Mini 859 - Cleansing of Falls Church - Over

[Furry]

I'd love to dissect it and restate how you're wrong, but busted keyboard won't let me.

Something tells me if you find it hard to respond to a paragraph you are going to hate me in the next few days

*shrug*

ah well, I will get typing here soon anyways.

Also if someone can put up a reason why DJ is getting votes, and explain why DRK (who looks pretty town to me) is getting votes too, I would be much obliged.

[ConfidAnon]

DRK
I can see a town player in Confid who thinks he's right with what he saw, even after all the things that got pointed out that show that his attack is wrong.
The only thing that is less is that he's 'dropping' the attack. But even after that, I still think he's town.

Sigh. This is gettng old, I'm done arguing this point.

Btw, posting by page.

[ConfidAnon]

Don't know, cuz now I'm interested in vote: Don_Johnson

You don't know why you made a post? I'm leaning more towards scatter-brained than scummy, but still worth noting.

Because my current conclusion is that the Mafia are: Don_Johnson, Sanjay, & [Cookie - OR - BigBear], so FoS the whole lot of'em.

Explain why?

RESUME SKIMMINGLATER ON 24

[Furry]

Two things I should state now because of how much they annoyed me when I was reading this game, and proves that people need to learn a bit more about theory before they start trying to be cute.

1) Being "intentionally scummy"

There is never a good reason to be doing something like this. Period. When someone is acting scummy, any half decent scum will call them out of it. This includes self-voting, withholding information, intentionally lurking, anything like that. When you do these things with the intention of catching "over eager scum" or anything to that extent, you are just as likely, and actually more likely, to start going after town that is doing exactly what they are supposed to be.

I am always willing to lynch someone who is intentionally being anti-town for some perverse reason that they have come up with to justify it. The more you get on these people, the quicker they are to realize what they are doing is wrong.

2) Jesters!

There is no jester. There never was a jester. Any mod who puts a jester in a game, especially a normal game, should not be allowed to mod again. In the event a jester exists, you should lynch them, since they are essentially a scum role (They count as .75 goon iirc?). If you think someone is a jester, they are more likely scum. Kill them.

I will get onto why we should be killing off CA pretty soon here though. I would make a good bet that dead-CA means at least one of his buddies is on DRK-town wagon as well.

Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their neighbor! Repeat! Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their neighbor!

The best way to do that is to switch these wagons around with some serious speed.

[Furry]

Vote ConfidAnon

Time for a magical multi part case

1) Refusal to take an early stance / ITS A TRAP

For the first five pages (and that is being remarkably generous by me) CA never did anything that remotely signified a stance on a player, as he skated the issue once, and backed down on what could of been a legitimate push. These occur in the following postitions

My DeathRowKitty vote was not fully serious. Right now we are still pretty much in the RVS.

"fully?" ok... what that means is it WAS in part serious. If anything is partially serious, you have seen a scumtell. If you have seen a scumtell, the RVS is over. Prolonging the RVS is a slight scumtell, since you are avoiding scumhunting when its readily available. But we have him abandoning a partially serious vote for another random vote later on.

Secondly we have

One thing holding me back: I've seen BigBear play as scum. He's competent, and voting No Lynch is horrible scum play.

This is just such a big fence sit its quite amazing. BB did something scummy, but he is a good player so its null, but its a scummy thing. What is this even? It just feels like calling someone scum and town at the same time, especially that last line.

Remember my stuff earlier about why people shouldnt act scummy? CA exploits this to perfection.

That possibility did occur to me, but I chose not to say anything because when a gambit like that is explained, then it becomes worthless.

@BigBear: Were these your intentions? WIFOM? Can you refute these allegations?

That will just lead to more WIFOM.

So he thinks its a gambit to get people to vote him for being scummy or something, which is why he never took a strong stance, he doesnt want to disturb the trap.

What does this trap accomplish though? Anyone can answer this but I want CA to specifically. If someone votes BB, why are they scum and not town? You vote scummy players as town. I would be busting this apart if I was around then, but instead we get people perpetuation what is a baseless 'gambit' or whatever you kids are calling it these days.

The second part shows that CA realizes its WIFOM though, yet seems to be playing along all the same. Some WIFOM can benifit the town, as it draws out scum more then town, or impacts scum more severly. This though is just going to be a death blow to the town. CA knows this, but wont let it go. In fact its all that he has contributed to the game.

~~~~Intermission #1~~~~

lets all go to the lobby..... lets all go to the lobby........

[Looker]

I'd just like to know the point of the argument. ConfidAnon, what were your intentions for this dispute?
unvote
vote ConfidAnon

My original post was made to scumhunt. The argument continued because I foundhis insistence scummy. I'm convinced that I'm right, and I'm the kind of guy that loves to argue.

So this means that you're wasting our time? You don't find DRK suspicious at all, you simply like to argue? Not to say that this is a bad thing, it was entertaining to say the least, and I'm sure we can dredge up some interactions in the instance of either your or DRK's demise, lynch or otherwise.

Don't know, cuz now I'm interested in vote: Don_Johnson

You don't know why you made a post? I'm leaning more towards scatter-brained than scummy, but still worth noting.

Because my current conclusion is that the Mafia are: Don_Johnson, Sanjay, & [Cookie - OR - BigBear], so FoS the whole lot of'em.

Explain why?

RESUME SKIMMINGLATER ON 24

So many things happen at once, who can keep up? And the team has changed regarding my suspicions. As of this post, I believe the culprits are Don_Johnson, Furry, and Sanjay. I'm also suspicious of Cookie or BigBear; however, I believe their role, whomever has it, to be one consistent of pro-towness.

Furry's Post 679 - I have absolutely nothing to say about this post, I merely wished to welcome you to the game and let you know that I find your avatar to be one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen.

[ConfidAnon]

Sanjay - Was working under the assumption that you and Confid are town
DJ - Because I doubt Zaz, Peabody, and Shrine are all scum
Cookie - OR - BigBear - I'm leaning town on Nook & Cydonia.

Those reasons aren't that great imo.

@Looker
How does Cydonia's unvote alter your suspicions?

Good question, I'd like to see an answer.

Cuz I'm working under the assumption that Mafia won't lynch other Mafia.

Fail. Looker, meet bussing. Bussing, meet Looker.

Anyway, I'm asking for two elaborations:
-First is about your first list. You stated reasons why you saw that as scumteam. You had 4 off your scumlist, because you see them as town. But with three who were off your scumlist, this wasn't the reason stated. You couldn't see me, Peabody and Shrine as scumteam. So why wasn't one of us included in the scumlist?
-Secondly, the alteration of the third scum. How does KoC's unvote change it? I've seen your reason, but how does it alter the third suspect when KoC isn't in your scumlist?

More good questions, would like to see some good answers.

One question left after looking at your past posts:
-What happened to your Confid suspicions?

Another good question, I thought the same thing when I read Looker's 594.

Does anyone know what's going on with CA? (Is he still around, is he getting prodded/replaced, etc?)

Bunch of crazy real life crap, sorry about going Houdini on everyone.

[ConfidAnon]

I believe what ZazieR is, rather unsubtly, suggesting is that only scum don't suspect anyone, and that if you don't suspect anyone, you must be doing absolutely nothing during the day, and waiting for night. Which is a damn good point,

Very good post, very good point.

Uhm, correct me if I'm wrong, BigBear, and this is just what I got from my readthrough, but... didn't DRK start the Jester speculation? Because from what I read, DRK made a comment alluding to 3rd parties, then later clarified he was thinking of Jesters when making that comment. So... uhm... explain?

YES YES YES YES YES

THANK YOU for seeing my point!

Good call, I missed that connection.

Unvote:
Vote: DeathRowKitty

No offense, but if you missed that connection, then you must not have read my posts from my argument with DRK.

At the end of the day, all those fancy words don't hide the fact that you, not Nook, initiated Jester dialogue with IK. You brought it up first. No-one was even considering it before you said that to IK.
Bringing a Jester (a horrible role I have only ever used in Bastard setups offsite) into the game without any reason to do so, is scummy. Just 'cause you didn't say "Hey, IK, think this is a jester?" doesn't make it less scummy.

So much vindication in one post.

@KoC
What about bringing up a jester do you find scummy?

The fact that you only ask this question when pressured by more than one player is telling. Sounds like scum reverting back to a more fundamental argument to try to get out of a lynch.

FoS
-I was the third vote on you, why are you/were you so worried?
-Bandwagons are quite normal.
-You do realize that I am no longer voting you.

No, I didn't realize that you were no longer voting you, I started where I left off and read from there. And third vote on a wagon is a scumtell.

Something tells me if you find it hard to respond to a paragraph you are going to hate me in the next few days

*shrug*

ah well, I will get typing here soon anyways.

Also if someone can put up a reason why DJ is getting votes, and explain why DRK (who looks pretty town to me) is getting votes too, I would be much obliged.

Got a replacement keyboard now, so responding to a paragraph shouldn't be a problem. Now the hating you part, we'll see.

"fully?" ok... what that means is it WAS in part serious. If anything is partially serious, you have seen a scumtell. If you have seen a scumtell, the RVS is over. Prolonging the RVS is a slight scumtell, since you are avoiding scumhunting when its readily available. But we have him abandoning a partially serious vote for another random vote later on.

Valid point. I can't argue against it, because I was scummy. Is it a major point? No.

This is just such a big fence sit its quite amazing. BB did something scummy, but he is a good player so its null, but its a scummy thing. What is this even? It just feels like calling someone scum and town at the same time, especially that last line.

No, I was saying, in a nutshell, that BigBear's scummy action did not fit his scum meta from my experience with playing with him. I don't see how this is fencesitting.

What does this trap accomplish though?

It draws out reactions, which can be analyzed to try and determine someone's alignment. For example, we could see who agrees with whom on the issue to build connections. A gambit is a discussion starter to aid in scumhunting.

So this means that you're wasting our time? You don't find DRK suspicious at all, you simply like to argue? Not to say that this is a bad thing, it was entertaining to say the least, and I'm sure we can dredge up some interactions in the instance of either your or DRK's demise, lynch or otherwise.

No, I had a valid point to prove. The argument

escalated

because I like to argue.

So many things happen at once, who can keep up? And the team has changed regarding my suspicions. As of this post, I believe the culprits are Don_Johnson, Furry, and Sanjay. I'm also suspicious of Cookie or BigBear; however,

I believe their role, whomever has it, to be one consistent of pro-towness.

Possible role fishing, anyone?

[Looker]

EBWOM: Edit By Way Of Madness
Sanjay, Furry, & Cydonia - My apologies, I hadn't noticed Cydonia's vote for DRK.

Yeah, I don't really know why I'm still voting for you, when you aren't even second on my suspect list right now.

Unvote

Vote: ConfidAnon

Did you write a suspect list? I wanted to look at it.

don_johnson always brings in his "I always play differently to avoid generating a meta" crap when he's town, from my experience, interestingly.
So I think, what with the DRK jester-crap, for now, I will

Vote: DeathRowKitty

also.
Feel free to plead your case.

unvote
vote Knight of Cydonia

Only because I don't see the severity, or the relevance, of the entire Jester debate.

Furry's Post 679 - My brain's still chewing on this.

ConfidAnon's Post 681 - I was hoping you'd start on the people voting for you and give me a headstart. O well.

So this means that you're wasting our time? You don't find DRK suspicious at all, you simply like to argue? Not to say that this is a bad thing, it was entertaining to say the least, and I'm sure we can dredge up some interactions in the instance of either your or DRK's demise, lynch or otherwise.

No, I had a valid point to prove. The argument

escalated

because I like to argue.

So many things happen at once, who can keep up? And the team has changed regarding my suspicions. As of this post, I believe the culprits are Don_Johnson, Furry, and Sanjay. I'm also suspicious of Cookie or BigBear; however,

I believe their role, whomever has it, to be one consistent of pro-towness.

Possible role fishing, anyone?

I can't see how this is fishing.

[DeathRowKitty]

Sorry for disappearing . . . will et caught up PRONTO

Just when I thought bad logic was dead...

I pushed this because bringing the jester discussion is scummy. He stated that his post implied a jester, then denied that he brought up the topic.

I could've sworn the argument was about who

started the conversation

, not who "brought it up." I brought it up to one person in a way descreet enough that he didn't even notice it.

So much fail in one post . . .

I'd love to dissect it and restate how you're wrong, but busted keyboard won't let me.

Now that your keyboard issues have been resolved, care to point out all my lovely fail?

@KoC
What about bringing up a jester do you find scummy?

The fact that you only ask this question when pressured by more than one player is telling. Sounds like scum reverting back to a more fundamental argument to try to get out of a lynch.

...
Summarize for me in a couple of sentences what our argument was/is about and then maybe it will make more sense. Also, when you're done with that, I want you to answer the same question.

EBWOM: Edit By Way Of Madness
Sanjay, Furry, & Cydonia - My apologies, I hadn't noticed Cydonia's vote for DRK.

Clearly I'm obvtown, but...umm...why does KoC's vote for me put him on your scumlist?

I can't see how this is fishing.

Neither do I. Then again, I have absolutely no clue what it meant.

Also if someone can put up a reason why DJ is getting votes

It had a lot to do with BN (his replacee's behavior). Zazie made a decent list of points against BN that I'm too lazy to find/link to right now.

---

First thoughts on Furry: his quick vote for CA earns him some town points for me, but I'm getting some funky vibes right now. It almost looks like he's trying to buddy me a little right off the bat. Obviously, that's not necessarily a scum-tell, but it seems a bit fishy that (I think) he called CA out on a couple of things I've done too while potentially buddying.

[Furry]

First thoughts on Furry: his quick vote for CA earns him some town points for me, but I'm getting some funky vibes right now. It almost looks like he's trying to buddy me a little right off the bat. Obviously, that's not necessarily a scum-tell, but it seems a bit fishy that (I think) he called CA out on a couple of things I've done too while potentially buddying.

If I think someone is town, im going to call them town. Sanjay is blindingly town, you are town, EC is probably town. Town reads are just as essential as scum reads are.

I am not going to respond in full to CA untill after I get the entire case on him up. However, I will ask him to respond to the last paragraph of my first case on him, which is a key point.

@looker - *nuzzles* thanks for avvy comment. Unfortunately I cant draw that well, but I have access to quite a few of them.

[Looker]

Q: Why does KoC's vote for DRK garner suspicions from me?
A: The only people who know who are town are the Mafia and I felt we were falling into a sort of fallacy in regards to the Confid/DRK debate, a "pick one or the other" fallacy, or at least this is my current opinion. (Which collaborates with my suspicions of Furry, Sanjay, and KoC).

I understand that I change votes alot and that sometimes I may appear rather esoteric, but I try to maintain a consistent strain of reason within my actions, even if the explanation of this reason jeopardizes said reason and thusly said reason cannot be reasoned. Comprende?

[Looker]

Our Top Suspects?

DeathRowKitty (4) [L-3] - ConfidAnon, BigBear, Cydonia, Don_Johnson
ConfidAnon (3) [L-4] - Furry, Sanjay, DeathRowKitty
Don_Johnson (3) [L-4] - ZazieR, Shrinehme, Peabody

[DeathRowKitty]

162 a="dj"ntsy town or scummy fluff.

don't remember drk using the *asterisk* bit in our last game.

Just wondering, why did you find the italicized worthy of note?

Also, same question I asked KoC and CA: what is it that makes bringing up a jester scummy?

[ConfidAnon]

I could've sworn the argument was about who started the conversation, not who "brought it up." I brought it up to one person in a way descreet enough that he didn't even notice it.

Bringing up an idea opens discussion for that idea, which is what you did.

Now that your keyboard issues have been resolved, care to point out all my lovely fail?

Certainly, but later today . . . have to leave soon.

...
Summarize for me in a couple of sentences what our argument was/is about and then maybe it will make more sense. Also, when you're done with that, I want you to answer the same question.

I stated that you started the jester conversation. You denied it. We argued though several posts. My point was that your post directed towards IK (which you later stated was implying a jester) was what started the jester conversation. You said that nook started it.

Hunting for a jester distracts from scumhunting, so starting a conversation about a jester is antitown in nature.

The second part shows that CA realizes its WIFOM though, yet seems to be playing along all the same. Some WIFOM can benifit the town, as it draws out scum more then town, or impacts scum more severly. This though is just going to be a death blow to the town. CA knows this, but wont let it go. In fact its all that he has contributed to the game.

I won't let go of it? After I mentioned that it was WIFOM, I didn't post about it (unless I'm forgetful) unless specifically asked about it.

Also, mind clarifying on your reasoning behind your town reads? Hastily writing off people as town is scummy.

[Kreriov]

Vote count will be done tommorrow morning. (All my notes are at work since I usually have limited access on weekends.)

[DeathRowKitty]

Ouch. Quote fail. EBWOP:

162: Antsy town or scummy fluff.

don't remember drk using the *asterisk* bit in our last game.

Just wondering, why did you find the italicized worthy of note?

Also, same question I asked KoC and CA: what is it that makes bringing up a jester scummy?

---

Bringing up an idea opens discussion for that idea, which is what you did.

How did I open up discussion of jesters and did my post ever open up discussion of jeters?

I stated that you started the jester conversation. You denied it. We argued though several posts. My point was that your post directed towards IK (which you later stated was implying a jester) was what started the jester conversation. You said that nook started it.

Yep. Sounds about right. The argument was never about whether or not bringing up a jester was scummy, so I never bothered to bring that up. My point in asking the question now was to show that even if one does believe your side of the argument (which I still say is completely wrong btw), does it actually make me scummy? Basically, it's to allow me to keep the argument focused on what I feel matters, which is your ridiculous and inconsistent attack out of nowhere.

Hunting for a jester distracts from scumhunting, so starting a conversation about a jester is antitown in nature.

There are two things I'd like to point out from this, but I want everyone I've asked this question to to answer first.

[ConfidAnon]

How did I open up discussion of jesters and did my post ever open up discussion of jeters?

-

repats self

-

You asked a question of IK that was meant to imply a jester. You brought up the topic, so you opened up discussion.

Yep. Sounds about right. The argument was never about whether or not bringing up a jester was scummy, so I never bothered to bring that up. My point in asking the question now was to show that even if one does believe your side of the argument (which I still say is completely wrong btw), does it actually make me scummy? Basically, it's to allow me to keep the argument focused on what I feel matters, which is your ridiculous and inconsistent attack out of nowhere.

Yes it does make you scummy, because of both your scummy action of bringing up the jester, and how hotly and aggressively you denied doing so.

[DeathRowKitty]

-repats self-

You asked a question of IK that was meant to imply a jester. You brought up the topic, so you opened up discussion.

-"repats" self-

Did my question to IK open up a discussion?

@dj
You told me I shouldn't argue points you made against me because you're still reading. What do you think I should do instead if I disagree with something you say?

[Knight of Cydonia]

Bringing up a Jester = steering the town away from looking for scum, onto finding a hypothetical Jester that may not exist.
Bringing up a Jester = creating unnecessary speculation. This is the internet, we all mistrust each other enough as it is. Jester speculation begins all kinds of "should we really lynch him, he might WANT to be lynched" WIFOM.

Looker: your suspicions of me are based on what prior to my DRK vote, precisely? I see you took someone off your old scumlist because you were working on the assumption (not necessarily true by any stretch of imagination) that scum won't lynch scum, and I had unvoted them, but I never really saw any reason given beyond that. Feel free to point me to the massive case I totally missed, though, because right now it just looks like a chainsaw for DRK.

[Furry]

Bringing up a Jester = steering the town away from looking for scum, onto finding a hypothetical Jester that may not exist.
Bringing up a Jester = creating unnecessary speculation. This is the internet, we all mistrust each other enough as it is. Jester speculation begins all kinds of "should we really lynch him, he might WANT to be lynched" WIFOM.

Unless someone is refusing to lynch due to jester fears, the best course of action is to call them an idiot, point out that a jester is anti-town, and get the "jester" lynched. If I get a jester lynched, good. I did my part as town to kill off an anti-town player.

Remember, there is no such thing as jesters. Just overly scummy players.

[Looker]

Bringing up a Jester = steering the town away from looking for scum, onto finding a hypothetical Jester that may not exist.
Bringing up a Jester = creating unnecessary speculation. This is the internet, we all mistrust each other enough as it is. Jester speculation begins all kinds of "should we really lynch him, he might WANT to be lynched" WIFOM.

Looker: your suspicions of me are based on what prior to my DRK vote, precisely? I see you took someone off your old scumlist because you were working on the assumption (not necessarily true by any stretch of imagination) that scum won't lynch scum, and I had unvoted them, but I never really saw any reason given beyond that. Feel free to point me to the massive case I totally missed, though, because right now it just looks like a chainsaw for DRK.

It's hard to tell when you're being sarcastic. Was it your intention to confuse me?

I disagree with the first sentence, solely due to my confidence in the minds of my fellow players as well as my confidence in my own mind. Simply bringing something up shouldn't steer anything. I could bring up dolls right now, but it wouldn't incline you to debate about them for four pages.

And, in regards to your second sentence, I believe "mistrust" is rather dramatic. We're simply playing a game together. That's all it is - a game. An addicting one, but still a game.

As far as my suspicions, I believe you might have misunderstood my assumption. My intent was to generate a win-win situation, not to denounce the concept of bussing.

Re: "the massive case I totally missed" I wouldn't call it massive. It's simply that I see no relevance of Jester-theory discussion to scumminess if no one interceded to state such until after the fact, which is why I believe both Confid and DRK to be town at the moment and those utilizing a simple discussion as scumminess to be members of the Mafia.

You said yourself that Confid was about as town as it gets.

Confid is about as town as it gets.

unvote

Because I have no idea why my predecessor voted Cookie yet, and I don't want to contribute to any stupid lynches.

Why not feel the same about DRK? Despite your insistence that Mafia vote other Mafia, do you not believe that Town can vote other Town?

[Sanjay]

Furry, welcome to the game.

Looker, I don't have written scumlists. At the time Confid was my top suspect. Then brothernature.

Why didn't you ask for a list at the time? I could have answered you much better. Just curious about it now?

[Furry]

Back from weekend festivities... the only one of the year where I can be me and get complemented by people. 51 weeks to go...

2) Push on EC

I don't know how he knows a godfather even exists. Honestly, half the posts in this thread aren't serious.

I don't like Far Cry's personal attacks, but I don't see anything scummy with him.

I'm just jumping on the Shrinehme bandwagon because I don't get good vibes from him.


Vote: Shrinehme

This vote does not seem protown at all. It practically screams bandwagon.

Unvote, Vote: EtherealCookie

First off... bandwagoning is one of the most pro-town things that can be done in the early stages of the game. On top of that there is no explaining for why there is any scumtell here, just that he is wagoning. Its a legitimate wagon, there is nothing bad about that.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm not Jester. I'm just a guy who got swarmed with too much shit, said a few stupid things, and is in a deep pile of shit right now and is too busy to get out of it currently. Give me till the weekend, guys.

Appeal to emotion, js.

AtE is not scummy. Sorry. No one has ever explained why it is. I see CAs attempt, but it fails. Doubly to him using it as a conditional tell. The ignoring of BB putting him at a precieved L-2 getting not even a second thought is concerning as well.

[don_johnson]

drk: the italicized bit was noting a possible change in your playstyle. the asterisk bit can often seem smug or arrogant. there are some players who utilize it more than others, but compared to your playstyle in the previous game i felt it may have been exhibiting overconfidence. i.e. you read as obvscum to me, but have most of the thread fooled at that point in the game.

You told me I shouldn't argue points you made against me because you're still reading. What do you think I should do instead if I disagree with something you say?

excellent question. perhaps you should make your best case against who you think is scum. as it stands, i am not sure i will be caught up by deadline. strategy wise, i know i am not the best lynch for the day, so if i can't get you strung up, i will have to settle on someone else. if that means reading our top suspects in iso and moving my vote then that''s what i'll do. as for what you should do, you must look within yourself for answers to questions such as that.

or you could accept that you are caught scum and take it like a man.