mini 814: OVER!

[KittyMo]

MiteyMouse: The frustration is understandable, but the question we need to ask ourselves is, do we really think he's scum? Frankly, his behaviour doesn't seem like scum behaviour to me. Sure, scum tend to lurk, but this is too much - they don't lurk to the point they're about to be replaced. So, it seems to me his current absence is a null tell. Thus, lynching him based on that isn't productive and doesn't help the town.

QFT.

And thank you, Myk. Fiiiiinally.

[mykonian]

sorry to let you wait this long however, I found our new enthousiastic hero in the form of

SANJAY

! thank you very much!

[Sanjay]

Hello, town. Nice to be playing with you.

I haven't finished reading the thread yet so this post isn't going to have a lot to say in terms of what is going on right now. I'll have a more useful and relevant post later in the day once I'm done my read.

But why don't I tell you about myself:

This is the second game I've been involved with and the first one isn't quite finished, so unfortunately I can't comment much on it. But you should know that I typically come off as very pro-town, so optimal play for you would probably be to regard me with the highest suspicion no matter how townie I seem.

I tend to post a lot and I have no qualms about double posting. I hope that doesn't bother you.

I'm at page 9 right now in my read and I am replacing in for ol' self-votin' Henrz. I imagine the dude can't be completely above suspicion the way he has played up until now. While I can't speak for him as well as he could, I am the only one who has seen his role PM so I'm probably the best one to answer for him. Don't hesitate to ask me to explain what he did and don't take "oh, I don't know, that was him not me" as an answer.

Because I've seen replacees do that and I think it is garbage.

I look forward to finding scum and/or duping the townies with you.

[Sanjay]

After thinking about it, my last statement of my previous post probably is a bit in error, because if I am in the business of duping townies, I think I'm probably all by myself in that one, because there's probably just two mafia.

After finishing my first read, my top suspect is KittyMo, or the artist formerly known as MonkeyMan576. Mainly because of how amazingly scummy Monkey was day one.

I think Monkey was given way too much credit for hammering Starbuck. If he is to be believed, he didn't even know he did it:

I didn't know she was at level one. I was just voting for who I thought was scummiest. I didn't see the Hertz vote going anywhere and I'm trying to help the town.

Monkey was either scum or town, and either lying about lynching Starbuck unwittingly or not.

If Monkey was town, let's assume he wouldn't be lying. If Monkey was scum, let's assume he wouldn't knowingly lynch his scumbuddy (that is what you are doing when you think KittyMo is town because Monkey hammered scum). Whether Monkey is town or scum, I find it much more likely that he didn't know he was hammering. While a clueless townie is more likely than a clueless mafioso to lose track of his partner's vote count, I find both explanations plausible.

Also, that "I'm trying to help the town" seems a little out of place. Maybe it's just my paranoia that everyone's posts are loaded with subtext, but does that statement make more sense if you picture it being said by someone who already knew they hammered scum?

Anyway, scum usually don't speedhammer each other, but they definitely vote for each other. Why? To distance themselves and to associate themselves with popular townie lines of thinking. But they don't want that vote to result in a lynch, so they give themselves an out. This was MonkeyMan576's vote:

Yeah, even though I agree with Starbuck on self-voting, it's true that she's not scumhunting. I'm still suspicious of Hertz though.

Unvote:
Vote: Starbuck

That looks a lot like scum busing/distancing to me. Who ends their explanation of a vote for A with "I'm still suspicious of B"? It seems like such a weird vote for a townie to make.

Also, why the heck did Monkey vote for Starbuck, rationally? If you re-read the posts of Day 1, Monkey was skeptical of almost all of the arguments against Starbuck. And yet when a bunch of votes pile on Starbuck, the fact that she hasn't been scumhunting alone is enough to draw a vote? It seems very strange to me.

Bandwagoning isn't solely a scum habit, of course. Inexperienced town do it too, because they aren't that good at doing their own scumhunting and just go along with whatever. But it still strikes me as very suspicious. If Monkey was so inexperienced, where did he get the conviction to argue that the initial arguments against Starbuck lacked substance? That doesn't sound like inexperienced town going along with whatever to me.

Also, there is the obvious point that defending a mafiosa in a period of low risk (the beginning of the day) doesn't look very good once that mafiosa gets lynched and confirmed.

I don't know what to make of our dear deceased tracker's lack of interest in Monkey. That certainly is a point in KittyMo's favor. However, until KittyMo or someone else sufficiently explains away my doubts, I am comfortable with a

Vote: KittyMo

.

This argument against Monkey and KittyMo is the main thing that jumped out at me on my first read. I'll do a re-read later and provide a summary of my reads on people (with reasons!)

KittyMo, I apologize that I'm hitting you with an argument that is mostly directed towards your predescessor. It isn't the easiest to defend against. But until I notice someone else scummier or understand how Monkey's actions are better explained by imagining he is town, you'll be my top suspect.

[Tarballs]

Great, we have a new and (seemingly) active player. Looking forward for more analysis from you.

The only problem I see with the case against MonkeyMan/KittyMo is this:

As bad as that Monkey hammer was, I don't think he's scum. Scum hammering their partner without even giving them a chance to claim on D1 is ridiculous. I think it's just awful town play.

With Locke eventually flipping tracker, I can't help but think that he likely tracked Monkey on night 1. Your thoughts on that?

[Sanjay]

Hello, neighbor!

I think that is a reasonable interpretation of what Locke Lamora said. But I think that quote is consistent with him tracking someone else. Here's the whole quote:

Good to see we were spot on with Starbuck. I don't see what the point of the rant about us ruining the game was for. I even gave her a chance to voice her suspicions and she didn't even indicate she was writing up a big post until after she was hammered. I don't know how she went from Monkey's hammer to deciding that we all don't care either. Personally, I based my vote on the lack of scumhunting and trying to get Droid off her with the tunnel vision comment.

As bad as that Monkey hammer was, I don't think he's scum. Scum hammering their partner without even giving them a chance to claim on D1 is ridiculous. I think it's just awful town play. On to who Starbuck's scumbuddy/buddies might be:

Claramata/Tarballs: As we know, Claramata only made one post and didn't say anything much at all. Tarballs makes a few comments towards Starbuck about the self-voting situation but none of them call her scummy. The strongest thing he says against her is that she's 'pushing a bit too hard'.

Spinach: disagrees a couple of times with Starbuck over self-voting but never calls her scummy, just saying that Starbuck did nothing to stimulate discussion. Starbuck's random vote is on Spinach but there's no interaction on her part aside from that.

ODDin and DNW went after Starbuck quite aggressively and I'm ruling out Monkey for the reason indicated above. The only other possible candidate is Hernz, who would only make sense as Starbuck's partner if he wound her up by self-voting to the point that she decided to put him back at L-1. Given the incredibly principled stance Starbuck took against self-voting, I'm not ruling this out. Her partner self-voting could also explain her outrage and the PM sent to myk. However, Hernz does go on the attack more strongly against her later on: in post 136, for example, he actively focuses on Starbuck and tries to push the discussion back to her.

In conclusion:

Vote: Tarballs

Let's hear from you. Who's scum with Starbuck?

If you look at the other people Locke Lamora suspects, it seems like he was operating under the assumption that the best place to look for scum was off the Starbuck wagon. Given that, it's not unreasonable to think he dedicated his night choice off the wagon too.

If KittyMo is scum, I think the best explanation of where his night choice was me, given how he pressured you and Spinach day 2.

I'll admit that strictly reading Locke's day 1 posts it seems like Monkey was a much more likely night choice. While he suspected Henrz, Monkey seemed much more suspicious to him. However, we did not get to see Locke's pre-night choice reaction to two things:

1. The Starbuck Mafia Reveal with Henrz off the wagon
2. This delightful Henrz gem:

Is everyone up for lynching Monkey tomorrow (depending on if Starbuck is scum or not)?

Those two things might have seemed scummy enough to Locke to draw the night choice.

I'm not arguing that given Locke's posts alone it is more likely that he tracked Henrz than Monkey. But given Locke's posts AND Monkey's scumminess, that is what I am arguing.

[Sanjay]

This would also explain why KittyMo thought the idea to analyze Locke's posts was just great and yet she had no motivation to do it herself.

It demonstrates:

1) A trust in townies.
2) An unwillingness to cast more light on a line of thinking that seems to clear her.

Both seem like mafia traits more than town traits.

So I believe KittyMo when she says that buddying was not the intent of that post, but I do not believe the intent was un-scummy.

[Sanjay]

KittyMo asked but I don't quite remember your response, Tarballs. If I missed it I apologize.

How did

you

make sense of the tracker situation when you voted for KittyMo?

[Tarballs]

As I already explained, I'm not going to blindly assume that Locke tracked Monkey/Kitty. I just figured it was the most likely option.

[Sanjay]

If KittyMo is scum, who do you think Locke tracked?

[ODDin]

This question is all wrong and can only possibly lead to confusion. Locke didn't know more than any of us when he chose his target for tracking. So the only things that could affect his decision are what people have actually said. So, if we want to try and find out who he would've tracked, it's ridiculous to bring actual roles into consideration.

So what, exactly, are you trying to do with this question?

[KittyMo]

All right, now that we have all our players, it's time to get back on topic.

Unvote

for now.

I look forward to finding scum

and/or duping the townies with you.

Why would this cross your mind if you are protown? This statement really doesn't feel right.

But you should know that I typically come off as very pro-town, so optimal play for you would probably be to regard me with the highest suspicion no matter how townie I seem.

Scum-slip?

After finishing my first read, my top suspect is KittyMo, or the

artist

formerly known as MonkeyMan576. Mainly because of how amazingly scummy Monkey was day one.

This is the beginning of your long trek of tunnel-vision.

If Monkey was town, let's assume he wouldn't be lying. If Monkey was scum, let's assume he wouldn't knowingly lynch his scumbuddy (that is what you are doing when you think KittyMo is town because Monkey hammered scum). Whether Monkey is town or scum, I find it much more likely that he didn't know he was hammering. While a clueless townie is more likely than a clueless mafioso to lose track of his partner's vote count, I find both explanations plausible.

You say here that it is more likely that he was town accidentally hammering than scum accidentally hammering, though you also seem to be convinced he is scum while saying this.

That looks a lot like scum busing/distancing to me. Who ends their explanation of a vote for A with "I'm still suspicious of B"? It seems like such a weird vote for a townie to make.

Also, why the heck did Monkey vote for Starbuck, rationally? If you re-read the posts of Day 1, Monkey was skeptical of almost all of the arguments against Starbuck. And yet when a bunch of votes pile on Starbuck, the fact that she hasn't been scumhunting alone is enough to draw a vote? It seems very strange to me.

1. MonkeyMan is not very rational.
2. I'm guessing his thought process when voting for Starbuck was "Hey, Droideka and Locke and all those protown smart people are voting for Starbuck. Now that I think about it, she IS suspicious. I still think Hernz is scummier though. But, they're smarter than me, so I'll go ahead and do what they say."
3. MonkeyMan was probably skeptical of arguments against Starbuck because inexperienced town tend to be like "Well, uh, everyone here seems protown...I dunno what to do and who to vote for. We need more evidence. Let's no lynch."

Bandwagoning isn't solely a scum habit, of course. Inexperienced town do it too, because they aren't that good at doing their own scumhunting and just go along with whatever. But it still strikes me as very suspicious. If Monkey was so inexperienced, where did he get the conviction to argue that the initial arguments against Starbuck lacked substance? That doesn't sound like inexperienced town going along with whatever to me.

See #3 above.

I don't know what to make of our dear deceased tracker's lack of interest in Monkey. That certainly is a point in KittyMo's favor. However, until KittyMo or someone else sufficiently explains away my doubts, I am comfortable with a

Vote: KittyMo.

"The facts say that it is very likely KittyMo was tracked, but I'm going to go ahead and vote her anyways because she's a convenient mislynch."

I'll admit that strictly reading Locke's day 1 posts it seems like Monkey was a much more likely night choice. While he suspected Henrz, Monkey seemed much more suspicious to him. However, we did not get to see Locke's pre-night choice reaction to two things:
1. The Starbuck Mafia Reveal with Henrz off the wagon
2. This delightful Henrz gem

Those two things might have seemed scummy enough to Locke to draw the night choice.

I'm not arguing that given Locke's posts alone it is more likely that he tracked Henrz than Monkey. But given Locke's posts AND Monkey's scumminess, that is what I am arguing.

Because Monkey being tracked doesn't fit your nice tunnel vision, you make up some excuse about how you instead are the confirmed townie.

It demonstrates:

1) A trust in townies.
2) An unwillingness to cast more light on a line of thinking that seems to clear her.

Both seem like mafia traits more than town traits.

#1 - Where did I say I trusted Tarballs?
#2 - What "light" should I have casted? You're implying that I needed to say "Tarballs, even though my role PM said I was town, there must be some reason why I'm not the confirmed townie"? I also find it hilarious that you refuse to accept that I'm probably the confirmed townie, and try to twist it so that you look confirmed, and then call me scummy for it.

If KittyMo is scum, who do you think Locke tracked?

Still trying to make yourself look town and keep up with your tunnel-vision.

Wow, Sanjay, just...wow. I'm going to have to think about whether my vote should return to you, or if I'm too swayed by OMGUS.

[Sanjay]

This question is all wrong and can only possibly lead to confusion. Locke didn't know more than any of us when he chose his target for tracking. So the only things that could affect his decision are what people have actually said. So, if we want to try and find out who he would've tracked, it's ridiculous to bring actual roles into consideration.

So what, exactly, are you trying to do with this question?

I think Locke tracking KittyMo is incompatible with KittyMo being scum. He would not have pushed for Monkey's lynch if he had done so. Tarballs seemed to think KittyMo was tracked and he somehow put that aside when voting for her. That seemed strange to me.

I wanted to know whether he just ignored his opinion on the tracking or if he had come up with an alternative idea of what happened.

Because if you can't explain how Locke might have tracked someone besides Monkey, it seems like a mistake to vote for KittyMo.

[Sanjay]

All right, now that we have all our players, it's time to get back on topic.

Unvote

for now.

I look forward to finding scum

and/or duping the townies with you.

Why would this cross your mind if you are protown? This statement really doesn't feel right.

Why would it cross my mind? Probably because I:

A) Assume there is mafia in this town
B) Know that from your perspective (well, maybe not YOUR perspective) you don't know whether I am that mafia.
C) Have a sense of humor

But you should know that I typically come off as very pro-town, so optimal play for you would probably be to regard me with the highest suspicion no matter how townie I seem.

Scum-slip?

How?

After finishing my first read, my top suspect is KittyMo, or the

artist

formerly known as MonkeyMan576. Mainly because of how amazingly scummy Monkey was day one.

This is the beginning of your long trek of tunnel-vision.

Firstly, why did you bold "artist"? Did you read somewhere that you could make things look more suspicious by

highlighting

random

words

? Do you think Prince references are scummy or something? I don't find this suspicious so much as puzzling.

Secondly, I have been guilty of tunnel vision before, but I see no problem in it. I focus on a player, try and see how much sense things make if I imagine they are scum, and if I think things make sense that way I act on my suspicions.

I'm sorry you don't like being put under pressure.

If Monkey was town, let's assume he wouldn't be lying. If Monkey was scum, let's assume he wouldn't knowingly lynch his scumbuddy (that is what you are doing when you think KittyMo is town because Monkey hammered scum). Whether Monkey is town or scum, I find it much more likely that he didn't know he was hammering. While a clueless townie is more likely than a clueless mafioso to lose track of his partner's vote count, I find both explanations plausible.

You say here that it is more likely that he was town accidentally hammering than scum accidentally hammering, though you also seem to be convinced he is scum while saying this.

That is NOT what I said. I said it is more likely that the average townie would accidentally hammer than the average mafioso, and I said that both things happen.

Given how clueless, inexperienced and irrational as you are making Monkey out to be, I don't know why there is a problem with me suggesting he might have unknowingly lynched his scumbuddy.

That looks a lot like scum busing/distancing to me. Who ends their explanation of a vote for A with "I'm still suspicious of B"? It seems like such a weird vote for a townie to make.

Also, why the heck did Monkey vote for Starbuck, rationally? If you re-read the posts of Day 1, Monkey was skeptical of almost all of the arguments against Starbuck. And yet when a bunch of votes pile on Starbuck, the fact that she hasn't been scumhunting alone is enough to draw a vote? It seems very strange to me.

1. MonkeyMan is not very rational.
2. I'm guessing his thought process when voting for Starbuck was "Hey, Droideka and Locke and all those protown smart people are voting for Starbuck. Now that I think about it, she IS suspicious. I still think Hernz is scummier though. But, they're smarter than me, so I'll go ahead and do what they say."
3. MonkeyMan was probably skeptical of arguments against Starbuck because inexperienced town tend to be like "Well, uh, everyone here seems protown...I dunno what to do and who to vote for. We need more evidence. Let's no lynch."

I think the second and third points aren't bad but I don't like the first one at all. Maybe Monkey wasn't the most logical guy. But we have to assume everyone has reasons for what they are doing or scumhunting is impossible. I wasn't asking for the brilliant airtight logic Monkey used to decide to vote. I was asking for his reasons. He had reasons.

As for the second point, while going along with the will of the protown seeming scumhunters is a newbie town characteristic, it is also a characteristic of scum. But yes, I can see that.

As for the third point, Monkey had no problem casting doubt about Clamaranta. It is only regarding Starbuck that he argued that town was on the wrong track and was blowing things all out of proportion. So I'm not entirely satisfied with the explanation that he was just newbie town doing as newbie town does. Though perhaps there was something about the Clamaranta case that really appealed to Monkey in a way the Starbuck case did not.

I don't know what to make of our dear deceased tracker's lack of interest in Monkey. That certainly is a point in KittyMo's favor. However, until KittyMo or someone else sufficiently explains away my doubts, I am comfortable with a

Vote: KittyMo.

"The facts say that it is very likely KittyMo was tracked, but I'm going to go ahead and vote her anyways because she's a convenient mislynch."

You are vastly overstating what the facts state about you being tracked.

I'll admit that strictly reading Locke's day 1 posts it seems like Monkey was a much more likely night choice. While he suspected Henrz, Monkey seemed much more suspicious to him. However, we did not get to see Locke's pre-night choice reaction to two things:
1. The Starbuck Mafia Reveal with Henrz off the wagon
2. This delightful Henrz gem

Those two things might have seemed scummy enough to Locke to draw the night choice.

I'm not arguing that given Locke's posts alone it is more likely that he tracked Henrz than Monkey. But given Locke's posts AND Monkey's scumminess, that is what I am arguing.

Because Monkey being tracked doesn't fit your nice tunnel vision, you make up some excuse about how you instead are the confirmed townie.

You think you are a confirmed townie? Please explain how you got this confirmed status. All I recall was Tarballs saying that Locke Lamora might have been dropping a hint that he tracked you night one. You are hardly confirmed in my eyes.

And I am hardly trying to make myself out to be a confirmed townie. My argument goes "if KittyMo is scum, Henrz was probably the one tracked N1". How does that confirm me? All this line of arguing really says is "if KittyMo is scum, Henrz probably isn't." Given that town is operating under the assumption that there was only one scum left, I don't see how this line of reasoning clears me more than anyone else.

It demonstrates:

1) A trust in townies.
2) An unwillingness to cast more light on a line of thinking that seems to clear her.

Both seem like mafia traits more than town traits.

#1 - Where did I say I trusted Tarballs?
#2 - What "light" should I have casted? You're implying that I needed to say "Tarballs, even though my role PM said I was town, there must be some reason why I'm not the confirmed townie"? I also find it hilarious that you refuse to accept that I'm probably the confirmed townie, and try to twist it so that you look confirmed, and then call me scummy for it.

You didn't say it, you did it. For all you know, Locke Lamora could have made a post like "It is so hard to keep

track

of things, but I really think Tarballs is scummy." Despite the high regard you had for the idea of a Locke Lamora post analysis, you trusted that that valuable information could be safely delivered by Tarballs.

As I said before, I am not trying to twist anything to make me look confirmed, and I think you are either misrepresenting me or misreading me to say so.

The light you would cast on the issue is your own analysis of Locke's posts. Or even commenting on Tarballs's reasoning.

If KittyMo is scum, who do you think Locke tracked?

Still trying to make yourself look town and keep up with your tunnel-vision.

Wow, Sanjay, just...wow. I'm going to have to think about whether my vote should return to you, or if I'm too swayed by OMGUS.

That question wasn't tunnel vision. Just the opposite. I was asking for Tarballs to provide a reasonable explanation for who Locke tracked if not you because if he couldn't it seems unlikely you'd be scum.

As long as the question is preceded by the qualifier, "If KittyMo is scum", I am in no way making myself look any townier than anyone else.

Lastly, saying you are worried about OMGUS doesn't mean you're not OMGUSing. All in all, you either misread or misrepresented most of my argument.

[Sanjay]

My vote on you is motivated by these factors:

1) MonkeyMan was acting scummy and I feel like the only things in your favor are that he hammered Starbuck and may have been tracked by Locke.
2) I think MonkeyMan hammering Starbuck clears you a lot less than the town has been acting like, since he did it unwittingly.
3) The idea that Locke tracked you is uncertain.

If you read deviousness into any of those points, by all means vote for me.

[KittyMo]

But you should know that I typically come off as very pro-town, so optimal play for you would probably be to regard me with the highest suspicion no matter how townie I seem.

Scum-slip?

How?

I can't think of a reason why you would say that besides being arrogant scum.

After finishing my first read, my top suspect is KittyMo, or the

artist

formerly known as MonkeyMan576. Mainly because of how amazingly scummy Monkey was day one.

This is the beginning of your long trek of tunnel-vision.

Firstly, why did you bold "artist"? Did you read somewhere that you could make things look more suspicious by

highlighting

random

words

? Do you think Prince references are scummy or something? I don't find this suspicious so much as puzzling.

Secondly, I have been guilty of tunnel vision before, but I see no problem in it. I focus on a player, try and see how much sense things make if I imagine they are scum, and if I think things make sense that way I act on my suspicions.

I'm sorry you don't like being put under pressure.

#1 - I forgot to include the point about how the word "artist" seems to be a word casting suspicion on Monkey. Even if he was scum, I certainly wouldn't consider him an artist, because he's done a lot of newbie mistakes. My main goal of arguing with you isn't to make you look suspicious; however, I'm not sure if this is true of you.

#2 - Mmmmkay. If you end up lynching me, I hope the people left alive will look at this statement and make sure it's true.

If Monkey was town, let's assume he wouldn't be lying. If Monkey was scum, let's assume he wouldn't knowingly lynch his scumbuddy (that is what you are doing when you think KittyMo is town because Monkey hammered scum). Whether Monkey is town or scum, I find it much more likely that he didn't know he was hammering. While a clueless townie is more likely than a clueless mafioso to lose track of his partner's vote count, I find both explanations plausible.

You say here that it is more likely that he was town accidentally hammering than scum accidentally hammering, though you also seem to be convinced he is scum while saying this.

That is NOT what I said. I said it is more likely that the average townie would accidentally hammer than the average mafioso, and I said that both things happen.

Given how clueless, inexperienced and irrational as you are making Monkey out to be, I don't know why there is a problem with me suggesting he might have unknowingly lynched his scumbuddy.

"making Monkey out to be"? Not really. It's pretty much fact.He was basically the Day 1 mislynch, except people decided to cheat and use role PMs to confirm him.
Oh, and here's some other meta I found that I have not actually read:
Mislynched Day 1. Mislynched Day 2 as TOWN ROLEBLOCKER. Mislynched Day 1 as COP Mislynched Day 1 as COP (again)
These are just random games that came up when I searched; I didn't pick the worst ones out purposefully. Hopefully this will give you an idea of this guy's playstyle.

Anyways, back to the question at hand, I do understand where you're coming from, though I still think from your perspective it would seem more likely that he was town committing the clueless hammer. I can't seem to find scum meta from him, so I can't show you it.

That looks a lot like scum busing/distancing to me. Who ends their explanation of a vote for A with "I'm still suspicious of B"? It seems like such a weird vote for a townie to make.

Also, why the heck did Monkey vote for Starbuck, rationally? If you re-read the posts of Day 1, Monkey was skeptical of almost all of the arguments against Starbuck. And yet when a bunch of votes pile on Starbuck, the fact that she hasn't been scumhunting alone is enough to draw a vote? It seems very strange to me.

1. MonkeyMan is not very rational.
2. I'm guessing his thought process when voting for Starbuck was "Hey, Droideka and Locke and all those protown smart people are voting for Starbuck. Now that I think about it, she IS suspicious. I still think Hernz is scummier though. But, they're smarter than me, so I'll go ahead and do what they say."
3. MonkeyMan was probably skeptical of arguments against Starbuck because inexperienced town tend to be like "Well, uh, everyone here seems protown...I dunno what to do and who to vote for. We need more evidence. Let's no lynch."

I think the second and third points aren't bad but I don't like the first one at all. Maybe Monkey wasn't the most logical guy. But we have to assume everyone has reasons for what they are doing or scumhunting is impossible. I wasn't asking for the brilliant airtight logic Monkey used to decide to vote. I was asking for his reasons. He had reasons.

As for the second point, while going along with the will of the protown seeming scumhunters is a newbie town characteristic, it is also a characteristic of scum. But yes, I can see that.

As for the third point, Monkey had no problem casting doubt about Clamaranta. It is only regarding Starbuck that he argued that town was on the wrong track and was blowing things all out of proportion. So I'm not entirely satisfied with the explanation that he was just newbie town doing as newbie town does. Though perhaps there was something about the Clamaranta case that really appealed to Monkey in a way the Starbuck case did not.

1. Regarding the Clamaranta thing: MonkeyMan's doing the "OK, sure, that makes sense" thing that newbies do without really thinking.
2. Regarding Starbuck: My guess is: Because he's always the Day 1 mislynch over saying something stupid, he felt bad that everyone was immediately jumping on Starbuck for saying one stupid thing. When Starbuck went on to do a bunch more scummy things, he decided to jump on the bandwagon because at that point it finally did make sense to him. That also would explain the "oh all right" attitude at the time of the vote.

I don't know what to make of our dear deceased tracker's lack of interest in Monkey. That certainly is a point in KittyMo's favor. However, until KittyMo or someone else sufficiently explains away my doubts, I am comfortable with a

Vote: KittyMo.

"The facts say that it is very likely KittyMo was tracked, but I'm going to go ahead and vote her anyways because she's a convenient mislynch."

You are vastly overstating what the facts state about you being tracked.

Sorry. It's just from my perspective I know myself to be town, and if I'm town there's a 95% chance I was tracked, so it's irritating from my perspective when I know I could be considered conf-town, that I am not.

I'll admit that strictly reading Locke's day 1 posts it seems like Monkey was a much more likely night choice. While he suspected Henrz, Monkey seemed much more suspicious to him. However, we did not get to see Locke's pre-night choice reaction to two things:
1. The Starbuck Mafia Reveal with Henrz off the wagon
2. This delightful Henrz gem

Those two things might have seemed scummy enough to Locke to draw the night choice.

I'm not arguing that given Locke's posts alone it is more likely that he tracked Henrz than Monkey. But given Locke's posts AND Monkey's scumminess, that is what I am arguing.

Because Monkey being tracked doesn't fit your nice tunnel vision, you make up some excuse about how you instead are the confirmed townie.

You think you are a confirmed townie? Please explain how you got this confirmed status. All I recall was Tarballs saying that Locke Lamora might have been dropping a hint that he tracked you night one. You are hardly confirmed in my eyes.

And I am hardly trying to make myself out to be a confirmed townie. My argument goes "if KittyMo is scum, Henrz was probably the one tracked N1". How does that confirm me? All this line of arguing really says is "if KittyMo is scum, Henrz probably isn't." Given that town is operating under the assumption that there was only one scum left, I don't see how this line of reasoning clears me more than anyone else.

I misunderstood you.

It demonstrates:

1) A trust in townies.
2) An unwillingness to cast more light on a line of thinking that seems to clear her.

Both seem like mafia traits more than town traits.

#1 - Where did I say I trusted Tarballs?
#2 - What "light" should I have casted? You're implying that I needed to say "Tarballs, even though my role PM said I was town, there must be some reason why I'm not the confirmed townie"? I also find it hilarious that you refuse to accept that I'm probably the confirmed townie, and try to twist it so that you look confirmed, and then call me scummy for it.

You didn't say it, you did it. For all you know, Locke Lamora could have made a post like "It is so hard to keep

track

of things, but I really think Tarballs is scummy." Despite the high regard you had for the idea of a Locke Lamora post analysis, you trusted that that valuable information could be safely delivered by Tarballs.

As I said before, I am not trying to twist anything to make me look confirmed, and I think you are either misrepresenting me or misreading me to say so.

The light you would cast on the issue is your own analysis of Locke's posts. Or even commenting on Tarballs's reasoning.[/quote]
1. I'm misreading you.
2. I had read Locke in iso to do a PBPA on him, and I didn't notice anything before, so going to look at him as well was not the first thing that came to my mind. Right now, I'm reading over Locke's posts.

Kitty, you can stop being indecisive now if you like

That's really the only notable thing I found.

I do think that what Tarballs said makes sense with what has happened, because it seemed that on D1, Locke's top suspects were Starbuck and Monkey, and when D2 rolled around, Locke changed his mind, asked me questions to get me involved in discussion but never mentioned Monkey or me being scummy, and teased me.

[Sanjay]

I hope you don't mind me trimming these quote trees a little before they get out of hand.

I can't think of a reason why you would say that besides being arrogant scum.

I can see how you see telling everyone to regard me with the utmost suspicion as arrogant. I was really just trying to level the playing field as far as my practically non-existent meta goes. I was trying to be helpful. But I see how you could read that as an arrogant player "bring it on".

But I don't see why it is especially scummy. Do you see arrogance as a scumtell?

#1 - I forgot to include the point about how the word "artist" seems to be a word casting suspicion on Monkey. Even if he was scum, I certainly wouldn't consider him an artist, because he's done a lot of newbie mistakes. My main goal of arguing with you isn't to make you look suspicious; however, I'm not sure if this is true of you.

#2 - Mmmmkay. If you end up lynching me, I hope the people left alive will look at this statement and make sure it's true.

#1. I didn't mean to cast suspicion on Monkey by calling him an artist. It might have been a little tongue and cheek because obviously Monkey has been no artist, but mainly I was just going for a Prince reference. If you read ill-intent into this, I think you are either oversensitive (slightly suspicious), or we have a difference of opinion on how suspicious artists are (a null tell, I guess).

#2. I'm curious. What part of that statement do you think I am liable to contradict? My approach to scumhunting is imagining various possibilities and picking the one that makes the most sense. I think it is a very logical way to think about things. I don't plan on abandoning it, so I am fine with the town holding me to that statement.

Did you interpret the statement in a way that might tie my hands more if I was scum?

"making Monkey out to be"? Not really. It's pretty much fact.He was basically the Day 1 mislynch, except people decided to cheat and use role PMs to confirm him.
Oh, and here's some other meta I found that I have not actually read:
Mislynched Day 1. Mislynched Day 2 as TOWN ROLEBLOCKER. Mislynched Day 1 as COP Mislynched Day 1 as COP (again)
These are just random games that came up when I searched; I didn't pick the worst ones out purposefully. Hopefully this will give you an idea of this guy's playstyle.

Anyways, back to the question at hand, I do understand where you're coming from, though I still think from your perspective it would seem more likely that he was town committing the clueless hammer. I can't seem to find scum meta from him, so I can't show you it.

From what I could see of those threads, Town-Monkey was rash and in your face and unashamed of his suspicions. He rarely bandwagonned. He came across as scummy to many town and that is why he has such a terrible record (also, in two of those threads, bad luck).

So I do think you are making Monkey out to be something he is not when you talk about how, out of his inexperience, he just went along with what the other players were doing and how, out of his inexeperience, he decided to defend Starbuck.

I don't necessarily read malicious intent into you doing that, because I don't expect you to have done an extensive meta on yourself since you already know your alignment. But there are some ways in which town-Monkey plays poorly, but I don't see how those ways help you.

Also, in reading those threads, I never saw Monkey make nearly as wishy washy a vote as the one he made on Starbuck.

There are some parts of my read that play to your favor, though. Henrz's self-vote actually came at an advantageous point for Starbuck. Before it, she was the only one with much suspicion on her. So I viewed the unshakable belief Monkey had that self-voters were just the worst people in the world as suspiciously convenient. But I saw some similarity between Monkey's argument here and his argument against ChaosOmega in the first few pages of this thread you linked to. He convinced himself something was anti-town and then became kind of closeminded towards arguments that it might, in a certain light not be.

I'm going to try and find some games where Monkey flipped mafia to compare.

1. Regarding the Clamaranta thing: MonkeyMan's doing the "OK, sure, that makes sense" thing that newbies do without really thinking.
2. Regarding Starbuck: My guess is: Because he's always the Day 1 mislynch over saying something stupid, he felt bad that everyone was immediately jumping on Starbuck for saying one stupid thing. When Starbuck went on to do a bunch more scummy things, he decided to jump on the bandwagon because at that point it finally did make sense to him. That also would explain the "oh all right" attitude at the time of the vote.

Take a closer look at some of the Monkey games you linked to and let me know if you find evidence of this kind of thought process. As far as I saw, he didn't really seem like the unthinking, bandwagon jumping type.

Sorry. It's just from my perspective I know myself to be town, and if I'm town there's a 95% chance I was tracked, so it's irritating from my perspective when I know I could be considered conf-town, that I am not.

Perhaps you could comment on why you consider my statement that Locke could have been targeting Henrz so implausible. I look at his posts and I'm not sure who he tracked or what he saw. Could you expand a little on how you decided there was a 95% chance you were the one tracked?

I had read Locke in iso to do a PBPA on him, and I didn't notice anything before, so going to look at him as well was not the first thing that came to my mind. Right now, I'm reading over Locke's posts.

Kitty, you can stop being indecisive now if you like

That's really the only notable thing I found.

I do think that what Tarballs said makes sense with what has happened, because it seemed that on D1, Locke's top suspects were Starbuck and Monkey, and when D2 rolled around, Locke changed his mind, asked me questions to get me involved in discussion but never mentioned Monkey or me being scummy, and teased me.

That's a decent explanation for why you didn't do another Locke read. I do think you might have been in error for just trusting Tarballs analysis even if it was good news, but I think that error might have been made on the town side considering you just made a Locke iso.

Something did change from D1 to D2 as far as Locke's feelings towards Monkey go. But not one but two very important things happened in that time period. Locke had a night action AND Starbuck flipped scum. If I recall correctly, Starbuck flipping scum was enough to clear Monkey in my predecessor's eyes, so I don't consider it impossible or implausible that Locke thought the same.

In closing:

If someone can argue how KittyMo is a confirmed townie, that would be very useful to the town. I don't really see it.

MonkeyMan's Day 1 play still strikes me as odd.

I got a bit distracted responding to KittyMo's strong opposition to my initial post. I will work on my reads of the other town members soon. In the meantime, given my initial suspicions and the less than calm manner in which KittyMo responded to them, I'll leave my vote where it is.

Also, I'm sorry I'm posting big walls of text right now. I know it isn't the best for discussion. Hopefully I'll be able to be more pointed with my posts once I'm finished my initial reads.

[KittyMo]

I can see how you see telling everyone to regard me with the utmost suspicion as arrogant. I was really just trying to level the playing field as far as my practically non-existent meta goes. I was trying to be helpful. But I see how you could read that as an arrogant player "bring it on".

But I don't see why it is especially scummy. Do you see arrogance as a scumtell?

I guess I just don't understand why someone from a protown perspective would think to say "you should find me suspicious."

Something did change from D1 to D2 as far as Locke's feelings towards Monkey go. But not one but two very important things happened in that time period. Locke had a night action AND Starbuck flipped scum. If I recall correctly, Starbuck flipping scum was enough to clear Monkey in my predecessor's eyes, so I don't consider it impossible or implausible that Locke thought the same.

No. Locke and Hernz do not have anywhere near the same critical thinking level. If you're going to argue that, then you're going to have to explain a lot of what Hernz did that has been attributed to newbishness.

I got a bit distracted responding to KittyMo's strong opposition to my initial post. I will work on my reads of the other town members soon. In the meantime, given my initial suspicions and the less than calm manner in which KittyMo responded to them, I'll leave my vote where it is.

I think the issue here is I can only guess why MonkeyMan did certain things. I have no idea. It's incredibly difficult and frustrating having to defend myself from things that ARE sensible points, just that I know based on my perspective that they are wrong. At least if I get lynched it will be a lesson to you that not being able to explain your predecessor's actions is not always = to BS. This is exactly why I asked Mykonian to have MonkeyMan take his spot back, because there was so much he left unexplained for the town.

[KittyMo]

Prods on MiteyMouse and ODDin, please.

[mykonian]

Prods on MiteyMouse and ODDin, please.

I simply can't resist when you are asking me that way.

[ODDin]

Prod received. I have a test tomorrow, so I'm afraid I won't be replying today, sorry, but I will try to make a post tomorrow evening tops. However, my last post was 2 days ago, and it wasn't a filler post, so I'm not sure why I've earned a prod.

[mykonian]

because of the recent burst of activity, it is better to prod you now, then wait. It might get the game more active

[Sanjay]

KittyMo, please be specific about the many things Henrz did that would no longer make sense if I argued that Locke and Henrz reached the same conclusion about MonkeyMan's Starbuck hammer.

Then perhaps you could explain how two people reaching the same conclusion implies that they have the same critical thinking level.

[MiteyMouse]

Welcome Sanjay...

unvote

I'm going to reread and post soon. I hope tonight but, it may be tomorrow.

[KittyMo]

I've been thinking, and I wonder if there's any reason why I shouldn't be today's lynch, besides the fact that I'm town.

Reasons Why I Should Be Lynched:
- Every living player has expressed high suspicion of me. The only thing going for me is that I may have been tracked and gotten an innocent verdict.
- I am probably the least intelligent player remaining in the game, and so come tomorrow I am probably least likely to make the correct decision.
- Even if I am not lynched today, it seems likely that I'll be tomorrow's mislynch, losing the game for the town, since no other player slot has committed so many scumtells.

Reasons Why I Shouldn't Be Lynched:
- I'm town.
- I am most likely to be the confirmed innocent of the tracker.

This may seem defeatist, but I am honestly starting to see myself as the best lynch for the day. =o