mini 814: OVER!

[MiteyMouse]

Kitty....are you Scum?

I have more to this but, want her to answer this first.

[ODDin]

First of all, I want to apologise for my post 385. I didn't read the previous posts in the proper order of the discussion and thought Sanjay's words to mean something else. Upon rereading it, I realise that his point in asking the question was quite clear indeed.

That being said, I'm not sure I want to speculate on Locke's intentions too much. He barely gave us any info, I don't know him enough as a player, and I still think that his line about not laying off Monkey is perfectly understandable given what has happened, without need for special power role info. And I don't think pondering about confirmed townies is helpful right now.

Now, on to other things:

1) In his post 378, where Sanjay brings the bulk of his argument against Kitty, he also says things in her favour. To me, this seems like town points - if he just wanted to make a case and lynch Kitty, he would avoid stating things that speak in her favour.

2) In her post 386, Kitty is being extremely defensive, and also attacks Sanjay back, which reeks of OMGUS. Also, she seems to be accusing Sanjay of voting for her while still saying things in her favour, but this doesn't make sense. It's possible for scum to do things which give the town points. On the contrary, like I said in (1) above, this probably speaks in Sanjay's favour, rather than being ground for an accusation against him.

3) There's a peculiar inconsistency in KittyMo's tone of speaking. First she's all cute and cuddly, ready to give people compliments and such. Then when it comes to Monkey (or, perhaps, when it comes to defending her own hide), she's thrashing him like there's no tomorrow. Maybe it's because Monkey is no longer in the game, but if I were him, I'd be hurt by her words. And she's not exactly too kind in her words to Sanjay, either. I really can't help but get the feeling of "KittyMo shows her true self".

4) Sanjay: we're 5 people in the game. Focusing on a single player is fine in larger games, where you can trust other people to focus on the other players and when you want to concentrate on something specific. With five players, however, it's easy enough to be able to follow everyone. You only need to keep track of four people. So, no, tunneling in this situation isn't acceptable. And Kitty is right - you've been saying a lot about her, but practically nothing about anyone else in the game. What do you think of the other players? Even if you think we're all shining paragons of pro-towniness, you should say so, and explain why.

5) MiteyMouse: This is something I've somehow missed. You began your play with accusing me (post 334). Then I replied to your accusation (post 339, my last point there) - and you didn't react. In all of your posts after that, you don't seem to address the issue. How come? Whether you think my defence is sound or (especially or) you think my defence is BS and I'm still guilty- why do you say noting on the subject? Feels like you just wanted to say something, bring something new to the board to show activity ("woo, look, I'm making an original argument so I must be town"), but then you don't really care where the argument goes.

6)

No. Locke and Hernz do not have anywhere near the same critical thinking level. If you're going to argue that, then you're going to have to explain a lot of what Hernz did that has been attributed to newbishness.

That being said, it could have well caused him to direct his night action elsewhere. There's a long way between having someone cleared and believing him to be the best option for a nightly check. Seems quite possible to me that Monkey's hammer could cause Locke to consider someone else as a better option for a night visit, even if not entirely clearing Monkey.

7) Can't help but feel that Kitty's post 399 is an appeal to emotion, in a reverse psychology looking-for-compliments sort of way.

8) MiteyMouse, you asking whether Kitty is scum... uhh... how is that going to help you? I mean, she's obviously going to tell you "no". Are you going to look deep into her eyes to try to understand if she's lying?..

[Sanjay]

Point 4 was something I was meaning to rectify. Here's my reads on the non-KittyMo non-me members of town:

Tarballs

: My read of Tarballs is mildly townie. Two points:

1. He seemed to accept without debate the idea that the scum were off the Starbuck wagon. With only three people off the wagon and a scumpartner dead and three town lynches, this seems like pretty bad scum strategy.
2. Both his initial analysis of Locke Lamora's posts and him bringing it up after I questioned KittyMo seem motivated by a desire to figure out what is going on in this town rather than a desire to get people lynched.

Some evidence against Tarballs that I don't find that compelling:

1. Spinach's Tarballs analysis: I didn't find Tarballs's posts nearly as scummy as Spinach did. His posts in general have seemed mildly town.
2. Tarballs's day one voting: Tarballs voted for Henrz for good reasons (to encourage discussion and perhaps get some bandwagoners) and voted for MonkeyMan for good reasons (MonkeyMan was being a little inconsistent and suspicious). I can easily see a townie doing this.

ODDin

: ODDin seems like a townie to me. Here's why:

ODDin voted for Starbuck at a time that doesn't make too much sense from a perspective that wanted to keep Starbuck alive. With some suspicion that could probably be brushed aside already on her, it seems like an attack at that time would bring Starbuck from the "scummy enough to unsuspiciously avoid a night kill" stage to the "likely to be lynched" stage.

I'm not ruling out ODDin deliberately throwing his partner under the bus, but I think that is less likely, especially with Starbuck not just being a goon.

His posts have generally given off a pretty pro-town vibe to me.

The tomorrow slip is a little suspicious but there are two reasons I am not as worried about it:

1. Prior to the slip, there were posts like this one that also addressed tomorrow, and ODDin could have had them in mind.
2. While ODDin did hammer Spinach, he didn't seem all that excited about it. It seemed like the town was acting more out of deadline pressure than the resounding belief that Spinach was scum. It makes sense given this that what happens tomorrow might be on his mind.

MiteyMouse

: I'd like to break this one down into the three people that played this spot.

My thoughts about DNW

:

DNW was the first to pick up scum vibes from Starbuck. This is kind of a double edged sword in terms of scumminess. On one hand, calling attention to your scum partner is something you wouldn't really want to do. On the other hand, good scum love to distance each other and because they know to look, they can be the best at finding their partner's scummy behavior.

If I were to guess, DNW's attacks on Starbuck and her reaction seem like earnest attacks. However, because DNW wasn't really around when the actual lynch went down, his presence on the Starbuck wagon shouldn't win him any points. It's a real shame DNR didn't stay around. It would have been nice to know whether the concluding line of this post was a townie being reasonable or scum making sure he had an out.

I don't think it is especially strange that DNW didn't answer his own questions. It might not have occured to him. I know scum are more prone to question dodging, but if you are stumping yourself with your own questions that's pretty ridiculous.

I got a minor town-vibe from DNW but the fact that he was absent when Starbuck actually got lynched undercuts that.

My thoughts about Fluffy

:

On my first readthrough, I was so impressed with DNW being the first to catch Starbuck that I had kind of turned a blind eye to the little penguin. But on a re-read, I noticed she barely did any scumhunting. Also, I think of all the players that decided that only people off the wagon were worth suspicion, Fluffy had the worst rationale for it.

Have you ever seen a game where replacements automatically unvote? I've never heard of that, but I'm new to the forum so what do I know? But if you've never heard of that either, don't you think this request is a little strange?

This post is a little strange. If Fluffy liked the analysis, why keep the vote on Spinach? Also, what a very vague response.

My read on Fluffy: kinda scummy.

My thoughts about MiteyMouse

:

I'd like to quote this post, because it seems a bit off to me.

Ah...the self vote. Well Henrz got things going and that is good but, self votes such!

Now the pile onto him was quite interesting. Tarballs, Monkey (Kitty) and then the known Scum Starbuck on that pile. Now this is interesting partly because it was so fast and because it would have seemed to be an easy lynch.

Monkey switching between the accounts is making me crazy!!! Also, with Monkey, that hammer without allowing Fluffy to even comment looks really bad to me...especially so quick after Starbuck got to L-1...looks like opportunistic Scum to me. And then playing dumb after the fact...wow.

Day 2 and I'm really noticing that ODDin is just stalling and stalling. This could have all been real issues but, coming in every few days to post an excuse is not helping anything. He did come in and post content but, there was a lot of active lurking before.

Oh and KittyMo...you are so much better than the first time we played. I'm so happy to see how good you've become! Also, Myk PMed me as well and though it was a bigger read than I normally replace into, I was so flattered that I accepted...and seeing Henrz and Kitty here were icing on the cake!

Firstly, as far as I could see, this is the MiteyMouse case against ODDin. Is there something more than that, MiteyMouse? I don't really see how this justifies ODDin being your number two suspect, especially when you aren't concerned about the scumslip.

Secondly, how was Monkey lynching Starbuck "opportunistic"? Did you forget Starbuck was scum? Was the concept of Fluffy posting so dangerous to MonkeyMan that he just had to end the day right there?

Thirdly, if you are the kind of person that gets really suspicious about buddying, MiteyMouse is an even buddier buddy than KittyMo. Personally I'd rather play in a meta where buddying isn't a scum tell and we'd all be friendly and nice to each other while we decide who to kill, but if that is not the meta for you, MiteyMouse should be tripping your scumdar.

Also, I think MiteyMouse was pushing a lot harder than necessary to get my predecessor lynched for inactivity. I mean, seriously?

MiteyMouse seems kind of scummy to me.

So all in all, I am pretty suspicious of MiteyMouse.

[Sanjay]

Oh, there is one more thing I wanted to add about MiteyMouse:

One post that has always confused me was Starbuck's little post hammer rant:

It's unfortunate that you all let my personal preference of not liking self-voting be the main reason behind my lynch, rather than finding anything actually scummy. I have been working on a notepad document that I was going to post now that I got home from work. Now all that hard work has gone to waste and it's not worth posting because it's obvious that you all just didn't care. I would have hoped that a claim would have been waited for from such

experienced

mafia players or that the replacement would be given time to catch up. I will be sure not to place into games with any of you again.

AND

It's just crap. I was asked to give my suspicions. I've had a notepad document going because I prefer big analysis posts rather than the 5 billion posts people make when doing analysis. I was going to finish it up when I got home and post it. I was getting ready to and noticed I was hammered. No wait, no nothing. I really was looking forward to this game, thank you all for ruining it based on the fact that I hate self-voting rather than anything scummy.

This post has always seemed off to me because it runs in contrast with reality. Starbuck was did do scummy things outside of her connection to the self-voting affair. The biggest one was how she didn't handle questions very well from DNW.

When I'm scum, if someone says something I did was scummy, my immediate reaction is OH CRAP. I have this secret fear that my every action is betraying my true intentions. If someone tells me something I did is a scumtell, I would obviously debate it, but I would secretly believe them.

How could she forget DNW found her scummy?

There are two explanations:

1. Starbuck is different enough from me that the fact that I would never forget that I was found scummy isn't relevant. She just didn't think DNW's accusations had much merit so she didn't consider them.
2. DNW was scum so Starbuck didn't take his accusations seriously.

It just seems odd to me that Starbuck would get so upset when her opinions on self-lynching were not the only thing that got her lynched.

[ODDin]

That's an interesting point about Starbuck there. However, you should notice she was being extremely emotional at the moment. She accused the entire town of lynching her prematurely - instead of accusing only Monkey, whose fault alone it really was (if, indeed, it was not intended with him being her scumbuddy). So, much like promising not to replace into games with any of us playing, it makes sense that she also focused on what annoyed her most in the argument. "you lynched me because I hate self-voting" is more concise, angry and emotional than "you lynched me because I hate self-voting and some other mildly scummy stuff".

Also, on MiteyMouse, I still do disagree on the buddying issue (see my post 353).

That being said, when I look at this again, it is yet another instance of MiteyMouse abandoning the case. For the love of god, I've admitted to some WIFOM and I'm one of your top suspects, do something about it...

Also, I think I have an idea what MiteyMouse was doing with post 400: active lurking. He does something seemingly meaningful, but in fact, he's delaying saying anything of any value until he gets an answer for a question which can only possibly have one answer. It's a question which gives absolutely zero information. Only reason this makes sense is an incredibly poor attempt to fake activity.

MiteMouse is my top suspect, with KittyMo a second. And maybe it's about time to get down from the fence and put some pressure.

Vote: MiteyMouse

.

[KittyMo]

Kitty....are you Scum?

I have more to this but, want her to answer this first.

Nope...?

3) There's a peculiar inconsistency in KittyMo's tone of speaking. First she's all cute and cuddly, ready to give people compliments and such. Then when it comes to Monkey (or, perhaps, when it comes to defending her own hide), she's thrashing him like there's no tomorrow. Maybe it's because Monkey is no longer in the game, but if I were him, I'd be hurt by her words. And she's not exactly too kind in her words to Sanjay, either. I really can't help but get the feeling of "KittyMo shows her true self".

I am an emotional person. =S And sorry if I have offended Monkey or Sanjay.

7) Can't help but feel that Kitty's post 399 is an appeal to emotion, in a reverse psychology looking-for-compliments sort of way.[/quote]
Nope. I'm actually serious.

[Sanjay]

I wasn't offended. Whether you are town and misread me or mafia and overly concerned with threats to your survival your reaction made sense within the game. You might want to apologize to MonkeyMan, but that doesn't really have any bearing on the game.

We all have ways in which we stray from perfect mafia play. As far as I can tell, MonkeyMan makes himself an easy mislynch and can be a little stubborn. However, if you assume because he isn't perfect in those regards that he also acts like a newbie in every other regard, you are going to misunderstand him and provide poor explanations for his behavior.

I consider MonkeyMan's unexplained scummy behavior a point against you, but I do not consider your inability to explain his scummy behavior another point against you.

Though actually this isn't a bad explanation for Monkey's behavior:

Regarding Starbuck: My guess is: Because he's always the Day 1 mislynch over saying something stupid, he felt bad that everyone was immediately jumping on Starbuck for saying one stupid thing. When Starbuck went on to do a bunch more scummy things, he decided to jump on the bandwagon because at that point it finally did make sense to him. That also would explain the "oh all right" attitude at the time of the vote.

As for your plan to mislynch you, no thanks. That's not a good plan.

Let's assume you are town and there is only one mafia member left:

If we mislynch you, we are in lynch or lose and must correctly figure out the real scum to win.
If we lynch someone else, if we are right we win and if we don't we are put into a situation where we must correctly figure out the real scum to win. Maybe we are so overwhelmed by your scumniness we mislynch you and lose. Maybe not.

With the first option, we are only getting one useful lynch. With the second option, we get one lynch that is just as useful, and one lynch that is slightly compromised by your scumminess confusing everything. Clearly the second option is better. If you consider your lynching a near certainty it isn't much better, but it is still better.

So while, if you are town, I appreciate your willingness to sacrifice yourself, but it is neither needed or wanted.

[Sanjay]

Kitty....are you Scum?

I have more to this but, want her to answer this first.

Nope...?

Looks like you fell right into MiteyMouse's trap.

[KittyMo]

Kitty....are you Scum?

I have more to this but, want her to answer this first.

Nope...?

Looks like you fell right into MiteyMouse's trap.

???

[MiteyMouse]

If you are not Scum Kitty, then don't give up. You have been a strong presence in this game and your contributions have been good. And SanJay was making fun of me...I think.

My thoughts about MiteyMouse

:
1) Firstly, as far as I could see, this is the MiteyMouse case against ODDin. Is there something more than that, MiteyMouse? I don't really see how this justifies ODDin being your number two suspect, especially when you aren't concerned about the scumslip.

2) Secondly, how was Monkey lynching Starbuck "opportunistic"? Did you forget Starbuck was scum? Was the concept of Fluffy posting so dangerous to MonkeyMan that he just had to end the day right there?

3) Third, if you are the kind of person that gets really suspicious about buddying, MiteyMouse is an even buddier buddy than KittyMo. Personally I'd rather play in a meta where buddying isn't a scum tell and we'd all be friendly and nice to each other while we decide who to kill, but if that is not the meta for you, MiteyMouse should be tripping your scumdar.

4) Also, I think MiteyMouse was pushing a lot harder than necessary to get my predecessor lynched for inactivity. I mean, seriously?

MiteyMouse seems kind of scummy to me.

So all in all, I am pretty suspicious of MiteyMouse.

1) He was my number 2. I'm going to have to reread everything again. The stalling looks bad to me though.

2) That's the point of bussing Sanjay. Also, with a new player comes new perspective. Perhaps the perspective wasn't wanted at that point in the game. I've seen Scum do it before.

3) That is my meta...well a big part of it. I'm nice and cuddly. You can check my games if you'd like. I get accused of buddying almost every game that I play.

4) I already stated that this was frustration speaking.

[MiteyMouse]

Oh...MiteyMouse is a she!

[Sanjay]

Oh...MiteyMouse is a she!

Sorry if I messed that up.

And good thing you checked to see if she was scum before you told her not to give up. We wouldn't want to give comfort to our enemies.

[Sanjay]

MiteyMouse, could you point me to the posts where you feel ODDin is stalling?

[KittyMo]

If you are not Scum Kitty, then don't give up. You have been a strong presence in this game and your contributions have been good. And SanJay was making fun of me...I think.

Wow. I feel stupid now. Him being sarcastic never occured to me... =/

[Tarballs]

Sanjay prodded me. Apologies, it's been a difficult week for me, but I'll make a proper post later today.

[ODDin]

MiteyMouse, sorry for referring to you as a man, but you didn't specify your gender in your account.

All of my points remain, however, including the fact that the question about whether kitty is scum was most likely buying time.
And you still haven't responded to any of my points, really.

[Tarballs]

Tarballs seemed to think KittyMo was tracked and he somehow put that aside when voting for her. That seemed strange to me.

I wanted to know whether he just ignored his opinion on the tracking or if he had come up with an alternative idea of what happened.

Because if you can't explain how Locke might have tracked someone besides Monkey, it seems like a mistake to vote for KittyMo.

I voted KittyMo because she seemed the scummiest. I still haven't completely decided my stance about whether she was tracked or not. I do say that I believe her to be the likeliest to have been tracked, but as long as there's no 100% certainty about it, I won't put too much trust in it. The only person alive who pretty clearly was not tracked is me. Everyone else is/was a possible target. Also, Locke might not have tracked the most obvious suspect, if he figured that person would end up lynched at some point anyway.

In any case, I'm not that convinced that KittyMo should be today's lynch anymore. One mislynch can still be afforded, so I guess it wouldn't hurt to keep her in case she really was tracked. She is still the scummiest, but very close behind is MiteyMouse, whose player slot really hasn't contributed much in the entire game. DnW was around for a few days, but she still managed to be the pro-towniest of all three. Fluffy and MiteyMouse have both been actively lurking, and lately we've seen some posts from MiteyMouse that just don't make any sense.

Oh Kitty...do we really want no one to vote further? Henrz is not responding despite the prods and stuff. I'm trying not to be frustrated with it but, it is getting to me.

You're either really impatient, or trigger happy. Either way, lynching someone without even giving him a chance to claim is not a pro-town move in any kind of way.

Kitty....are you Scum?

I have more to this but, want her to answer this first.

Really can't see the point of that post unless you're hoping that she admits scum, so that you won't need to bother with more analysis. I'm pretty sure you knew what she was going to answer, so your question was totally useless and it just seemed like a filler post.

Vote: MiteyMouse

That's L-1 and hopefully a wake-up call as well.

[Sanjay]

If you need any more motivation, MiteyMouse, this is a bandwagon I would be rather comfortable jumping on.

[MiteyMouse]

So...I guess it should be time for me to claim here. Well, I'm not going to. You will miss me more than my role and I don't want the Scum to have smaller pool to look for our power roles in. Sorry guys.

The question for Kitty was supposed to be more motivtional than anything else. She was giving up and if she is Town then we are going to need her. And that quote that you all keep posting was frustration speaking. Nothing more. bunch of you even commented on it being frustration, not to mention that in the quote, I say that I was frustrated.

ODD's stalling...in iso posts 8-15...that is 8 posts that span from July 11- Aug 5. Very little in the form of content and lots of time between these posts...posts 10 and 11 have 10 days between them. I don't know about you but, reading them, especially in isolation, they read like stalling.

[mykonian]

the circle, votecount

KittyMo

replaces MonkeyMan576

(1): Sanjay
Droideka_11:

vanilla towny

killed night 1
ODDin (0):
Spinach (0):

vanilla towny

lynched day 2
MiteyMouse

replaces Fluffy who replaced DOESnotWANT

(2): ODDin, Tarballs
Locke Lamora (0):

town tracker

killed night 2
Tarballs

replaces Claramata

(0):
Henrz (0):
Starbuck:

Mafia Silencer

lynched day 1

not voting (5): KittyMo, MiteyMouse

[Sanjay]

These are the posts ODDin made in that time period:

Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:11 pm
Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:46 pm
Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:08 am
Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:38 am
Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:11 pm
Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:46 pm
Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:20 pm
Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:24 pm
Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:41 pm

Those are the ones that look like stalling to you?

[Sanjay]

Firstly, besides the posts apologizing for inactivity (for which ODDin subsequently made up for), I see plenty of content.

Secondly, what strategic benefit would ODDin have for stalling during this time? Was he just stalling because he's scummy scum and he hates our freedoms?

[Sanjay]

Okay, I know I have been a passionate advocate of the "maybe Locke Lamora didn't track MonkeyMan" line of thinking, but I think I want to take it back.

Look at this post:

I didn't flat-out say 'either Spinach or Tarballs is scum', no. What I did say was that neither of you really attacked Starbuck like other players were doing, I didn't think ODDin, Fluffy or MonkeyMan were and

I figured Hernz was an outside chance

. I didn't think I needed to help you along any more than that. I was indicating that Hernz included you and Tarballs among his top suspects, not that you were the only people he thought might be scum.

As for the scum comment, I think three scum in a nine-player game would be pretty harsh and would also give them quite a lot of influence in the circle.

Kitty, Hernz: I don't think we've covered this; did either of you say anything to Starbuck, or get anything back? I don't know if you get told what Monkey said/received, Kitty.

Firstly, if Locke was looking for players that didn't attack Starbuck, then I find it hard to believe he wouldn't still be interested in a case against Monkey.

Secondly, if Locke had tracked Henrz, this would have been an excellent spot to breadcrumb his innocence with little risk. Locke did not do this. Locke must have realized how misleading the italicized part of the quote would be if he knew Henrz was innocent.

Thirdly, I think his reasons for losing interest in Henrz make a lot more sense than his reasons for losing in interest in Monkey. I assumed Locke was just being illogical, but I don't think I am giving him enough credit, and I think it makes more sense to believe Locke had other reasons for losing interest in Monkey.

I think I want to

unvote

.

[Sanjay]

MiteyMouse, if you didn't want to claim you could have just not claimed. Nobody asked.

[Sanjay]

I have a question for ODDin and Tarballs especially, but KittyMo and MiteyMouse are welcome to weigh in as well:

How genuine do you feel Starbuck's post-hammer rant was?