Newbie 844 - Game Over (Scum Win)

[Pyrogen]

Who is Laurel and Hardy?

[startransmission]

Ok, so where to begin. I'll jump in with a little player analysis. I know DarthRandal has just done this, but it's probably the best for me in order to crystallize my thoughts on the game so far, and something for you all to respond to. A lot that I'm going to say has been covered to death, I just want to throw my two cents in.

Pyrogen

- I'll start here as I find Pyro the most erratic player. I didn't like his vote for a no-lynch, only to say later that the no-lynch vote was in the spirit of the RVS. I especially didn't like it because later he says that his vote for a no lynch was in the spirit of the RVS- which he said earlier was "unfair". Contradictory and smacks of back peddling, especially as he posted more than once about how a no-lynch favors town, but as soon as the IC and the SEs respond otherwise his tune changes. Says he stuck with the no-lynch to inspire conversaton. The "for the sake of conversation" bit is employed by him again in the future.

I'm not a big fan of his "system" or the conversation surrounding it, but I see where he's coming from. He was attacked for it, and I thought he explained his PoV pretty well.

I really really hate his self vote and prompt unvote. For the sake of a bandwagon that didn't exist even after that post? The worst bit was the "am I a suitable lynch today?". He says this was designed to improve his play. Frankly we're not here as an exercise to help him improve his play, we're here to lynch scum. If he wants to get better at the game then fulfill the role you were given as best you can. This post is a distraction, and a possible bluff.

Says (emphatically) in post 77 that he never wanted a no lynch. Again, contradicting himself and sending mixed messages. For the sake of conversation, no doubt.

I enjoy the debate with fgads, a lot of good stuff is brought up there, and I think Pyro explained himself decently.

@Pyro, all in all I think I have to agree with others and consider you an overeager townie. Your "gambits" are reckless and distracting. I give them credit for driving conversation, but I fear that the direction of the conversation isn't necessarily helpful. IGMEOY.

Annachie

- Does quite a bit of fence sitting early on regarding a no lynch. Makes some decent points, but mostly asks good questions to get a feel for things. Strikes me as a townie dipping his toe in the water. I would like to point out his post 103 though, it shows good perception on his part.

xvart

- It's Tim Allen. So, starts off attacking Pyro for the no-lynch, so it's not really a random vote. However as soon as Pyro responds to the vote he moves it to somebody who hasn't voted. I don't know if I like the move from a reasoned vote to a random vote. No matter, he unvotes him soon enough and asks some questions of Annachie which were fair.

Reacts to Pyros self vote, and I agree with his post 70. A lot of the subsequent posts had to do with his (understandable) confusion regarding Pyros motives. Gets frustrated with this (and I assume other things in general) and calls out Pyro for being more of a distraction than anything. When I started reading his post 109 alarm bells went off. It occurred to me that whenever Pyro posted something questionable, xvart asked him about it and accepted whatever the response was. It felt like xvert was maybe attempting to diffuse any potential scum tells. Post 109 struck me as either xvert the scumbuddy finally getting fed up with Pyros high profile, or xvert the townie... well finally getting fed up with Pyro's play style. The fact that the post resulted in a vote has me leaning towards xvert being town. But I'm not too sure.

Crap, this is turning out to be more wordy than I'd hoped. I'll get to the rest of you in a few hours, and I'll try to keep it more concise. With the exception of two of you the rest of my summaries should be pretty brief.

[Annachie]

They were a comedy duo from the 1930's and 1940's who made funny movies. Lots of slapstick and milking jokes for all they could.

The catchphrase most associated with Laurel and Hardy is almost always misquoted as "Well, that's another fine mess you've gotten me into."


Given that I think that Just Me managed to out both himself and Dondero I find it funny that Dondero described him and Just Me as Laurel and Hardy.

[fhqwhgads]

Sorry, we had a public holiday yesterday, so I got some catching up to do:

I agree with hitogoroshi that looking for scum pairs is misleading this early in the game. Scum will probably avoid each other this early in the game, so we're much more likely to find someone acting scummy in isolation.

Ok, so it seems not much happened the last 2 days. The player analysis posts by both DarthRandal1138 and startransmission looks pretty good. I mostly agree with what they are saying and don't think anyone is being misinterpreted here.

I'd like to see more talking by Dondero and xvart.

[xvart]

I'd like to see more talking by Dondero and xvart.

Aloha from Hawai'i! We do have internet connection at the cost of $13/day (yikes!) and I've signed on every day so far, but between the sun and all the Mai Tai's I haven't felt comfortable posting anything (I've read too many games where someone says "well I was drunk!"

I hope to post something tonight with all the new analysis or maybe tomorrow.

xvart.

[hitogoroshi]

Given that I think that Just Me managed to

out both himself and Dondero

I find it funny that Dondero described him and Just Me as Laurel and Hardy.

See, it's this again. If you think that what transpired clearly "outed" Dondero and Justme as a scumpair, well, uh, you're completely wrong. Please see/respond to my last post.

[Annachie]

Strangely, Hitogoroshi, neither the post to which you refer nor this most recent one actually address the parts that make me think that the way I do. The parts you refered too just add to my suspicion.
Given that little else is making me suspicious at the moment I see little reason to change a vote until something more definate happens.
Though perhaps I should wonder at you saying that I'm completely wrong, since only 3 people (Besides Starkmoon herself) would know for certain.

Hitogoroshi, I notice that you have yet to actually cast a vote, random or otherwise.
(The last vote cast by anyone was Wednesday or about 90 hours ago)

[xvart]

Good evening. I had some Sake at dinner (as well as possibly the best steak of my life), so I apologize for any grammar mistakes that I might miss (grammar errors drive me nuts!).

I'd like to see more talking by Dondero and xvart.

Okay...

just me -

Not a fan of this comment right off the bat, saying we shouldn't vote until two days after the final confirmation;

day one is allways a bit of a gamble (taking from experiance in related previous games) but I think if we at leas wait at least 2 days after final player cnfirmation, it should let us get a bit of an idea of who we are dealing with and allow us to make a less random decision. for this to work effectively there needs to be as many talking players as possible, so, please post!
let's have a good one.

Then goes on about waiting to vote and throw accusations around. My honest opinion? Justme is waiting for a bandwagon or a somewhat majority opinion to jump into so as not to push anyone's buttons. I'm not sure if I'm digging the doesn't really want to comment but wants everyone else to post. Not sure if it is a scum read or not, but somewhat suspicious in my opinion. Might be worth pursuing. Justme - do you have anything to comment about that?

DarthRandal1138

- some solid posting and solid content. Not that scum can't post quality, but I feel safe with DarthRandal as town right now.

Dondero

- lack of posting is my biggest concern right now, especially in light of the whole justme/dondero accusations of being scumbuddies.

I agree with hitogoroshi that looking for scum pairs is misleading this early in the game. Scum will probably avoid each other this early in the game, so we're much more likely to find someone acting scummy in isolation.

I also agree. It might just be smoke and mirrors at this point. I said something about Dondero's one comment that made me uncomfortable, but Dondero has not said anything since. I look forward to hearing this one explained. Not sure I would point directly to scum since the post was so flagrant (with a little humor) at this point, but we shall see after an explanation.

Annachie

- not enough content in post. Has posted a lot, but not enough substance. Seems to be a ridiculous banter of non-committal jargon with hitogorshi regarding scum pairs.

Pyrogen

- I think I've posted enough of my feelings on Pyro so far. The fact that he has settled down is calming, although the rest of the town seems to have also settled down. However, even with some "coaching," I find it hard to believe that Pyro can't even fabricate some possible scum trying to set him up; considering the circumstances of everyone pointing fingers at him. I would think he could at least point the finger back at one person. I just find this very unnerving:

I suggest clearing that up quickly and effectively and then also turn the finger back on those who are keeping these discussions alive and kicking (other than yourself). If you are protown, then it seems that scum might be trying to add fuel to the fire or are trying to get you to appear more scummy; so with that said, and to generate some more discussion, which of those that keep hammering on you do you feel might be the mafia, and why? (and yes, I know you have done this to a small degree, but not enough for me to start looking elsewhere).

I don't know. Most people seem town enough.

Seriously? Everyone who is out to get you lynched is "town enough?" With that kind of interrogative attitude, I do not feel bad not removing my lynch vote on you.

hitogoroshi

- Of little content, the only thing I can make a judgment on is this comment:

Given that I think that Just Me managed to

out both himself and Dondero

I find it funny that Dondero described him and Just Me as Laurel and Hardy.

See, it's this again. If you think that what transpired clearly "outed" Dondero and Justme as a scumpair, well, uh, you're completely wrong. Please see/respond to my last post.

If it is that obvious what exactly everyone is referring to (or incorrectly referring to) then go ahead and point it out directly to those of us less dense. Telling people to reread a previous post when you could just be more clear would be helpful. Either you are intentionally being vague and don't want your comment scrutinized more, or you are trying to make it more difficult; either of which is anti-town in my eyes.

startransmission

- not enough posting, outside of the partial list analysis, most of which was fairly obvious commentary about Pyrogen. Hope to get the rest of the list soon.

fhqwhgads

- good posting for the most part. Nothing stands out as being anti-town behavior. Feeling town at this point.

To be clear at this point, the scummiest people in my eyes are the erratic backtrackers, complicated story tellers, and the no posters/no content posters. So at this point, I'm quite comfortable keeping my vote on Pyrogen for the reasons outlined above, with a solid FoS on Dondero, Annachie, and hitogoroshi. I'm trying to figure out if we lynch Pyro and he turns up town, who I would gun for next; but I am also waiting for some direction from Pyro on that.

xvart.

[hitogoroshi]

Strangely, Hitogoroshi, neither the post to which you refer nor this most recent one actually address the parts that make me think that the way I do. The parts you refered too just add to my suspicion.

I was referring to this post, your fifth post:

This is my second game. The first game mafia/warewolf game I played is on another site, and in day 4. We managed to get all 3 power roles killed by night 2. (Yes we lynched one with the first vote)

As I said before, we need info, and forcing people to vote gives us that info.

Speaking of which:

Just Me, I'm still suspicious of your concern reguarding voting before the replacement was confirmed. For that matter you never really explained you're concern and then voted despite saying that we should wait a few (real) days yet before voting.
To me it sounds like you're one of the scum and that you knew that the replacement was going to be the other.
Then you voted for the fist person that Dondero (The eventual replacement) pointed a finger at while appearing to be random about it. Trying too hard to appear random in my opinion.

Vote just me

And as you said yourself:

iirc, I laid out my main suspicions in my fifth(?) post and for the moment, still stand by them.

If there's another post that 'address the parts that make you think the way you do', pray tell, where is it?

Given that little else is making me suspicious at the moment I see little reason to change a vote until something more definate happens.

Pressure voting is "There is this comment of yours I don't like, and I'm voting you to add some weight to my demands for explanation." Pressure voting is not "since it's the start of the game I'm going to take a single piece of 'evidence' that is more likely to be a coincidence that anything and use this to declare I've found a scum pair.'

Though perhaps I should wonder at you saying that I'm completely wrong, since only 3 people (Besides Starkmoon herself) would know for certain.

Look at the sentence I posted again.

If you think that what transpired clearly "outed" Dondero and Justme as a scumpair, well, uh, you're completely wrong.

I wasn't saying anything about whether or not Dondero or Justme are scum or not, I'm saying it is far too early and your 'case' as it were is so pathetically weak that you cannot be as certain as you are claiming to be. I continue to hold the position that you are completely wrong to be

making the claims you are making based off of the evidence you have.

. That has nothing to do with whatever alignments Dondero or Justme may hold.

Hitogoroshi, I notice that you have yet to actually cast a vote, random or otherwise.
(The last vote cast by anyone was Wednesday or about 90 hours ago)

I got here quite a bit later than the rest of you, and it seemed to be that the rvs had already ended. As for the 'otherwise', that's more of my meta - I don't pressure vote but scumhunt more conversationally, and only voting for people I'm comfortable lynching. I'm working on being a bit more free with my voting but as it remains that's how I play. I don't think I've cast more than 3 votes on any day in any mafiascum game I've played.

Seriously, though, Annachie. You do not - do not - do not do not do not do not - have any sort of case where you can be comfortable saying:

Given that I think that Just Me

managed to out both himself and Dondero

I find it funny that Dondero described him and Just Me as Laurel and Hardy.

(Once again, emphasis mine)

xvart, if that didn't clarify my position, I'd be happy to go into any parts in more depth.

[just me]

yes, I have something to say. the reason for that, maybe controversial post xvart has just pulled up again is this: I thought that if we voted before everyone was in, it would keep somebody (possibly, though not necessarily a wolf) out of the limelight than what would be good for the 'village' as a whole. and, I thought if we didn't jump into things straight away, we could get some justified opinions and have a slightly higher chance of getting a mafia member.

[Annachie]

No, because the entire bit he's referring to isn't a scumtell! Donderro is saying "You're referring to me FOSing but not voting pyro, and justme voting pyro. That's not any sort of scumtell, thus, we'd have to be a pretty inept scumpair to do that!" The crucial difference is that the initial thing that's being 'attacked' actually has no bearing on alignment. Unless you think the random vote WAS actually a calculated response to Don's FOS, in which case, uh, what? that doesn't make sense.

Is that seriously - SERROUSLY - why you're voting Dondero? Because Justme voted someone that Dondero was skeptical about, ergo, they are both scum? Please tell me there's some other part to this whole mess I'm missing.

As I've said before, and will no doubt say again, it was Just Me's first two posts that made me suspicious. His seemingly excessive concern about Don being late to start (due to being a replacement and all that).
Given my belief then the following statements and voting et al, especially Don's Laurel and Hardy one, also seem suspicious.

One thing I have noticed is to pay atention to the first few posts as players seem to be more inclined to express too much information or too much concern.

Now honestly, if I believe that two people are scum, rightly or wrongly, does it matter which one I vote for or even if I swap between them?
Our goal as villagers is to lynch the scum, I believe that two people are scum so ergo I vote whatever way I need to to get them lynched.

[startransmission]

fgads

- Our illustrious IC. Good posting, I liked his debate with Pyro. His posts have good content, and he asks good questions. Right now I'm leaning town.

DarthRandal

- I agree with his posts beat for beat. For being a first time player I'm impressed with his ability. He seems confident, and like I said I agree with virtually everything he's said. Except for voting me because his D9 told him to. That really steams me up.

Dondero

- Not much to analyze. His play is pretty consistent with a newbie- asks questions, sits back a little. Of course there is the matter of the Laurel and Hardy bit. I'm not as swayed by that as annachie is, but it is definitely WIFOM. This doesn't by any means lead to believe that he is definite scum, but it puts him on my radar. The fact that he's clammed up since it was pointed out doesn't do him any favors.

hitogoroshi

- Pretty quiet early in the game, didn't really get engaged with a debate until the Dondero WIFOM thing came up. I agree with him that annachie is presenting a weak case by calling justme and Dondero scumbuddies, but I don't like how vehemently he is attacking annachies vote against Dondero. While annachie declaring justme and Dondero partners is seriously jumping the gun, I think his vote is appropriate.

just me

- Another newbie, and I see nothing terribly scummy. xvarts comment about just me waiting for a wagon is interesting, especially when he unvoted Pyro when it appeared a wagon wasn't going to form easily.

I know a lot of this stuff is obvious and has already discussed, but I wanted to put down where I'm at. I'm going to try and boil down who my primary suspect is, right now I'm torn between Dondero and Pyro. Both haven't posted since I jumped in, so I'll need to see more before I throw an FoS anywhere.

[DarthRandal1138]

Sorry for my absence over the weekend, folks. I got hit pretty hard by the flu, and my enthusiasm for anything other than lying around and moaning quietly was pretty much nonexistant. :$

I like the analyses from startransmission & xvart. In startransmission's case, I may have to accept the fact that the dice do, occasionally, lie.

@hitogoroshi: I'm willing to agree with you on the point that Annachie's case against a just me/Dondero scumteam is *very* weak, but I still dislike the tone behind Dondero's now-infamous "Laurel & Hardy" comment.
I'm not saying that I find it outright scummy, but it does reek of WIFOM, and I'm hardly the only one to point this out.

@Annachie & just me: Could the two of you upload avatars at your convenience? It would make telling your posts apart *much* easier at a glance.

@Dondero: Alright, it has now been *over 5 days* since your last post (4 if we count the weekend as 1 day). I, and quite a few of the others, would really like to hear from you.
You haven't posted anywhere else on the site, but I'm hoping you haven't just abandoned the game. To give you some motivation to post:

Vote: Dondero

[just me]

my concerns with dondero being late was that if he is a wolf, it would reduce suspicion on him because he couldn't post if he wasn't in the game. I hope that ends this issue

[Pyrogen]

The reason I didn't pick anyone out was because I have several exams and papers due this week, and I didn't feel like accusing anyone without evidence. After my tests I will go reread the thread and see who seems out of place. Of course I have my suspicions, but I won't reveal them yet.

[Pyrogen]

Also, there hasn't been much discussion since my semi-absence.

Y'all need to talk more.

[fhqwhgads]

Annachie

- not enough content in post. Has posted a lot, but not enough substance. Seems to be a ridiculous banter of non-committal jargon with hitogorshi regarding scum pairs.

Yes, I have also noticed this. Annachie has a lot to say about nothing at all.

yes, I have something to say. the reason for that, maybe controversial post xvart has just pulled up again is this: I thought that if we voted before everyone was in, it would keep somebody (possibly, though not necessarily a wolf) out of the limelight than what would be good for the 'village' as a whole. and, I thought if we didn't jump into things straight away, we could get some justified opinions and have a slightly higher chance of getting a mafia member.

Could you indulge me and elaborate on this? How exactly did you see this going down?

Ah, I see you did. So, any new leads/ideas?

The player-analysis posts are good, but it might also be a tactic to divert attention away from the ones posting it. However, it seems to me the posters under the most pressure (Pyro excluded) are posting very little.

Of course I have my suspicions, but I won't reveal them yet.

In short, why would hiding this information be beneficial to town?

[Annachie]

fhqwhgads, perhaps Pyro wants to try and lay traps for people and listing his suspicions might make that more difficult.

Randal, I'll find an avatar and ty and load it. Just for you

Just Me, we probably should have seen that answer a few days ago, but better late than never I suppose.

[fhqwhgads]

fhqwhgads, perhaps Pyro wants to try and lay traps for people and listing his suspicions might make that more difficult.

If that is true, he should have said nothing at all. Making that statement is warning enough for scum to be weary.

Also, let him answer his questions himself

[starkmoon]

just me
DarthRandal1138
Dondero 3 fhqwhgads, Annachie, DarthRandal1138
Annachie
xvart
Pyrogen xvart
hitogoroshi
startransmission
fhqwhgads 1 startransmission

No Lynch


Not Voting

hitogoroshi
Pyrogen
just me
Dondero

[xvart]

xvart, if that didn't clarify my position, I'd be happy to go into any parts in more depth.

Thank you, that helps me follow along a lot.

yes, I have something to say. the reason for that, maybe controversial post xvart has just pulled up again is this: I thought that if we voted before everyone was in, it would keep somebody (possibly, though not necessarily a wolf) out of the limelight than what would be good for the 'village' as a whole. and, I thought if we didn't jump into things straight away, we could get some justified opinions and have a slightly higher chance of getting a mafia member.

If the games started with a night phase I could see your point, since anyone late on the night phase could be mafia or power town role and have a night action. But since there was no night phase to begin with I think it is moot, which I think is what you are saying. Even so, given that a late comer is mafia, we might as well scum hunt the other one in the meantime, right?

The reason I didn't pick anyone out was because I have several exams and papers due this week, and I didn't feel like accusing anyone without evidence. After my tests I will go reread the thread and see who seems out of place. Of course I have my suspicions, but I won't reveal them yet.

Hmmmm... I guess this will have to suffice for now?

xvart.

[startransmission]

Also, there hasn't been much discussion since my semi-absence.

Y'all need to talk more.

Really? What do you make of my and xvarts analysis? You also haven't weighed in on hito and annachie's debate over the WIFOM that Dondero presented. Or the wagon against Dondero because of it.

And the "but I won't reveal them yet" is a cop out. Is this for the sake of conversation, yet again?

[Annachie]

Randal, I'll find an avatar and ty and load it. Just for you

Behold, the dread pirate Bobbi-Blu (In my avatar for the in-observant lol )

[fhqwhgads]

We really need to hear from Dondero.

And I still would like to hear Pyrogen's 'hidden' suspicions.

[Annachie]

Wow, this game moves fast!

Wow, it's been over a week since Dondero's last post