Mini 872: Mafia in Belgrove - That's All Folks

[Ectomancer]

Vote: Ectomancer.

%$#@, I've wanted to do that for such a long time.

*waves to Walrus Helmet*

I'm internet famous?

[Ectomancer]

Obviously. Also, you should random-vote.

But I don't feel that you followed your own advice. Please provide me some background on your own vote choice.

[Ectomancer]

no thanks, random voting is kinda silly

As opposed to...what?

[Ectomancer]

RVS is a tried and true method of starting the game, and while you can boast its merits, there are other and no less useful methods of beginning a game. Whether it is 'pro-town' to participate or 'anti-town' to refuse depends upon the course that the player has chosen apart from an RVS, which takes us to Darkstrike, whose actions lack the conviction of his words.
If you do not approve of the RVS and instead prefer your described method of asking questions, why did you not propose it and instead allow the game to progress to the utterly predictable RVS?

This is your attempt at avoiding an RVS?

Hi everyone!

[Ectomancer]

Wagon on Owen, please.

He deserves one.

vote Owen

[Ectomancer]

Maybe its because NaNoWriMo is making me hyper aware of literary ploys that the grandiosity of Darkstrike's reply induced a mental groan as I read it. It's like pandering laced with haughtiness, and then at the end, "Oh yes, my questions, you may answer them". Ha

30ish, neither, none, wagons R good

[Ectomancer]

Ahh the wounded feelings now.

Your continued elaboration on the virtues or otherwise of an RVS is mere fluff.

This comment is just a face saver:

I knew that someone would ask me to vote, then ask for an alternative. It generated discussion. It generated reactions. Both are useful.

How about, "I forgot", or "I hadn't had a chance to ask them yet" instead of lame excuses to make yourself look better?

Now, I can feel your feelings being hurt, so don't run off. Its not personal. My criticism has nothing to do with the style, its substance. The bottom line is, I need you telling a straight truth, not worrying about whether you look good or not. It means if you make a mistake, own up to it. Don't waste space trying to save face.


@crypto - if you see what I see would you believe Netapolis's offered defense to be pro-town or covering?

[Ectomancer]

I stand corrected. I dont object to the style when it has substance, but if lacking substance is the style, then indeed I object on that basis.

Your second criticism is completely untrue. I knew when I wrote my first post that people would ask for a random vote, I knew that they would ask for an alternative method when I refused. I'm not wasting space, but telling the truth.

Riiight. You wrote "Hi everyone" with the nefarious designs of having someone ask you why you didn't random vote and that was the mastermindful plot to kick off this game without an RVS.

*psycho note to self - Darkstrike will twist events or invent motives in order to make himself appear in the best light possible. Not scummy, but a personality quirk he is unlikely to be broken of.

Thanks crypto, I think that gives me an objective viewpoint to frame his comment in. My thought was pro-town, but you have me deciding that objectively, it is just as likely neutral.

[Ectomancer]

Ahem? "Blindingly suspicious" to not want to lynch somebody because they sound pompous or their writing style is a bit weird? I think that's a bit overstating your case, Ectomancer. If U N Owen gives us more to work with to claim he is scum, I'll be right there with you voting for him - I just think that this is an incredibly weak case that I would feel ashamed to support.


That being said, I should probably note that I'm a law student. I tend not to accuse someone of being scummy unless I have a pretty good reason for it. Gut and posting style don't do that for me - failures of logic, bad arguments and distracting comments do.

Hi, being a law student you should know to ascribe phrases you quote to their appropriate speaker. "Blindingly suspicious" is not a phrase from Ectomancer, and in fact where you are concerned, the statement that

can

be ascribed to Ectomancer has the complete opposite assessment.

You can't edit your post, but you can retract it and try again.

[Ectomancer]

Because I'm mafia

trying

to look scummy with an unexplained vote switch.

Or, because [reason reserved].

So would you characterize your action as moving away from Owen, or moving towards Malpascp?

[Ectomancer]

You don't have to justify a vote during the RVS

unless you imply that there is a serious reason for your vote.

Or if you're just hopping on a bandwagon. Which you are doing.

Alright, now this is where I get irritated.

There is no Random Vote Stage in mafia

. There may be a portion near the beginning where people random vote to get things started, but there certainly isn't a Stage as if it were the same as Day or Night which indeed are Stages of the game.
We are long past the portion of the game where we need to do something otherwise entirely useless in order to get the game to progress, and if you want to argue about some theoretical line where he could be randomly voting, that time was

over

when he cast his first vote. "Random" certainly doesn't apply when a player makes a deliberate decision to remove their vote from one player and place it on another.

I'm going to

unvote, vote Netopalis

for obstruction. Had he a true objection, perhaps not, but by post 69 of the game, using rvs as a weapon of defense of another player looks like he wanted to object and had to reach back to find anything he could use. I'm not suggesting buddying here either, just an attempt at creating divisions.

[Ectomancer]

unvote

Sorry, I missed that the initial rvs defense was by afatchic, who in the same post both offers a lurker offense as motivation and then says in rvs you don't need to justify anything.
Since he just got here and apparently is an RVS baby (but I didnt get my chance to RVS! Waaaa!) I'm not going to vote him over it, though he does get the rare igmeoy because he did indeed offer defense of Crypto

[Ectomancer]

I feel my focus waning.

Crypto is claiming to have been fishing for reactions, and that is a tried and true method. What he is complaining about, and I understand, is that he was looking for reactions from malpascp and by jumping in as you all did, it disturbed the pristine environment by tainting it with your own reactions first.

For me, you also disturbed the pristine environment that I had for observing Crypto and his straight reactions to Malpascp's response.

So, let it be no surprise that I will find my next vote on members of that wagon, and no longer being on it will not spare you. I'll be analyzing. If there is anything that you want to clarify about your positions on that wagon, feel free to do it now before the grilling begins.

[Ectomancer]

You may replace you with ya'll or you all if you prefer.

[Ectomancer]

So malpascp is an omgus that is really watered down because Crypto didnt provide a reason and doesnt look all that omgussy.
Owen looks more like omgus to me to be quite honest, and it comes at the perfect opportunity to lend momentum to the wagon.
Netopalis abandoned the wagon in a manner that I felt was pretty weak. I was also disappointed that he jumped off the first wagon with momentum and it felt due to pressure, not because of a change of mind.

Im wrong. I thought I would be ready to vote but I'm not yet. Net was my front runner, but I just dont think he is scummy at this point. Owen, if playing in character, needs a different type of look too. Hohum.

[Ectomancer]

Actually, reading your response, it is apparent that I was the one being unclear.

Leaving Crypto's wagon was the one I thought was a rather weak hop off, and it was Crypto's wagon that I felt was the first to have momentum. Rather than a lackluster unvote, I would have liked to see you wait to see what else developed. In this case, I'm criticizing you for quashing an opportunity to advance the game. I do appreciate that you acted when your view changed though.

[Ectomancer]

Mr. Jester: You are not following me. You FoS'd someone with your vote still in its random place. Now you have unvoted the random placement. Why did you not simply move your vote in the first place? As it stands, you have an FoS on the player you described as scummy, and a vote in limbo after belatedly removing it.

Are you avoiding the Owen wagon? What do you hope to achieve with your FoS? and again, for clarity: Why did you not simply move your vote in the first place?

Why haven't I voted for Owen?

Because he hasn't convinced me that he is scum yet, but he is border lining. He is playing that thin line between scum and poor arguments.

Am I avoiding the Owen Wagon?

No.

What do I hope to gain with my FoS?

Answers and hopefully more insight into whether he is really scum or just makes poor arguments.

We need to see what he does next.

He hasn't convinced you yet hey? Perhaps he just isn't trying hard enough
The original fos didn't flag my attention, but this response is so much worse in its phrasings. It looks like a warning to a buddy.

*note to self - possible Owen and Jester connection. Only for review should one turn up scum later.

[Ectomancer]

Ah, I see. Yeah, I'm still extremely tempted to vote Crypto, as I find his play very scummy, but I wanted to reward behavior which explains actions by unvoting to encourage others to explain their play as well. I try to play the game in an orderly and organized fashion, and I find players who don't explain themselves to be extremely hard to read. They also usually tend to be scum. Like I said, though...Crypto is still high on my list.

Until maybe just last game this would have gotten a vote from me.
Ye gods Neto, don't you even know a scummy statement when you make one? If you find his play very scummy, then why in hell did you unvote? Because you want to encourage some mini-meta activity in this game? That is not only a poor reason, but a misguided one as well. We're trying to find scum here, not get everyone to open up to the group, yeesh. If you think you found one more likely to be scum than the others, squuuueeeeze.
Now I'm even more irritated now that you prematurely unvoted before we got a good wagon to wrangle over...

[Ectomancer]

Whoa, how did it go from this:

Ah, I see. Yeah, I'm still extremely tempted to vote Crypto, as I find his play very scummy, but I wanted to reward behavior which explains actions by unvoting to encourage others to explain their play as well. I try to play the game in an orderly and organized fashion, and I find players who don't explain themselves to be extremely hard to read. They also usually tend to be scum. Like I said, though...Crypto is still high on my list.

To this:

Ecto: I understand what a scummy statement is, but I feel that it's more important to tell the truth than to lie in an attempt to look "more town". Also, if you'll notice, Crypto is giving us more than enough to work with now - he's explaining his posts and reasoning, making logical criticisms of other players and is generally improving. Therefore, I consider my unvote to have achieved the desired effect - he has changed his actions in a way that is beneficial to the town. Honestly, the more I hear from him now, the less I'm suspecting him, since it seems that he actually does have a plan.

Now Crypto the Trick Pony is in line all thanks to your unvote, which came at a time when Crypto was high on your list and very scummy? First time I've heard anyone claim their unvote was a motivator to proper play...
You and Darkstrike hang out?

[Ectomancer]

vote Darkstrike

Lynch all lurkers.

[Ectomancer]

Hi, sorry for the lack of activity, I'm crazy busy at university at the moment. I will try to get a post in by tonight.

btw Ectomancer, there were lots of genuine lurkers at that point in the game, why did you vote for me instead of the others like Gyro? Was it because I already have 2 votes and so it pushes the town nearer to a mislynch?
xx

You hadn't posted in 3 days and you were the only one. Everyone else had posted within 2 days or less.

Try checking your facts pal. Also try putting some information into the game and quit whining about votes on you.

[Ectomancer]

The kind of language that Ecto is pointing out in Netopalis' posts implies Neto is trying not to lynch his scum partner crypto, which is feasible until the crazy argument they are having now. Sorry but I doubt either of you are good enough actors to pull that off.

Not at all. What you are seeing in action is someone trying very hard to not be pinned to an opinion they can't wiggle out of, and to explain an otherwise inexplicable move.

Despite all the chatter, and his claim that his move worked out so well, the fact remains that Neto's unvote was weak and his own statement is that Crypto was at the top of his scum list at the time. All I've seen since then is deflection from that very basic question. Why did you unvote if he was the scummiest player you see? Telling me that you unvoted in order to

motivate crypto

is what we call a cowpatty down here.

[Ectomancer]

And now Crypto decides to vote over an argument that belongs in MD. I concur with Neto's assessment that Crypto just kept hammering at this point excessively, to where I was about ready to tell him to stfu already about it.

Netopalis is the epitomy of the term 'dodgy' in that for every opinion he seems to make, he has a contradictory opinion or exception to the rule stashed away.
I don't buy that coming from a different site causes you to contradict yourself.

So it comes as no surprise that Crypto would be suspicious, but he continues beating the dead mafia theory question to death until Netopalis in frustration finally votes him again. Which gives me the distinct feeling that Crypto regreted his earlier unvote and so had to poke poke poke until he had something he felt would look good enough to the town for him to vote Netopalis again.

However, having a protracted exchange in this manner indicates to me that likely they are either both bad scum, or not both scum, and the latter is IMO far more likely.
So while neither looks good in their exchange, I can also not decide that neither looks bad as both being bad is unlikely.

Here's my suggestion Neto and Crypto, drop it. Just unvote and let's move along. We have a few others to investigate today as well and I don't think you deserve the spotlight. So get out of it and push somebody else in (don't care if it is me either, I'll drag someone else in too). However, I would suggest looking in the inactive stack first. I'm not in much need of a prod.

[Ectomancer]

unvote

All in darkness must be driven into the light.

Sorry...it's NaNoWriMo and I'm in novel mode

Why did it get quiet? Don't wait on the replacement to speak out. Dont know what to say? Alrighty, then its time to play mafia games.

Pretend the mod just made a post that says you have to chose your lynch target in the very next post. Who would it be? (no lynch is an answer)

Mine is...

I'll tell you at the end. It's my game after all

[Ectomancer]

Experience tells me that the type of exchange you two are having often leads to the lynch of one of the two. An early bloodying between scum partners is not unusual, so an initial exchange is not unexpected, but there was some real doggedness on your part (not so much on Neto's) to keep pursuing this, even though you began to look worse as it wore on.
Even after Neto unvoted, rather than turn your attention to the other two players on your wagon and begin the process of beating them off, you kept the grind up on Neto until he finally voted you again.
So why would you do that? Ploy is the low probability option. While you can turn an inside straight, you only try if you can buy in low, and doing it day 1 is high risk.
No, I think something else is at work there and I'll need some time to work it out.

I've come to believe that out of a 3 man scum team you are almost certain to have 1 in the lower 30% of posters on day 1 if you allow them to simply hang back. By far and away I've seen players who are in the 50% above in posts get lynched day 1. These numbers are all gut, but given to give you an idea of where I think the numbers lie.
When you factor in a hard 2 week deadline, then the temptation to hide in the weeds becomes even greater. As you said, which of the multiple barely actives do you lynch?
Drive them out, get information out of them. How much is enough? I dont know. But I shouldn't be able to filter their posts and have them take less than a page, but thats just me.
And yes I was burned recently by the lurker who managed to never say anything not too suspicious by virtue of never being forced to say more than they wanted.

[Ectomancer]

I don't like this post at all. Anyone willing to publicly admit he or she is mafia almost deserves a lynch, whether it was a joke or not.

It wasn't a joke. It was sarcasm used to tip off whoever I was talking to while cloaking my intention enough that Malpascp, were he not paying attention, wouldn't think much of it.

Yes, sorry; I was using sarcasm and joke interchangeably. My point was that anyone who jokingly (or sarcastically) says they are mafia will get the reaction, no mafia would ever say that, so he couldn't be mafia. Or, if you were mafia, people would still think the same thing. It creates confusion, and although I am new here, I think that could be WIFOM argument?

Fans of sarcasm will use sarcasm whether it might look scummy to the non-fan or not, whether they are town or not. Those who say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit just aren't very good at it

[Ectomancer]

that is at the point where I had been asked to rehash the same point 4 times

That's not what happened. Feel free to make lousy excuses for yourself and bask in your Ecto-appointed freedom, but that's shit.

Ecto-appointed hey? I'm the Governor, granting pardons and such.

What I do is argue for a course of action, and then it is up to town whether to pursue it or not. I will not accept blame for being followed when there is always a choice for someone else to lead themselves. Don't be petty.

[Ectomancer]

Certainly you are thinking of someone else as I've never even considered law as a profession (except breaking it maybe), and before you make accusations of 'hiding behind a persona', you should do a little meta work first. I only have 3500 posts that sound just the same.

[Ectomancer]

This is a forum. It doesnt matter what time it is or what tmie zone you are in. Appeal to emotions isn't going to work here. Bone up or replace out.

[Ectomancer]

Crypto if what I just read is true I finally got the answer to the first question I asked. Is it because of a mess I left when you replaced me? You won!

[Ectomancer]

*sigh* I have failed for the umpteenth time. The above post is my alt's, in case anyone didn't get the fricking memo. Now, what are you saying, Ecto?

I wanted to know why you had been waiting to vote me when we were in rvs. I'm guessing now its because you replaced me in Tarhalindur. You had never really answered that question.

Anyhow if so, sorry!

[Ectomancer]

I don't see why Ecto is automatically the one who should be wielding the spatula and fork. I'd prefer to chew on somebody else's fixings for a change. My last stint at grilling came out dry and tough to swallow.

[Ectomancer]

7 wagons is about 4 or 5 too many.

If you are voting, make a post reinforcing or restating your case or unvote for less clutter.

[Ectomancer]

Ecto is making me itch.

Good post here. It let's scum know you are open to an attack on Ecto if they can find one to make, or it leaves you an opening later to jump on if needed without much elaboration. Go ahead and elaborate now so you can't modify it to suit the needs of tomorrow.

[Ectomancer]

Walrus, it's not about aggression; I just feel like you're actively lurking and going with the flow too much.

Especially compared to your meta. In your two completed games you were much more proactive. Granted, they were newbie games, but it shouldn't have that much of an effect on your play style either way.

Unvote. Vote: walrus helmet.

Also, I'm bored.

Your vein of argument would allow for Ectomancer to be replaced for Walrus in that quote. Of course I have your answer if I were, but I wonder why you would choose to vote Walrus for what you seemed to chastise me over. If Ecto makes you itch, shouldn't you be pressuring me to find out why?

[Ectomancer]

And yes, Malpascp, "paragraphs" are indeed "needed" immediately. Get your ass in gear, sir.

I think Gyro is playing just fine. Then again, I've thought so all game, so I could be biased on this one.

Really don't like how Walrus has both Neto and myself in his top tier of suspects. He's provided very little in the way of supporting arguments and just listing off the two of us along with Malpascp (ultra-easy newbie lynch) is howlingly scummy. That's some heavy-duty bandwagoning. Not only that, but Walrus undermines his own endowment of Malpascp with Best Lynch Award by saying "his behavior could also be applied to a power role, and it would majorly suck to lose a power role day 1." The whole thing reads to me like "Don't look me when the newb lynch flips town!"

Ecto is making me itch.

Great post. I agree with you 100%. I don't quite understand how his behavior could be attributed to a power role, as he says.

xvart.

I'd love to go fishing with you!

vote Xvart

[Ectomancer]

Also: Ecto, am I to take your vote for xvart as an answer to your "whom would you most rather lynch" question?

If not, I'd still like to have an answer.

Yep. Owen/xvart for the lynch.

[Ectomancer]

And yes, Malpascp, "paragraphs" are indeed "needed" immediately. Get your ass in gear, sir.

I think Gyro is playing just fine. Then again, I've thought so all game, so I could be biased on this one.

Really don't like how Walrus has both Neto and myself in his top tier of suspects. He's provided very little in the way of supporting arguments and just listing off the two of us along with Malpascp (ultra-easy newbie lynch) is howlingly scummy. That's some heavy-duty bandwagoning. Not only that, but Walrus undermines his own endowment of Malpascp with Best Lynch Award by saying "his behavior could also be applied to a power role, and it would majorly suck to lose a power role day 1." The whole thing reads to me like "Don't look me when the newb lynch flips town!"

Ecto is making me itch.

Great post. I agree with you 100%. I don't quite understand how his behavior could be attributed to a power role, as he says.

xvart.

Not in my eyes xvart. You said that you agreed 100%, but then you extended the intention of crypto's statement to suit your own need. Crypto is saying that Walrus used that statement to excuse himself when Malp would flip town. That's it.
You totally extended the statement to question Walrus' assessment of whether Malp's actions could be attributed to a Power role, and try to make it look like it was crypto's idea all along. You even just asked me how it was you could look bad while agreeing with someone.
Well, you didn't. You are questioning whether Malp's actions are that of a Power role or not. Crypto didn't ask that at all.
That's called role fishing, hence the facetious "I'll go fishing with you!"

[Ectomancer]

I would lynch Jester or Malpa over Neto.

[Ectomancer]

Also, I'm going to

tentatively

FOS Ectomancer

for the theory he puts forward in isos. 22 and 24. Scum did something similar in my last game. I've thought about it for a while and it doesn't sit all that well with me. Tentative, though.

@Neto

, do you oppose lynching a player slot that's undergoing a replacement?

How about you give your interpretation of exactly what "the theory" is there Crypto. Those are 2 very large paragraphs that express a semi-complicated game theory position. So off with you to explain what it is that you think the theory is first of all, then you can explain why it might be scum motivated, then how it relates to your last game. That is far too large a territory to point at for a 'tentative fos' (whatever exactly that means).

[Ectomancer]

The "They aren't both be scum" theory. I can very much see a mafioso using it in an attempt to clear or shift attention from a scum buddy while planting a town read on the other guy, or even to plant town reads on both players (substantially less likely). Denouncing an entire debate and pushing attention away from its participants is fishy to me; I don't care how unproductive the debate might seem (and I still maintain that it

was

productive).

No, I think something else is at work there and I'll need some time to work it out.

This in particular rubbed me wrong. It's a cliched statement, and I'm automatically suspicious of cliched statements because they have the ability to railroad a conversation without committing to a specific line of reasoning (beyond the initial theory, in this case the theory that Neto and I weren't both scum), but more notably you didn't follow up with anything.

Lastly, correct me if I'm wrong, but you weren't really arguing against anything. The theory that Neto and I

were

scum buddies was not a popular one, if it existed at all. The whole idea behind our debate was that we were trying to prove each other's culpability. Among observers, there was little or no suspicion that

both

of us were scum. Your theory basically rebutted a nonexistent stance, and you used that theory to redirect conversation from the two of us, despite seeming to think Neto was relatively scummy on his own. You said, "So while neither looks good in their exchange, I can also not decide that neither looks bad as both being bad is unlikely," but instead of taking another shot at working it out, you went to this—yet another angle from which you could shift attention from me and Neto: "Pretend the mod just made a post that says you have to chose your lynch target in the very next post."

And then came the statement I initially quoted, which you never followed up on.

The FOS is tentative because this theory is largely contingent on Neto being scum. It's still possible that you're scum, that he's town, and that you want to avoid a day 1 lynch on him in order to keep him alive because he'll be a good source of controversy later on and thereby a smoke screen for the real mafia. That's probably less likely than you two being scum together, but it's pretty much what happened in my last game.

All you have argued is that I did everything I could to direct the attention away from the two of you. It doesn't matter if you

really

think a continuation of the Neto/Crypto show was going to be any more "productive", it was being

counter-productive

by allowing the rest of the town to sit on the sidelines.
I shut you down on purpose. You may assign a nefarious design to it, or you may accept that it was simply time for the two of you to can it.

[Ectomancer]

Good game scum. I "breadcrumbed" power role with the "I am the Governor" statement looking to get nk'd. It worked maybe?