Newbie 843 (Game Over)

[Zachrulez]

/confirm

[Zachrulez]

Vote: lrd

For not having an avatar.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, this isn't really going anywhere.

Unvote: Vote: Meji

Bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagoning.

[Zachrulez]

Ah yes, sorry about not posting yet - things have been rather busy for me over the weekend, but it should be smooth sailing from here.

I'm admittedly new to this game, save for a few games IRL a loooooong ago and more recently in IRC, but I still haven't quite gotten the hang of the first day of play. I mean, really, am I supposed to make a sound judgement on who's scum from a page of one-line replies? The thing to do on the first day, at least judging from the other games on this fine forum that I've been reading, is to stimulate discussion, try and get a good conversation going, and see if we can't get the scum to at least drop a small tell. Obviously randomly lynching someone is sub-optimal, and as david-villa-7 noted above me, the time for random voting is over.

So, in the interest of stimulating discussion, I'd like to ask a question that I'd always wanted to ask on the first day, but I never see it done.

If you were scum, who would you vote for?

I think it's a decent question because it adds an additional layer of subtext, and for scum it may prove somewhat more difficult to navigate. Now, if I were scum, with the limited information I currently have, I'd most likely vote for the most vocal person, so long as it doesn't put them at L-2 or higher - got to avoid suspicion, you know. The fact that the most vocal person has already voted for me cements it: I would probably vote for Soyasushi.

Now in reality, I would probably vote for one of the guys that haven't posted yet. People who don't post are generally below the radar of the lynching mob, at least on day one, and they may be trying to lay low until someone calls them out on their lurking. WrathofShadows, for instance, is someone I would conceivably vote for. However, I'm going to withhold my vote for now, as it's entirely possible he's just had a busy weekend, not unlike myself. =P

Anyway, c'mon - let's get talking and see if we can't dig up something.

Well this post is just odd. It's going to be interesting analyzing your voting patterns as the day goes forward I reckon.

[Zachrulez]

Welcome to the game Crazypianist!

[Zachrulez]

Any better ideas for what to do that early in day 1?

What's suspicious about an early bandwagon in RVS? I have found it can be a good way to trigger discussion as it tends to get exactly the kind of reaction you gave to it.

Yernab's post 50 is basically him trying to say what he would and wouldn't do as town vs scum. Those kind of posts aren't good for discussion cause of all the WIFOM involved.

Besides, you can't really know what you would do as scum until you are scum, and if you are scum, there's no way you're going to answer that question without trying to mislead the town anyway.

[Zachrulez]

a LoS is a bit anti-town imo, it provides target for scum to mislynch and kill.

Isn't this kind of mindset a bit anti-discussion? Want to go into detail about why suspicion lists bother you?

[Zachrulez]

@Zach- I'm in agreement with manho on this one. A list is more likely to put people on the defensive as well as allowing the mafia to see exactly where people have drawn the lines in their heads about other players. This hurts the town more than the scum, since town gets defensive and scum sees just who they can target to cause the most chaos and/or avoid suspicion

Town gets defensive and scum does not? We draw the lines in our heads anyway when we take positions, mafia can already see more than we can. If we don't explicitly state who we find suspicious, mafia benefits, not town.

Afterall, scum have to fake their suspicions do they not?

(I'm not trying to say you should make a complete list of where every player stands in your head, but a top 2-3 works pretty good.)

[Zachrulez]

Town gets defensive and scum does not?

I wasn't saying the scum doesn't go on defense, my point was that a list puts more information out on the town than on the scum. Gives em a free shot if things match up enough between different people.
Suppose there are a couple people that others seem suspicious about. The mafia may use that to their advantage to remove the competition without ever exposing themself/themselves.
THAT is my problem with using scumlists in the first place.

BTW, Vulcan Mode, from what i can figure, is a complete and utter lack of emotion

Is a vote not the beginning of a suspicion list with the general idea that the person you are voting for is your top suspect?

Not making scumlists isn't going to keep the scum from knowing who you find suspicious unless you're not noting suspicious actions and not scum hunting outright.

[Zachrulez]

I need to catch up on the posts written over the weekend and today. I will try to post again later tonight.

[Zachrulez]

I'm not liking how Wraithofshadow's suspicions of etherealcookie just seemed to spring up out of thin air after ethereal voted him.

[Zachrulez]

I admit that my vote is 25% retaliation. But still it strikes me odd that he's so focused on one or two people (mainly manho, tubby and me) which accounts for the other 75% of why i placed my vote the way i did. I've got three ideas for scum at this point.

@Zach- i'd like to hear more about your opinions on the subject, so far i've seen very little from you other than "i'm reading up" and "yea, that looks weird"

I tend to try to keep my focus on a few people as well. I don't see why that is so problematic. If other players don't look scummy, you tend to not find much worth saying about them. In general noting that they look town to you is not a good idea either, hence you end up focusing on what looks off to you.

What subject do you want my opinions on? "The subject" is a bit vague.

[Zachrulez]

I don't really see any problem with Manho's Wraith vote. I can understand the reasoning for it and his vote for Tubby was much earlier in the game.

[Zachrulez]

Unvote, Vote: Wraith

Not wanting people to do scumlists is a style of play that tends to stifle scumhunting and is an anti-town position. Sure, the scum could take advantage of information we discuss, but scum have the advantage anyway. Discussion is vital to the town's success, and scumlists are one of the best ways a lot of players find to communicate their stances.

I am also disliking how suddenly suspicious he became of ethereal only after Ethereal voted for him. I'd be interested to know what Wraith thought of Ethereal before Ethereal voted for him, but that presents the problem of whether I could take Wraith at his word for it.

[Zachrulez]

There's a few people we need to hear from that need to commit to a position.

Let's not forget that the deadline is 3 days away now.

[Zachrulez]

2 days to the deadline.

I'm happy with my Wraith vote, just to make sure that's clear.

[Zachrulez]

I generally never see the plus side of talking very much in twilight.

I tend to find it smartest to say little to nothing at all.

[Zachrulez]

Okay, Im definitely looking at bfl, first one to get to speculating on the doc is suspicious, not entirely unlike 'congratulating the doctor'

how/why is it suspicious? what other explanation is there? I guess it's possible the mafia chose to not kill, but that's not likely and doesn't make sense. If we had been past the 72 hour time-limit for night, I would have considered the possibility that the mafia didn't get their orders in.

Why not? It gets everyone thinking doctor, and then the doctor (if there is one) becomes tempted to claim with the information they think they gained. It's actually a more common tactic than one might think. (Also consider that it can make for a good fake claim by mafia later in the game should it become clear to them that there is no doctor.)

[Zachrulez]

I've seen it work.

[Zachrulez]

Okay, Ive done a reread on bfl . . . and he, like yernab, contributed almost nothing. Especially nothing on the whole Wrath case despite having at least a few people spefically ask him his thoughts. He just said he didnt see anything scummy, and asked what the case on Wrath was. And never replied after I presented my case

bfl is my new favorite person

Vote: bfl

Oh wow, I didn't realize he was an active lurking that badly on top of his doc speculation.

Yeah, Yernab was the one that was like... "This is what who I'd vote if I was scum, but I'm not scum, so I'd probably vote for this person instead." Right?

[Zachrulez]

Did BFL jump on the bandwagon? I don't like the lynch the lurker policy on only day II. Seems like a terrible idea. I'm pretty sure at least one mafia is on the bandwagon. They tend to be.

BFL wasn't voting yesterday.

Mafia come in all different styles and sizes, and one of those is the not voting mafia.

[Zachrulez]

Kay.

I just feel the need to point out you are wrong, you are looking at the wrong people, and I am pretty sure BJL will not flip scum.

Once again, turn your attention the bandwagon, because that's where the scum lies. So. Bandwagon on bjl, if you must. We'll see where that leads.

Vote: EtherealCookie

The bold in the quotes pretty much says it all.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah well see, at the same time you insist BJL will flip town you're also fine with his bandwagon.

[Zachrulez]

Once again, off you go defending Tubby. Chainsaw defense, much? Let Tubby speak for himself first. You're not his voice. And, if that's the only reason you can find, maybe you should read my posts carefully, because skimming doesn't help, and this is obviously not an OMGUS vote given I have a case on both of you.

To be fair, you can't make a reasonable case for a chainsaw defense unless the player being defended is dead scum.

Just saying...

[Zachrulez]

Stance on what?

Isn't my stance pretty clear?

[Zachrulez]

I don't really have much of a problem with Tubby or Manho at this point.

I find you most suspicious, followed by BJL.

Meji seems lurky after an active day 1.

Crazypianist is definitely lurking.

Soyasushi looks town to me. Getting good vibes for his posts.

Is that what you were looking for?

[Zachrulez]

I still don't think I have much of a read yet on Cookie, but bjl and his current lurkiness + yernab's scummy posts earlier on makes me still think he's scum. And I don't know what's Chainsaw Defense, either. Might've heard of it once, though.

Chainsaw defense

[Zachrulez]

He seems to be contributing to me.

[Zachrulez]

Well let's take one of his posts... like post 256.

You don't think that's contributing?

[Zachrulez]

Checking in.

Anyone know what the vote count is?

[Zachrulez]

You have anything specific you want to ask me then?

your thoughts on bjl/cookie being linked as scum pair

your thoughts on me and manho being scumpair

do you think either argument is valid


or do you think this is begininng to show town v town and too much eagerness to be right?

Cookie and BJL are my top 2 suspects. So in that regard, I could see them being a scum pair. We can only lynch one player at a time though, so I try to tread carefully under theories that make chain lynching tempting.

I don't find you or manho suspicious at all, so I'm not really seeing either of you as scum, together or otherwise.

Personally, the main reason I like Cookie better for a lynch is due to his insistence that BJL will flip town, which is something that he can't possibly know for sure. He could be protecting hyposcum BJL, or he could just be trying to make BJL look like scum. All the same, I don't like what he's doing at all.

[Zachrulez]

I went ahead and counted the votes.

Unofficial vote count:

BJL - 3 (Meji Fan, Soyasushi, Manho)
Etherealcookie - 2 (Tubby, Zachrulez)
Tubby - 1 (Etherealcookie)

Not voting (BJL, Crazypianist)

[Zachrulez]

Between BJL and Cookie, I still find cookie to be a stronger lynch.

Under threat of deadline, I may be willing to switch though.

[Zachrulez]

If you want to read any of my completed games. I have them listed in my wiki. (It should be reasonably current.)

[Zachrulez]

Mmmkay, it's not alignment sorted or with links but I'll dig from there then.
Also, regarding this could you tell which game(s) you were referencing?

Kinda put me on the spot as I was going off memory, but I did manage to locate at least one example. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 25#1672825

Any comments on my thoughts?

Your thoughts on me specifically? Or your thoughts in general? On me, I don't think I've heard anything I haven't been accused of in the past. This game has been pretty slow paced and hard to get into, and with no one really pressing on my lack of activity until you have specifically now, it's been pretty easy for me to just coast by.

Regarding you and your predecessors, I'm actually reluctant to lynch your slot because of Cookie's blatant defending of you and his insistence that your slow will flip town. Others see this as a blatantly obvious connection, but aren't really considering the potential that cookie could be making you look like his scumbuddy.

As for the rest of it. I'll need to look at it more and think on it.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah... before you go preaching to me what a great idea it is to focus on the town lynch wagon... just keep in mind that Cookie was ON the town lynch wagon.

[Zachrulez]

Obviously I don't see his read as plausibly as you do.

And no, it's not based on him being on the Wraith wagon. But it's a pretty bad basis for him to go after others because he was also on the wagon. It's also not good play not to look at the players who were not on the wagon because scum can also deliberately avoid lynching wagons. There are cases when actions need to be taken into account more than who was on what bandwagon. It's a good starting place, but a narrow minded view of the game as a whole. Mafia can be, and is more complex than that.

I don't really see how my vote was illogical. Hypocritical? Maybe. Did I actively discourage discussion like Wraith did?

[Zachrulez]

Also, currently I'm leaning

vote: manho

I'd like everyone to comment on my case on manho.
I'd also like Zach to elaborate why he said earlier he had a townread on manho.

When did I say I had a town read on manho?

[Zachrulez]

What do you think about the fact that Ojanen has suddenly backed off of you after your doc claim Manho?

As far as my stance on the issue, unless there is a counterclaim, I think it's best to take the claim at face value. That also makes it highly likely that Soyasushi is town.

[Zachrulez]

@Tubby: do you find it likely I am scum?
Why is Cookie scum?

@Zach: Recent occurences of the non-committance that bothers me:

I'd like everyone to comment on my case on manho.
I'd also like Zach to elaborate why he said earlier he had a townread on manho.

When did I say I had a town read on manho?

So I did make a mistake, Zach said he doesn't have a problem with manho earlier. But Zach doesn't let out any sign of actually replying whether he finds manho scummy or not, despite my explicit request.

Yes a mistake. A mistake that kinda sorta misrepresented my stated position on manho.

For the record, no I did not really find him that scummy prior to your case. No I hadn't gotten around to really giving your case on him a good look over before he claimed doc.

What do you think about the fact that Ojanen has suddenly backed off of you after your doc claim Manho?
As far as my stance on the issue, unless there is a counterclaim, I think it's best to take the claim at face value. That also makes it highly likely that Soyasushi is town.

manho asked others to comment on my case on him/me.
Zach didn't take a stance, instead asked manho a question on me. And implies believing manho town, so the question from manho isn't an attempt to question a scum candidate,
What do YOU think, Zach, about me?

Well look at it simply from the point of view I am seeing it from right now. You made this big case on Manho, that you wanted everyone to comment on. You pushed this whole agenda of saying that you felt Manho was the best lynch, even using him asking about the deadline as some indication that he's even scummy.

Then he claims doc.

And everything changes.

Clearly scum's goal is to make cases against townies that look good enough on the surface but in reality are just total crap.

So tell me what I should think. Was your whole case just an honest mistake now, or should I think that maybe you have a more sinister intention beneath the surface of what you are posting?

[Zachrulez]

@Zach: Recent occurences of the non-committance that bothers me:

I'd like everyone to comment on my case on manho.
I'd also like Zach to elaborate why he said earlier he had a townread on manho.

When did I say I had a town read on manho?

So I did make a mistake, Zach said he doesn't have a problem with manho earlier. But Zach doesn't let out any sign of actually replying whether he finds manho scummy or not, despite my explicit request.

Hey! I didn't even make a mistake, Zach did say

I don't find you[tubby] or manho suspicious at all, so I'm not really seeing either of you as scum, together or otherwise.

so that reaction of his was even poorer!

No... just... no.

I can concede that I might have said that. (Which was the purpose of asking when I said that in the first place.) But you can't sit there and act like that makes me look worse when you yourself didn't do your own homework on the subject.

[Zachrulez]

Yes a mistake. A mistake that kinda sorta misrepresented my stated position on manho.

I'm sorry you failed at simulposting here.
Interesting that you didn't remember your position on manho though.

Yeah, I forgot explicitly saying I thought he was town. So what? How long ago did I actually say that?

No... just... no.
I can concede that I might have said that. (Which was the purpose of asking when I said that in the first place.) But you can't sit there and act like that makes me look worse when you yourself didn't do your own homework on the subject.

I DID do my homework. I was correct at first, but then didn't find it again, must have overlooked.
Besides, why is it my homework to remember when you stated a townread on manho? I just generally asked why you had one. You are as responsible to remember when you had a townread as I am.

Why exactly are you interested in why I think he's town? Do you want to know if my arguments were valid enough to justify him being town in order to draw a scum nk toward him? I don't really get it.

Well look at it simply from the point of view I am seeing it from right now. You made this big case on Manho, that you wanted everyone to comment on. You pushed this whole agenda of saying that you felt Manho was the best lynch, even using him asking about the deadline as some indication that he's even scummy.

Then he claims doc.

And everything changes.

Clearly scum's goal is to make cases against townies that look good enough on the surface but in reality are just total crap.

So tell me what I should think. Was your whole case just an honest mistake now, or should I think that maybe you have a more sinister intention beneath the surface of what you are posting?

Explain how is me changing my mind based on a claim is scummy?
Manho wasn't under intense pressure - only 2 votes - if he's scum a counterclaim would have destroyed him for no reason.
Obviously I failed at identifying scum although I was getting really sure - that's where the tunneling was starting to come from. And I lost a bunch of scumhunting credibility. But continuing to push the case after a claim that would be nonsensical play from scum, that would be far more scummy than bluntly saying I must have been wrong and moving on. Why do you disagree?

Also, if you think my case was crap, you should state why by showing the faulty arguments, not just hinting so and saying you haven't inspected it.

I wasn't sure what to think of it because I hadn't had time to give it a look. You have to admit though that your case in light of Manho's claim and your sudden belief that he's town does tend to cast a shadow on you.

I'll try to get a look at your case when I have some time. (Obviously I wasn't expecting the claim to happen and it's grabbed all the attention from all the things I was planning to do regarding this game)

I really should cut down the number of games I play at once, this story feels like a broken record.

[Zachrulez]

What do you mean by "this story"?

I play too many games and don't give them the attention they deserve.

I get down to a few and get kinda bored because not enough is happening and sign up for more.

It's a vicious cycle.

[Zachrulez]

Hey guys, I'm actually quite busy right now, but given how close it is to the deadline I'll see what I can do to catch up later tonight.

[Zachrulez]

Paltry, if you read mini 761, it will give you good insight on why I dislike excessive discussion in twilight. (As twilight discussion on day 3 was a major factor in the day 4 mislynch.)

[Zachrulez]

Zaaaaaach, please play with me already.

*Resists the urge to crack a bad and possibly inappropriate joke*

Qualify playing with you. Am I not playing already?

[Zachrulez]

The timing of Ethereal's vote doesn't change the fact that Wraith's vote was OMGUS, not to mention quickly and decisively cast. He was more interested in retaliating than he was in scum hunting. He concluded before questioning.

Seemed like a reasonable thing to find him scummy for early on.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, and decide if my manho case makes me sinister as you implied and if yes, why. Please.

I haven't decided. I am not going to be trying to convince you that you're scum if I do decide that it is now am I?

Do you think you have made valid points on Manho? Do you think those points are still valid? Do those points make more sense from a town perspective simply because Manho claimed doc?

[Zachrulez]

There's nothing overly elaborate on why I didn't find Manho suspicious earlier in the game. I simply wasn't bothered by his posts as much as others apparently were. It was pretty much gut. Kinda embarrassing to only have that as a reason, but that's what it is.

I can reread manho and the case and tell you if I think any of the points are valid, but it would be a lie to concoct some reason that he was town out of re-reading him.

[Zachrulez]

I'm sure that's why you waited specifically until the point where my bandwagon would surpass yours to vote me.

The timing of your vote is noted.

[Zachrulez]

Also, I believe Manho is currently voting for Cookie. (At least from the last vote I see from him in iso.

[Zachrulez]

I like how you still didn't respond to Ojanen.

What exactly do I need to respond to? I thought I explained the town read on Manho as best as I could.

And all that conversation is doing is taking focus off of you, which is where I want it to be.

[Zachrulez]

Are there any particular questions or reasons I should be replying to those posts for?

[Zachrulez]

2. Your defence on ending conversation in twilight was due to your fear of twilight talk, example Mini 761. However, I see that as a townie-error that could be committed whenever. Why is twilight talk in particular bad for town? If this goes unanswered you basically stilted conversation.

The mistake was made in twilight in a situation where the mistake wouldn't have been made if twilight had not happened the way it did in that game.

Hoopla made assertions that would have been kept to herself had there not been twilight in that game, and would have ended up not looking as scummy as she did as a result of those assertions made at twilight.

I acknowledge that the choices she made after the fact were not the brightest either though. Twilight was a major contributing factor, but admittedly not everything.

After a lynch has taken place, having an opportunity to talk before the scene is posted just feels to me like an opportunity to get into trouble, cause you have no idea how little or how much your positions are going to change once the flip comes, and having it out there so blatantly is something that one can very opportunistically find scummy.

You may not agree with me, but I feel very strongly that the town in that game may have had a much better shot at it if the mod didn't have the twilight system he did.

You may well never be satisfied with my answers if you don't see what happened in that game the way I do, but I can try to help you understand my position a little better if the above explanation still doesn't explain it well enough for you.

[Zachrulez]

Tbh I'm not totally comfortable with the timing of EC's vote either. Something about both of them in that whole interaction feels off in my gut, although not changing my overall reads based on just this.
But Zach, by now you're clearly purposefully not talking back to me.
Why? Why do you want to deny me of getting a better read from you?

I'm kinda frustrated in regards to you. I'm not really sure what you expect me to do in this game and I kinda feel like you're pulling me around in many different directions trying to address multiple things at once.

I also don't think anything I say in response is going to change your mind about me, so it doesn't seem worthwhile to me, and it also isn't going to do much to help lynch the player I'm actually suspicious of.

[Zachrulez]

By my count of the vote, cookie should still be the deadline lynch. By Hohum's it will be me.

Just another reason I'm not really into this game... but I'm still here, so I'll try to get to the rest of what Ojanen wants me to respond to over lunch today.

Deadline's in like two days, so if there's any other thoughts that you guys want from me, now would be the time to ask. I am presuming that the vote count is not going to be fixed/changed and that I will be dead at that point.

[Zachrulez]

If there's a tie, first person to reach that total is lynched actually.

[Zachrulez]

Woah huge content post! Yay.
It's very late in my time zone so I'll look at it tomorrow properly and just respond to stuff directly related to me right now.

I haven't decided. I am not going to be trying to convince you that you're scum if I do decide that it is now am I?

Ugh not the point, why do you keep dodging?
I'm trying to evaluate

you

. You implied you suspect that there might be sinister motives, although you hadn't looked at the case really. I want content from you on it. If you find my motives scummy and how.

Also, one general question: what is your philosophy regards voting? Do you usually mostly only vote if you eant to lynch someone or are you more liberal?

Somewhere in between. I used to really move my vote around a lot, and consequently was heavily suspected when I did that. I try to avoid that tendency more now.

Do you think you have made valid points on Manho? Do you think those points are still valid? Do those points make more sense from a town perspective simply because Manho claimed doc?

1. yes. I might have reached some in the end when was getting sure but I believe most of it is pretty solid.
2. points can be argumentally valid and still false. Scumtells aren't absolute, more like probabilities. I currently believe manho is more likely town, which would make my points as described in first sentence.
3. Not truly, but I don't see how that claim in that situation would be anything than very sub-optimal play from scum.

The only problem is if manho is playing irraionally enough. But anyway I don't think that's something that should be worried about today.

Fair enough. I still don't like how you 180ed so quickly on him, but I think you're in that situation regardless of what your alignment is so I'll let this particular point go.

[Zachrulez]

I reeeeeally wanna lynch Zach.
I'm frustrated with this game in whole right now because trying to get answers from him is like pulling teeth regards to the pace and we're going nowhere with most people dug into their respective tunnels of scumreads (not saying I'm better) and deadline approaching.

Would you lynch this face? [/lame ate]

Zach, are you happy with your play this game? what you describe as "coasting" and stuff? You just signed up for another game, which is entirely all right and obviously totally within your rights but makes me feel you're not even interested of really getting more involved here.

No, I'm really not. Coasting pretty much describes my play here. It's mostly my fault for not being all that interested in the game, (Which has a lot to do with the current pace, and generally low activity levels prior to that.) but I've also been allowed to do it for so long, and no one's really seemed to be all that interested in my input anyway, which is another factor that makes it easier for me not to get fully involved with the game.

If that frustrates you or anyone else I apologize, but that's more or less where I'm at and where I have been with this game for a very long time.

[Zachrulez]

Does anyone know what the current vote count is?

[Zachrulez]

Ewww, Starbuck's not voting? I think everyone should be at this point.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, I have a confession to make. I've been waivering on my scum read of Cookie. In a situation where scum needs any other lynch to survive, him changing his vote from me doesn't really make any sense as scum.

At the moment, the fact that Starbuck is not voting is sticking out like a sore thumb to me, so yeah, with the deadline fast approaching why haven't you found it important to fully catch up and take a firm stance?

Unvote: Vote: Starbuck

[Zachrulez]

You might want to re-read that claim Starbuck.

[Zachrulez]

Vote: Tubby216

I'm vanilla town.

One more mislynch is a town loss at this point.

The lynch for today is obviously either me or Tubby.

Best bet is standard scum hunting to determine which of us has played scummier over the course of the game.

Not sure how much I can do to guide you guys to the right answer beyond that. (I wasn't really suspicious of Tubby before, so anything I bring forth now is tainted by confirmation bias.)

[Zachrulez]

Zach, you do realize you are voting for a claimed cop right?

Who claimed a guilty on me. Which is impossible because I am town.

[Zachrulez]

I've come down with a cold. You can expect spotty activity from me over the next few days.

[Zachrulez]

Patience, we're not in a deadline critical situation right now.

I will be well again in a day or so, which is when I will respond to your inquiries.

[Zachrulez]

In my mind, the 2nd scum is between Starbuck, and Kyiv.

It's highly unlikely that there's any scenario where you can be scum Paltry. A far fetched no kill on night 1 with you being paired with tubby is about the only thing I can see, but I am doubting that the mafia didn't actually attempt to kill your slot on night one.

Manho can't be scum unless he's scum with Tubby. Mafia would have had to have intentionally no killed for this to work. (Given no doc counterclaim.) I am doubting this.

So that leaves Starbuck, who seemed to be lurking a bit too much for my liking. I am wondering if she would have voted at all at the end of day 2 if I hadn't picked up on the fact that she wasn't voting.

Transition into day 3 and she's way too quick to believe Tubby's cop claim for my liking. (Which of course she now goes back on.)

But still, there's something about kyiv. (Who's also chosen to vote for me before actually allowing my thoughts to be heard.) I have to wonder how Tubby argues that crazy pianist was worthy of an investigation on night one, and now claims to have a town read on kyiv. That doesn't seem to match up

More concerns.

@kyiv: the bjl-cookie-scum-interaction has nothing with cookie setting up mislynch. and cookie is not scum for setting up mislynch solely, and the bolded "town" is to show cookie knew wrath would flip town,

You never ever said why you thought this. You just said it. No one else provided it as a reason, nor did anyone provide any thoughts relating to this. So I ignored it, with good reason.

cookie set up two future lynches after wrath was lynched, tubby if town and crazy if scum. but i (and tubby?) am pushing for two lynches at the same time, and am happy to lynch both of them today, even before one of them is lynched.

That sounds even scummier than before! Now you don't care if they flip town or not? You just want them dead. It's okay to state a suspicion of someone if another person flips a certain alignment, but to lynch two people regardless of alignment is pretty off-putting to me.

that's different. the thing that i was tempted to claim is true, and i remember there is a post between bjl's and my posts by crazy(?) saying the doc shouldn't claim.

I'm still finding it hard to believe since you were soooo convinced that it was "congratulating the doc", you argued against it until Ojanen herself cleared it, even when Cookie and myself both fought against it.

I don't like either lynch wagons at this point. I'm finding Manho the scummiest even with his doc claim (or perhaps even especially because of it). Both Zach and Cookie seem town to me, especially since Cookie is not riding the rival wagon to his own safety, that screams town to me. I also can't find any arguments to why Cookie is scum, just blank accusations that I don't agree with and have fought to death over. Zach is still voting Cookie and he hasn't exactly given reasons why recently, just that he's unsure of Cookie's defense of Bjl (which was way way back). With all that said, I'm not buying Manho's doc claim, nor am I buying anyone's arguments that Cookie is scum. So for now:

Vote: Manho

With that said, how much time do we have? I know today is the last day, but how much longer can we go before deadline hammers?

Voting for the uncountered doc claim toward the end of day 2.

At that point in the game it's pretty clear that Manho was unlikely to be scum. It seems even more clear now. I have to wonder about the motivations behind that post.

And more.

You're missing one thing: Why did you investigate CP and Zach? Now that you've claimed, you haven't a reason to keep anything from us. Also, there are very big chances that town will lose if we mislynch. Please don't rush into a Zach lynch.

I'd like to hear from Starbuck... your vote on EC came from nowhere (or at least that's what it looked like), and you seem to be missing very big parts of the game, though you are quick to jump in as soon as someone mentions your name.

I happen to agree with the 2nd part. Starbuck's EC vote did look pretty weak. The 1st part though, establishes that the town should be cautious about the way it approaches the Tubby claim. Not an unreasonable position... however

Manho, who did you protect last night?

Uhhh...

No, Tubby; you still haven't explained what in particular about Zach's play led you to investigate him.

Your sudden change of heart almost scares me

Tubby has been fairly consistent until now; there are similarities between CP's posts and Zach's posts that struck Tubby to investigate them both. At this point, I'm more inclined to believe Tubby.

Vote: Zach

Only need one side of the story do you?

Now the position I'm in right now. It's pretty clear to me that Manho is the doctor, and it's also pretty clear that I have concerns about both Kyiv and Starbuck. I tend to lean toward Kyiv being the 2nd scum at this point.

I don't really understand Kyiv's interest in the claimed doctor or why she was interested in who Manho protected.

I think I should also make clear that the presence of a cop in this setup is not certain, and that only the scum would know for sure whether or not there actually is a cop at this point. This would seem to be consistent with Kyiv's interest in the doctor and why she seems to both believe the claim at face value while simultaneously trying to make a case against him. (Observe again the end of day 2.)

Further I think it's quite important to point out that if there is no cop in the setup, the scum would know that the instant manho claimed. A safe fake claim of cop would be a relatively easy thing to pull off in this situation as scum would know there would be no counter claim, and given how badly I have played up to this point in general, scum could perceive my lynch as a relatively easy one to get.

[Zachrulez]

All that said, I'd still like to see more content from Starbuck. She hasn't posted in a while and her actions coupled with her lurking still bother me.

[Zachrulez]

It's not very probable 50/50. It IS 50/50

One of us has to be lying.

[Zachrulez]

I want Kyiv to elaborate more on her conclusion to the quoted first paragraph on 621.

I also want to see some content from Starbuck.

[Zachrulez]

That's the great thing about a cop claim isn't it? You don't really need to reason it or make a case, all you need to argue is that you have a guilty.

[Zachrulez]

Not really.

Here's a thought.

Other than the fact that you've claimed cop. Why shouldn't we lynch you?

[Zachrulez]

No, Tubby; you still haven't explained what in particular about Zach's play led you to investigate him.

did not like this post

Yeah, I have a confession to make. I've been waivering on my scum read of Cookie. In a situation where scum needs any other lynch to survive, him changing his vote from me doesn't really make any sense as scum.

At the moment, the fact that Starbuck is not voting is sticking out like a sore thumb to me, so yeah, with the deadline fast approaching why haven't you found it important to fully catch up and take a firm stance?

Unvote: Vote: Starbuck

and his generall play i did not like. He just read funny in iso so i went back and read the day and figured it would make a good choice for investigating. Because either it would confirm him town or find scum wich it did.

Vague much? What particularly about my play didn't you like and why didn't you find it worth bringing up earlier in the game?

Your sudden change of heart almost scares me

normally i save this explination for after the game ends but i'll do it here and now because its warranted. I generally play anti town or as unhelpful as possible when i am town, because it aides me in gauging everyones reactions to me. Plus it allows me to aviod being nightkilled due to the fact i make a better lynch than a nk canidate. Since I did not know wether or not there would be a doc in this game untill i was rb'd nite 1 i figured that same stratagey would serve me well here. Of course it did untill it comes to time like now when i claim. So i get where you guys extremely cautious in believing me at face value.

Here is how I see your explanation. You play like scum.

[Zachrulez]

And how exactly do you believe Tubby plays as scum?

[Zachrulez]

It's a general question to point out the hole in believing Tubby's town based on his explanation.

[Zachrulez]

The question would be how would you expect Tubby to play as scum in general.

I'll look into that part myself, but I suspect that he plays pretty much the same way he claims to play as town.

Which would mean his explanation means nothing.

[Zachrulez]

I'm kinda resigned to my fate now and am just waiting to be lynched I suppose.

Don't think anything I say at this point is going to change that.

[Zachrulez]

Oh wow, really?

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, this has gotten somewhat confusing. On looking at the que yesterday, I was under the impression that a replacement had been found for Tubby, but it was never announced in thread.

Didn't even realize that Starbuck and Kyiv are no longer in the game either.

[Zachrulez]

Starbuck could have hammered as well could she have not?

[Zachrulez]

Could she of? Then that doesn't spell well for you. That only leaves manho or you as a tubby-scumbuddy... and I think there was a kill night one.

Yeah, there really isn't a way out of this one now is there?

Damn you for putting me at lynch -1 and revealing that.

[Zachrulez]

But anyway, plz don't lynch me. I'll be good, I promise.

*Puppy dog eyes.*

[Zachrulez]

Don't sound too excited now.

[Zachrulez]

Are you Tubby's replacement?

[Zachrulez]

God, I don't even know who's in this game anymore... lol

[Zachrulez]

But anyway, plz don't lynch me. I'll be good, I promise.

*Puppy dog eyes.*

And you should know better that appealing to emotion is a scumtell!

Well duh...

lol.

[Zachrulez]

Man, that rope is going to feel really uncomfortable.

[/spam]

[Zachrulez]

Has someone PMed him or should I? No point in him getting a PM from each of us.

I would probably consider throwing one VRK's way as well.

[Zachrulez]

Maybe if I hammer again, he'll come back?

Vote: Zach

That hurt enough the first time.

[Zachrulez]

My only real complaint with this game was the restrictions placed on the roleblocker role.

They weren't allowed to roleblock AND kill, which I was under the impression was standard for newbie games. (It should be anyway.)

Everything else was just the scumteam going down in flames.

When I unvoted cookie on day 2, I was actually trying to daytalk to Starbuck and send her a signal to lynch tubby instead. (Since cookie claimed vanilla and tubby was unclaimed.)

Unfortunately for our team, she didn't get the message.

Then I compounded matters by killing Ojanen instead of Tubby, who I was reasonably certain was the cop.

[Zachrulez]

My general feel of this game was that me and meji had it in the bag until a wave of replacements came in and changed everything.

Argh! *Shakes fist.*

[Zachrulez]

I know the one big thing that went wrong for me was my V/LA. Not that I could control the fact that my great grandmother passed away and my access was extremely limited for all of this week until today. I was in the middle of making a post in notepad on Kyiv in hopes I could swing the lynch when the hammer came down.

hohum's constant in and out as the mod didn't help.

Also, my main issue with hohum was that when I replaced in, the role PM that I was given was rather confusing. We had a pretty big issue and it was like he didn't even care. The issue was that he wanted Zach to send the kill and me to send the RB, but this was not stated in the Role PM. I replace into quite a number of Newbie games and this was the first one that I ever had any issue. Then once Zach died, I had to choose. In my eyes, we are playing mafia and the mafia kill is part of being scum, so that if the goon dies, the RB should not have to choose but should be able to do both.

Yeah, I was actually quite angry to realize that there was no kill on night 3, there was no reason that should have been allowed to happen. (Even though we were probably going to lose anyway.)

[Zachrulez]

It makes things overpowered once the goon is dead.

We still had the doctor and the cop still alive.

This.

It was demonstrated on night 3 with Starbuck's dilemma and it made even worse if the goon is lynched sooner with both power roles alive.

[Zachrulez]

I'm not opposed to the idea of the GOON being punished like that if the rber is lynched, but it just seems wrong the other way around.

To craft your strategy toward the rber's preservation for that problem to creep up, is just frustrating.

[Zachrulez]

Basically, I don't think the 2 power role setup is balanced unless the rber is allowed to both block and kill.

The scumteam is well crippled with ANY mafia lynch.

[Zachrulez]

BTW, what did your role pm say Starbuck?

[Zachrulez]

Also, has this situation ever occurred before? This could be a topic for MD, but I'm not sure if it's ever come up before.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, I saw that in the opening post.

Basically said you could do both, but you had to chose between roleblock and kill if only you were alive.

But yeah, the wording was a tad confusing.

[Zachrulez]

The issue with the PM was that I sent him both the actions when me and Zach were both alive, and he told me that he could only take one action from me. That's what bothered me first, because we were both alive. You can see the QT and see that we agreed upon the actions, but he wanted Zach to PM him as well. It just didn't make sense.

And he posted the night scene before the deadline was up, and I was able to come on and resolve the issue...

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, I was mad about that too.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, that was unfortunate Sanjay, I was wondering why you never posted.

[Zachrulez]

It's strange, because I played 2 or 3 other newbie games modded by hohum without incident.

It should probably be noted that all those games also lacked role blockers though.

[Zachrulez]

It's strange, because I played 2 or 3 other newbie games modded by hohum without incident.

It should probably be noted that all those games also lacked role blockers though.

This was my first moderated by hohum and is definitely my last.

Yeah, I definitely see where you're coming from on why.

Hopefully my poor play in this game doesn't make you never want to play with me again!

[Zachrulez]

Zach, if you do make that MD thread, please send me a link to it?


Thanks!

Vel

Will do.

To be clear, I'm not bashing Hohum, but rather just expressing my anger/frustration at the way this game unfolded. I don't have any problem with him personally.

In the end, I ended up getting confused by what was standard in newbie games and what wasn't. (There are some things that are standard that I don't think should be, like the automatic 3 week deadline, I think that the length of deadline should be at the mod's discretion, but the ship sailed on that discussion long ago I know, but that is also just my opinion on that matter.)

[Zachrulez]

And VRK, I'll always remember you as that scumbag I lynched in newbie 784... just wanted you to know that.

[Zachrulez]

Ya, the wave of replacements hurt you two badly. For one, both Ojanen and I got a scum read on Zach... although I also got one on Tubby so I'd say Ojanen wins for most accurate.

Really, my suspicions on Starbuck really began when she:
A) Late voted.
B) Then insta-voted after Tubby's cop claim.

As the only person who I'd ever played a game with, I knew Starbuck was a thinking player, and as town would be less likely prone to instantly believing Tubby's cop claim.

Either way, I have to say I royally sucked this game Day 3 & 4, and was pulled through on the power of the cop and Kyiv.

@Starbuck: I think at this point, if we're ever in a game together, we're going to be on different sides.

Don't feel bad about finding Tubby scummy. He WAS scummy, and then he just sat back and acted like none of it mattered just because he happened to be the cop.

[Zachrulez]

Honestly, you guys took way too long to lynch me... heh heh.

[Zachrulez]

Interesting.

I just read the last two pages of 818, and Pomegranate's linked poll in post 626. May want to peruse it in regards to that poll.

Not sure if I want to standardize RB actions or not, but there are good arguments in there from both sides of the coin.

Newbie games are 3 weeks because that's plenty of time to run a game day and get everyone a good taste of how we do things here, so that they can move on to the "real" game queues. When newbie games were unlimited timeframe, you'd have games go on for weeks and weeks that didn't need to, because people would talk themselves to death and then sit on their asses and not commit to action.

Oh, I do agree that there should be a deadline, I've seen games without deadlines go on for months and that's just ridiculous.

I just believe there's room for some flexing on the amount of time. (Depending on the pace of game the moderator might prefer.)

[Zachrulez]

Interesting.

I just read the last two pages of 818, and Pomegranate's linked poll in post 626. May want to peruse it in regards to that poll.

Not sure if I want to standardize RB actions or not, but there are good arguments in there from both sides of the coin.

You do have the cop and doctor actions standardized do you not? I imagine it would be considered a problem if a newbie mod started using non sane cops or doctors that suddenly weren't guaranteed to work.

And I think that's the problem you risk when you allow the roleblocker actions to be done different ways.

[Zachrulez]

Don't feel bad about finding Tubby scummy. He WAS scummy, and then he just sat back and acted like none of it mattered just because he happened to be the cop.

Part of me, for excitement's sake, was kind of hoping you and Tubby were partners. Thanks though, it makes me feel a bit better about my play.

However, Finch's posts really read pro-town. He was making up leaps and bounds for Tubby's odd posting style in my mind.

Oh, question: You guys did kill Soyasushi night 1 right? So Zach, why kill someone who's tunneling on a townie?

Soyasushi was giving off pro-town vibes and was unlikely to actually be lynched, that is why we opted to kill him. He was also off wagon so that was also a plus. We didn't take into account that there might be a doctor that might anticipate the kill otherwise we might have adjusted to a somewhat more suboptimal kill.

[Zachrulez]

Just read the Scum QT.

Kudos on picking out the cop, Zach.

Yeah, if you notice, I also pushed us toward killing Ojanen anyway, and the whole house of cards came tumbling down hard.

That was a bad bad mistake on my part.

[Zachrulez]

I think in hindsight, if we blocked tubby and killed manho, we probably could have steered the town to a tubby lynch, with his cop claim giving the town exactly zippo.

[Zachrulez]

Do you think it's right for a sole roleblocker to be unable to punish and capitalize on the mistakes the town has made by outing their power roles?

That probably brings the argument down to a far more basic level.

(I had a gut read on tubby as cop, but didn't have a clue who the doc was till manho claimed.)

[Zachrulez]

And of course the dillemna starbuck ran into was, kill Manho, get investigated guilty by cop, kill cop, and get kill blocked by doc.

Both those options suck, and only being able to roleblock the cop while giving the town an extra lynch, (I'd have to run the numbers, but I think a day 1 goon lynch gives them TWO extra lynches.) only sucks slightly less.

[Zachrulez]

I guess at the most basic level, I don't find the paticular setup fair, as it presents a setup that tends to teach newbies to hide behind power role claims, rather than being taught to keep quiet about them until the time is right and the info they gain is optimal to share with the town.

[Zachrulez]

I guess the real question should be why the rber exists in newbie setups in the first place.

I wasn't around on the site when they were introduced, so I don't know for sure why they were created to begin with.

[Zachrulez]

Do you think it's right for a sole roleblocker to be unable to punish and capitalize on the mistakes the town has made by outing their power roles?

That probably brings the argument down to a far more basic level.

(I had a gut read on tubby as cop, but didn't have a clue who the doc was till manho claimed.)

I'm not talking about right or wrong here. As a matter of fact, for my games I let the RBer do both. I believe it keeps proper balance in the game no matter what the setup is. Reading over 818, I can see the other side of the argument as well. From that point of view, if the Goon gets lynched, why should the RBer get a cookie?

Your statement above is flat-out wrong. Why should the RBer get to "capitalize on the mistakes of the Town", when the scum team is the one who screwed up to the point of getting the Goon lynched? This is me playing Devil's Advocate, not necessarily voicing my opinion.

This is not about whether it's right or wrong, it's about whether it should be a standard built into the Newbie queue, like the 3-week deadline is.

I don't concede that mistakes made by the scumteam allowed this to happen in the first place for this particular game.

My point is more to the fact that this kind of situation could easily happen again in a game with this ruleset, to the point where it punishes a scumteam for a goon lynch that resulted in a cop guilty. (What if it happened and the scumteam made no glaring mistakes?)

[Zachrulez]

I guess at the most basic level, I don't find the paticular setup fair, as it presents a setup that tends to teach newbies to hide behind power role claims, rather than being taught to keep quiet about them until the time is right and the info they gain is optimal to share with the town.

This is a MUCH better argument. The rest of it sounds like you're bitter about screwing the pooch and getting caught doing so. Don't take it personally, but that's how I'm seeing most of the discussion since the game ended - the scum team looks like they're trying to place blame anywhere except where it belongs. If this is going to offend you, then we don't need to have any further discussion. Take it for what it is: a simple observation. Distance yourself from the emotion of the game and see it from the perspective of someone who doesn't give a flip about the outcome.

This I have to think about. It's a very good point.

No, I do concede that we would have lost the game anyway. (I'm not making this argument for THAT sake.)

[Zachrulez]

So the scum team had NO hand in it's loss? It was completely out of your hands that you lost?

IF that happened, it would suggest that a change was necessary. But, the chances of that happening are slim, considering that this setup only occurs 25% of the time. That other game would have to unfold pretty much the same way this one did.

And that's not likely to happen given that hohum made an error by not letting the scum team make a Night 3 kill.

I do understand that this is rare. I think this setup has been in effect for the last... 200 newbie games or so and has probably occurred about 50-60 times?

And factor in that a large percentage of mods don't use this ruleset.

So I do understand that this situation isn't likely to occur very often. I'm just more concerned about having a newbie placed in this position after watching the way the ICs were unable to handle it... you know? lol

[Zachrulez]

There were many factors in the scum teams loss. For once, the number of replacements. For two, I know my absence due to personal things did not help at all. We aren't saying that we aren't at fault for the loss. What we are saying, or at least myself, is that there is a significant issue with this setup and since this is not the first time that it happened. hohum linked me to the last time it happened in August in 818.

This is the Newbie Queue and everything should standardized one way or another. This choice the mods have to make this role unable to do a normal scum function makes for an uneven game if they lose their goon.

Very much this. Lord knows this isn't the first time I've lost a game, and it damn sure won't be the last.

[Zachrulez]

I guess the real question should be why the rber exists in newbie setups in the first place.

I wasn't around on the site when they were introduced, so I don't know for sure why they were created to begin with.

The old C9 setup was too unbalanced in favor of the the scum team. We went to a 9 player setup to give the Town one more day worth of discussions and introduced the RB to keep people from playing "follow the cop" in 50% of the games.

I actually have a pretty good record in 7 player games, and actually enjoy playing in them a lot more than larger games.

That doesn't really have anything to do with what we're discussing, but hey, I yearn to lighten the mood.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, the guilty was devastating. There isn't really a logical arguments you can make against a claimed cop... that is something else I have learned.

Next time if I have a good read on who the cop is, I won't allow that to happen.

[Zachrulez]

Unfortunately not. After posting a lengthy post about who the scumteam was and why, hohum accidentally posted the lynch scene for Zachrulez, revealing him to be a Mafia Goon. I saw it. Deadline hadn't arrived and Zach hadn't been hammered, so though I knew Zach was guilty based on my cop investigation, I was now privileged to information I shouldn't know: that Zach was not a roleblocker. I had to be replaced out. hohum even deleted my lengthy post too.

This game seems to be good at letting people down... so wait, is this why you pretty much gave up at the end of D3, Zach?

I actually didn't know about this...

[Zachrulez]

I claimed scum though because I tried to defend myself by saying that starbuck didn't hammer me either...

But it quickly became obvious the only reason I wouldn't have been hammered by any of the scum suspects was because I WAS in fact scum. I realized there was no way to argue out of that so I just pretty much claimed scum...lol

[Zachrulez]

I should go for the slogan. "Scum don't let cops get guilty results on scum."

[Zachrulez]

I started an MD topic on this.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 58#2008358

[Zachrulez]

just read the scum qt. Zach stay out of my head!!!!! lol you had me dead to rights and was thinkin exactly what i was thinkin the whole time. You are either lucky or just that good. I hope you and i don't end up on oposing sides agian. good job

Yeah you'd think with everything I had figured out I wouldn't have proposed we go the way we did with night actions eh? That was so horrible what I did... lol