Newbie 853 (Endgame, Mafia win!!)

[cruelty]

I do, but I'm going to wait for you both to put your cases forward first.

[Zorblag]

OK, the case on DTMaster.

For the first part of the game DTMaster never comes out and openly defends Ezekial but he does make sure to mention that lurking is anti-town rather than being scummy. In fact that's pretty much the only way in which he addresses the issue of Ezekial at all during the first game day beyond giving him advice for how to get into the game asking once who he suspected. When AGar replaces in he still doesn't get around to having any significant exchanges with him until day three, and really on day three he's throwing mud all over the place. There's the whole AGar and cruelty are using the same idea line and his trying to put a contradiction into what I was saying about hunting for one scum first.

He's spent much of the game not present but when he's been here he consistently steered us away from an Ezekial/AGar lynch, never really put any pressure on the player spot and was generally an enabler for lack of activity. The clincher is really how he acted at the end of the day yesterday though. As we were approaching deadline with wagons on AGar and Concerned he votes for me when he says that he's sure one of them must be scum and recommends lynching the townie of the two of them. That's just not the right play to make for town; unless he had started to try to make a different case much earlier (or had a stronger case at the time) he should have been deciding which of those two to vote for. As scum though, voting for Concerned was a gamble because he knew that he would have been voting for town and if no one hammered but instead the two of us voted for AGar he'd be largely confirmed as scum as anyone else as scum would have hammered Concerned for the win.

Instead, by voting for me he added a bit more confusion right when we had to make a choice and giving you bad advice about which of AGar and concerned to go for. If you had gone with his argument that I was scum (which he conveniently failed to provide) or if you listened to him about which of the other two was the better lynch he would have won.

At this point I know that DTMaster is scum. I hope that you can see that he's spent the game misdirecting the town and protecting his partner but like I said earlier, I'm happy to answer any questions you've got.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[cruelty]

Note: Due to exams: which is partly why I've been away for so long I'll be done on Wednesday. I want to finish this game till the end. V/LAed untill then.

Also since we are basically at this point and we already narrowed this down to a Troll/DTM debate

Vote : Zorblag

where are you?

at this point regardless of alignment you've managed to completely and utterly ruin the game.

[Zorblag]

Stalling to finish out a game is an irritating scum tactic but it's not really a change from what DTMaster has been doing for essentially the entire time that I've been here. I certainly recognize that life gets busy; the end of quarter for me is an example of that but this goes beyond that. I know that DTMaster was about yesterday; I saw him browsing this forum and I know he posted elsewhere.

Mod, could you please prod DTMaster?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[DTMaster]

Sorry I'm editing my case to be more consise: Here is the first part of my post to show this isn't vapor ware. I will also address any left over questions from the previous day while doing this.

I apologize, working on my case. But while I'm doing this I want you to make your own decisions and do a reread as well.Rerlying on just our cases is ok but I rather have your input on everything while we do this.

What we know:
Agar (Ezekal) is scum.
Everyone else is town.

The argument:
DTMaster vs Troll (Far_cry)

Issue 1: The Lurking.

Considering this game has been dying in the late game everyone as been inactive from this game. I'm probably the biggest culprit. IN this case we have:

DTM is active at the start then ends up lurking with sporadic activity.
VW vanished from the game after some heat.
Eze lurking, replacing out as newb scum. This is followed by Agar's minor posting which I had to arivate out of her to post.
Farcry posting then replacing out.
End of day lack of discussion when I asked for a deadline extension done by everyone (partly caused by my inactivity).

We have lots of lurking culprits but again: Lurking isn't a very solid scum tell. It is shown in both town and scum spectrum with VW and Eze/Agar being the confirmed people. We also have this with both DTM and Farcry/Troll. The biggest thing: was last day deadline time when Troll had a 7 day absence only to address my initial vote and attack on him rather then Agar/Concerned. I will address this in more depth in the following.

[DTMaster]

EBWOP: The You: Is mainly addressed to Cruelty. I'll do my best for this case but I'd be much more comfortable if he also does a good reread at this point too.

[Zorblag]

Although I'm not that interested in getting into a discussion about whose lurking had a bigger impact on the game (I think it's clear but it's cruelty whose opinion there matters) there are a couple corrections to DTMatster's last post to make. AGar is a he. That's largely irrelevant. I dispute the fact that DTMaster was the one who got AGar posting (assuming that's what arivate is meant to mean) as AGar was clearly responding to everyone in the game. I also completely disagree that I didn't adress AGar and Concerned in the post where I reacted to DTMaster's last minute vote on me. I spent more effort that post talking about AGar and Concerned than I did DTMaster as one of them was almost certainly going to be the lynch despite the fact that I then knew that DTMaster had to be scum.

All of that aside though this post from DTMaster feels like stalling while he's trying to scrounge up a case on me or a defense for himself. The lurking is an issue but it's not the keystone of the case against him. Given that he voted me yesterday he should have stronger reasons to present that he thinks I'm scum; he should have given them yesterday if he had them and they should have been the first issue for him to get out there today.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[DTMaster]

@Troll

Lurking is 1 of many issues. If you read the full post I'm finishing and editing. If you look at my posts, I'm the only one who thought of an deadline extension during thanksgiving weekend. I'm not stalling for time. It's counter productive for me to do this unless I get really busy IRL.

Also note the whole

Issue 1 part

showing how it's an incomplete case. Its not my strongest point, but I'm using it as my opening point for a reason. Allow me to continue while I pull some quotes for my case.

[DTMaster]

Issue 2. Treatment of Ezkekai/Agar

Ok now you are overdoing this:

Day 1/2: Help the newbie. Me, geek, you, and the whole town tried to get him more involved in playing. This is the point of newbie games: let the newbie get engaged in playing. >>;; Day 1/2 actions = null on all parties because

I'd like to remind you that this is a newbie game and we should encourage all new players to play the game.

What troubles me is you twist this fact against me when Ezkekai was playing before Agar replaced in. The best reasoning: all actions of this nature is null tell, not scummy or townie in any way, This is because as a newbie game the role of more experienced players is to get them to post more.

Personally the first time I was playing, I was hesitant to post because the game was intimidating to play. Hence the: "Explain your reasoning posts!" which is much more constrictive then "omg you lurk lynch the newbie because this is a newbie game".

The scummy part is your reasoning on my interactions with Eke. Now look at your interactions with Eke before the replacment.

ISO Post 9: You attack him for his lack of input and put your vote on him. You question him again on his input. This is similar to what I did, minus the advice I gave out to all newbie players.

ISO Post 10: Same thing but now you switch over to VW.

ISO Post 15: Advice to Eke before he is replaced.

ISO Post 16: Now you just comment on him.

My Interactions

Yes lots of late interactions but I have giant time gaps in between my posts leading up to Agar's replacement.

The Question:
If you found this scummy why didn't you maintain your stance against him and went for VW/Scorpion? What's interesting to note is the change over from your first Eke vote to VW.

This is the first part of your attack on me. You are criticizing my lack of interactions with Eke pre-Agar replacement, which I can't deny since I barely posted. But in terms of what I posted, its the same as yours: with the "please post more and why?". Now, I'm criticizing your stance when you switch over from Eke to VW.

You constantly place Agar/Eke as the top of your scum list, but never push this.Each day someone is more scummier then Agar/Eke. The previous day's exchanges are quite explicit.

Rather then go for an Agar lynch, when the heat turned up against me DTM from cruel and Agar (your scum partner), you suddenly put me at the top of your scum list. This contradicts the Day 2 analysis where you have a fairly ok read on me, and I don't see a good transition other then scum forcing a wagon attempt against me.

The end day actions were clear too when you didn't vote for Agar. I find it troubling that the only response that was drawn during the deadline hours was when I attacked you and you attacked me. I'd expected before then that you would follow up on your psudo-attack on Agar but you only dealt with my vote. Then added on to the DTM/Agar theory.

But didn't vote Agar, just DTM.

Now the whole lurking argument. Lurking is anti town and I just gave an example where a townie and a scum player both did it from this game. From experience I had equal amounts of town and scum flip from lurking (really read some of my past games if you don't believe me)

Add on the day 1 speed lynch and the first half of day 2: that summarizes the interactions between me and Eke.

Now Agar replaces in...

[Zorblag]

The Question:
If you found this scummy why didn't you maintain your stance against him and went for VW/Scorpion? What's interesting to note is the change over from your first Eke vote to VW.

I switched to Vendlewalker because Ezekial actually responded to some pressure by starting to post and because Vendelwalker's stance was increasingly scummy in my opinion with his blatant misinterpreting of the way day one had gone down.

Trying to equate our interactions with Ezekial simply doesn't work. The day that you were most active was day one. You spent the day not trying to apply any sort of pressure to him but rather excusing the behavior. I applied pressure to Ezekial via my vote and then when he started posting took the effort to try to get him to back up his his answers. You're right that in a newbie game it's not good to lynch people just because they're new and don't know what to do. On the other hand it doesn't help them learn anything to just let them sit back and do nothing.

Saying that I suddenly put you at the top of my scum list when it was coming down to Concerned and AGar isn't true either. I was having issues with you and your level of participation for the second half of day two. Your lack of any votes and disappearing act were giving us less to work with. The turning point really was your holding back with your vote at the end of the day after not having spent any time contributing. I took issue with it at the time. Day three your continued ignoring of the game and finding reasons to not be around moved you to the top of my list of suspicions.

As for my reaction to your vote for me at the end of day three, I've already talked about it. With your vote and everyone else posting you there became no question that you were scum making you the correct vote to make at the time. I argued that AGar was likely your partner and fortunately Cruelty made the correct choice between the two of them despite your confusing the issue.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[cruelty]

vote: DTM

Honestly don't really care anymore. You've been consistently scummy over the last few pages and your inactivity took all the fun out of the game.

Zorblag if you're scum well played.

[Nikanor]

I wonder who won?!
(P.S. I know who won! )

[DTMaster]

Um... sorry dude but I wasn't done. V.V

Here was my g-mail rough draft I was posting. I swear I was working on it, hence the whole posting in parts so I don't fall behind.

Anyways troll played well, I didn't in the end game. I wanted to expand on the AGar thing you did Troll since that was going to be a giant nail against you (everyone was scummier then Agar yet you never followed through on him)

Plus you didn't let me respond back. SIiiiiigh!

---- cut my unedited stream of consciousness stuff ---
1. You ignore my attacks on Agar post Scorpi
on lynch, which yourself backed up.
2.

Now here is the intresting point. Troll acusses me of being scum with Ezkekail/Agar

Issue 2: Last days vote.

I like how Troll outlines an Agar/DTM scum team but fails to vote Agar here.

Well now, that's an interesting development. I haven't been hammered and everyone's been posting so I can be certain enough that DTMaster is scum and has to be partnered with either AGar or Concerned. I'm not sure which of the other two DTMaster is is protecting with his post and there's a fair amount of WIFOM involved but my guess is that it's AGar both on what DTMaster said there and how the day has gone (I think that AGar was more liklely to have been the lynch though it's not completely cut and dry.)

Of the reactions to DTMaster's vote I like Concerned's much better. Both Concerned and AGar would know at the point that DTMAster cast his vote that if they were town the other should be scum. If you're sure about scum in LyLo it's much better to vote for them as you can't make any mistakes and any other options will be at least as clear in the future. Further, for AGar to go from an apparent null read on DTMaster and a fairly town read with some doubts on me to being 40% convinced (almost as sure that it's true as that it's false) by DTMaster's case which relies on him being town a page later is way too convenient. It looks much more like opportunistic scum trying to position them self for a second option for a mislynch than anything concerned has given in terms of reactions.

First of: Troll argues that Concern had a better reaction to my vote then Agar and then throws in an buddying argument against me. It's also a good defence on concerned. But Troll has isolated that the scum team is Agar/DTM I don't understand why Troll didn't follow through on his secondary vote. It feels like scum trying to keep his hammer open if someone was to vote Concerned.

In the case of Agar vs Concerned: I was split 40/60 towards Agar:Concerned. Why? With all the repeated arguments to summarize: It made no sense to have town speed fire on a claimed cop, especially with the after lynch banter they had. Concerned and VW were firing off bells for me. Lots of contradictions on Concerned and VW part. Finally the auto-clearing logic made no sense to me. Agar/Ezkeikal was lower on my scumdar due to this. The only big thing that may have tipped me off was Ezke's insistence to lynch VW without a case. But this is a newbie game and most players stressed for wiki reading and posting some kind of case towards scum hunting. Hence my lenience to let Ezke's posts slide as a newbie, while questioning him.

From my point of view I outlined:

The only possible person who's scum is Troll last day. We all agree there was at least one scum between Agar and Concerned pre-flip. What tipped me off about you cruelity are all the little signs of a frustrated townie:

Very insistent discussion and questioning while I was away. The biggest thing was the whole vote aspect that town needed everyone to lynch scum. No scum player in their right mind would ever complain about that because if town fails to lynch and the game resolves into nolynch: the scum wins. It made sense from there that Troll was the obvious scum. But in my case from Agar/Concerned I was split on either case.

It would have made more sense to push for a concerned lynch or force it into a nolynch situation rather then draw out the last remaning scum.

The rest of the post is justifying why Troll didn't vote Agar and why he would rather vote me. If anything it spells out: reluctant scum buddy to bus so close to the end game.

Issue 3: Misrepresentation of Defence.

Hey hey Troll: Look at what we have here!

With all three of them there are serious issues about information that we're working with. For AGar much of it comes from Ezekial who gave us very little to work with but I do agree that AGar seemed to promise more than he delivered at the end of the day yesterday. From a purely informational standpoint I like his play a lot better today. With DTMaster and to a lesser degree Concerned we've got much less to go on yesterday compared to what we had the first day. I don't think that it's necessarily a playstyle thing for either of them like it was for Ezekial and I do know that RL can rear is ugly, busy head at time. It certainly has for me this game day thus far.

This is more wishy washy defend and distancing in the same post. You accuse my defense of a newbie for being a newbie, but you went out of your way to defend Agar's play and the lack of readability on his part.

Response to your Question

[Concerned]

lol DTM it's over bud, give up .

A bit disappointing scum won in the end, but it was still a fun game imo.
It's ironic how all of our early paranoia about the mastermind IC turned out to be correct .

I learned a lot in the end, gg wp.

P.S. I don't really think DTM was to blame any more than any other villa (apart from maybe Cruelty)

[XScorpion]

This game has convinced me never to replace into games again. I was dead from the get-go, not very fun.

[DTMaster]

I know. I wanna go WAAA. :S

Mainly because I finally had the time to post for this game.

[cruelty]

I had a fairly strong gut feeling that Zorblag was scum. I just wanted to hammer you for ruining the game.

[Nikanor]

I'm disappointed in you, cruelty. There goes your perfect record. D:

[Sironigous]

Vote Count!

cruelty
DTMaster (2) - Zorblag, cruelty
Zorblag (1) - DTMaster

Not Voting: No one!

"Psst, he's scum..."
"No, he's scum..."
"Y'know, I think he's scum, but I'll vote for the other scum!"


With 2 votes, DTMaster has been lynched.

He was a

Vanilla Townie

.

What's that mean?

The Mafia have won Newbie 853.

Congratulations to Zorblag and AGar!

Roles:

Roleblock Ezekial/AGar
Vani Team Aether/ Lizzy
Vani cruelty
Vani Vendelwalker/ XScorpiion
Vani Concerned
Cop LolIMadeAnAccount/ brothernature
Van DTMaster (SE)
Doc geekalicious (SE)
Goon Far_Cry (IC)/ Zorblag


Night Actions -
N1:
geek protects Lizzy
Zorblag kills geek
Ezek roleblocks DTM

N2:
Zorblag kills Lizzy

N3:
Zorblag kills Concerned

[Sironigous]

.. I have comments, but I'll let you guys go first...

[Mr. Flay]

Never trust the IC, when it's related to the game itself.

[DTMaster]

I was building my case piece by piece cruel >>;; I'm sorry that I find out 2 games is my max during high stress exam time. Policy lynches aren't fun :<

[DTMaster]

Actually if you were going for a policy lynch, you might as well hammered me at the start of the day rather then give me time to reread and build up my case. >>;;

[cruelty]

I was going to but talked myself out of it.

I was sort of in a state of disbelief this entire game at how poorly brothernature played (what an idiot) and I was surprised VW was innocent.

I had a gut read on Zorblag that he was scum from WAY back, but I never saw anything I could specifically point to and build a case on, I tried a couple times to say strange things to try to draw him out but he wasn't buying it so I decided to let it slide.

So yeah, RIP perfect record. I should just listen to my gut I guess. Seems to be right most of the time.

[DTMaster]

A town win considering the cop self destructed and both VW/Scorpion and Concerned were in the deep end because of it would have been the most amazing come back ever.

:<

I did request you do your own work as well when I was building my case.