Mini 862 ~ Mafia of Order (Game Over!)

[DTMaster]

Vote: Locke Lamora

My, I have to Agree with VP Balthar here considering the post cap. This reminds me of writing a paper:

"Be concise but full of content."

Also to fuzzy and Sotty7: I think it would be pointless to post count claim, when it's obvious when someone runs out of posts. Unless someone can determine how someone is scummy based on their cap limit, the posts them selves will show us the way.

[DTMaster]

@A Cold Starry Night
My, I see Cobalt's 22 and second this.

@Cobalt
1. I don't think claiming post counts still contributes to finding scum but I'll give you mine anyways. It's a tiny 65 total post count so I'm going to be very selective. (But not as little as the cold starry night D:)

2. Plus fake claiming a smaller number makes no sense... or fake claiming a large number. It becomes obvious with the mechanics of this when a person runs out and/or if a person chooses to lie. If he breaks his self inflicted post count reduction then he just brought attention to himself :<.

3. Wait.. wut? Town fake claim? o-o. I only encountered scum fake claim powers when I was reading Tar's games.

IGMYEOY: Cobalt

@Kmd
Ah, well you see there is this principle of action and reaction. Recall my saying about the essay: you have to be concise. Day 1 early game bandwagon creates a start towards action and reaction to judge a person to see if they are scummy or not. With the whole post count restriction, a start in discussion in any form helps.

So you vote VP and then call fuzzy scummy? Lol wut? Some explanations on this conclusion. Vote at the bottom of the page

@Goat
I don't see the advantage for fake claiming your post count number. I see lots of disadvantages... but I guess that is WIFOM territory and we'll leave it over there.

Also interesting information. It is marked with a big fat note for me and it provides a call for:

1. Flavor research. (I played the games so yay. :3 Hard mode FTL and the Dawn Brigade FTLx2)
2. Like you said behavioral analysis: aka old fashioned scum hunting.

Unvote

Vote: KmD

[DTMaster]

@KMD

Multipressuring people isn't scummy and is active scum hunting. Saying someone you think is scummy without follow up from the initial statement: "fuzzy is scummy" reads as: planting seeds of deception. With the whole post count limit I expected you to include a follow up scum hunting statement towards fuzzy when you responded to me. You didn't, why?

@Goat
In a sense, when Colbalt admitted he had a fake claim, it reads as: either extreme scum gambit or gambling pro-town. It makes his future claim(s) (if we get there) really come under attack by town because we would need to sift through the fake stuff to see if we have scum-Colbalt. Alerting us to this fact really negates the confusion and potential fake-claims have for scum-Colbalt.

A little WIFOM here but it does warrant keeping an eye on him.

@Colbalt
Your voting reminds me of BM almost. I assume you have something on Jus here or trying to get activity. Am I right here?

[DTMaster]

@Town
If Colbalt's claim is true then

do not vote him

. Flavour wise: Miciah is the priestess of Yune.

Also her having fake claims make sense since she has various titles throughout the game and has diffrent personas/represent diffrent in game factions but ultimately is a part of the main cast. (I hate using her since she's so meh compared to the other mages but her personal tomes makes up for it. Plus the Brigade fails with low levels when Ike's party has good growths like them :<)Your A-Ability (which I want to assume is called Sacrafice) mirrors what Miciah can do in game. Flavour text fits.

@Sens
While yes in normal mafia: flavour has nothing to do with the game, in theme it works as a base to help sift through targets. The only issue comes with fake-claims and if scum has it. Which of course comes with the issue of Colbalt. Flavour wise I can reason everything he is from the character he says he is.

Also what about survivor. In this case it would be best to ignore the 3rd party completely since a survivor lynch is wasted.

@Goat
66: If there are 3rd parties it should be read: all anti-town factions.

@KMD
Why aren't you questioning then? Follow up work involves pressing, and questioning is one of them.

Also

Unvote

Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro

I want to hear more from you since you only posted twice with little content. Your scum list please, and other relavent thoughts with the current relevations.

[DTMaster]

Sorry behind on my posting:

@Sens
89: Scum-survivor? What the? That would be extremely bastardy if Vi put that in this game.

94: Can you meta link the Harry Potter game in question? I'm interested since that concept is very dastardly. But I'm seeing your point, especially when flavor interpretation is subjective.

@Locke
Well I could rehash the flavor argument but there hasn't been a flavour counter claim. Plus we can test out Colbalt's claim (at least partially) with his active ability. I suggest we do the following:

Since he has the ability to give the town posts by sacrificing his own posts, he can give out posts to everyone in the town. This way we can semi-confirm his ability. Plus if Colbalt is able to spread his post count around then it would be beneficial to the town if he gives the right people the additional talking power.

So to me this makes Colbalt neutral leaning town for now. Why waste time speculating on his claim when we can test it.

@Juls
The way I word my posts means nothing to: DTM is scummy argument. Its equivalent to saying I think you are scummy because you didn't write out my full name in your attack on me. You should obviously attack me by what I say not how I say it. I want to address this with my first game on the newbie thread (see my wiki) where I was attacked for being active to the town.

The person who attacked me for being active to the town, rather then the content of my posts was scum grasping for straws in his argument. Yes the meta call is on a different person but your post reads as the same way.

@Colbalt
How would Miciah pretend to be Leonardo :S /scratches head at that topic.

BTW: I just wanted to clarify can you multi target your sacrifice or just do it to 1 person. (I'm thinking the latter given the nature of Sacrifice) If it's the former my idea to confirm your abilities can be tested if you give everyone in the town 1 additional post.

@ACSN
Would you still go for a Cobalt lynch after my role testing idea?

[DTMaster]

@Cobalt
1. Aw... oh well you can still confirm yourself by giving posts. But you are burning through them really fast, which I notice would defeat the purpose of your A-Ability.

2. You used your fake claim to get mafia flavour? :S That's a really unorthodox way to use it, but clever. But I don't see how that changes anything about the mafia win condition. They still want to control town, whether or not 3rd parties are hinted in their win con seems irrelevant.

@KMD
He ability claimed and you don't want to test this? Cobalt soft claimed almost full claimed PR as Miciah with fake claims and the power to give out posts to people. The ability to give the town posts work both as a way to confirm his alignment and give the correct people more discussion power. The town needs all the posts it can get. If Colbalt's claim is true then he's prime target for scum NK to stop him from sacrificing his posts to another townie.

Since you posted after my intial outline of PR confirmation, it is disturbing to me that you want to lynch him before testing.

FoS:KMD

[DTMaster]

@DDD/KMD/Goat

To me discussion is invaluable, and Colbalt's post transfering allows protown players to discuss more. Discussion is one of the key weapons for the town. To me you three read as people trying to stop him before we can verify bits of Colbalt's claim.

It's like lynching an uncounter claimed PR, all PR roles should be tested from day 2 onwards.

While this is a theme game: I want to give you this meta game known as Foggy Londontown where town lynched the unCCed doctor and lost both hider and lovers over 1 day. I'd prefer to not repeat that mistake again and leave all PR claims for day 2 onwards to test.

I acknowledge that it doesn't necessarily mean Colbalt is clear, but it makes his claim more valid. In terms of flavour, the only person who can sacrafice in the game is Miciach. If he is lying then he wouldn't be able to use such an ability (ie if this is his real fake claim). If the target he gave his posts to die tomorrow then we can carry the case again since it reads as: fake claim with opprotunistic target.

In any case day 2 is the best way to deal with unCCed PRs and I would apply this to Colbalt. Do you three not agree?

Plus if this is scum-Cobalt giving away free posts to people, we would just do a voting analysis on him when he runs out. it would become evident in his votes to reveal his scumminess.

@Juls
No comments to my post on you? If you can point out how I am just agreeing and disagreeing by playing safe then make this case. As far as I know I've taken the extreme in the Colbalt lynch/vs no lynch debate and say: I dislike a Colbalt lynch today, and we can reevaulate tomorrow.

Preferably if you want to point fingers do so at KMD. If anything he has done the same thing with less analysis. I smell tunneling here.

@ACSN
Scumlist and your thoughts on my plan.

Unvote

Vote A Cold Stary Night

[DTMaster]

@Town

I be back now. I was V/LA. Vi and sabre can confirm this. (I think saber can :S) So here are my thoughts:

@Juls

151: Yes like I said in my responce: You don't show how I'm "just agreeing" and going with the flow. In your 132 you say this but I just pointed out how I'm taking definate sides here. Plus I'm also attempting to structure a way to test Colbalt's claim to see if we can determine if he is town/scum. I don't see how the latter makes me passive "where I'm just being active."

Post Number Analysis Please.

@KMD
138: i was addressing Juls. Why did you just answer for Juls?

@DDD
149: Ah sorry I read that you didn't like the role claim idea which made me assume you were on the Cobalt lynch wagon. I did a quick reread and confirmed your statement.

To me scum-post giver makes little sense if we role confirm Cobalt. If it does turn out to be true, voting analysis will be done on Cobalt to determine is alignment.

204: You do realize you are applying a formula derived from newbie games to a normal games. Just as a warning: 3rd party variables and more advanced mafia concepts make trend analysis tougher.

@Cobalt
154: That was such a bad post. I have to agree with Sens for this: It's to WIFOMic and acts like a threat to the town. If you are flipped don't mention threats like this. It discredits your case on the bangwagoners from this post alone.

Personally I'd rather take the time to role confirm you and work from there.

@Sabre
Yoooh! You are clearing up my main issue on ACSN with his lack of posts/idiotic posts. But you still carry some of the issues your predecessor created over you,

IGMEOY: Sabrewolf

. Replacement halos shouldn't be auto clearing.

@KMD/DDD about Sabre
Wut? Content < ACSN 1 liners? Explain.

@Fuzzy
Hold on: PRs are independent of alignment? That means its all back to old fashioned scum hunting "shudders at the thought of scum-docs and cops running around or even... scum watcher" Internal Mafia that I played in explains why.

Also my Cobalt plan is in the water now ":<.

@Town
Preferably I rather get a vote count to better assess the situation. I can't remember but I've seen a game where scum lead town to mislynches and almost won at the end of the game using a point system scale (of scumineess from 1 - 10). Can't remember the game name but this is ringing some bells.

[DTMaster]

Addition:

@Sens
Can you metalink that HP game? Intrested in your theory with Fuzzy's Yune's msg.

@DDD
Just noticed. Cleared VP because he didn't go for an easy bandwagon on ACSN/Sabre. But wouldn't that mean you are attacking the easy bandwagon?

Trend analysis or not I don't see much from ACSN/Sabre from ISO. The only votes Sabre had was Sens and you. :S

[DTMaster]

@Vi
Tanith was ok for a pegasus knight. I found the game's pegasus knights to be meh in comparison to FE7. I ended up using Nepheene for my lance user. I guess her average power makes her have a smaller fanbase? At least in comparison to Ike and Soren and such..

1) Reinforce. I don't care if it's practically useless (and only in FE9), it's still cool.
2) Personality.
As a unit, yes, she was kind of unfortunate.
Florina still beats everyone.

Hm? @Sabre/Sotty you were given extra posts?

I was given extra posts last night I went from 65 - 72. I thought Cobalt said he couldn't multi-target. I was waiting for him to claim his target to confirm Cobalt's A ability since I thought he targeted me. :S.

Since I didn't post this before night ended:

@Sabre
I can flavor confirm your role since Laura was one of the few useful brigade members on the team. But if we refer back to fuzzy's Yune's message

Voice of Yune told me that PRs are independent of alignment

It's scum hunting 101 again.

That said I want some answers. Starting with:

@KMD
Why did you unvote to sabre then changed back if your gut pointed to DDD. It reads as opportunistic vote hopping to force a wagon through day 1. Also do you maintain by your gut reasoning for your scum list?

@Sens
Why did you unvote and revote sabre 20 minutes after your 1 line unvote/vote on sabre. If I do an ISO read on you I see the same post happening twice. It makes no sense.

[DTMaster]

@Town
Sorry I caught the flu the past few days which also induced a migraine so I couldn't post.

@Cobalt/VP
I find it odd that when VP said he gained 2 posts you said you tried to target VP for two posts but got blocked. Then VP corrected himself to 7 posts. It smells like something too convenient to me.

@Sabre
273: :S. Would post number be a strong indication of scumminess? Personally I find that a weak argument and would rather focus on scum hunting in general. Content over amount.

FoS:Sabre

since I find that to be poor reasoning in general.

@People who are voting for Locke
I did a post search and his last post was in this game on the 21st for this site. I would say his "lurking" = scummy argument would hold more water if he posted in other games. Therefore I'm more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, or it's time to get a replacement.

@KMD
Yoh, you voted and you didn't answer my question? Have some motivation

Vote: KMD

[DTMaster]

Whoops. Too many tabs = Posted in the wrong thread. x.x

@Sotty
I do have to say though, the math failure explanation is plausible. I can confirm that I got the same setup as VP's message. I can't put my finger on it but something is giving me odd vibes here. It's note worthy as of now since to me the whole number 2 situation just stands out.

@KMD

Why did you unvote to sabre then changed back if your gut pointed to DDD. It reads as opportunistic vote hopping to force a wagon through day 1. Also do you maintain by your gut reasoning for your scum list?

I also assume you agree with Sens then, despite the whole discussion that is taking place. Do you agree/disagree with the RB situation?

EDIT: You answered the question in your response to LL. :S

@LL
Tunneling, borderline confirmation bias? Reminds me of Foggy Londontown Mafia (check my wiki) were scum tricked the town to do this.

[DTMaster]

@VP

a. What? You a misrepresenting me. My first post was in response to your first post. Let's read this again.

Let's get a serious wagon going as soon as possible to ensure that we don't waste any posts. My guess is that the scum in this game are going to be interested in pulling people into arguments that require a lot of posting, especially if anyone becomes a major threat to them.

My,

I have to Agree with VP Balthar here considering the post cap. This reminds me of writing a paper:

"Be concise but full of content."

Also to fuzzy and Sotty7: I think it would be pointless to post count claim, when it's obvious when someone runs out of posts. Unless someone can determine how someone is scummy based on their cap limit, the posts them selves will show us the way.

Cobalt says

wrong, it's probably possible to fake having run out of posts and use that as an excuse to not post content. so I want everyone's numbers out early, so we know if someone tries to fake running out. it also might be important information later- if so the earlier we get it out the less time scum have to fake it

My second post said: "I don't see how it will help us find scum but I will post the post count." in response.

The issue of posts/post counts become a pointless tool to use in scum hunting since numbers <<<<< content in terms of scum reasoning. I also was refrencing to the fact that we should get right into discussion due to the BAM rule set unless you take on the BattleMageism way to scum hunting.

b. Behavioural analysis?

Explain my following arguments in my ISO posts:

ISO 2 towards KMD's lack of scumhunting, toward's Goat's response on Cobalt's claiming he has a fake claim. The art of fake claiming from a scum perspective is wifomy filled, etc..

ISO 4: Insitgate a test to try and role confirm Cobalt. I also defended a Juls attack where wording = scummy some how. :S

ISO 7: I got back From VLA and went on a sabre KMD attack.

11/10: Are issues with the gut call from KMD and his lack of follow through work.

Yes I'm tunnelling on KMD but I find some of his actions very questionable in a regular scum hunting sense.

I'm not using flavour to attack KMD, I'm asking his position on cobalt based on the whole RB issue.

c. The quote said: I find something odd. My inner head went: Did Cobalt just fake claimed he gave Balther 2 posts and then got RBed just because VP said he got a diffrent number? Is it a Cobalt/VP team? I just can't put a finger on it.

For all I know the whole numbering issue is just a cocincidence since your addition error and miscounting is plausable.

[DTMaster]

After that nonsense blah.

@KMD
Wut so did you just admit to going for the guy who was an easier lynch?

I switched to Saber thinking he had more votes.

After seeing a vote count, DDD was the more likely lynch

and my preference (second to Cobalt of course) anyway, so I went back to DDD. And yeah, my gut said he was scum.

I would like to see either these things:

a. Meta links to your games.
or
b. More reasoning here. I'm getting a BattleMage headache from these gut calls.

@Cobalt
Wut. I'm assuming that you agree with VP's case even after you partially defended me? Or are you just sticking with a wagon here.

@Fuzzy/LL/Sabre
Hellloooo over there contributations?

[DTMaster]

@Sotty
26: I had two reasons but 1 vote. Does voting and questioning somehow make it not as effective to scum hunt the same issue? Recalled I said: I never saw a town-fake claim before, while reading Tar's game. That doesn't mean it might exist and waited for a response.

88/136: Um so my issue with 1 liner/lack of explainations is somehow a weaker argument to lurking? Lurking is anti-town yes, both I've seen both town and scum do it. I moved on when ACSN was posting his 1 liner blurbs which made no sense analytically. Am I supposed to just lurker hunt? No i'm supposed to vote who I find is scummy at the time. I voted ACSN since I found him > then DDD in terms of scuminess.

My gut was right when DDD flipped town.

Lastly, I didn't need to comment much since I had nothing to comment on? I donno I don't have the time to post as often. You can see that with my posting style. If I missed something that you wanted me to address point it out.

(Aside: >>;; at the auto correct...... )

@Cobalt
I guess. A 1 liner statement doesnt =/= much defense. I concede to your point but you didn't answer any of the above questions in that post. Why?

[DTMaster]

@VP

b. Um. I am? I've been questioning people about their scum hunting methods? Me attacking people and asking questions?

I can conceded flavourwise for Cobalt I used it for his defence but that was pre-Fuzzy note. But for Sabre I just interjected a detail saying his claim makes sense for this game. Originally I had bread crumbed my name on day one but after that note I gave up because flavour wise it does not prove innocence according to Fuzzy's note.

Since it's two days before the deadline I'm claiming Mia the Townie Duelist (Just Townie). This is probably what Juls meant when he said he saw weird syntax:

My, I have to Agree

with VP Balthar here considering the post cap. This reminds me of writing a paper

Post 1: First letter addressed to ACN, Cobalt and KMD spells Mia.
Post 2: Same thing

Originally I was planning to bread crumb my name to show that I'm Mia but it's now evident that that's pointless.

c. This is called dumb theory which is why I didn't mentioned it. I have a tendency to do this stuff. Read my first newbie game, I thought two people were scum buddies because they were RVSing voting each other at the start of the day.

@Vote Issue
I was gone? I'm sorry but when you get sick and can't post for a couple of days, you leave a lot of games hanging. Your votes stick when you are V/LA. Please note this if you didn't plan on getting sick

@Last comments
1. When I'm defending myself, I'm complaining? How is that a fair argument? It's not since It's just mudslinging. You just painted me in a poor image that when I defend myself against just creates a endless loop that equates defense into complaining.

2. I attacked him for vote hopping in the late bandwagon. His gut said DDD was scum. Now I think I found him admitting he was jumping on the easy wagon = me misreping him?

If KMD is town explain this to me and how that wasn't an admission to go for the easy wagons.

3. I conceded that the statement was a null? >>;; Do you read any more?

4. I deflect towards lurkers how? Its 2 days towards deadline I just asked them to contribute to something. Deflection would mean I attacked them for lurking and voted them to deflect the attention off me. In fact I defended LL since he didn't post when the bandwagon was on him. I did a post search, he didn't post prior to this game. Explain now.

[DTMaster]

@Sotty

After the "wut reaction", I let Cobalt explain himself. Scum claiming fake claim ability makes no sense when I thought it through. The shock value is subjective to the person, I think with reasoning the only conclusion is that there is no sense in claiming fake claim abilities when it defeats the purpose of the fake claim. It's very circular logic to work around.

@VP
Forgot to talk about the last bit. Anyways, I changed my vote from DDD to ACSN right? I said before, I found ACSN scummier then DDD at the time. That's about it.

[DTMaster]

Sorry school + work + stress = mafia on the back burner.

@KMD
:S I'm just mighty confused to why your posts got deleted. According to Vi's post count they still count towards post usage so the only other alternative that makes sense is that you struck a nerve with someone.

Again: my questions and requests:

1. Meta links to your games preferably 1 scum and 1 townie. Preferably the game where you pointed out scum with your gut.

2. I originally quoted you but I guess there is nothing to double check back: You said that DDD appeared scummy at the time of the day one wagon. But you also said you voted DDD out of admission that he was the more likely lynch. Why?

3. You're planning a VC analysis after your original gut call on DDD and Cobalt? Why didn't you do any other analysis before when I attacked you on your gut calls?

@VP
Any comments on the previous day? I feel like something is left hanging there.

@Goat
I don't know what to say to that theory since the only defense against it is the "I might have been framed" defense followed by WIFOM defenses. There isn't a way to disprove this unless LL investigated me and got a different role on me then what I claimed.

@LL
I agree with the delay, but given any claims so far if you have something contradictory that links them to being obv scum now would be the time to point it out in my opinion. I leave the choice up to you though.

@Sabre
Anything to actually weigh in? Given that you were given 7 posts I expected you to post more then a line in said first post of the day since you were worried about using too many posts.

@Town
My post count did raise again from 72 to 79 (I gained 7 posts). Given that Fuzzy claimed to give the global post count that is an ability confirmation (and you can add Heron flavour songs here). Personally I dislike a fuzzy and LL lynch unless new evidence surfaces up. The only one I really like is KMD at the moment and Sens for his tunnel play. Sabre I just go :S right now.

[DTMaster]

@LL

I said

if you find obv scum then tell us.

I don't find anything wrong here since you claimed flavour cop. If someone false claims and you catch them, then they are scum. Again I leave the choice up to you since this is just like an investigation. It shouldn't matter if someone fake claims or not in a MC or later since you can confirm the truth. In fact if someone fake claims here and you catch them then bonus points for the town!

Explain the error in my thinking if it's that bad since I don't see it.

@KMD
1. I'll be waiting. Sens' HP mafia link was informative and was unexpected :S.

2. I'm reading: day 1 bandwagon argument almost + lynching scummy character arguments. But I still dislike the bandwagon issue here, especially with the vote hop.

Plus you switched between the sabre wagon and DDD wagon. I mentioned this in my ISO 9. The cobalt wagon was there in day 1 (and went to lynch day 2) but it was a non issue at the end of day 1. So to me the sabre/DDD vote hope reads as opportunistic rather then lynching potential bandwagons. I want to confirm this with your posts but.... bleah. I'll look at this from another angle to see if it's conformable.

3. Yes a VC analysis is best done on the later days when we actually had data. But what about post analysis or something like that? (I hate the dumb post deletion. Makes analysis that much harder)

@VP
I'll await your responses then.

@Fuzzy
A good wiki research makes you an instant expert. I just happened to play Path of Radiance (which is partially why I chose to join this game). If you think of this: anyone who doesn't fit in the flavour of the game would be scum (elaborate fake claim = scummy argument). Read Pokemon Madness run by Grimmy in my wiki. Team Rocket Pokemon were the mafia, and we had a Digimon sk. I might be biased based on flavour analysis from that game though.

@Sabre
My Yune's message is obvious and conformable: the modkill from under activity (for some reason my PM says over activity but I think that's a typo) so we should post ~ once a day. Not really helpful. :S

Also Fuzzy claimed Rafiel (the heron character blah) and is the person giving the town posts. It kind of makes no sense to claim this (or fake claim this role) when we have ability confirmation in thread and then throw his Yune's message out there from a scum POV. It's too counter productive here.

[DTMaster]

Sorry I'm posting to say I'm suffering from midterm hell atm and will be back Friday for the long weekend. Comments and such will be given then.

As an aside you know my claim but I'll restate it: Mia Town Duelist.

[DTMaster]

Oh crappy i just read the deadline is Thursday. I'm posting on my homework break time so be happy.

Quick comments then:

LL: I don't understand what is odd about me saying: claim if you have a guilty if you already found one (ie you found someone false claimed). It's equivilent to saying to the cop: claim if you have a guilty. Unless there are sanities involved with your role or something along the lines

If someone false claimed after you role investigated someone and then you investigated said person, would that be more benifical in catching scum? You just caught someone red handed in lying

VP: Comments about the last day? I'm waiting still. You can lead by example and start from there rather then spending posts complaining about the lack of posts.

Also since you basically asked the town for the reads on me and KMD, what are your reads on us as of now? Changed? Unchanged?

[DTMaster]

KMD: I don't disagree with vote analysis, I do however disagree with gut calls being your focus on day 1. Your example showed the falicy caused by VC and also your expressed that you reevaulated the too townie argument to catch scum after your VC failed. This means a combintation of all types of analysis is needed. But this is off topic now.

Your case is... abit too heavy in confirmation bias. Read Londontown Mafia (which the wolves did a good job and the town uterlly destroyed themselves, in my wiki) where confirmation bias actually killed the town.

Also explain to me how the lone vote is scummy? I can understand if X person flipped scum then the lone vote on the wagon would implicate the person. But Cobalt flipped town on day 2 after I agreed with him flavour wise. :S

Also your linkage case on me is: I would focus on sabre to attack at the end of day 1. Note though that you were also one of my main suspects at the end of the first day. Why did you ignore this fact when I attacked both you and sabre?


Sabre:
Also the modkill issue acts either as a lynch if Sens flips townie or a day restart if he flips scum (tradtionally). It wouldn't matter if you voted Sens or not because everything would be reset at the end of the day. Unless BaM has a diffrent modkill mechanic, why are you worried about votes in a modkill scenerio? It makes no sense.

Are you only exclusive to asking questions? :S. I'm slightly guilty about this as well, but I try to comment and activly question with my posts.

I don't see why you didn't make an effort, which reads as odd in my town metas on you. (Town read Day/Night Mafia and Jungle Republic since both of us are dead in the latter. Find it in the wiki. Sabre was more daring as town in the latter)

Town: I don't know what an adjunct is but I can say all role names are part of FE9. Zihark fits flavourwise, Shinon's ambigious claim is blah which makes be question the validity of it and Ranulf's claim might be legit if I find out what adjunct means.

Now LAB TIME!

[DTMaster]

Sorry guys. Took a break from the computer and etc.

@Town
If you were wondering where I was on Thursday I said I had to be back on Friday due to midterm hell, but I posted on Wednesday noting the deadline. My Japanese midterm went well <3.

K! On to the game related material:

My post count increased to 86 from 79. That's 7 more posts. I'm seeing a pattern here.

@LL
When you are back can you answer my question about revealing your results pre-claim. I said: If you caught scum already/or a fake claim reveal. You attacked me for this. Why? If someone fake claims in mass claim after you reveal and you investigate them, you caught scum? Why is the latter bad?

@Fuzzy/VP
Janaff is as important as Shinon, Mia, Tanith... etc. If someone claimed Ike now that is an important character role. Flavour wise Janaff is the right hand man with to Ulll/Ulki (can't remember his name).

@KMD
I expected Shinion: Town Sniper. I smell fake claim.

1. In the example you gave us, you showed us that when you used VC analysis initially you were killing VTs. Then you had to adjust your case with the too townie argument to actually find scum. Aka. More other forms of analysis + VC = strong argument. This is off topic now. The fallacy comes from tunnel warfare here.

[DTMaster]

@VP
1. I dislike your day 4 comments. Appeal to scum to keep you alive? That's just drenched in WIFOM here.

2. I agree with you based on flavour. Shinon should be like: Town Sniper or something like that. Cap-immune I don't get how it fits with him both character wise and ability wise based on the games. The only thing that makes kind of sense is that he's a ladys man in the games.

@Sabre
1. Lurkerish from school = legitimate reasons to be less active from my other games. Take a look at Zachtown in my wiki, I was so behind from school I had giant pauses between my posts. At least I'm playing to the best of my ability.

2. Shouldn't the statement be: Are there any counter claims right now?

[DTMaster]

@KMD

1. I read some of Vi's other games so I see why you don't want to outguess the mod. Plus Cobalt's flip means he gave town fake claiming powers, something that I only exclusively saw for 3rd parties and scum.

2. I expected Town Sniper (Townie/PR because Shinon is an archer. He's not some civilian in the game.

3. Yes. You reevulated your town reads and caught scum that way. Aka they were townie in your books. The scum players were townie. There fore your town reads were too townie and are actually scum. Unless I'm reading that argument wrongly it appears that way to me.

@LL
1. I still don't get the point. If scum fake claims, you are supposed to catch them on this. You are supposed to verify their roles/flavours. Before or after the fact, it doesn't matter. In fact if your role mechanics are correct scum cannot fake claim at all if you investigate them (same conclusion as you).

In hypo if you claimed your investigation early and scum knew the format. Then they fake claimed their role (ie instead of Mafia XXX say they are Town YYY) you investigate if the person was YYY. You should get XXX as a result. Why are you so worried about fake claims here? From my understanding your role counters all fake claims created.

Therefore it shouldn't matter if scum fake claims because you would catch him

2. Yes the point was: if you already caught scum then reveal it. I don't see the point of MCing if your result could lead towards a scum lynch. In fact if you revealed a guilty pre-MC and caught scum, we wouldn't be in potential lylo right now and we would have kept 2 PR claims underwrapped. You also full ability claimed before the MC so town-you was already be out and about.

So your question on why you shouldn't have claimed a guilty result pre-mass claim is obvious: why bother with a MC if you caught scum. We could lynch the person.

3. What was your N1 result and and why didn't you say it in the full claim?

@VP
1. Flavourwise I don't know what COAT stands for. LL's background story fits but a name would help me piece it together. I played Radiant Dawn and unless it didn't show up there, I can't help. :< (aka I didn't play the first one)

2. Uh unless Cobalt is an anti-miller then I don't see why he would lie about his blockage. We also know that Fuzzy's claim is ability verified too. KMD's claim gives me the heebies and I'm waiting for an LL analysis before I make my decision.

[DTMaster]

@VP
1. Ah thanks. I forgot about that with LL's first soft claim. Also I realized LL did claim his name. I'm getting all the claims mixed up here. I'm making a claim chart to sort things out.

2. The block issue is: I have no idea. You can role speculate and go: 1-shot RB like how LL claimed 1-shot insight abilities. You can also accuse him as scum. Either way it's too Wifomy for my tastes.

3. Oh sorry I missed some questions. I think you missed this too. Anyways: Yes my main issue was the end of the day play. Largely your posts were doing the most legwork. I sympathize because I was in a position with Sabre being in the same boat (ie but slightly reversed since he's usually the first lynch).

My thoughts on LL, I still don't get his full reasoning. Especially since he's stressing the whole guilty clause thing. It's an uninformative thought but to me: his mass claim thing reads as role fishing en masse. It's the first thought that came to mind.

The issue isn't about fake claims with a role like that. The issue is comes from real claims which he stated already.

4. I asked about the comments about the exchange we had when we had the DTM wagon. I'm still waiting on it.

@Claims
VP -> Zihark, Town Vig, Townie.
LL -> Janaff, Right hand Man to Tibiran. COAT
DTM -> Mia, Town Duelist, Townie
Sabre -> Laura, Town Cleric, Townie
Fuzzy -> Rafiel, Townie Blessing, Gives posts.
Goat -> I don't know but I can't find it.
KMD -> Shinion, Town Individual, Cap Immune

@Fuzzy
Are you back from work yet? This was your last post here. But Aside from your modding duties a post search showed you were posting in another game. It's a bit weak to say this is active lurking because there are still gaps in between games and you mainly posted within a day of each game before a 2 day/3day gap

@Sabre
I commented on your post on the whole mass claim again. I said: shouldn't the question be if we have counter claims please claim now? Do you have anything to say?

[DTMaster]

@LL
I'm asking Fuzzy to comment? I donno I did an iso skim on Fuzzy just now and the only thing that stood out for me are

1. Lurking which a quick post search shows he didn't post anywhere after his last post yesterday. The same thing can be applied to Goat here too. To me lurking lynching = iffy because I've experienced both scum and town flips on that.

2. I'm asking him to comment more. Not like I can comment when he hasn't posted all of today. Although there is laziness on my part due to the lack of time I have to do substantial rereads.

VP pointed out his Voting analysis points to Fuzzy which I decided to do an ISO skim.

3. I noticed that a lot of fuzzy's posts were on the main bandwagons. In the last day it was really apparent with the little content he was posting.

Theory: Scum-PR coasting on his claim to the end game?

@KMD
I guess. I rather discuss more in the end game since this theory talk is wayy off topic.

[DTMaster]

@KMD
The point I was trying to get across is: we should rely on more forms of analysis rather then just VC. I see it as a viable tactic, but that's the point. The whole "too townie argument" is you used more reasoning based on your VC analysis to find scum in those meta games.

@LL
Normally in a case of both Fuzzy or Goat I would request for a prod/replacement since they've been gone for so long and both their last posts were in this game.

Had either player been posting in other games then I would have more suspect reasons to go: "they are actively lurking lurking in this game"

Actually

can we prod them Vi?

Since this BaM we can't replace them. Also clarification of the modkill:

if we lynch before the deadline day and people do not post at all during the week, are they mod killed for not posting for a full deadline day?

1) Yes.
2) No.
3) ~Vi

[DTMaster]

@VP/LL
Personally I don't see how lynching early prevents a mod kill due to inactivity because if they are still inactive they are inactive.

@Back to LL
I would normally support my lurker hunting with a pressure vote, but we are in potential lylo. In terms of case wise the only two things that is noticeably scummy about fuzzy have been said:

1. VC analysis revealed he bandwagoned. You can support this with his 20 posts. Key issues arise from:

a. His vote on DDD seems out of place. Fuzzy maintained a scum-sabre stance from ISO 5-7. Then iso 8-10 shows a quick transition to DDD even though sabre was the other leading wagon.

Especially this contradiction:

However, I don't really see all that much scumminess coming from DDD right now, and I will not vote just to get a claim out of him. Personally, I like my vote where it is right now, or I could go with a Saber lynch because upon a re-read, I don't really think that slot has done much of anything, and he just jumped on a bandwagon out of process of elimination and didn't really give anything as to why he was voting for DDD other than, he is the only person left.

b. his vote on Cobalt and Sens with a small amount of activity. "in and out" you can say.

But all of the above have been implied under the VC analysis so I'm basically repeating the argument. A quick ISO skim really revealed this. The scum hunting part was done by VP at this point.

The other issue is his lurking and his PR claim.

2. His lurking is null due to repeated reasons that have been said and repeated for LL, Goat and Fuzzy.

3. His PR claim is ability verified. He also posted his Yune's voice which I addressed to sabre about: PRs being independent of alignment. You can argue that its a giant dose of wifom and plants seeds of distrust in the PRs, but reading it makes sound too counter productive as scum in my opinion. Argh.. just thinking about the whole message is looping my head around.

[DTMaster]

I stand corrected then. Town deadline is friday.

[DTMaster]

@LL
1. Ideally I would like to hear from Fuzzy before our friday deadline hits. It just seems empty after going on a fuzzy attack to not hear any form of defence in his case. Gut gives me bad vibes for some reason. I trust my gut.

Read Battlemage Mafia where I called out on Tubby216 being town and maintained a gut town read. Though it got really hard to maintain it after he soft claimed scum as town neighbor. x.x

2. If fuzzy turns out town, that means his Yune's voice is true. That also concludes your analysis that scum claimed their real roles rather then a fake one. It reminds me of Scrubs mafia in a way, where JD and Turk turned out to be mafia actually. Also Sens' game with HP, Hermione and Ron. (Both were pretty informative skims)

3. If fuzzy doesn't respond tomorrow I'll hammer/L-1 vote him per requested by the town date for Friday.

4. To answer your question I cannot defend fuzzy with what I read and I just see VP's case being valid. Aka. What Fuzzy did post is scummy and a VC analysis showed that. I'll do what I stated by 3 tomorrow, to allow him time to post.

@KMD
In a worst case scenerio that Fuzzy doesn't respond and is town, unless town absolutely caught scum its instant win for scum if town goes on another bandwagon? Ew. That's just gross. It forces you to lynch fuzzy/nolynch if he's still inactive past Saturday. >>;;

@Sabre
How's your reread so far? You do know you can post up to 450 words...

[DTMaster]

Lol... yay <3. Though i didn't do anything spectacular except cause lots of confusion. I have no objections to posting the QT for everyone. The Senskill was a giant red herring. Other then that our discussion wasn't that spectacular. We only got a chance to talk once or twice per day :S.

@Town
Actually the very first thing that was posted by Vi was a hint that we shouldn't do flavour analysis. The quote was actually an enemy using a berserk staff on the team (which I HATE SO MUCH, next to sleep). I could have said something right off the bat but withheld it.

@VP
I wanted you guys to push for an LL lynch. Little did I know he was the traitor. D:.

[DTMaster]

Er fail tags for me.. :<

Fixed. ~Vi

[DTMaster]

... I had good reason to ignore it... in hindsight LOL.

[DTMaster]

Personally I expected you guys to go for an LL lynch. Since the scum team didn't know he was the traitor, we thought he was town. Getting town to lynch their flavour cop would have been gold :p.

I guess for some reason town apathy/lurking swung to Sens and we almost lynched him. :S

[DTMaster]

Tbh in terms of 3rd party, I wasn't too worried. I thought it was a survivor since we didn't have double kills and noone turned up cults. :S. A survivor hunt wouldn't be beneficial in any run.

[DTMaster]

If I can Astra someone to death... then

totally in

. :p Vi knows what I mean.

[DTMaster]

:p. But it doesn't matter once you get the blessed weapons or if you get to kill a boss that way. (Secretly I just solo maps with Ike, Ragnell and Aether. God he's more broken then Hector or Lyn.)