Newbie 844 - Game Over (Scum Win)

[Annachie]

I'll be voting Pyro on deadline unless the bandwagon balance shifts to someone else.

Why?

1: You don't want to be seen as the hammer, a scummy spot.
2: You don't want Pyro lynched and are trying to avoid someone else placing the 5th vote so that when you 'convienently' forget to vote we get a no-lynch instead.
3: You are trying some weird psych thing to get the votes to shift.

[hitogoroshi]

What?

1. If I didn't want to be seen as the hammer I bloody well wouldn't say "I intend to hammer!"
2. This one could potentially happen, though I'd hope someone else on the town would catch me if I did that.
3. If I wanted to do that, I'd prime by at least suggesting someone else's name in my post. If I wanted the votes to shift declaring that I would hammer Pyro would be about one of the worst things I could do.

[hitogoroshi]

Well, here we are.

Vote: Pyrogen

[HackerHuck]

We should have been a little more forceful in requesting a claim, but I hope that Pyro would have had the common sense to claim if he were a power role. In the future, I hope that everyone knows that it's better for a power role to claim and risk an NK than it is to be a certain lynch.

There is usually nothing wrong with posting between the lynching vote and the mod locking the thread, so long as you don't do anything you wouldn't have done during the day.

[startransmission]

I agree that a role claim should have been pressed more, but the erratic nature of Pyros play and the impending deadline made the odds of a real claim pretty low.

Pyros last two posts are the most townie things he's posted. He borders on an appeal of emotion here and there, and I'm happy with my vote. I just wish he had started to post from the heart earlier.

[starkmoon]

Pyrogen (townie) is lynched

It is now Night 1.

All night choices to me (and Vel) by PM within 72 hours.

[starkmoon]

fhqwhgads (townie) is killed

Kill-kill replaces just me

with 7 alive it is 4 to lynch.

Kill-kill
DarthRandal1138
HackerHuck
Annachie
xvart
hitogoroshi
startransmission

[Kill-kill]

Hey guys, rereading. Won't be able to get anything up tomorrow, but I should have some thoughts up within a week. This is my 4th game on Mafiascum, first replacing in. I have very scummy-seeming town play--it's something I am really trying to work on. Anyway, hi to all, and I should have some posts with content soon.

[Kill-kill]

First read through done, and brief thoughts.

At around Page 2/3, I was certain that DarthRandal would be pushing the Pyro lynch. His Iso 8 really struck me as off. I don't think the case against Pyro was as strong as he made it out to be, and I was pretty sure he was scum trying to start a mislynch bandwagon. His activity dropped off, but he did cast the first vote on the eventual mislynch. He is a pretty big blip on my scumdar, but not even close to the front runner:

Annachie.

I really don't like how he decided he had nailed both scum right off the bat, despite a complete and total lack of convincing evidence. But I REALLY don't like how he hopped on the Pyro bandwagon despite sticking to his guns about Just me ("Just" me now, I suppose) and Dondero/HackerHuck. More coming on this later, I am off to bed soon.

A minor ping on the scumdar goes out to xvart--his end of the day play seemed to be pretty much cheerleading the lynch.

[Annachie]

I have very scummy-seeming town play--

Que? Honestly?

I'm almost speachless.

but not even close to the front runner:

Annachie.

Don't get me wrong, I still want to see Justme[kill-kill]/Dondero[HackerHuck] resolved but I don't see that happening this "day", and the ghist of my arguements is a reasoned/targeted lynch is better than a no-lynch.

Jeez fhqwhgads gets mafia ganked, the guy who had voted for me, and then you launch a vote on me right away, AFTER saying that your normal play seems scummy.

What is this, you're going to vote for me before I log in and press you on anything?

vote kill-kill

[hitogoroshi]

Kill-kill, link us to a game where you were town, please.

Anna, attacking your attacker is hardly helpful. As a matter of fact, he did NOT vote for you; he merely posted a single critical paragraph regarding your actions. Regardless of your alignment, your response here was paranoid and extremely anti-town. Especially this line:

What is this, you're going to vote for me before I log in and press you on anything?

Beyond the fact that paranoia (here, the fact that you assumed he cast a vote) is, in my books, a scum tell, this is a messed up values system. Your statement here could be translated as: "You're going to vote me before I can attack you?" Scum defend themselves by attacking their attackers, because they don't care who gets lynched. It's not an activity townies should engage in.

[HackerHuck]

I've got to read up on another game, so this is going to be a quick post.

First -

FoS

on Annachie for the quick day 2 vote.

I'm just going to go down the obvious road and look at the final tally of votes. Here's who was on the Pyrogen wagon at the end:

xvart, startransmission, DarthRandal1138, Annachie, Hitogoroshi

A good start to the day is to dissect this list and look for the scum on it. Odds are good that scum are on this wagon. It's not a given, but it's a good place to start on day 2. It's of course easy for me to say that scum are most likely on this wagon, because I know it to be the case. Since Just Me/Kill Kill was MIA for most of day one and the others who didn't vote Pyro are dead, I'm going to focus my energy on analysing the wagon right now.

Hitogoroshi's hammer looks a bit scummy, but there are some mitigating factors. He was egged on by Annachie and we were approaching deadline, so it's a little harder to read.

Annachie's last post is also quite scummy at first glance, but it's hard to buy that scum would be so bold with the deadline coming closely. I think it's pretty likely that he and Hito aren't a scumpair.

What about xvart? He was the first vote on this wagon. Does that make his "cheerleading" less scummy? It's interesting to note that he had a relatively soft reason for voting Pyrogen - "...You are either scum or you are town with antitown behavior; neither of which I can stand for." That vote was also there for a long time.

startransmission's vote is a little scummy. He's either voting for Pyro because of what xvart said or because he wanted to add a little pressure. Erratic is about the only other reason I get from his posts, but's he's pretty confident about leaving his vote there.

Darth also has his flaws. He votes Pyro right off the bat on the basis of his odd vote-ranking method. His unvote seems reasonable, but his 'pressure vote' on Donder (me) seems off. Being in the third position and using weak reasoning is pretty scummy, but I think that he actually supported his vote pretty well. It's a little disheartening that he hadn't posted after his vote, but I'd still say that he's probably town.

These are just my first impressions, looking only at these peoples' posts in isolation. I'll do a reread later where I look at things in context to see what pops out.

[hitogoroshi]

Hitogoroshi's hammer looks a bit scummy, but there are some mitigating factors. He was egged on by Annachie and we were approaching deadline, so it's a little harder to read.

Not the first. To be quite frank, I tend to be overly conservative with my vote (trying to be a bit more free with it, but it's a work in progress) and quite frankly I'm not going to commit a hammer vote because I'm 'egged on' unless I have an extremely strong town read on the person requesting it. It was the second. The numbers simply conspire against us if we don't lynch someone. As I said before, I'll really only support a D1 no-lynch if the town ends up bandwagoning an un-CC'ed power role.
More importantly, when I said I would hammer at deadline, it would be incredibly anti-town for me to do otherwise, unless Pyro claimed a town PR.

[Annachie]

Since people seem to have a thing for Metagaming.

From my first, and until this game only, mafia game.

http://www.ausbowl.com/index.php?name=F ... 25&start=0

Day 2: Second vote, with a few hours
Day 3: first vote, within 40 minutes.
Day 4: First vote, within 30 minutes
Day 5: Second vote, 12 hours
Day 6: First vote, within 30 minutes


If you want to talk meta gaming and such, ie: asking Kill-Kill about his past games, then look at mine.
After day 1, always first or second to vote, and always early.

Oh, and I called Hitorogoshi on dclaring his voting intentions but not actually casting the vote.

[hitogoroshi]

Annachie, that's why I said 'regardless of alignment.' I'm not saying that it's a clear scumtell, I'm saying that it's anti-town behavior and you should stop it. :/

And my simple reason for doing such is conversation purposes. Why cut the game off when I could hammer five hours late? I knew I would be online in time to hammer, but since no one in the game did (and would perhaps want to hammer earlier) it only makes sense to broadcast such. It also gave one more clear signal of "Pyro, this is zero-hour, claim if you're a PR."

[starkmoon]

Kill-kill 1 Annachie
DarthRandal1138
HackerHuck
Annachie
xvart
hitogoroshi
startransmission

Notvoting

Kill-kill
DarthRandal1138
HackerHuck
xvart
hitogoroshi
startransmission

[xvart]

unless Pyro claimed a town PR.

Of course there would be no way to prove if he was a power role since there had been no night actions, unless someone counter claimed, but then again, we wouldn't be able to prove either way; and, one of them would be scum so we could just lynch them both.

I have very scummy-seeming town play--it's something I am really trying to work on. Anyway, hi to all, and I should have some posts with content soon.

Um... okay? So when you act like scum we shouldn't think you are scum? It's just normal town play? How about if you act town? Does that mean you are scum? Seems a little strange that you are setting yourself up to behave anyway you wish only to tell us later, when you get questioned on your actions, that you already told us that you behave like scum.

Kill-kill, link us to a game where you were town, please.

Anna, attacking your attacker is hardly helpful. As a matter of fact, he did NOT vote for you; he merely posted a single critical paragraph regarding your actions. Regardless of your alignment, your response here was paranoid and extremely anti-town. Especially this line:

What is this, you're going to vote for me before I log in and press you on anything?

Beyond the fact that paranoia (here, the fact that you assumed he cast a vote) is, in my books, a scum tell, this is a messed up values system. Your statement here could be translated as: "You're going to vote me before I can attack you?" Scum defend themselves by attacking their attackers, because they don't care who gets lynched. It's not an activity townies should engage in.

I agree with everything in this post.

A minor ping on the scumdar goes out to xvart--his end of the day play seemed to be pretty much cheerleading the lynch.

Please show me where I was cheerleading the lynch? Maybe I don't understand the term "cheerleading" in the context of a mafia game.

What about xvart? He was the first vote on this wagon. Does that make his "cheerleading" less scummy? It's interesting to note that he had a relatively soft reason for voting Pyrogen - "...You are either scum or you are town with antitown behavior; neither of which I can stand for." That vote was also there for a long time.

I feel that my justification for wanting to lynch Pyrogen. Even though he wasn't scum I am glad he is gone because he was a huge distraction, throwing scum behavior all over the place, allowing the mafia to just hide in the background and poke and prod here and there. And, I hardly believe that lynching someone who is either scum or anti-town is a "soft" reason.

Even Pyrogen didn't think I was behaving scummy after coming after him, since he thought I was the least suspicious and never altered his opinion of me:

From least suspicious to most:

xvart: Town, most likely

xvart.

[Kill-kill]

Kill-kill, link us to a game where you were town, please.

Can I link to games in which I am dead, but the game itself is not over, or is that "discussing an on-going game"? If not, then my only completed game is one I lurked much more than I would have liked.

Um... okay? So when you act like scum we shouldn't think you are scum? It's just normal town play? How about if you act town? Does that mean you are scum? Seems a little strange that you are setting yourself up to behave anyway you wish only to tell us later, when you get questioned on your actions, that you already told us that you behave like scum.

That was not how it was intended. To explain more fully, I am new to the hyper-analytical style of this site, where I played before was much, much more casual. As such, I haven't (at least in my previous games) known how to play well as town, and apparently seemed very scummy. I figured I should get that out in the open, perhaps I was wrong. But, would you rather I say it when I first come in, or when I am pressured? Which of the two would be more pro-town?

Please show me where I was cheerleading the lynch? Maybe I don't understand the term "cheerleading" in the context of a mafia game.

Are you still happy with your vote if it leads to a no-lynch?

Is there a particular reason you don't want Pyrogen lynched (since he is leading)? What are your justifications for believing that Pyrogen is town. Can you agree that he has acted scummy?

These are the kind of things I meant. To be honest, I remembered there being more than there actually were. Though looking back, what changed from

At this point, while I'm still voting for Pyro, I believe I will probably unvote him because it doesn't seem like the right vote to me anymore.

Post 195

To

In summary, I think there is an interesting relationship between Pyrogen and Annachie, and would be satisfied lynching either one. If we do not end up lynching either one, I hope that we investigate them further because I suspect at least one of them is mafia.

Post 205

[DarthRandal1138]

(...)I was pretty sure he was scum trying to start a mislynch bandwagon. His activity dropped off,

but he did cast the first vote

on the eventual mislynch.

(Emphasis mine)


Umm, I was the *third* vote on Pyro. xvart voted Pyro here, way back on page 5, and startransmission voted here, 59 posts later. I didn't place my vote for another 38 posts, after which Annachie votes nine posts later, followed by hitogoroshi's hammer after another 12 posts.

[Annachie]

lol. I get pegged for lurking for talking about the whole lynch/nolynch/random lynch thing, then get done for following it.

Simply put, we need to end each day with a reasoned lynch. At a stretch, a no-lynch will do but worst of all is the random lynch.

I decided that, despite my reservations, a reasoned lynch was better than a no-lynch, that xvart's reasoning was reasonable, and the Pyro lynch had a good chance of happening.

Oh, and I am sticking to my guns on Just Me/Killa-Killa, hence the vote.

xvrt: Vote: Pyrogen
xvart: Unvote: Pyrogen
Just Me: vote: pyrogen
DarthRandal1138: Vote: Pyrogen
DarthRandal1138: Unvote Pyrogen
xvart: Vote: Pyrogen
Startransmission vote: Pyrogen
Dondero --- Replaced
DarthRandal1138: Vote: Pyrogen
Annachie: Vote Pyrogen
Hitorogoshi vote: Pyrogen

Cut down to the Pyro relevent parts.
Darth, why did you ignore your original vote on Pyro in your summation?

[startransmission]

Hey, had internet issues for last couple of days, will post soon.

[xvart]

Though looking back, what changed from

At this point, while I'm still voting for Pyro, I believe I will probably unvote him because it doesn't seem like the right vote to me anymore.

Post 195

To

In summary, I think there is an interesting relationship between Pyrogen and Annachie, and would be satisfied lynching either one. If we do not end up lynching either one, I hope that we investigate them further because I suspect at least one of them is mafia.

Post 205

Nothing changed, really; I was suspicious of both of them in the first post (and before) and the same was true in the last post. The reason I never unvoted Pyrogen was basically because of this post:

Alright, we only have, what, 3 days? I don't think we'll get anybody.

I'm going with my gut and voting for the IC.

/vote fhqwhgads

He's cautious and barely scumhunting at all (besides me and Annachie), instead addressing only minor issues. This is my reason for the vote.

Comments?

That post, as others also pointed out, had scumy-ness written all over it. After that, I don't think I would've changed my vote unless we were looking at a no lynch.

Maybe I did get a little tunnel visioned on Pyrogen, but I found it difficult to focus anywhere else, with the so called "scumdar" going off every post.

startransmission

- what do you think of the fhqwhgads NK?

Annachie

- who do you think is connected to Pyrogen, and do you think mafia were on the bandwagon?

DarthRandall

- What do you think about KillKill's "all scum all the time" play style?

xvart.

[DarthRandal1138]

Darth, why did you ignore your original vote on Pyro in your summation?

For the same reason I ignored xvart and just me's initial votes for Pyro; we had all unvoted. I was responding to Kill-kill's suggestion that I was the first vote "on the wagon," which I took to mean "the sequence of votes that led to Pyro's lynch." At any rate, even accounting for that, I *still* wasn't the first vote on Pyro.

Can I link to games in which I am dead, but the game itself is not over, or is that "discussing an on-going game"?

I

believe

that's considered kosher, but *please* don't take my word for it. We may want to wait on Word of Mod on that, but I *would* still like a link to your completed game, as well as a link to a "town" game once you get the go-ahead.

DarthRandal - What do you think about KillKill's "all scum all the time" play style?

Fixed it for ya; one "ell" please.

As I said above, I'd *really* like to see an example of his playstyle as town before making final judgment, but as of now, I find the statement on the scummy side. It seems like a nice way to weasel out of getting called on something later: "Nono, remember? I told you guys I act scummy as town, yeah?"

[hitogoroshi]

Can I link to games in which I am dead, but the game itself is not over, or is that "discussing an on-going game"?

I

believe

that's considered kosher, but *please* don't take my word for it. We may want to wait on Word of Mod on that, but I *would* still like a link to your completed game, as well as a link to a "town" game once you get the go-ahead.

Actually I think it's non-kosher. As far as I know the rule is a flat, "No linking to current games" edict.

DarthRandal - What do you think about KillKill's "all scum all the time" play style?

(I'm going to answer this question too!)

Didn't see a problem with it at first, but the fact he's only completed one game as town worries me. Players who have to slip that in usually do so after being mis-lynched multiple times while legitimately scumhunting. But after a scant few games? I'd really like to hear the rationale for this one.

[Kill-kill]

Didn't see a problem with it at first, but the fact he's only completed one game as town worries me. Players who have to slip that in usually do so after being mis-lynched multiple times while legitimately scumhunting. But after a scant few games? I'd really like to hear the rationale for this one.

Actually, the best example just ended. viewtopic.php?t=12068&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0 -- Mislynched day two after a L-1 wagon Day one was eventually derailed.