...VRK posts not included either:

ABR 19
RayFrost 17

DeathNote 32
havingfitz 22
Mafia_failure + ABR 30
MiteyMouse 19
OMGLyncher + RayFrost 24
Pablo Molinero 15
PaltryExcuse 26
ronnieroo 17
Tororingu_chan 49

4. Why can't he object to your scummy jump onto the wagon? Whether or not it's the same person he suspects holds no water.

I voted because I suspected OMG. I felt Pablo was scummy for admonishing me for voting (the same person he was voting) when he had encouraged votes...and named me specifically.


I need a break before I see if more needs responded to.

[havingfitz]

Ahahaahhaha. You admit the case was weak? And I cried "uncle"? Lulz. I read your arguing STYLE as slightly more townie in a few posts on Day 2. As such, I wanted to back off before it spiraled out of control and a tunneling situation happened. Never did I concede any of your damn points, so don't go acting as if you "won" that exchange earlier. Mostly irrelevant, but it's a point of personal pride that you didn't "beat" anyone.

This sounds like I'm trying to sweet-talk Paltry, but nevertheless his unvote shows a very townie side of him. Instead of sitting back, riding his vote on me, and letting you or me get lynched by T-c, he's given second thought to getting the right lynch in 1 try instead of 2, which I appreciate.

My goodness....your nose is brown.

I admit your case was weak. How else would you interpret your admitting you appeared to be on the losing side of the argument? Interpret reality to your liking much? Your actions over the last several posts have screamed scum to me. Quick flip...sucking up to Starbuck and the person you spent most of day three voting for. No sweet nothings for TC?

[havingfitz]

Post 509 seems nasty though.

Nothing nasty about it. Starbucks is stating opinion when she calls me "opportunistic scum" and I am stating fact with the benefit of hindsight and knowing my role.

He||, it appeared she was on pace to have TC as one of her top suspects until she realized she was a cop...and I know whether her current vote is on target, she does not. There is also the added frustration of having the entire fate of this game of several weeks be placed in the hands of someone who has waited a week to show any involvement and then when she does...gets it wrong.

[havingfitz]

I'm a lousy detective? I think you are just upset because I have a very, very good case on you and you can't debunk by saying "she's inactive, let's lynch her" or "she's gotta be scum" because I'm confirmed.

I definitely think I caught you, and you are upset about it. Nice appeal to emotion though, it's a good try, but a failure.

Yes.

You are relegated to thinking you caught me. That's a step down from knowing whether you have or not (which I do know...along with the remaining scum). And I don't think you have a good case...all you have done is "parrot" points others have brought up which I have already addressed. If parroting is not acceptable when voting for suspected scum...why are you doing it? 17 or 18 pages of material is a lot to catch up with and your cursory investigation has failed you.

[havingfitz]

Who says you aren't comparable to OMG? You? Well that's convenient...for you. You used OMG's inactivity as a negative towards him like I am towards you (among other negatives). In my opinion there is a comparision. And my comments regarding your persistent hypocratic play do not revolve entirely on comparisons to OMG (?).

This bothers me because Pablo is no where near as inactive as OMGL was.

As of OMG’s last post...Pablo uses inactivity as a negative towards OMG and as I have shown in my early post...Pablo was the most inactive player in the game. You asked for numbers and I gave them to you.

Once the replacement occurred (as I've already mentioned) I was willing to hear RayFrost out.Funny enough....since you apparently were so keen to hear from OMG's replacement you may want to note that he had you as his top scum suspect and me as his least scummy suspect.

This post bothers me. You definitely did not care what Ray had to say especially because you were pushing for the lynch to happen before he replaced in.

Once it was obvious a replacement was going to take place I was will to give the person the courtesy of hearing their thoughts on the game and OMG. I gave him longer to make a defense than anyone else. He made no defense. The only attempt he makes is in post 198 when he says:

Imo, his play would be classified as dumb play, but not necessarily scummy play. Some individuals are tentative by nature, so they are unlikely to push their ideas when there is anything even somewhat aggressive toward them. Then some experience mood swings that lead them to be aggressive toward their attackers and then they slip away again after the heat of the moment in a mix of embarrassment and self-doubt, etc, etc.

That's a rambly defense of his bad play, and it's the best you can get out of me in defense of it, in all likelihood.

He had been very active in his short time and had plenty of opportunity to make a strong defense. The only other post of any content he made was his LoS...in which he hit the nail on the head with his townish reads.

Also...how is my vote pre-emptive or panicked? I have voiced suspicions of you since before OMG was even gone and with OMG (and subsequently MiteyMouse) gone...you are my top suspect. And I gave numerous reasons for my suspicions. Nothing panicked about it. You on the other hand have a very weak defense/case against me...especially considering the biggest thing I've done to add to you suspcions of me is the editting I invalidated at the beginning of this post.

1. You definitely mentioned Pablo at the beginning of the game, but you rarely mention him (other than your scumlists) until Day 2 when he started mentioning your inconsistencies and scumminess.

Um....I mentioned him in my initial analysis (post 107), ranked in my scum list (post 109), post 114 where I also don’t rule anyone out, (post 131) where I describe suspicions of MM (and exhibit my trait for impatience), and (post 171) where I reiterate suspicions towards Pablo and MM...and ask them questions (scumhunting) which went unanswered...which MM was prodded to do in post 212. Pablo never was off my list and once OMG and MM were gone he went to the top of my list (hence the long debates we had on Day two).

2. Reading you in iso, you can find that your suspicions lie with T-chan, Pablo and OMG in this post. This is the one and only time you voice your suspicion of T-chan. You then mention your suspicion of MM here. You post another list of who you think is scummiest here. Then miraculously both of your suspects are gone, and you are free to focus on Pablo.

What is your point? People get lynched...when they wind up town you move on to the next suspect. If I was scum it would not be in my best interests to NK one of the people voting for and for which I may have been the only one casting suspicions on. But that would be using common sense which does escape some people. You seem to agree with your predecessors point of view on a few things....what about her comments re: building a case on Pablo?

3. Where specifically is his case weak? My guess is that you did not read the whole thing because you only think he's making a case on you based on the editting you did of his posts.

He stated himself the biggest suspicion he had on me was the editing of his posts:

The biggest thing you've done today to add to my preexisting suspicion is selectively edit quotes for your non-existent arguments.

As I have mentioned several times which a few select individuals are having trouble registering....I re-addressed my points on Pablo at the request of Paltry who said “line up exactly what parts of Pablo's posts you see as hypocritical.” How is that scummy? <shaking head in amazement>

I thought TC made some good observations on DN but when I looked closer I think I came to some of the same conclusions Bob has used in DN's defense. I'm not convinced DN is mafia.

I sense distancing.

I didn’t get it right on OMG...at the time I made these comments TC had confirmed DN was scum...I did not have the same advantage and as such was “not convinced DN” was mafia. I was also focusing my attentions on Pablo and my growing suspicions of ABR.

One thing I'd like to point out is that MM highly suspected fitz on Day 1 & died Night 1 and then ABR did the same on Day 2 & died Night 2.

It’s part of the game...as I have said....it would be pretty suicidal to just go after people who were focusing on me. It would be a smart scum IMO that would eliminate players that were either very townish or whose exit would implicate others.

On Havingfitz

That sucks that ABR was the doctor. If the doctor had made it through the night town would have been guaranteed the win. Now a town win is more like 50-50 unless TC guessed right during the night. As she had a 1-4 chance of investigating the right person I hope she chose wisely.

I love a bowl of WIFOM first thing in the morning.

How is stating my opinion WIFOM? How is this a good or bad statement?

I'm not sure how I'm feeling about this 1v1 between Paltry and Pablo, because I really don't suspect either and I'm getting the feeling of two townies going at it.

The town is in trouble. You incorrectly cast negatives on me for tunnelling and not looking at others when you are presenting a perfect example of it here. On the odds that I do go today...I suggest you start refining your positions on Paltry and Pablo because you’ll need it.


Now on to Starbuck's new laundry list of questions for me....

[havingfitz]

Btw, telling me to re-read when I just reread the whole game is rather redundant. I have the game fresh in my head, and I highlighted everything I found scummy of you and now I have to go back and repeat myself again to you.

It’s not redundant to ask if it is apparently required. You bring up a long list of items others had already brought up and which I had answered to. I don’t have new answers to them...if there is something specific about my answers that you want clarity on please ask...otherwise my responses have already been made on most of your points.

1. By typical, I mean that you can normally find scum right in the middle of the wagon. Typically the third vote in a Newbie Game. Way to get what I was saying wrong.

You got it wrong (a trend in itself)...I knew what you meant. My point was that since you place merit in the fact the third vote is typically scummy (ie it fits a trend)...you should also place merit on other things that typically take place...which I provide an example of....essentially...that it is atypical (meaning out of the ordinary) for scum to both be on a Day one town lynch....80% in the sampling of ten complete Newbie games that I took. If you want to object feel free to look in some games and do your own analysis. BTW...in the ten games I sampled...only two had scum in the 3rd spot...where are you getting your facts from?

2. So you are admitting to parroting and the fact that everyone else built a case and you figured you'd ride it out. You can accept others' cases, but you ALWAYS build your own and you never ride on the cases of others. That's scummy.

I have no idea what you are saying here. I was bringing up the point that you are using parroting as a negative indicator...and are accusing people (myself and others) of parroting off TC and Pablo’s suspicions of OMG...and accuse me directly of it in post 489. Yet it is ok for you to base your analysis on the comments of others. You can parrot but when others do it it’s a negative. Hypocrite.

3. The thought never crossed your mind of "Maybe OMGL could be town?". I highly doubt this as you were definitely looking for an easy lynch.

The thought OMG was town did enter my mind. Just as the possibility of everyone begin scum did. How ‘typically’ does town get it right on Day one? And don’t put words in my mouth or think for me...I was not looking for anything easy.

4. Ronnie didn't know OMG's alignment and she disagreed with it, but no one stopped to even hear what she said. She took the EXACT stance I would have taken if I started this game from the beginning.

OK...how does the fact no one heard what roo said relate to me specifically. You are singling me out for something you acknowledge everyone did. In my case...roo was not high on my list, I took note of her comments but did not feel the need to comment on them. BTW...since you would have played it just like her...her stance was also that a case was merited against Pablo. Thoughts on that?

5. How is entrance onto a wagon scummy? I already explained this in the post that you refer to. You wanted to lynch OMGL quickly because you DID NOT want a replacement to come in to redeem him.

And I have explained this in detail. What about my defense do you disagree with? Is there ever a good time for an L-1 vote? Or hammer?

6. Where did I say that every L-1, L-2, and hammer vote is scummy? I NEVER said that. I only said that you going out of your way to point out that you wouldn't be suspect of whoever hammers was suspicious. Nice try on twisting my words.

You QFT Pablo when he said my “dropping the hammer was incredibly scummy,” and you state the L-2 vote is the typical scum third vote, and you call my vote (at L-1) on OMG “a very opportunistic jump onto the OMGL wagon” And I didn’t claim you were taking that position...I was asking you if you were? (But you have cast negative implications in each situation)

7. How is it negative? You tunnel straight on OMG all day. You mention other suspects maybe once or twice, but all you do is talk about OMG like he made such a huge mistake. He was such an easy lynch that you took it, no questions asked because you knew that no matter what the replacement said, you'd still vote/hammer him, which you did.

I mentioned other suspects more than once or twice....get your numbers/facts straight. I have already addressed my suspicions/vote on OMG and my reasons for voting Ray. You are like a skipping record.

8. What are you talking about that I'm using points brought up by others? If someone else already pointed out something before I did, that's good. I'm glad they caught it when it happened. It doesn't make you any less scummy.

“Doesn’t make you less scummy?” Does it make you more scummy? You use it as a negative towards me. You call it parroting. I agree...if someone brings up a good point before you do...it’s worth consideration.

9. Following the crowd is when you just go along with it without adding anything new to the case, and you didn't add anything to the case already on OMG. DeathNote was sitting there all day on Day 1, scummy as all hell, and you let that slip right past you because you were too busy focusing on an inactive player, OR you were trying to cover for DeathNote.

There was not a boatload of material on OMG but it was day one and there was more (IMO) than there was on the others. (As apparently 2-3 others thought...not counting DN).

10. You say you had other suspects, but you don't focus on your other "suspects" who were active as hard as you focus on the inactive OMGL. You were so focused on OMGL's inactivity that you never noticed DeathNote's inactivity.

I focus on players but do not ignore others. There is only one vote to be given each day and I want it to go to my top suspect.

11. At that point in the game, you DID NOT know that T-C was a cop. So to use that now is quite WIFOM-y.

I’m not commenting from that point in the game...I’m commenting on the hindsight we both share on TC that at that point in the game...since she was not scum...she was obviously was not defending me as a scumbuddy...which I inferred from your dislike of the fact that you believed she was defending me.

12. About Ray being right, I guess you don't understand sarcasm?

I have a blackbelt in sarcasm...your comments towards Ray’s DN suspicions give no indication of sarcasm. You basically tell him he got it right and dispel the fact he also said he had no real read on DN (as was the case with some of the rest of us).

13. Your post to Ray definitely did not read to me as joking.

Another example of your faulty interpretations. Even Ray responded in a light hearted manner. Reacher.

14. Pablo hit the nail on the head with the fact that you wanted to lynch OMGL before a replacement was found, pretty much silencing anything that the replacement would say. I already read your explanation on your FOS, but you already had insinuated that you did not care what the replacement had to say because it would do little to sway your vote. So your unvote and FOS just made you look scummier.

Addressed

multiple

times in this game and once again....brought up again by you. Maybe this will help...

OMG was my main suspect and I gave RayFrost longer than anyone to defend himself and he did not do it adequately and in fact cast further suspicion on himself with the point TC brought up right before I hammered him.

15. Why would you assume that both scum would be on the lynch? Just because it didn't happen in your previous games, doesn't mean that it didn't/couldn't happen here.

I did not make any assumption. I make an observation based on games that have completed. Where do you get your trend analysis from? You reference typical vote patterns...so do I. If you can point out that it’s typical for scum to place the third vote (which I see no evidence of)...then I can bring up the point that it is atypical for both scum to vote town on day one (which I provide evidence of).

16. So you go and list the 3 people who didn't vote for Ray and include Ray on the list? Come on dude, a townie isn't going to give in to their lynch. Nor give the scum the satisfaction of hammering themselves.

“a townie isn't going to give in to their lynch” What does that have to do with my point? Obviously a scum isn’t going to either....so the fact my top three suspects were all off the Ray bandwagon in my mind signalled that at least one of them was scum. And after two of them wound up town....the spotlight got even brighter IMO on Pablo.

17. So how was ABR confirmed town?

I answered this. Let me quote my comments verbatim...” With Almightybob’s vote on ABR prior to TC coming out...ABR was practically confirmed town (unless he was bussing) so a confirmed town was the logical move for the remaining scum to make.” Not confirmed...but practically confirmed...at least IMO.

18. I have read your posts. I JUST READ THE ENTIRE FREAKING GAME. When you are that far along in the game, you give the courtesy of either directly linking to a post that you are referring to, or quoting it. You don't just give post numbers.

You have your posting style...I have mine. Since you are tunnelling me I’m sure you view it as a scum-tell.

19. The first moment I read OMGL's posts. I automatically got the feeling of a frustrated townie. You took his lurking out of the game as a scum tell and you are trying to use the same point in your case against Pablo.

Re: OMG...as did others. Remember...parroting can apparently be a good thing sometimes.
Re: Pablo...he lobbied against inactivity and then declared he was going to ride out the first few pages and then comes out later that it’s not his style...encourages others to be more active and then he is the most inactive in the game.

20. You keep pointing me to other posts which I've already read. Obviously, they didn't do much or I still wouldn't be wanting you to elaborate!

If your reading comprehension was better I wouldn’t have to.

I also love how you are trying so hard to make a case on me when T-C already confirmed me as town.

I am not making a case on you being scum. This is another comprehension failure. I am making a case for your shortcomings as a detective and defending the points you are raising (and in most cases re-raising) against me.

Where did I parrot?

If someone made the point I would have made if I was in this game from the beginning during the time of a certain post you made, I will definitely give them props for it.

Also, when a replacement replaces in and does an analysis, it's called that for a reason.

I still don't see where I'm parroting. I read through the game and pointed out what I thought was good and what I thought was scummy. That's what you do with an ANALYSIS. Also, 17 or 18 pages is nothing compared to the number of pages I normally catch up on when I replace into a game.

I have come up with my own case on you based on your actions. Now you are appealing to emotion big time.

As this is the first game I have seen the term parroting referred to maybe I am not getting it right. I assumed when you said everyone was parroting off TC and Pablo’s points on OMG...that you were saying we were using points that had already been raised. Which you are doing repeatedly to attempt to justify your suspicions on me and which indicates it is not your own case...it is a conglomeration of facts others have brought up a few new points added (which you have the benefit of reams of info whereas in Day one there is significantly less to go on). Open to clarification from others...

IC?

1. He pretty much opens it up like he's rather aghast that the town lost the doctor, and makes it well known that town would be guaranteed a win if the doc was alive. Scum normally fake being upset about losing a PR during the night.

2. I think it is a point against havingfitz especially because I think he's scum. He could have easily just been keeping all of the focus on OMGL so that DeathNote could slip by unnoticed.

“Scum normally fake being upset about losing a PR during the night.” LoL....where do you pull this info from? Do you have examples of this? How many? how often does this happen? How does town usually responded after a PR is lost? Reach reach reach reach. You think everything is a point against me because you are blind to the possibility that someone else is scum.

This is a standard scumtell:

Finding Mafia - at the bottom of the page, under "Day 2+ Mafia Errors".

Care to expound on your potentially necessary vote preferences between Pablo and Paltry?

[havingfitz]

Before I answer all of this, are you really trying to make a case on someone who's CONFIRMED?

As I state above:

20.

You keep pointing me to other posts which I've already read.

Obviously, they didn't do much or I still wouldn't be wanting you to elaborate!

If your reading comprehension was better I wouldn’t have to.

I also love how you are trying so hard to make a case on me when T-C already confirmed me as town.

I am not making a case on you being scum. This is another comprehension failure. I am making a case for your shortcomings as a detective and defending the points you are raising (and in most cases re-raising) against me.

[havingfitz]

havingfitz, did you see the mod's response to your question at the bottom of 526? Do you still think I'm as blind as you think I am?

Yes…as proven by the fact I had to answer a question, again, from you (post 527) in my post 528 that I had

just

answered in post 526. And my comment about you being blind was in reference to the fact you have IMO not even given the distinct possibility that I am town any consideration and therefore everything out of the ordinary in this game makes me guaranteed scum to you…which I will point out was apparently a bad thing when people were accusing me of it. You still haven’t answered some of the questions I have asked you and you have not given your thoughts on many the points I have made in my numerous defenses. My primary targets in this game have been OMG and Pablo and while I have not wavered from them…I have at least looked at all of the other players and expressed my thoughts on them at some point. On the chance that you are mistaken and I am not scum….what are your thoughts on Pablo and Paltry? Are you prepared to decide between them?

And btw, a lot of your questions, about the 3rd person on the bandwagon being mafia and what not is all in that link the mod provided.

What “a lot of my questions” are you referring to? The wiki article justs says something about giving the 3rd vote on day one 10 (?) pts (or something like that). While the link is an interesting read, (which I had not reviewed), IMO it’s more of a guideline of possible signs of scum. If that is what you were using as the basis for your comments about Deathnote voting in the typical scum 3rd slot, uh…ok. That doesn’t take away from the following points or questions I raised from that comment. Also, I did not see scum typically voting 3rd in my sampling of games provided…which was the basis for my point that if typical vote positions (ie trends) are something you find value in (as well as the numbers you requested and made no mention of on the Pablo inactivity issue)…then what about the trend I illustrated where it is unlikely for both scum to be on a day one lynch of town (which would point to Pablo I might add)? If those possible tells were accurate more often than not…scum would just refer to them and consistenly do the opposite.

I am not particularly convinced by the case on havingfitz... It's not easy to see when rereading, but when havingfitz dropped his weird L-1 on OMGLyncher the game had stalled -- iirc we were literally getting one post every three days or something! >_< I remember feeling very frustrated and impatient at that point, so I didn't find it a stretch to believe that fitz felt the same way~

Agreed (of course) and what is iirc?

On the other hand, Starbuck has pointed out many times where havingfitz is just...

strange!

o_O Some of his posts are "off", like the PR-complaints. When I tried to failbluff at the beginning of the day, havingfitz definitely had the "strangest" reaction. This isn't something that I would lynch for, but it gives my gut funny feelings... but I will reconsider him.

What posts are you referring to and what did youfind strange about them? Just curious. And if I need to explain anything let me know.

On the other hand, after deciding that havingfitz is her prime suspect, Starbuck sees every single thing that fitz posts as scummy.

I definitely think I caught you, and you are upset about it. Nice appeal to emotion though, it's a good try, but a failure.

I'm sure others got more emotional than havingfitz... @_@;;

I’m sure as well. Exactly…how is town supposed to act when confronted with the overwhelming opinion by the key vote holder that they are scum? Speaking of emotion…in posts 458 and 459, Pablo requests a meta on him to prove he gets “passionate/pissed when I'm town”…TC produces an epic blow up by Pablo when he is frustrated at the game…and he was scum. Pablo claimed he would go off and find some examples of blowups when he wass town…but if he ever produced them I did not see them.

Going back to the D2 fitz vs Pablo... maybe it's just me, but why is hypocrisy a scumtell? o_O;; I don't get it. havingfitz made a pretty bad case against Pablo, but you don't lynch people for making bad cases, especially not in newbie games. =_=; Admittedly I paid the exchange less attention than I should have since I had a guilty on DeathNote and was planning to claim.

My case against Pablo was bad I thought it was good myself.

PaltryExcuse, I really hope you're town. O_O;

I hope so too as if Pablo goes today and it comes down to me or Paltry tomorrow…apparently Starbuck has her mind set.

[havingfitz]

I do have my mind set. I really haven't liked any of your replies or how overdefensive you have become.

I've read over what you wrote, but I just started class on Tues night which is why I haven't given a super huge verbose answer yet. I definitely feel that you are the last scum.

What haven’t you liked in my responses? How have I been over defensive (or appealed to emotion)? I have pointed out your shortcomings as a detective and lack of attention to what has been written…sure. But then again I also have the advantage of knowing whether you are right or not.

Also, I have had the courtesy to respond to most, if not all, of your questions and points while you have not done the same for me. Good points I have made have gone ignored, points based on opinion have been tossed aside or maintained as negatives towards me, and a reread of your 3 days of analysis shows you have failed to give Pablo or Paltry anywhere near as much attention as you gave me.

The fact that you come into a game that is this far along and have apparantly not given any weight to where the other players' suspicions lie...other players who have had the benefit of the entire game and it's flow to formulate their suspicions shows shortsight and narrow-mindedness. At least I have looked at others besides OMG/Ray and Pablo.

In addition to any of my questions that weren't answered that I may be overlooking, I would be interested in your view on:

- The proof of Pablo's inactivity (as requested by you) despite his encouragement to all to be active

- Despite accusations I did not give Ray a chance to reply...the fact I gave him longer than anyone and the fact that he did not in fact produce any defense of value (as admitted by him)...and the fact two of the other players still in the game were also on that vote. Why am I continuing to be singled out on the OMG/Ray vote?

- As you referenced typical voting habits (as apparently illustrated by the wiki)...your thoughts on my 10 completed game analyis (where town went on day one) that showed 8 of 10 did not have both scum on the day one lynch.

- My response re: the editting I did of Pablo's posts during my exchange with him...doe the fact I was fulfilling a request by Paltry to use exact 'parts' of Pablo's posts to support my argument mitigate that negative?

- Pablo's emotional outbreak which he attributes his passionate/pissed attitude to how he acts when he is town....when the only example provided (by TC) was of him having a similar outburst when he was scum. And no examples of similar outbreaks when town have been provided by Pablo...despite his stated intentions to find some.

- In your analysis of the three days...you focused on me more than any of the other suspects...I saw some concerns with a few of Paltry's posts, and what seemed to me to be complete disregard...a hall pass to Pablo for anything he may have done. If it comes down to the two of them...what are your thoughts?

[havingfitz]

They are less reliable in Newbie games, yes, but still have to be considered, don't you think? Fitz also has more than 1 game to his name.

I had been in only one game prior to this one and replaced into my third game after Almightybob was lynched. So did I have more than one game to my name when I made my day one and two exchanges with you? Yes....by one. [And I'll like my case against you until your role is revealed by vote or game over].

As for your townie blow up examples...I would consider the 3rd one a decent example but none of the others. Still does not take away from the fact TC amended your passionate/pissed when a townie comments to show an excellent example of you going off when you were scum.

[havingfitz]

That game in which I was scum was anger due to lack of activity in the game. Go back and look at the total length of that game. Awful. This game's frustration has come out of being voted for via weak cases and others misunderstanding my cases, which falls right into my Meta.

In that post by itself it's not obvious what the deeper reasons of your blowup are...it's just in response to someone else's thoughts on an exchange you had had. Not sure the reasons for either blow up matter. They just cancel each other out in re: to your comment about getting pissed when you are town when it can also be shown you do the same thing as scum.

[havingfitz]

I am not particularly convinced by the case on havingfitz... It's not easy to see when rereading, but when havingfitz dropped his weird L-1 on OMGLyncher the game had stalled -- iirc we were literally getting one post every three days or something! >_< I remember feeling very frustrated and impatient at that point, so I didn't find it a stretch to believe that fitz felt the same way~

Hence why I find the strongest point against fitz is Starbuck's argument nothing RayFrost could do would sway fitz's opinion. I'm still thinking about this one.?

I think it is wrong for people to speculate on whether I would have voted for Ray if he had given a good defense. Since he didn't (by his own admission) I voted him out after giving him more time than anyone else to make a defense. Iirc even Pablo would have hammered OMG. I gave Ray time to defend and he did not to a degree worth reconsidering my stance (and apparently for 4-5 others as well).

There's a difference between defensiveness and OVERdefensiveness.

What are signs of overdefensiveness vs. a defense in your opinion?

Good luck getting answers to your questions.

[havingfitz]

havingfitz

:arrow: His case against Pablo D2 wasn't that great. I'm more inclined to attribute that to inexperience than anything else... I've taken a look at his first game and he pretty much spend the entire time going "?????" before he got lynched! ._.

Hey! I still like my case on Pablo. And in my first game I think I did all right. I didn't lynch any town and voted for scum on Day one and therefore got NK'd due to my suspicions towards scum.

Pablo Molinero

:arrow: I do think that his D3 attempt against PaltryExcuse and havingfitz is pretty weak, even if I don't like to lynch people for that. (But hey, I can if you guys insist it is a scumtell...) He somehow gets it from somewhere that both scum HAD to be on the OMGLyncher wagon and therefore one of PE or fitz must be scum! o_O;; Mislynches are scum-driven? Sure, that's why DeathNote was on it... Afterwards, he goes "I'm townie because scum vote for townies."

In regards to Pablo...he has not really paid much atention to me IMO on Day three and had shifted his focus on Paltry (as evidenced by their long exchanges and the vote on Paltry). As soon as Starbuck comes in with both guns blazing on me (shooting blanks I might add)..he immediately flips back to me when Starbuck 'reminds him' of his earlier case on me...even though he had changed his opinion of me based on my case towards him

(see Post 358)

. I think the term used throughout this game is 'opportunistic scum'? Pablo thinking both scum were on the wagon only benefits him as he is the only unconfirmed player left who was not on the wagon. I would argue, and have, that it is more common for both scum to not be on a townie day one lynch. I gave examples supporting this. No one has commented on those examples. Also, his entire analysis on the day one lynch is ridiculously weak and completely self serving. His complete disregard for any stance on Almightybob is worth noting and his defense of that complete disregard is his attentions are focused on ABR. Well my attentions were focused on ABR as well (who admittedly had some good points against him, no defense for my suspicions of him, and whose posts did not impress Starbuck) and yet I found time to give my thoughts on almightybob and TC's case on him. I may very well be wrong on Pablo but I think he has the strongest case for being scum. And I might add...I have consistently felt that way for most of the game and not been wishy-washy with my votes.

On a side note....@Paltry. Someone had asked everyone what their experience was with Mafia. I couldn't find your response. Could you answer that question? Thanks.

@Starbuck...still no comments on any of my questions to you? Especially the last set in Post 539?

And last question (for this post). How do you insert a link directly to a quote? I have managed to link to a page starting with the desired quote but I think that is a work around.

[havingfitz]

On a side note....@Paltry. Someone had asked everyone what their experience was with Mafia. I couldn't find your response. Could you answer that question? Thanks.

@Paltry....disregard the question above. I found your response (to your own question in fact...d'oh!).

[havingfitz]

I'm still not convinced that havingfitz is scummier than Pablo.... @_@;;

Vote: Pablo Molinero

I just hope we're right on Pablo and he flips scum since Starbuck has her sights locked on me and if she's forced to choose between me and Paltry on day four....Paltry will have played a good game and scum will be in line to win.

BTW Starbucks...you mentioned the military in an earlier post and now you are telling us you're in the Navy (which of course is already obvious from your profile)) . Wouldn't bringing your military service into the game be considered introducing an outside alliance? I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I'm just genuinely curious for basic knowledge and since you aren't the only military member in the game.

[havingfitz]

Why would the fact that I'm in the Navy (and have been for the past 6 years) have anything to do with an online forum game?

You really do have a hard time answering questions from me...don't you Starbuck. As evidenced by a question for an answer and the several outstanding questions I have towards you. If you don't want to give me your interpretation of a game rule just say so. Like I said...I was just curious why your military affiliation was something that needed mentioned in the game and if you

(or VRK for that matter)

thought it was allowed within the game.

Hopefully you don't have the same problem with requests from me that you do with questions.

-- If Pablo is being truthful with his last post...at least give me the courtesy of making my case on Paltry before you go through with your chiseled in stone vote for me.

I'll wait to go to the trouble until VRK confirms but we have all put too much effort into this game to see it go down as a quick loss to scum.

[havingfitz]

...No really, why the hell should it matter?

Is that you Starbuck?

You are definitely trying to start up an issue where there isn't one. Most people that play with me regularly know that I'm in the military and that I'm currently stationed in Sicily. I'm Active Duty in the United States Navy and this week was my PRT, along with the fact that I am working on my Associate's Degree on my off time as well. People do have lives outside of Mafiascum, and yes, I did not get a chance to get up my reply to you before today.

I was working on my reply to you when T-chan voted Pablo. I still haven't finished it (as I work on all my replies in Notepad) and I will reply to you after we see what Pablo flips. I definitely do not think that he is scum, and more than likely if you are, you will kill me tonight.

How am I trying to start up an issue? I'm asking for a rules interpretation from you (or VRK) in regards to bringing outside allegiances into the game? I didn't think it was allowed. It really is a simple question with no hidden agenda. Don't be so paranoid. I don't care if Pablo answers as the IC but I don't need a "why the hell from him". Asking a simplae question should get a simple answer. Try answering it first and then asking why instead of all the questions for questions.

Also..you can't be serious about you not surviving the night. That makes as much sense as you tunnelling of me. And no comment on my request?

[havingfitz]

T-c....you played very well IMO and it's too bad we couldn't have made your good work pay off.

Pablo...we both thought the other was scum. Both wrong. I enjoyed playing with you and hopefully have learned a few things even in a losing effort.

Paltry. Great game. I maintained a level of suspicion towards you (the too townie gut feel) but spent my time on people who gave me more to work with. My bad.

I definitely could have played better and need to keeper a wider view of the game.

Starbuck....

-- If Pablo is being truthful with his last post...at least give me the courtesy of making my case on Paltry before you go through with your chiseled in stone vote for me.

I'll wait to go to the trouble until VRK confirms but we have all put too much effort into this game to see it go down as a quick loss to scum.

....you condemned me from the start. Did not want anything to do with my defense and did not even consider the possibility that you were wrong. Very disheartening after such a good start by the town. I am speechless and can not believe you did not even give me the chance I asked for above. A great town effort tossed to the side.

As for the allegiance question...I am also in the military and earlier in the game I had almost mentioned something in that regard. I didn't because of this line in the rules:

Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes

threats, bribes, wagers, promises,

alliances

, etc.

My question to you was not intended to 'start anything' or infer anything negative. Since you had mentioned your military affiliation (which I took as an allegiance ... or as te rule mentions, alliance) I was simply asking for your take on the rule. I thought you had played a bit longer than you have so maybe I should have just posed it directly to the IC or VRK but I think that would have come across worse than just asking you. That went wrong.


As for everyone else in the game...it was a pleasure.

[havingfitz]

@havingfitz: DN and I wanted to take you as far as we could due to the craziness on Day 1. Even though Day 1 was moving slow, that vote put a huge target on you for the rest of the game.

Now that's an endorsement I could live without.

I did think I put a fair sized target on myself with my efforts towards OMG and my comments about not suspecting the hammer vote. Once Mitey and then ABR got NK'ed...both of whom had voted for me...I had a feeling I was being set up a bit for later. I almost asked to get lynched in day three so that it would come down to Pablo and you since Starbuck seemed set on lynching me. In hindsight I wish I had self voted to end day three.

[havingfitz]

Paltry...re: my questions about when mafia knows their partner role. Since you knew DN was a roleblocker did that 50-50 chance there was a cop and doc affect your play any...did you suspect TC was a cop and did it cause you to try and distance yourself from almightybob/DN? Why did you NK ABR?

[havingfitz]

In fact, it is usually the better option for the Townie to get lynched out of the game, especially if it will eliminate him as a possible suspect going forward. This is especially true when the Townie has done a lot of scummy things and the scum are likely to use him as a scapegoat if he survives until the endgame.
......................If you screw up so badly that you’re distracting the Town from finding scum, I believe your best bet is to get lynched and give the Town a chance tomorrow.
By no means should you just roll over and admit defeat – fight like hell. Make the scum work to lynch you.

Just re-read this. I fought like hell too long after having admittedly a lot of scummy actions that could point suspicion on me. Even with the fight like hell push I wish I had deferred to the lynch on day three since the lynch on day four was more of a foregone conclusion than I imagined it could/would be.

[havingfitz]

fitz

: No idea what the whole military debacle was about, and it seemed to derail scumhunting towards the end of the Day.

I thought you played well almightybob. A valiant effort that only a cop could take away. As for the military thing...it came up after Pablo was lynched so it didn't affect scumhunting.

[havingfitz]

Although I suppose if I started policy-lynching English people that would count too

As a colonial living in the UK...I could live with the policy-lynching you refer to.

Where do you live in Scotland. I spent a week in Aug up there.

[havingfitz]

Just wondering fitz, during your re-read, did you notice my response to DN's infamous 'nothing serious' post? I think I might've been lynched if that was brought forward D3.

Yes. Not sure it would have got you lynched alone but it at least closed the gap between us with respect to our suspicions (mine real...yours fabricatd) towards OMG.

[havingfitz]

I think Roo's replacement just meant that scum helped DN get by and since we both worked to get OMG voted off...and her focus was on me...I don't think your comments would have been that big a deal. They may have helped had therre been any day four discussions but I don't think they were different enough from anything I was saying to shift the target to you.

[havingfitz]

It hit me that we were in LYLO when I was at dinner.

You're saying you didn't realize we were in LYLO when you made your vote? I don't believe that for one second. Even I will give you more credit than that. You were just set on voting me. Even if we weren't in LYLO that quick a vote was uncalled for. You just pulled the rug out of ~seven weeks of the town's efforts. Admit it.

[havingfitz]

It hit me that we were in LYLO when I was at dinner.

You're saying you didn't realize we were in LYLO when you made your vote? I don't believe that for one second. Even I will give you more credit than that. You were just set on voting me. Even if we weren't in LYLO that quick a vote was uncalled for. You just pulled the rug out of ~seven weeks of the town's efforts. Admit it.

Ok this is unnecessary - take it easy fitz. You're not a mind reader, so I think benefit of the doubt is due here.

Agreed...I'm not a mind reader.

I agree it would be good to hear from Starbuck...especially since we now know she is town and is set to play the deciding vote in Day 4 if we don't get it right today. Please get into the game Starbuck....

You did replace confirmed town and if this game goes to day four....you hold the deciding vote.

Her role is pivitol (if we don't get today's vote right)

I just hope we're right on Pablo and he flips scum since Starbuck has her sights locked on me and if she's forced to choose between me and Paltry on day four....Paltry will have played a good game and scum will be in line to win.

-- If Pablo is being truthful with his last post...at least give me the courtesy of making my case on Paltry before you go through with your chiseled in stone vote for me.
I'll wait to go to the trouble until VRK confirms but we have all put too much effort into this game to see it go down as a quick loss to scum.

.... Nope, you guys are going into LyLo. Good luck, Starbuck.

I admit I'm frustrated at the way day three transpired and day four started but I at least think Starbuck should elaborate on what her thought processes were and not attribute the day four quick vote to not knowing we were in LYLO. And there is no need to call anyone names. I'm not trying to make anything personal...I've giving my opinion on game events.

I'm enjoying everyone's post game comments and hope to file them away and would be just as interested in SB's if they had any content to them. Sorry and I forgot isn't a whole lot to take away from the key player at game's end.

I've enjoyed both games I have played in but there is more room for improvement (for me) than I care to admit.

[havingfitz]

Where do you live in Scotland. I spent a week in Aug up there.

Edinburgh for uni, originally from Glasgow. Take it you were at the Festival then?

Yes...we went to teh Festival. Stayed most of the time south of St Andrews (near Pittenweem). Loved it up there.

Cheers

[havingfitz]

I still think the case on you was much weaker than the one on fitz. Sorry fitz, but that's just your inexperience talking. It will improve

No need to apologize to me. I knew I was town whereas I didn't know Pablo was...so I wasn't going to target myself. I was surprised I didn't get more negative attention with the OMG push...the hammer pass...Mitey and ABR both voting me and getting NK'd and my uncertainty about DN/almightybob being scum. I thought I did good to get Pablo lynched over me. I didn't really think he had any major tells...just between he and Paltry, he had the longer list of possible tells to me.