Newbie 853 (Endgame, Mafia win!!)

[DTMaster]

/confirm.

[DTMaster]

I have to agree with cruelty here. I have experience where the lurkers both turn out to be scum or townies so I see lurking as just anti-town at the beginning of the game.

That said if someone is actively lurking, that is a different story (he is online posting in the game, but not posting content). If it's lylo it's also frowned upon. In any case the content of the posts are much more telling then anything.

Also to the newbies here the wiki is your best friend when starting out. :3

Vote: lolImadeanaccount

because you loled when you made your account.

[DTMaster]

@geek

Lurking is anti-town motion, I agree. But it's a case by case scenario. A good rule of thumb is to judge people by their content, rather then their post count.

@Vendel
You do realize that lol is 3 votes away from dying? Besides bandwagoning on the first page on day one isn't scummy.

1. It forces a action reaction response on both party members where you can discuss and analyze their posts.

2. If the bandwagon goes to quick lynch then it's obvious that scum played a good part in it and we catch easy scum. No town in their right mind would quick lynch another person like that.

[DTMaster]

@Concerned
Join dates and consider the situation at hand. Besides it's also a fallicy to grace all newbs with the newbie halo since they also have a chance to be scum. You are making too great of an assumption on this.

The only way you can effectively discern from each player to find scum is to basically scum hunt and discuss. To determine whether it's a newbie mistake involves lots of rereading, and to weigh out the situation. This is a learning game, so getting thrown in the deep end of it all is the best, and pretty much the best way to learn.

@Town
If you want tips on playing good games it would be a good idea to read some completed games for ideas on how to play.

[DTMaster]

Lol wut?

VTs should defend themselves

and scum hunt at the same time while they defend themselves.

All factions do not want to get lynched. Self defeatest play is poor play Concerned.

[DTMaster]

@Cornered
I reread and your argument makes little sense about the vote hopping with the townie.

his whole argument is based on the assumption the vanilla's are so eager to not be voted off they would jump on your second vote simply to not be voted off themselves

The townie should be playing to scum hunt, not to play as scummy townie looking for defense even if he is on the leading wagon. If a towns person decides to follow this path that you outlined he just self implicated himself as ultra scummy, making it an easy lynch against him.

I think realistically, no one would do that unless Person A who votes on next leading wagon B has a solid backing to their vote. The idealized case negates most amount of common sense when playing as townie.

I understand we have to lynch scum by the end of day three or lose so losing villagers hardly helps. I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make, whether deliberately or not I obviously don't know.

Actually we need to lynch scum before they have 50% of the population. Depending on the setup this may extend past day 3 FYI (ie a doctor protects someone, or we choose to not lynch on a day).

@Vendel
If a speed lynch did go through it's much more useful to the town regardless if it's a mislynch. We would know there were scum on that wagon and really cuts the suspects down.

[DTMaster]

@Geek

Because on the next the the only one who would willingly speed lynch/hammer is scum. No townie in their right mind would completely allow a speed lynch to go through. The wagon would be scum fueled.

Especially if this occurs on day one. Analysis on the wagon (if this happened) is 100x more beneficial then any normal wagon. This of course is best applied on day one. Any other day and you are right, we would be justifying speed lynching when the numbers cannot support good analysis.

[DTMaster]

@Town
Sorry D:! Lack of posting etc. etc. etc....

@Ezekial
Tip 1: Read the wiki.
Tip 2: Read completed games.

Now to get you more involved, who do you think is scummy and why?

@Lol/Brother
1. You just realize you asked the newbie to replace out of the newbie thread? That defeats the purpose of this being a newbie game and a teaching game. That's just plain rude to the player.

2. But you didn't unvote geek after his reaction. I would expect you to vote hop a little if you were using votes to test out reactions.

FoS:Brother

. I smell fake scum hunting here.

@Vendel
44: Elaborate here. What is so contradictory about those posts?

@Concerned
Few points about your little back and forth:

The townie should be playing to scum hunt, not to play as scummy townie looking for defense even if he is on the leading wagon. If a towns person decides to follow this path that you outlined he just self implicated himself as ultra scummy, making it an easy lynch against him.

I am well aware of this and this was precisely my point, vendel used the reasoning that townies would act in this manner when casting his vote. Clearly a flawed premise.

This just reeks of scumminess and putting words into Vendel's mouth. A quick Iso read on Vendel reveals:

ISO 1: RVS
ISO 2: Trying to reason my RVS vote as scum-DTM going for an easy bandwagon, which in itself is faulty reasoning.
ISO 3: Defends himself saying he was RVSing to generate discussion.
ISO 4: Discuss conversation starting.

Note

Vendel did not discuss how townies would vote, he talked about his own voting so far and how scum-DTM would try to blend in with the
RVS

ISO 5: Is an attack on you.
ISO 6: Is another attack on you.

This reads as fake case.

To me you come off as scummier with obvious misrepresentation of Vendel.

Unvote

Vote: Concerned

[DTMaster]

Brother
68: That's a poor excuse to not pressure other people. You said geek passed your reaction test, I find your lack of unvoting faulty and would like you to explain:

Do you think geek is scummy? Why or why not? If he is scummy then why did you say

reactions. I wanted to see if you'd freak out and overreact. Obviously, you didn't, and

handled the situation as a townie most likely would.

Unvote

Vote Brothernature

@Vendel
Actually I still suspect Conern for: false case still equates to false case. Even if you believe that he defended himself "well" he still misrepresented you in his intial case. That is one of the key basis

Also I find that you discredit me for FoSing loli without actually discredting my point against her. You use the bandwagoning reason, but I find it very scummy that you do not discredit my case on why I FoSed loli. You use the same reason to imply a DTM and Lizzy team when you did not address the content in the posts.

@Concerned
ISO is my way to say Isolation Post. If you go to the bottom of the page you can sort through the posts by who posted them. See where it says All users. You can read someone's posts in isolation (hence ISO) and it makes sifting through information with rereads a lot easier.

Pro tip for the town

Back on topic:
1. You didn't just attack Vendel, you misrepesented him with your "townie behaviour" case on him. If you read the full analysis, Vendel didn't comment on townie votes but you based your case on what he said was a townie behaviour.

Recall this exchange:

The townie should be playing to scum hunt, not to play as scummy townie looking for defense even if he is on the leading wagon. If a towns person decides to follow this path that you outlined he just self implicated himself as ultra scummy, making it an easy lynch against him.

I am well aware of this and this was precisely my point, vendel used the reasoning that townies would act in this manner when casting his vote. Clearly a flawed premise.

and then read Vendel's post in isolation using the above protip I gave to you and the town.

My reasoning for the fake case is:

1. If you do the above analysis you painted a misrepresented image on Vendel.

Recall this:

Here you just seem a little to eager to paint me as scum. Almost quoting me on something I didn't say. It's one thing to discredit my reasoning and posts, it's quite another to invent a thought process which isn't there.

2. If you do use Vendel's vote at the beginning of the day and use that as your reasoning to attack Vendel for the above reasoning this is a false premise because:

It was during the RVS stage where you generate discussion and focus on gaining reactions. This means that your bandwagon theory cannot apply here because all townies want to begin discussion so we have a starting point. Your theory works only in practice during mid day 1 and past after discussion has well rooted. If someone takes the easy bandwagon once discussion is occuring, then the theory has merit to begin a case.

[DTMaster]

@Concerned

That is his reasoning for his RVS on me. Note that it was addressed to me on why it would make me scummy. Not on how this is a townie behaviour. if you focus on the bolded part:

I know that DTMaster was using a joking reason for voting for LolIMadeAnAccount, but I was thinking of this: it could make other players, who don't want to be voted out, think "Hey great, let's take him, not me."

It's a round about way to say: I am bandwagoning with a joke RVS vote. I'd prefer if Vendel clarified this detail.

Also if this was true: the last part:

All right, I can agree to weak logic, but not faulty.

Makes no sense if he was trying to reason town-DTM because he is maintaining his vote on me since he thinks I'm scummy-DTM. It would make it self contradictory in the first place.

[DTMaster]

Mod: Just making a V/LA note since I'm swamped in homeworks. Will be back Friday/Saturday to post.

Noted.

[DTMaster]

@Town

Sorry was V/LA and such. School takes precedence over this game but when I read the claim and wagon that came afterward I face palmed at the speed of the wagon and brother endorsing his self lynch as cop.

That is poor town play. Sigh. Town PR 101. Do not off yourself like that. A cop = scum breaking role. Especially when geek flipped doctor and we confirmed the F11 setup of

1 goon and 1 rber, 1 cop, and 1 doc, and rest townies.

If I was here protip for the town:

All power role claims should be dealt with day 2 onwards. Under no condition should anyone maintain their vote on a PR.

I was gone so I couldn't unvote.

K now for the game.

I'm going to post it in the next post to break things up reading wise.

[DTMaster]

@Brother
You are dead but you should still be following this game. Since I had to go V/LA I'll answer you anyways.

What? You want me to threaten them with L-4 or L-3? Oooooo, so scary. I'm only 3 votes away from being lynched. What ever shall I do? That doesn't really put pressure on a person. Like I said, I don't like moving my vote around much. Makes me look all Wishy Washy. I prefer to only unvote when I'm about to switch it to some one else.

This in itself is scummy pre and post cop flip. You are saying that the only way you can motivate people is through bandwagon. While yes this is day 1 and action/reaction play is strong in itself bandwagon hopping and voting isn't your only tool to play this game. You can post you know, questions?

@Vendel
87: You do realize you could have just asked my why I didn't answer your post. I missed it when I did my reread but I swear that I answered it. Guess that is a DTM mistake here.

But in reference to your attack on me, there isn't much to say other then it's a weak line of attack in general. Trying to say I'm scummy because I find someone else's case weak and false means I'm scummy? It's not scummy if you think a case is wrong, or if you think someone is townie at the time.

In fact that is the whole point of discussion over cases, you agree and disagree. So your argument is pretty weak there.

91: You do know that you are establishing a link between Concerned and yourself here. You are attacking all the people who seemed to offend you or concerned in this game at this point. Oh Irony.

104: Its false to say all defenses are scummy, but unwarranted or unsupported defenses are. If you can't prove that x person is town or if y person is scummy, then your defense falls flat and you yourself are scummy.

154: I have a gazillion issues with your arguments.

1. Cruelty and myself voted brother for his scummy play. Note that this is before I went VLA and before brother's cop claim.

I attacked brother on page 4 with:

Brother
68: That's a poor excuse to not pressure other people. You said geek passed your reaction test, I find your lack of unvoting faulty and would like you to explain:

Do you think geek is scummy? Why or why not? If he is scummy then why did you say

reactions. I wanted to see if you'd freak out and overreact. Obviously, you didn't, and

handled the situation as a townie most likely would.

Unvote

Vote Brothernature

I also find it funny you ignore Concerned on his vote on post 84.


2. The irony must not have dawned on you that you are accusing me of being scummy for attacking brother pre-claim because I felt his posts were antitown/scummy and fake scum hunting. You fail to address the content in my posts and misrepresent me as pushing for a brother lynch and finally you say you are cleared because brother is scummy.

You hammered the claimed cop who did not have a counter claim against him.


@Concerned
115: If I was there I would say SCUMMY PLAY: YOU ARE JUSTIFYING LYNCHING THE UN COUNTER CLAIMED COP. I CAPS THIS BECAUSE IT'S A GIANT RED FLAG OF SCUM.

But brother killed this argument when he self voted. :<

@Troll
Welcome!

Comments.

1. Good general comments but as a personal philosophy, all PRs should be dealt with day 2 onwards. Night kills become a tool of role confirmation of PRs if there wasn't a doctor, and if there was we could have avoided a NK. Unless the scum team is willing to setup a doc/cop false claim setup but with the role reveals from last night it is obvious this is out of the question.

There are other methods scum could have acted kill, some involves placing WIFOM seeds into the town which I consider a more advanced move that SEs and ICs would have more experience in.

[DTMaster]

@Vendel

1. You do realize that my vote was used to pressure more information out of brother at the time before his claim. That is the nature of action and reaction response that brother was applying to geek.

I was doing the same thing when I first presented my intial case before I posted a V/LA status. What happened afterwards with the selfvote/hammer occured while I was away and I had no control over it. This is why when I read the night results I face palmed from brother's selfvote as the town cop.

2. You still do not addresssed concern's vote on brother with your analysis. I smell fake scum hunting here if you are addressing people who voted on brother, but failed to provide explain how concerned is cleared in this argument.

Recall your original quote:

[quote"VW"] Now that it has been proven that he was town, I believe it has given us an opportunity for a town win. I am looking at the two persons who started and first bandwagoned this hunt, and those two were cruelty and DTMaster. I believe that we have one or two Mafia there. [/quote]

You only focus on the intial two votes that took before the cop claim. You did not addressed what happened afterwards. You also failed to show how mafia couldn't have joined on the bandwagon afterwards.

[DTMaster]

@Concerned
A scum night kill will. Even scummy cop would get killed by mafia since he is game breaking against scum.

If there was no night kill then on day 2 I would test to see if brother's cop claim is true.

These are the conditions I set for myself in all PR claims. Even scummy ones since I have experience with scummy PRs.

If you go into my wiki and read up Foggy London Mafia, I was townie that replaced into a town that lost all 4 PRs in 1 day because of poor town play. Thus I now adopt the above thought to avoid the disaster that scum killed town in one night.

I wasn't here to post this before the hammer so no one is at fault for the hammer. Brother's self explosion added fuel to the fire and Troll's statement is accurate about this. It muddy's up the vote analysis on the wagon.

[DTMaster]

@Town

Sorry I've been sick so I've been posting on and off in segments in all my games.

Mod: Can you delete my 197 since it is a post for another game?

Snipp'd

Now my responses.

@Troll
1. I disagree because of my experience in Foggy Londontown Mafia. Granted that wasn't a newbie game but within 1 night the town lost all their power roles because they played ridiculously scummy. I impose my idea on 2 premises:

a. The night kill will can act as a way to confirm the power role. You suggest the mafia players would focus on RBing the cop (of course) rather then push for cop-kill.

b. We can do a wagon analysis on the PR, but brother mucked it up.

I have some issues with your thoughts since:

This is F11 setup, the only two PRs is a cop and/or doc in our team (confirmed both now). Especially in a 2 goon 1 cop setup, the mafia would kill off the cop before he could rack up too many innocents. Why too many innocents? Because one way to find scum is to clear townies, and it's just a longer way to confirm scum. So to me the day 1 unCounter-Claimed (unCCed) PR lynch is not as effective with the cop being game breaking. A gambit involving scum getting town to lynch the cop after day 1 is something a player with more experience would do.

We only know now after the death of both power roles that a RBer exists

2. I would also like to point out which cruelty mentioned, this was a rushed lynch. If this was deadline, I could see a lynch being more justified but it was 2 weeks. If we consider the first post by the mod to the lynch vote count,

only 8 days passed.

@Concerned
Sorry it's something I developed from experience. "scummy PR" means to me someone who is Town PR but plays scummy. Like brothernature, he selfvoted under pressure to form a lynch wagon. This is scummy, but he was the cop.

I still face palm at this. >>;;

@Vendel.

Post 73: You attacked me for attacking loli because it was an easy target? That is the argument you used against me. This was my argument aganst Loli/Brother at the time:

@Lol/Brother
1. You just realize you asked the newbie to replace out of the newbie thread? That defeats the purpose of this being a newbie game and a teaching game. That's just plain rude to the player.

2. But you didn't unvote geek after his reaction. I would expect you to vote hop a little if you were using votes to test out reactions. FoS:Brother. I smell fake scum hunting here.

Then I said this after your argument

Also I find that you discredit me for FoSing loli without actually discredting my point against her. You use the bandwagoning reason, but I find it very scummy that you do not discredit my case on why I FoSed loli. You use the same reason to imply a DTM and Lizzy team when you did not address the content in the posts.

Again why haven't you discredited my arguments? If you did oppose the suspicion on brother, you would actively do so. Since I'm your prime suspect this also would mean implicating me as scum. Why didn't you?

Post 91: See above. You just repeat.

But do they? I really have to wonder if it's true
In fact, it makes me wonder about you

You follow DTMaster in his doubts against Concerned
And now you follow also in wishing Loli to get burned

You and Master seem like quite a pair, don't you think?
Maybe one with a Mafia's scummy stink!
What do you say, are you a goon or not?
I suspect you now, even if your avatar is hot

Post 104:

Um. Now you just go wishy washy and say you aren't really defending brother but you are attacking me for attacking brother? You buckled under pressure when cruelty pressed on you here:

Fair enough cruelty, here:

Firstly, the implication I'm getting from the italicized part is that it's ok to do scummy things as long as they're unlikely to succeed. Sort of a weird position to take.

No, I meant that I didn't think Loli's vote looked very scummy.

Secondly, you're defending Loli/brothernature

(and pressing the attack on someone else). I tend to think that someone defending another player (before said other player has had a chance to mount their own defence) is more likely to be acting out of self interest, rather than a vested interest in protecting another player. The self interest, obviously, would be protecting a scumbuddy.

Not so much defending brothernature as pointing out how it could be a pattern for DTMaster

: Concerned looked like the best target at first, with many doubting his motives and DTMaster has kept pressing him for that episode. Then it looks like it could be somewhat easy to get a lynch of Loli also, and DTMaster suspected him as well.

So it is not so much defending Loli as suspecting DTMaster. Of course, I have no certain proof, but it is possible that there is a pattern.

Now, cruelty, don't you think you are digging a hole for yourself to fall in? You say, and I quote again:

I tend to think that someone defending another player (before said other player has had a chance to mount their own defence) is more likely to be acting out of self interest, rather than a vested interest in protecting another player. The self interest, obviously, would be protecting a scumbuddy.

So which was it. Were you defending brother? Or attacking me for attacking brother? Or both?

Isn't that

exactly

what you are doing when defending DTMaster?

You used the previous quote in the exchange with cruelty as proof you defended brother, but just admitted that you weren't in that post. >>;;

Actually. I think we found a liar.

In this post from day 1, you accuse me of protecting a scumbuddy when

I defend brothernature.

--- Need a break post the rest later. >>;;

[DTMaster]

Sorry mighty stressed. Posting V/LA status due to school work and still sick. Will be back soon to post something substantial in around 2 days.

[DTMaster]

Sorry I had back to back to back midterms and it's killing me. I'll post ASAP but I want the town to compile all their questions into a post so it'll help coordinate my posting. Rather then a wall/certain post analysis I'll get back into this game starting from there.

[DTMaster]

Ew sorry guys I have work. I'll post my partially completed responses. I was working backwards since I was 4 pages behind and since it's the weekend expect more.

I didn't want to leave the town without content.

Since most of the concerns were my unfinished case analysis I'll just continue that. I'll link to the respective posts since I'm 4 pages behind in this game to make it easier for you and break it up with boxes per person. Sorry to the town, but my lack of activity = non ideal player and is poor play. :<

Lizzy

Lizzy 234: Eww... I dislike this post because it's admitting to a lot of issues of non committal posts. If you are going to defend your self in this way link to some games of yours showing this is true (note they have to be completed). At face value this is just bleah without those links.

Troll

250 I'm getting vibes of a town on town attack possibly. I'm remeniscing of my first newbie game where I played with Tubby216 and we engaged in a game long tunnel fest which ended up as both as townies.

XScorpion

A bit late but welcome to this game.
268: A few things:
1. Don't use the law of averages in this case. You are falling into a fallacy trap.

Content in games >>>>>>> this line of thinking

.

2. I understand why you want me to vote (theory argument) but I dislike being a sticky vote where I can help it. I also didn't expect to be swamped so badly but this is another debate that is off topic. (Though this reminds me of Don_j) Though I find it odd that that was your only request from me. You only asked me to for some scum hunting analysis.
I expected to hear: Thoughts.. etc please. Why didn't you ask that?

3. Why did you ask cruelty on how you can clear yourself? That's just a plain anti-town/scummy question to ask. He and the rest of the town should judge on your posts on how scummy/townie you appear through our own criteria.

4. If you are focused on a Ezk scum theory right now why did you just say:

Assuming we make the wrong lynch today (highly likely from my perspective),

are you really going to prefer having Ezekial during LyLo than myself, given that he doesn't even contribute anything

You are using the too neutral argument on Ezekial? So that means he's not scummy but not townie at the same time. This reads as a partial scum slip to me since it suggests that: you are open if a mislynch occurs. So clarify to me: As it stands is Ezekial scummy or is this poilcy lurker lynching?

Also why do you say its a high chance of mislynching in your POV. If you are applying this to yourself this is just appealing to emotions and you are soft claiming townie here, which in itself is odd and scummy. Be specific heonre: who are you saying is the mislynch. The only leading wagon is yours, and the other leading wagon is a thought wagon Ezekial. If it is on Ezekial, you just defended him saying a mislynch is likely... which to me makes no sense here either.

Debate about Ezekial in the recent exchange

Tbh, I feel that lurking/lack of activity is just anti-town and independant of alignment. From experience, lurkers flipped inconsitantly as scum or town when a lynch went through so using this as an argument against him to me is weak.

I do know Ezekial in real life but I haven't spoken to him in a while after my week of midterm hell so I don't have RL meta to bring here. However this is his first time playing a game like this on this fourm so he is very newby.

This is my partial case but personally my top two picks of scum is Lizzy for her admission for non comittal. It allows her to slide to easily under the radar if we just let this slide. Also XScorpion from Vendle's actions. Concerned is condtional since I link him with Vendel for clearing him so quickly when to me his town clearance idea is quite silly since it ignores the bussing/distancing argument. He then revoked his idea but this reads as null change based on how gradual it was.

[DTMaster]

Also Welcome Agar.

--- More Later. Just commented on the more recent stuff for now. ---

[DTMaster]

Sorry guys this game has been in my neglect pile. :< Anyways more DTM-analysis. I'm doing the recent stuff since I'm tired today.

ScorpionX

279 So you were pushing for a lurker lynch? Does lurking = scummy in your books? (I explained why I don't think lurking = scummy) To me this reads as attacking the easy person to deflect off your wagon.

AGar

280 Hmmm I have meta evidence for your theory but can you point out specifically how ScorpionX is getting emotional? Quotes and such pleas

299: :S. You can be emotional as scum. Aka smart scum will play the town in what ever way they can. Take Hypothetical Agar-scum for example. As Agar-town he states that emotional outbursts = town tell mosty. Agar-scum would make sure if that situation occurs, an emotional out burst might happen. So the emotional =/= scum is too rigid to use.

In fact I can say: Emotional out burst = defensiveness = red flag = scummy. The level of defensiveness and how badly X person reacts needs to be looked (all persons "usually" want to avoid the lynch. Aka it's null to say X person is scummy because they don't want to get lynched.) at: aka. How did the person defend themselves? Then go from there.

Lizzy

282:Ugh... You used the sickness argument. Get better soon. This is still my normal response though:

Since I wasn't cleared enough passiveness = bad for town. I have meta evidence in Zachtown where Haylen cruised for perfect town victory as a passive Mafia Double Voter. In this case I also partially asked for some meta links to your game. I wasn't clear enough so I'll ask again:

Links to your previous games

.

This quote:

My playstyle here is seen as pretty passive, but throughout much of this game, there has never been a reason for me to be on the attack. Many of the rest of you have done quite a lot of attacking and it has only escalated into unreadable, almost unhelpful exchanges. In a game where there is less attacking, I take more active measures,

but in this game it is better for my own understanding of people's actions if I only look at others' attacks and others' reactions, post my views on things and see how they're received

Reads as scum trying to play on the flow of the town and their actions.

290: Shouldn't you prove how my "active scum hunting" is scummy rather then state: DTM is unreadable and he uses some kind of scum hunting that detracts which makes me think he is scummy. How are my opinions bad for the town?

If you disagree with any of my points be specific and point it out. Now k thanks.

Concerned

293: You do realize part of the argument means that you cleared VW of all actions at that time, including hammering the cop. In hindsight a lot of VW's actions are scummy. This also allowed you to go back and restate that you were hasty in clearing VW.

I read fence sitting and wishy washy stances here. But just wanted to make sure: You get pro-town reads from VW/Scorpion?

@Troll
Sorry my original case on VW fell through the dust here :S

In summary though I still believe that VW's actions didn't get cleared by the replacement halo that Scorpion placed.

(Aside: Agar if you are intent on clearing VW/Scorpion you do realize that a ton of his play has been extremely scummy and antitown. Does emotion clear the following actions here? )

Reasons why:
1. He largely ignored my acusations and points and just pins me as scum for starting the BN wagon by being the first vote. He engages in a tunnel war with Cruel and when I addressed some of the inconsistencies or problems with his attack, more ignoring. Aka: not commenting on accusations = scummy because they want to bury it away. See page 8.

He also didn't comment on my arguments made on brothernature on how he was so obvious townie and how I'm obvious scum for being the vote pre-claim. This suggests knowledge that the town shouldn't have (aka alignment aka he is scum) Yes I acknowledge that VW was trying to avoid a bandwagon lynch, but this contradicts his defense since he did hammer 2 weeks before the deadline. He's making his own scenario to fit his defense here. Plus he also WIFOMed himself when he said:

You hold it against me that I hammered? I was thinking to myself, whoever is scum will probably bring up hammering to cast doubt on me, it is a classic. At the surface it seems like a good standard suspicion: whoever hammers is suspect the next day, and so on. That seems to be an often used argument, when I look at other games here, so it would seem valid to use. However, there was no other thing to do than to see if brothernature was scum or not in the end, to get that whole hunt out of the way. Which is obvious

Which raises flags for me.


Personally from what I know at this moment I am open for a
1. VendelWalker/ScorpionX lynch or Concerned. (See my theory about a VW/Concerned team from before)
2. Lizzy. (Issues with play style)

[DTMaster]

EBWOP:

You don't need to relist VW's emotional outbursts Agar. I typing per post and didn't realize page 13 was there. :<

[DTMaster]

@Lizzy

1. Your meta only works if:

that villa was confirmed as pro town

I have evidence of lurking/passiveness as just either town or scum. The way you structure your style makes you like opportunistic scum. In fact I just lost a game because a scum player passively rode on the town's fight. Again I address the player Haylen for that.

2. In review I had attacked you mainly for that admission of the passive style which I had problems with. Personally, your case on Concerned has merit, his day 1 play and defense fits with some nagging issues I had.

3. You also defend Vendel/ScorpionX, to me he was ignoring questions addressed to him and requests. Do you think that's scummy? or just anti-town?

4.. The scum hunting = scummy argument thing, you might as well use: Troll is an IC and is helpful, therefore he is obv scum argument too. Apparently my attempt to scum hunt = scummy just because sometimes my leads are wrong.

Please point out how my points are invalid if you want to continue with this argument. You are basically telling me that scum hunting = scummy. The only one who has issues with scum hunting are scum when town nails them.

If you want to know my style, if I see something scummy I pursue it and see if X person is scum just like I attacked your play style. I did the same to brother on the first day. I've read your defense, you're explanation is fine. I did a quick ISO skim and nothing seems to fall out of place.

[DTMaster]

@Concerned/Scorpion
Ok what the eff. You do realize that if you Concerned and/or you Scorpion are town and you self hammer lynch this puppy to the deadline you just put us into lylo scenerio. Stop this self voting business and get back you scum hunting you two. It both reads as self defeatist and just plain anti-town to do something like that. And you can almost say it's scummy to appeal to the masses that way.

Smacks both of you

@Scorpion
FYI: It is scummy to vote out of self preservation. At all times your focus should be hunting scum. If you are under attack like now you should do both: Scum hunt and defend at the same time.

@Lizzy
1. Do a reread on me. I pointed this out several times to VW and he still ignored me. This to me doesn't spell out: "I posted way too many times and ignored some things by mistake" it just spelled out "I'm ignoring for the sake of putting forward my tunnel argument"

VW also complained about this to me, which I answered his questions once the complaint was noted.

2. Then getting multiple discussions going is bad? If there is something wrong, point it out. If the points are valid, then they are valid. It just boils down to that. You can't just say something was unnecessary but valid at the same time. That's just contradictory. It also allows the town to evaluate each person.

Auto clearing someone just because they appear townie is dangerous if the said person is actually mafia. I like to point out my first newbie game where I made that mistake and convinced the town Almaster was town. He was the last mafia we were trying to hunt.

It gets to the point of being critical of everyone's posts.

@Troll
Ideally I rather not have to resort to the self hammer route if possible. You know what... advocating self hammer is ringing up flags for Troll-scum. It's a subtle way.

Edit: Actually you unvoted. Hmmmm conflicting evidence here...

I'm keeping my vote to myself. I'll be on tomorrow at 12 MST so I can vote then.

[DTMaster]

@Troll
My main suspect is VW/Scorpion. Originally he self voted himself to L-1 so I didn't want to hammer yet. That is where my vote would have gone.

@Concerned
I stress for multi tasking. How about this: you attack Agar and stop a Scorpion lynch if you think he's town. Your play is passive aggressive, like: I'm willing to go on a scorpion lynch because this is the town direction.

@Scorpion
Be a good boy and unvote now. Also you just wifomed yourself like nothing right there. I had enough of these shenanigans. Scum hunt or die. K thanks.

Vote: ScorpionX

This is L-1. Tread lightly.

[DTMaster]

Agar... your post is due today no? It is the deadline lynch day.

[DTMaster]

Ew. I hate lylo situations like this.

No one vote until you are sure you caught scum. They can quick hammer in succession

@Concerned
Um. Try a reread of my comments with Ezekiel and Agar in full thread. I commented about something. They failed to comment back. I'm awaiting more responses especially Agar's response to the hypo-emotional play idea. The lack of interactions stem from the fact that no response was done yet.

I multitasked and still had discussions elsewhere. So in retrospect my VW/Scorpion case was >>>> interactions with Agar in terms of volume because of that.


@Agar
Um you had time to post after you said:

Sorry for my inactivity today - big day in Scumleague Fantasy Football for me, got carried away watching the games. Big post will come ~4 or 5 PM EST for me tomorrow . It's the first opportunity I get.

Analysis please. Also why were you answering questions but didn't post your analysis. Also responses to my comments.

Lastly: why were you not concerned about the information angle. You said that in response to Troll's self-hammer response. It reads as: I'm not concerned with a Scorpion lynch despite your townie read on him and justifying the lynch despite this read.

[DTMaster]

@Agar
Part of actively vocalizing your gut = scum hunting real scum in my opinion. Why didn't you do that even though you just said: gut and emotional play = townie VW/Scorpion?

Sorry for my inactivity today - big day in Scumleague Fantasy Football for me, got carried away watching the games.

Big post will come ~4 or 5 PM EST for me tomorrow

. It's the first opportunity I get.

Where is this big post? I assume its big because you have an analysis to make not, that you would post walls of spam. I'm still waiting. I expected this post regardless of your response to me. I have yet to see this.

@Question
I felt that VW/Scorpion was scum based on VW's day 1 play. His day 2 IGNORE DTM didn't help and when I answered a question he had that I overlooked he vanished. Based on the evidence I had on VW I lynched Scorpion.

[DTMaster]

Er I should say I voted. Lynching is incorrect since it implies I had the hammer vote :< EBWOP.

[DTMaster]

@Agar
So you don't have any scum analysis other then your concerned thing? I expected more from the recent discussions, especially with the added info of the VW/Scorpion wagon.

That's what I'm stressing and I have serious problems about that.

Commenting that self hammering is bad for the town =/= the catchup post after being mainly away before deadline. It was also stressed by me and troll several times before you said this.

This reads as: fake contributions.

[DTMaster]

@Troll

I wanted to hear Scorpion's response to the points I asked him first. Somehow the end of the day scumhunting plz request turned into a selfhammer debate and Scorpion rather going for a self-lynch for the sake of lynching for information.

Yes you unvoted, but pending questions still needed answers.


BTW Troll I just noticed something: I like how you flipflop on your scum hunting stance. In response to Scorpion's attack on Agar:

And you do realize that there are two scum out there, right?

If your only suspect is AGar and they're not going to get lynched and you know that you're town then unless you're particularly sure that someone else isn't scum you should prefer to have them lynched over yourself if the two of you are both suspicious in the town's eyes. You would know that the town won't hit scum if they lynch you but they would be eliminating someone else suspicious who might be scum if they lynch the other player.

All of that is perhaps academic now. We should have been doing this a week ago. Leaving things till the deadline like this is a terrible idea.

You criticize Scorpion for failing to scum hunt and actively push for an Agar lynch when he knows at the least he is town (evident by the flip). Since his main suspect was on Agar, you use: You should also consider the rest of the town because there are two scum.

Hmmm. But the advice you gave to Concerned recently was:

[quote="Troll|] @Concerned, I'm not thrilled with DTMaster's play at the end of the day yesterday either and I started to complain about it some.

On the other hand, unless there's some compelling evidence to link two players I'd rather keep focusing on getting a first scum rather than trying to hit both at the same time. Finding one scum is almost always easier than nailing both before you know either one's alignment for sure.

[/quote]

That's quite a contradiction. Obviously Scorpion found something scummy in Agar's/Eke play that alerted him. From an information standpoint I'm going have to agree that there is very little information pre and post-replacement.

The big post that was promised was a statement: Oh its good, no self hammer = information for the town.

To be an effective IC is to give advice to the town, yes, but to use contradictory arguments, now that's just scummy.

@Agar
You are posting elsewhere. I count 1 game, 1 mishmash and 1 bah post. You are coasting this game. Post your case now.

[DTMaster]

Prod recieved. Sorry I've been a bad SE. :<

I'm going to have to post tomorrow. I just have 1 last midterm and need to prepare for it. Then I can give you feedback for this game.

[DTMaster]

@Cruel
386: um. Incriminate? That is a very odd choice of vocabulary given the connotation of the word Shouldn't it be: Concerned is incriminating himself as scummy and you are the town who points it out, not the town who

incriminates the scum player

.

@Troll
1. Addressed for now. Though I'm going to need to reread to double check. I'll try this Friday.

2. I wanted to see Scorpion's response to my 336. I didn't specifically ask a question but I called him out on his anti-town movement with the self hammer. Especially knowing that he was townie and said: the most logical choice was to lynch him due to his predecessor's actions. That to me is very BS. The most logical choice was to scum hunt and defend at the same time, not advocate an information compromise at the end of the day.

I got this from 339 with the whole "talk is cheap" when the last minute interactions during a high stress time could have been gold if we have scum-Agar and Scorpion pushed on his case better.

I recall a game where scum actually claimed his scum buddy at a point when the wagon was goin against him, Korlash town? I need to double check on that.

3. I'll double check on my point with Scorpion. But I did an iso skim and noticed two things:

a. It was over 1 week when Scorpion entered and got lynched. Due to inactivity (me to blame) would you consider this tunneling due to time frame and the circumstances of the game?

b. Yes Scorpion focused on Agar/Eke but his statements are correct. We have no read on Eke due to his lack of posting except for the tunnel play on VW (which is softened by the newb argument) which is a dangerous player to bring to lylo due to the neutral read argument. Plus scorpion offered a partial analysis of the town in his ISO 2.

I can see some comparisons with Agar's play from the 6th (3 days after Scorpion joined) focused on a Concerned case. Primarlly she defened VW as town and now branced off to me as the second suspect and cruelty today, but she focused on Concerned for day 2.

So I see part of your case, from tunneling (and you did attack cruel for this).

391: I'm disliking the bussing thing. Mainly because

we should keep it in the back of your mind

. Right now it's not a priority for town to identify bussing unless it's that obvious. It should be hunting scum.

Pro tip for the town: The end game is all about sifting through the WIFOM and getting to the facts

. A good tip I was once told.

I dislike the current debate on bussing because that isn't scum hunting. It's just theory talk and also a giant cloud of confusion. Keep it as a mental note to look out for, but scum hunting is the priority.

@Agar
q. 379: Agar if you read my 373 I found the lack of analysis after your "promise for a big post" very frustrating. It reads as: I am making vapour ware and a fake case and only will adress this once pressure builds up.

Yes it was getting late in the deadline, but there was more interactions where I demanded more analysis (espeically with the VW/Scorpion flip) Using the deadline as an excuse to not post your analysis

once the new day began and you were still alive is very odd. It is deflection from the issues with your posts and reads as if you using the deadline as an excuse

Why couldn't you post this 379 after I asked for it one weekish ago.

In comparison, Concerned provided his take on the town at the start of the day. I'll repeat what happened: I asked you for your thoughts and post. You just pointed out the "self hammer information blah blah" post. I asked you why haven't you submitted a big post. You said that was the post. Then I asked you where is the analysis? We have the VW/Scorpion flip and new posts to analyze. Why havent you done that?

We have a back and forth about this, which makes little sense. Aside from my inactivity, these exchanged are just giving me delay tactics vibes.

2. Pre-Lizzy death, you had no issues with her at all? I was on the forefront of attacking her due to her admission that she was playing more passively. Also I can't reread but this may be important

did concerned start to attack Lizzy once I questioned her game style?

. I'll need to do this on the weekend but it maybe important.

3. Concerned's selfhammer, then push, then hammer reads as appeal to the town. Under your analysis I agree this looks like a cop-out. You can also add: L-1ing the claimed cop and a potential scum slip due to autocleaing VW then reverting back on this viewpoint when things went sour. Buddying attempt? Possibly.

@Town
Does anyone get the feeling that Agar's 381 and Cruel's 383 are a bit simillar. Though the angle is diffrent (*Agar with fake scum hunting and Cruel with WIFOM/NK analysis)... it just reads as repetitition over the same issue.

The summary is: Concerned didn't push on his case which is scummy. Stated twice, conclusion 1: Fake scum hunting, conclusion 2: WIFOM defence.

But I just got bad vibes. From experience, repeitition of an argument on a person is scummy. Why? It makes you look like you are contributing. but in actuallity you aren't. That is fake scum hunting.

[DTMaster]

@Cruelty
1.Conotation, or denotation are both arguments over how the words were used. Tbh, incrimintation by definition to me:

Taken from google dictionary is:

incriminating -

Causing

, showing, or proving that one is guilty of wrongdoing

But you are right since it does say:

To accuse or bring criminal charges against; To indicate the guilt of

.

2. If you read my full post you would note this:

Though the angle is diffrent (*Agar with fake scum hunting and Cruel with WIFOM/NK analysis)... it just reads as repetitition over the same issue.

Normally in scenerios where scum is trying their hardest to look townie they might slip up and repeat the same arguments. Noted though I addressed that the method of analysis is diffrent which doesn't raise as many flags as a complete

copy and paste workshop would have

. In a sense they would be contributing to discussions, but in a very false sense of it. Hence fake scum hunting and an indicator of someone who ran out of ideas.

3. You also are subtly suggesting this in your post:

(skim-reading looking for threads to pull, perhaps?)

Now that is scummy. Why? because you aren't doing a direct attack on me. It's also a giant echo of some of the issues about me that leads to no where. While we wait for concern's resposnes from his finals, we can discuss this.

@Troll
Just a reminder for myself to reread the game.

@Concerned
Good luck

[DTMaster]

Sorry guys I'm just at a point where I've gotten busy again. I'll post my thoughts on Wednesday. Lab exam tomorrow. x.x

V/LA till then

[DTMaster]

Sorry I got the prod.

@Town
Before I can answer anything I need to reread. But finals are fast approaching so I want to vote

Vote for: Deadline extension for one week due to holiday and real life

Is it possible to do this Mod?

[DTMaster]

I'm doing a complete reread Agar. If you read just a little above, I extended our deadline. I'm taking time out of studies to post so get ready.

We'll have 4 days once I finish my thoughts and responses so be prepared to get some DTM's bring back the life injections to this game.

[DTMaster]

This game has become the lowest of priorities right now :< sorry.

Anyways. Both Agar and Concerned cannot be scum together, and since there hasn't been a quick hammer, there is only one scum to deal with from Agar and Concerned.

Why?:

A DTM case is much stronger for scum to pursue. A bussing attempt at this stage in the game makes no sense to do so, especially since I've been severely inactive all game.

If both players were townie, scum would have control of the hammer, There is no hammer, there fore both players cannot be town.

Sorry for wasting most of the extension: Anyways through the above logic I feel that scum exists on one of the wagons. But Cruelty's outburst reads as extremely townie to me. Why? He is correct that town requires my vote to win. I think we are dealing with a Troll/ Agar or Concerned team here based on the late game reactions.

Agar is the person whom I'm leaning town towards, Concerned is leaning scummy. I'll be around today if this doesn't budge Concerned is second on my list.

Cruel/Agar/Scorpion if you are town: the common scum link is Zorblag. He should be lynched.

Vote: Zorblag

My reread analysis and responses to questions will come shortly.

[DTMaster]

Concerned: Your AtE is less flattering considering you did:

As cruelty said we can be fairly sure either me or Agar is scum, his willingness to vote off DTM concerned me, he could just be willing to vote off his scum buddy to make himself look innocent, but there is another possibility, where Zorblag and Agar are the scum and voting off DTM would be an easy win.
Zorblag has already said he finds DTM most suspicious and now that I said I might be willing to vote off DTM, Agar is suddenly willing to do the same.

Voting DTM off might be a big mistake for us.

As part of your case against Agar.

[DTMaster]

Vote: Agar

Since cruel decided. If Agar flips scum then tomorrow its a troll lynch since we have two confirmed townies: Concerned and Cruel.

Cruel is confirmed through his end day posting.
Concerned is confirmed if Agar flips scum.

[DTMaster]

Judging by that reaction, this was a success. The debate begins tomorrow.

[DTMaster]

Note: Due to exams: which is partly why I've been away for so long I'll be done on Wednesday. I want to finish this game till the end. V/LAed untill then.

Also since we are basically at this point and we already narrowed this down to a Troll/DTM debate

Vote : Zorblag

[DTMaster]

Sorry I'm editing my case to be more consise: Here is the first part of my post to show this isn't vapor ware. I will also address any left over questions from the previous day while doing this.

I apologize, working on my case. But while I'm doing this I want you to make your own decisions and do a reread as well.Rerlying on just our cases is ok but I rather have your input on everything while we do this.

What we know:
Agar (Ezekal) is scum.
Everyone else is town.

The argument:
DTMaster vs Troll (Far_cry)

Issue 1: The Lurking.

Considering this game has been dying in the late game everyone as been inactive from this game. I'm probably the biggest culprit. IN this case we have:

DTM is active at the start then ends up lurking with sporadic activity.
VW vanished from the game after some heat.
Eze lurking, replacing out as newb scum. This is followed by Agar's minor posting which I had to arivate out of her to post.
Farcry posting then replacing out.
End of day lack of discussion when I asked for a deadline extension done by everyone (partly caused by my inactivity).

We have lots of lurking culprits but again: Lurking isn't a very solid scum tell. It is shown in both town and scum spectrum with VW and Eze/Agar being the confirmed people. We also have this with both DTM and Farcry/Troll. The biggest thing: was last day deadline time when Troll had a 7 day absence only to address my initial vote and attack on him rather then Agar/Concerned. I will address this in more depth in the following.

[DTMaster]

EBWOP: The You: Is mainly addressed to Cruelty. I'll do my best for this case but I'd be much more comfortable if he also does a good reread at this point too.

[DTMaster]

@Troll

Lurking is 1 of many issues. If you read the full post I'm finishing and editing. If you look at my posts, I'm the only one who thought of an deadline extension during thanksgiving weekend. I'm not stalling for time. It's counter productive for me to do this unless I get really busy IRL.

Also note the whole

Issue 1 part

showing how it's an incomplete case. Its not my strongest point, but I'm using it as my opening point for a reason. Allow me to continue while I pull some quotes for my case.

[DTMaster]

Issue 2. Treatment of Ezkekai/Agar

Ok now you are overdoing this:

Day 1/2: Help the newbie. Me, geek, you, and the whole town tried to get him more involved in playing. This is the point of newbie games: let the newbie get engaged in playing. >>;; Day 1/2 actions = null on all parties because

I'd like to remind you that this is a newbie game and we should encourage all new players to play the game.

What troubles me is you twist this fact against me when Ezkekai was playing before Agar replaced in. The best reasoning: all actions of this nature is null tell, not scummy or townie in any way, This is because as a newbie game the role of more experienced players is to get them to post more.

Personally the first time I was playing, I was hesitant to post because the game was intimidating to play. Hence the: "Explain your reasoning posts!" which is much more constrictive then "omg you lurk lynch the newbie because this is a newbie game".

The scummy part is your reasoning on my interactions with Eke. Now look at your interactions with Eke before the replacment.

ISO Post 9: You attack him for his lack of input and put your vote on him. You question him again on his input. This is similar to what I did, minus the advice I gave out to all newbie players.

ISO Post 10: Same thing but now you switch over to VW.

ISO Post 15: Advice to Eke before he is replaced.

ISO Post 16: Now you just comment on him.

My Interactions

Yes lots of late interactions but I have giant time gaps in between my posts leading up to Agar's replacement.

The Question:
If you found this scummy why didn't you maintain your stance against him and went for VW/Scorpion? What's interesting to note is the change over from your first Eke vote to VW.

This is the first part of your attack on me. You are criticizing my lack of interactions with Eke pre-Agar replacement, which I can't deny since I barely posted. But in terms of what I posted, its the same as yours: with the "please post more and why?". Now, I'm criticizing your stance when you switch over from Eke to VW.

You constantly place Agar/Eke as the top of your scum list, but never push this.Each day someone is more scummier then Agar/Eke. The previous day's exchanges are quite explicit.

Rather then go for an Agar lynch, when the heat turned up against me DTM from cruel and Agar (your scum partner), you suddenly put me at the top of your scum list. This contradicts the Day 2 analysis where you have a fairly ok read on me, and I don't see a good transition other then scum forcing a wagon attempt against me.

The end day actions were clear too when you didn't vote for Agar. I find it troubling that the only response that was drawn during the deadline hours was when I attacked you and you attacked me. I'd expected before then that you would follow up on your psudo-attack on Agar but you only dealt with my vote. Then added on to the DTM/Agar theory.

But didn't vote Agar, just DTM.

Now the whole lurking argument. Lurking is anti town and I just gave an example where a townie and a scum player both did it from this game. From experience I had equal amounts of town and scum flip from lurking (really read some of my past games if you don't believe me)

Add on the day 1 speed lynch and the first half of day 2: that summarizes the interactions between me and Eke.

Now Agar replaces in...

[DTMaster]

Um... sorry dude but I wasn't done. V.V

Here was my g-mail rough draft I was posting. I swear I was working on it, hence the whole posting in parts so I don't fall behind.

Anyways troll played well, I didn't in the end game. I wanted to expand on the AGar thing you did Troll since that was going to be a giant nail against you (everyone was scummier then Agar yet you never followed through on him)

Plus you didn't let me respond back. SIiiiiigh!

---- cut my unedited stream of consciousness stuff ---
1. You ignore my attacks on Agar post Scorpi
on lynch, which yourself backed up.
2.

Now here is the intresting point. Troll acusses me of being scum with Ezkekail/Agar

Issue 2: Last days vote.

I like how Troll outlines an Agar/DTM scum team but fails to vote Agar here.

Well now, that's an interesting development. I haven't been hammered and everyone's been posting so I can be certain enough that DTMaster is scum and has to be partnered with either AGar or Concerned. I'm not sure which of the other two DTMaster is is protecting with his post and there's a fair amount of WIFOM involved but my guess is that it's AGar both on what DTMaster said there and how the day has gone (I think that AGar was more liklely to have been the lynch though it's not completely cut and dry.)

Of the reactions to DTMaster's vote I like Concerned's much better. Both Concerned and AGar would know at the point that DTMAster cast his vote that if they were town the other should be scum. If you're sure about scum in LyLo it's much better to vote for them as you can't make any mistakes and any other options will be at least as clear in the future. Further, for AGar to go from an apparent null read on DTMaster and a fairly town read with some doubts on me to being 40% convinced (almost as sure that it's true as that it's false) by DTMaster's case which relies on him being town a page later is way too convenient. It looks much more like opportunistic scum trying to position them self for a second option for a mislynch than anything concerned has given in terms of reactions.

First of: Troll argues that Concern had a better reaction to my vote then Agar and then throws in an buddying argument against me. It's also a good defence on concerned. But Troll has isolated that the scum team is Agar/DTM I don't understand why Troll didn't follow through on his secondary vote. It feels like scum trying to keep his hammer open if someone was to vote Concerned.

In the case of Agar vs Concerned: I was split 40/60 towards Agar:Concerned. Why? With all the repeated arguments to summarize: It made no sense to have town speed fire on a claimed cop, especially with the after lynch banter they had. Concerned and VW were firing off bells for me. Lots of contradictions on Concerned and VW part. Finally the auto-clearing logic made no sense to me. Agar/Ezkeikal was lower on my scumdar due to this. The only big thing that may have tipped me off was Ezke's insistence to lynch VW without a case. But this is a newbie game and most players stressed for wiki reading and posting some kind of case towards scum hunting. Hence my lenience to let Ezke's posts slide as a newbie, while questioning him.

From my point of view I outlined:

The only possible person who's scum is Troll last day. We all agree there was at least one scum between Agar and Concerned pre-flip. What tipped me off about you cruelity are all the little signs of a frustrated townie:

Very insistent discussion and questioning while I was away. The biggest thing was the whole vote aspect that town needed everyone to lynch scum. No scum player in their right mind would ever complain about that because if town fails to lynch and the game resolves into nolynch: the scum wins. It made sense from there that Troll was the obvious scum. But in my case from Agar/Concerned I was split on either case.

It would have made more sense to push for a concerned lynch or force it into a nolynch situation rather then draw out the last remaning scum.

The rest of the post is justifying why Troll didn't vote Agar and why he would rather vote me. If anything it spells out: reluctant scum buddy to bus so close to the end game.

Issue 3: Misrepresentation of Defence.

Hey hey Troll: Look at what we have here!

With all three of them there are serious issues about information that we're working with. For AGar much of it comes from Ezekial who gave us very little to work with but I do agree that AGar seemed to promise more than he delivered at the end of the day yesterday. From a purely informational standpoint I like his play a lot better today. With DTMaster and to a lesser degree Concerned we've got much less to go on yesterday compared to what we had the first day. I don't think that it's necessarily a playstyle thing for either of them like it was for Ezekial and I do know that RL can rear is ugly, busy head at time. It certainly has for me this game day thus far.

This is more wishy washy defend and distancing in the same post. You accuse my defense of a newbie for being a newbie, but you went out of your way to defend Agar's play and the lack of readability on his part.

Response to your Question

[DTMaster]

I know. I wanna go WAAA. :S

Mainly because I finally had the time to post for this game.

[DTMaster]

I was building my case piece by piece cruel >>;; I'm sorry that I find out 2 games is my max during high stress exam time. Policy lynches aren't fun :<

[DTMaster]

Actually if you were going for a policy lynch, you might as well hammered me at the start of the day rather then give me time to reread and build up my case. >>;;

[DTMaster]

A town win considering the cop self destructed and both VW/Scorpion and Concerned were in the deep end because of it would have been the most amazing come back ever.

:<

I did request you do your own work as well when I was building my case.

[DTMaster]

@Troll
Lurking is an anti-town tell to me. If you read my wiki experience, I've only experienced three games where town caught scum through lurking and two - three games where we killed townies for it.

To me, its not nearly enough of a strong tell to attack someone for it.

[DTMaster]

I should add that Cruel killed me in frustration rather then case analysis :s

[DTMaster]

ZOMG A MOD ERROR?