Newbie 853 (Endgame, Mafia win!!)

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Post Post #150 (ISO) » Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:38 pm

Post by Sironigous »

The LYNCH Vote Count


Ezekial
Lizzy Tsoi
cruelty
Vendelwalker
Concerned
brothernature (5) - cruelty, DTMaster, Concerned, brothernature, Vendelwalker
DTMaster
geekalicious (1) - Far_Cry
Far_Cry

Not Voting: Ezekial, Lizzy Tsoi, geekalicious

With 9 players alive, it
takes
took 5 to lynch!

Players! You have reached a lynch on brothernature.



brothernature,
Town Cop, badge and all,
has been lynched.

All players that can night-talk may now begin to now.
Send all night actions to me within 5 days of this post. Day may begin earlier if the night actions are sent promptly.

Note to Far_Cry and Ezekial: Since we are in night there is no way to post in this game. Please send me a PM by Friday, 8:00 EST, or else I will have to replace you.

We are now entering NIGHT 1.
Trinka Trinka!
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Post Post #151 (ISO) » Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:59 pm

Post by Sironigous »

Far_Cry has not posted on this site at all since last Saturday, therefore I will have to find a replacement for him.
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Post Post #152 (ISO) » Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:54 pm

Post by Sironigous »

Zorblag has graciously agreed to replace Far_Cry. He is your new IC! Please welcome him once the thread reopens.
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Post Post #153 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:47 am

Post by Sironigous »

Morning!

I think everyone was feeling OK...

Except for...








geekalicious.

geekalicious, Town Doctor, has been killed by the mafia.


It is now Day 2!

Deadline is on November 9, around 7:00 PM EST.

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch!
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Post Post #154 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:28 am

Post by Vendelwalker »

Well, brothernature turned out to be the cop after all.

I regret nothing. He was firing off scumtells like candy from a Pez dispenser. (Acting emotional, claiming to be cop without finding scum first, claiming it in such a way that you couldn't decide if he was serious or just bullshitting us, challenging everyone - and me directly - to claim cop which would make a person a night-kill target, voting on himself when bandwagoned to gain sympathy. He just wasn't playing pro-town eventually, he was being chaotic.) However, that was toward the end, and it doesn't justify the hunt that was started against him.

Now that it has been proven that he was town, I believe it has given us an opportunity for a town win. I am looking at the two persons who
started
and
first bandwagoned
this hunt, and those two were
cruelty
and
DTMaster
. I believe that we have one or two Mafia there.

I will repeat my points from earlier: there was not enough to lynch Loli/brothernature for, but DTMaster and cruelty got the bandwagon going anyway. Just like they had pushed for lynching Concerned earlier, as you can see on page 2 and page 3 - it seemed the best bet at first, when I seemed a reliable ally against Concerned, and Geekalicious also questioned Concerned. DTMaster led that chase, hard. Cruelty, perhaps choosing not to be too obvious, put a FoS on Concerned - in the vote tally after a lynch he would not be seen right after DTMaster that way, but his FoS still added to the pitchforks leveled at Concerned and worked toward a lynch.

Then Loli seemed the best target, since he played in a rather flippant way that could be trusted to annoy many.

When I repeatedly questioned DTMaster's weak grounds for lynching Loli, cruelty posted a suspicion that I could be protecting Loli because he was a scum buddy. According to cruelty, defending someone else before he has defended himself is scummy. (Which was exactly what he himself did when defending DTMaster!)

DTMaster has played this very well. Rather than responding to my suspicions he has ignored them, knowing that more posts over a suspicion draws attention and suspicion. That is just how people work.

I
vote: DTMaster
. Let's see what the reason was for those two hunts on weak grounds, against Concerned and Loli.
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Post Post #155 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:10 am

Post by Zorblag »

Good day.

I'll be replacing Far_Cry from here on out. I skimmed over the game when I offered to replace in but I'm going to need to give it a thorough read through before I make much in the way of comments. What I do know right now is that brothernature robbed us of a good deal of the information that we'd normally have from yesterday. If you take nothing else away from this game take away the fact that self voting is a bad move to make as town. It's true in almost all situations.

I've got a busy day today but I'll be posting my initial thoughts about what our situation is this evening (PDT.) If you're curious about my play you can find links to all of the games that I've played here at Mafia Scum on my wiki (there's a link to that at the bottom of this post.) You're welcome to call me Zorblag, Zorb, Zor, Z or Troll, whichever you like. I think that I'm meeting you all for the first time so I'm looking forward to getting to know you and your play styles. If you have any questions about this game that you'd like me to weigh in on in particular don't hesitate to ask. I'm also now the game's IC so if you've got any general questions about how games go here I'll be happy to answer those as well.

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Post Post #156 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:43 am

Post by Concerned »

Blah, I can't even explain the depths of my annoyance with brothernature...

I'm hesitant to do anything rash at this point. Geek seemed just as suspicious as the rest of the active players (DT, VW, Cruelty) and now with geek and brother gone the bottom line is 3/7's of this game haven't been active enough for me to have any information on them at all... I'm starting to wonder if being inactive makes a player more likely to be scum or pro-village...

For now
VOTE : DTMaster


Time to talk.
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Post Post #157 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:44 am

Post by Concerned »

Oh and welcome Troll :).
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Post Post #158 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:27 am

Post by brothernature »

Mod, are we allowed one, "Bah" style post?
You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone
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Post Post #159 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:45 am

Post by Vendelwalker »

brothernature wrote:
Mod, are we allowed one, "Bah" style post?
I can't help but note that you have had four days to ask Sironigous that in PM
And we are here, as on a darkling plain
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight
Where ignorant armies clash by night
[i]--Matthew Arnold, Dover Beach[/i]
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Post Post #160 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:25 am

Post by cruelty »

Ugh, brothernature. That was horrible, horrible play.

Vendelwalker wrote: When I repeatedly questioned DTMaster's weak grounds for lynching Loli, cruelty posted a suspicion that I could be protecting Loli because he was a scum buddy. According to cruelty, defending someone else before he has defended himself is scummy. (Which was exactly what he himself did when defending DTMaster!)

Please quote my defence of DTM.
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Post Post #161 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:15 pm

Post by Zorblag »

OK, I'm done with work for the day and will have a chance to look over the game in more detail soon. While I'm doing that I'd like Concerned to explain why he's voting for DTMaster without giving any reasons, thus putting someone at L-2 right after saying that he's hesitant to do anything rash. I don't recall Concerned leaving day one with a major case on DTMaster that he'd be continuing but perhaps I've forgotten something from when I skimmed through the game earlier.

We have every reason to take our time and examine things today. There's very little that would be worse for us at this point than a quick mislynch. Maybe the two voters are right about DTMaster and he is one of the scum but the case that he's scum because he was aggressive in bandwagonning day one on a couple players isn't particularly a strong case for him being scummy. Bandwagons day one are a good way to get reactions. I need to look at again at what exactly happened but from memory I don't find Vendelwalker's case overly strong at this time.

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Post Post #162 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:36 pm

Post by Concerned »

Zorblag wrote: While I'm doing that I'd like Concerned to explain why he's voting for DTMaster without giving any reasons
In time.
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Post Post #163 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:51 pm

Post by cruelty »

Concerned wrote:
Zorblag wrote: While I'm doing that I'd like Concerned to explain why he's voting for DTMaster without giving any reasons
In time.
How about now?

Remember, brothernature got lynched for a foolish, poorly explained vote (and terrible play).
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Post Post #164 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:45 pm

Post by Zorblag »

@Concerned, I don't know why you'd be playing that coy but OK, you've got experience with the game elsewhere I'll let you run with it a bit but I'll make it clear right now that I'm not going to be happy with a quick lynch today.

@everyone, So here's what I see. We know that we're in a game with no more town power roles, a roleblocker and a goon. The obvious consequence (which I'll say anyhow as it's a newbie game) is that if anyone tries to claim a power role from here on out they're lying and we lynch them. The less obvious consequence is that we know exactly which scenario we're in on day two (which is unusual) and we might be able to use that. On day one the scum had a strong reason not to let the roleblocker get lynched; a lone goon potentially (and in this case it would have been) up against a cop and a doc is in very bad shape. Defensive plays no day one actually get a bit scummier than they normally would have been due to that. The biggest change actually kicks in when we lynch scum. If we lynch the roleblocker anyone defending them early is suspect. If it's a goon anyone they defended early is suspect.

The game also has way too much lurking. Far_Cry was the biggest offender there (in particular because he was an IC and the IC code of conduct specifically addresses lurking as something we can't do.) Ezekial gave us even less to work with and the newbie card won't cut it from here on out. We need to see activity and opinions from him so that we can work on getting some sort of read. Lizzy Tsoi is excused for only posting twice because she joined the game fairly soon before the debacle of a lynch that we ended up with. I liked the post content she gave us and look forward to seeing more.

Those that were active seem to be a fairly knowledgeable group for a newbie game. Vendelwalker seemed to push harder than I might expect for a DTMaster/Lizzy Tsoi scum team yesterday and has now switched over to DTMaster/cruelty for reasons that don't particularly sway me. In general I don't like to spend too much effort putting together scum teams early in the game as it tends to work with alot of assumptions. It's also got the danger of setting up chain lynches rather than letting each decision be made with as open a view of the facts as possible.

Concerned seems to have paid attention to everyone who was active and, although he's clearly used to a different terminology, I don't think that the doc/cop confusion is that troubling. I like that cruelty tried to stir things up a bit when the game stagnated and how he reacted when Geekalicious responded to his vote. I don't have any trouble offhand with cruelty's brothernature vote when he cast it. DTMaster also does a good job of paying attention to those that were posting. Again I don't really have an issue with how he cast his brothernature vote.

Normally the day one lynch gives a fair amount of information to work with. In this case we're missing a fair amount of it. With the self vote brothernature took away one piece of information about who was on and off the wagon that we could have looked at today. There was also fairly little time between his claim and when the wagon ended and we didn't get to judge the reactions of over half the town to it. I don't blame anyone for voting him as they did; were I around I would have voted for him towards the end as well.

I guess, on the whole, I'm currently most suspicious of Ezekial (because I don't have any reason at all not to be) and Vendelwalker because of how he's leaning on pairings more than I care for. What we need to do today is get more conversation and make sure that we avoid the sort of play we got from brothernature yesterday. If anyone's got any questions for me they should feel free to ask them. I'm going to do some more mulling over of things and then I'll probably have some questions and perhaps a vote tomorrow.

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Post Post #165 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:47 pm

Post by brothernature »

Also, Bah!
You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone
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Post Post #166 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:52 pm

Post by cruelty »

brothernature wrote:
Concerned wrote:Blah, I can't even explain the depths of my annoyance with brothernature...
Don't worry, I'm none to fond of you either. Also, Bah!
stop posting in here
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Post Post #167 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:08 pm

Post by cruelty »

Zorblag wrote: @everyone, So here's what I see. We know that we're in a game with no more town power roles, a roleblocker and a goon. The obvious consequence (which I'll say anyhow as it's a newbie game) is that if anyone tries to claim a power role from here on out they're lying and we lynch them. T

Sorry I'm not following here; the fact that we had a cop means there was two possible setups, one with the cop/doc and mafia roleblocker, and one with the cop vs two goons. I'm either misunderstanding what you said or you're wrong. Not trying to read anything into it, but we should all be clear on this.



@VW, going over your post again.
VW wrote:I regret nothing. He was firing off scumtells like candy from a Pez dispenser. (Acting emotional, claiming to be cop without finding scum first, claiming it in such a way that you couldn't decide if he was serious or just bullshitting us, challenging everyone - and me directly - to claim cop which would make a person a night-kill target, voting on himself when bandwagoned to gain sympathy. He just wasn't playing pro-town eventually, he was being chaotic.) However, that was toward the end, and it doesn't justify the hunt that was started against him.

Now that it has been proven that he was town, I believe it has given us an opportunity for a town win. I am looking at the two persons who started and first bandwagoned this hunt, and those two were cruelty and DTMaster. I believe that we have one or two Mafia there.

Look at me all you like. My vote was valid, and you were the one that hammered.


I find it very, very interesting that you can justify your vote by him being anti-town towards the end of the day (which is an accurate summation, for the record), but my vote is suspicious because it started the wagon. Did you actually read what brothernature was saying around the time I made my vote, or are you just throwing wild speculation out there in the hope that it'll stick?



@Concerned that's the third vote you've made without sufficient reasoning.
Concerned wrote:/UNVOTE VENDELWALKER

/VOTE CRUELTY

I'm still waiting to here from you as to why my post made you uneasy Wink.
Concerned wrote:Vote : brothernature

Everyone's too afraid to be the third vote on the wagon. When everyone knows the scumtells they lose their meaning.
Concerned wrote:For now
VOTE : DTMaster

Time to talk.
I want you to explain why you voted DTMaster.
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Post Post #168 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:12 pm

Post by Zorblag »

Geekalicious was our doctor. We've now lost both the doctor and the cop. It's interesting that you hadn't noticed that. If it's genuine (and my gut says it probably is) then I suspect I think it makes you look slightly good. I'll think about that.

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Post Post #169 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:13 pm

Post by DTMaster »

@Town

Sorry was V/LA and such. School takes precedence over this game but when I read the claim and wagon that came afterward I face palmed at the speed of the wagon and brother endorsing his self lynch as cop.

That is poor town play. Sigh. Town PR 101. Do not off yourself like that. A cop = scum breaking role. Especially when geek flipped doctor and we confirmed the F11 setup of

1 goon and 1 rber, 1 cop, and 1 doc, and rest townies.

If I was here protip for the town:

All power role claims should be dealt with day 2 onwards. Under no condition should anyone maintain their vote on a PR.
I was gone so I couldn't unvote.

K now for the game.

I'm going to post it in the next post to break things up reading wise.
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Post Post #170 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:29 pm

Post by cruelty »

Zorblag wrote:Geekalicious was our doctor. We've now lost both the doctor and the cop. It's interesting that you hadn't noticed that. If it's genuine (and my gut says it probably is) then I suspect I think it makes you look slightly good. I'll think about that.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Oh, haha. I'm a dumbass. Didn't read the mod post closely.
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Post Post #171 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:49 pm

Post by DTMaster »

@Brother
You are dead but you should still be following this game. Since I had to go V/LA I'll answer you anyways.
Brother wrote:What? You want me to threaten them with L-4 or L-3? Oooooo, so scary. I'm only 3 votes away from being lynched. What ever shall I do? That doesn't really put pressure on a person. Like I said, I don't like moving my vote around much. Makes me look all Wishy Washy. I prefer to only unvote when I'm about to switch it to some one else.
This in itself is scummy pre and post cop flip. You are saying that the only way you can motivate people is through bandwagon. While yes this is day 1 and action/reaction play is strong in itself bandwagon hopping and voting isn't your only tool to play this game. You can post you know, questions?

@Vendel
87: You do realize you could have just asked my why I didn't answer your post. I missed it when I did my reread but I swear that I answered it. Guess that is a DTM mistake here.

But in reference to your attack on me, there isn't much to say other then it's a weak line of attack in general. Trying to say I'm scummy because I find someone else's case weak and false means I'm scummy? It's not scummy if you think a case is wrong, or if you think someone is townie at the time.

In fact that is the whole point of discussion over cases, you agree and disagree. So your argument is pretty weak there.

91: You do know that you are establishing a link between Concerned and yourself here. You are attacking all the people who seemed to offend you or concerned in this game at this point. Oh Irony.

104: Its false to say all defenses are scummy, but unwarranted or unsupported defenses are. If you can't prove that x person is town or if y person is scummy, then your defense falls flat and you yourself are scummy.

154: I have a gazillion issues with your arguments.

1. Cruelty and myself voted brother for his scummy play. Note that this is before I went VLA and before brother's cop claim.

I attacked brother on page 4 with:
DTMaster wrote:Brother
68: That's a poor excuse to not pressure other people. You said geek passed your reaction test, I find your lack of unvoting faulty and would like you to explain:

Do you think geek is scummy? Why or why not? If he is scummy then why did you say
Brother wrote: reactions. I wanted to see if you'd freak out and overreact. Obviously, you didn't, and
handled the situation as a townie most likely would.
Unvote

Vote Brothernature


I also find it funny you ignore Concerned on his vote on post 84.


2. The irony must not have dawned on you that you are accusing me of being scummy for attacking brother pre-claim because I felt his posts were antitown/scummy and fake scum hunting. You fail to address the content in my posts and misrepresent me as pushing for a brother lynch and finally you say you are cleared because brother is scummy.

You hammered the claimed cop who did not have a counter claim against him.


@Concerned
115: If I was there I would say SCUMMY PLAY: YOU ARE JUSTIFYING LYNCHING THE UN COUNTER CLAIMED COP. I CAPS THIS BECAUSE IT'S A GIANT RED FLAG OF SCUM.

But brother killed this argument when he self voted. :<

@Troll
Welcome!

Comments.

1. Good general comments but as a personal philosophy, all PRs should be dealt with day 2 onwards. Night kills become a tool of role confirmation of PRs if there wasn't a doctor, and if there was we could have avoided a NK. Unless the scum team is willing to setup a doc/cop false claim setup but with the role reveals from last night it is obvious this is out of the question.

There are other methods scum could have acted kill, some involves placing WIFOM seeds into the town which I consider a more advanced move that SEs and ICs would have more experience in.
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Post Post #172 (ISO) » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:30 pm

Post by Lizzy Tsoi »

Welcome, Zor :)

VW - cruelty's & DTMaster's votes for brothernature were quite valid given his behavior around that point of the game. I'm a little concerned now that you're using a large amount of crap-logic regarding the NK and on why Concerned did not deserve suspicions.

Concerned - you say you hesitate to do anything rash yet you add a vote for DTMaster. IGMEOY. Your plays so far have been full of contradictions and I'm still unsure on the reason for that.

I find geekalicious's last few posts extremely interesting.
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Post Post #173 (ISO) » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:30 am

Post by Vendelwalker »

DTMaster wrote:I have a gazillion issues with your arguments.
Of course you say that, whatever else? I kept noting many times that the case against brothernature was weak, which was obvious. I was right in that, and you were wrong. That is two hunts on weak premises that you fueled from early on in day one. I see a pattern there. Your best defense now is to simply discard it with a diplomatic tone.

It is too bad that the scum-induced focus was so strong on brothernature for so long, justified mostly by that his play was annoying and by "crap logic" to borrow Lizzy's expression. It efficiently muted any other possible discussion. Scum, well played. In the end brothernature had to go simply to show what his accusers were up to, and because brothernature on that last evening put the focus even more strongly on himself.

@Cruelty
You hold it against me that I hammered? I was thinking to myself, whoever is scum will probably bring up hammering to cast doubt on me, it is a classic. At the surface it seems like a good standard suspicion: whoever hammers is suspect the next day, and so on. That seems to be an often used argument, when I look at other games here, so it would seem valid to use. However, there was no other thing to do than to see if brothernature was scum or not in the end, to get that whole hunt out of the way. Which is obvious.

And before you mention hammering again, I would bring up the detail that I was the ONLY one to oppose lynching brothernature, for days. Everyone else was either on his case or kept silent and let the hunt proceed. I could have jumped on that bandwagon at any time and no one would have thought it anything but natural; in fact, you, Cruelty, suggested that I was suspect for NOT doing so. I was possibly defending a scum buddy, you said. Hm. Anything to get brothernature hanged. Should we now move from me being suspect for defending brothernature when there was good reason to do so, to me being suspect for finally getting rid of him when there was good reason to do so?



(Note for those who might have missed it, in particular newcomers: all posts 109-149, the last posts on Day 1, took place in the same evening. As a sidenote to that, in some places you see how someone started writing a post and then had to write another one, because while the first post was being written several other had been posted by other players. Which is not so important, but some parts of the discussion look a bit odd if you don't consider this.)
And we are here, as on a darkling plain
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight
Where ignorant armies clash by night
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Post Post #174 (ISO) » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:04 am

Post by Zorblag »

@DTMaster, your stance on day one PR claims is too universal I think, but I'd rather talk about it after the game as right now it's more likely to distract than help I think. I'm fine if you want to use it as a scum tell of whatever strength you think it is for your own calculations but as I said earlier I don't consider anyone that was on that brothernature lynch at the end of the day yesterday to be scummy because of being part of the lynch.

@Vendelwalker, it's unusual for day one cases to be particularly strong and town end up on the wrong bandwagons all the time (there are only two scum in the game; a fiver person lynch day one has to include at least 3 town.) I'm also not entirely sure why you're arguing that brothernature shouldn't have had a bandwagon on him when by his own admission he was drawing attention to himself in a way that might look scummy to try to start discussion. That brothernature ended up being town in the end doesn't make the votes on him necessarily scummy. Especially not when they were much more reasonable than I think you're making them out to be.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

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