Newbie 838 (Game Over!)

[hohum]

MiteyMouse replaces startransmission effective immediately.

Thanks MM!

[MiteyMouse]

Hi everyone! I'm going to try to get a read in tonight! Looking forward to playing with you all!

[Nikanor]

Whoa, it's MiteyMouse!

[MiteyMouse]

Ok...I'm not going to lie...I started at the start of Day 4. I wil probably get more into the thread when I get more time but, not yet. The first thing that jumps at me is Porkchop assuming that he is the vote target of ST. I know you said you didn't but, the way it's first worded does sound like you think it's you. Why is this PorkChop?

You also say that you have a case on Nik based on his play with Ash. Please present this case so we can all look over it.

[PorkchopExpress]

Frankly, MM, your first question is breath-takingly ridiculous. Correct me if I'm wrong: you seem to be saying that you understand that I do not accept the point, but want me to explain why said point is so. That would be an infuriatingly unrewarding endeavour for me. Allow me to answer by saying what my post is, and then you can create your own alternate read if the mood takes you (and actually give reasons as to why, which are still noticeably absent. Just by the by).

So far as I can tell, this whole argument "is so" because Nik said it is. More accurately, Nik asserted it is and then failed to demonstrate why. Seriously, go back and reread it. He doesn't even address post 444. He just reasserts his points and then tries to reframe the issue by suggesting that my going on the attack as a form of defence is the scummy part. Which is blinkeredly ironic, when all things are considered.

Well, that settles a few things for me. I'll hold off on my vote for the time being, but I certainly know where it'll probably be going.

To me, this is pretty much the Mafia equivalent of prick-teasing. He hints that his suspicions have been confirmed in some way (presumably the NK, or Tubby's flip and the NK) and that he'll likely be voting on that. After which, he leaves Nik and I to our own devices. That is troubling behaviour for me, so I prodded him about it.

Why? Well, I'm having trouble coming up with a reason for a Townie to make a post like that. If he's town, then he actually thinks he has something and is better off sharing it. Town can't act as a team if townies don't share their information. As scum, Star could be chumming the water and trying to bait Nik and myself into focusing on each other while he sits back and waits for a hammer. I can't make an astute call as to which is the case without more details, so I wanted to know what he's talking about so I can assess his case's credibility. At no point did I ever suggest (through syntax or otherwise) that I believed it was me. I would like either of you to point out what specifically says otherwise, rather than simply reassert this very tenuous point.


Your other question is sensible, thankfully. Here's what I was referring to in 442.

This Post - Rusty's RVS blurb and random vote for Carrick. Good to get some distancing in early.

This Post - Carrick's analysis of Rusty. His analysis doesn't even mention anything of alignment, focussing instead on Rusty's competence. It reads like "Pull your head in, mate." Here Carrick manages to avoid involving himself in the read of Rusty, while downplaying its importance and distancing himself.

This Post - Ash (having replaced Rusty) finally provides some analysis. Labels Carrick an active lurker but places him firmly in neutral territory. Weird double standard since he rated me/Crunchi higher based off Crunchi's lurking but claimed I was "Looking slightly town". Feels scummy to me.

Don't misunderstand me though; your slot has never been a lock for town in my opinion. Especially not after Star's start to the day and your piggybacking of Nik's dubious defence (of course, since you've only read today I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on that matter). Also, Ash's unvote on Star concerns me a little bit. This sort of idle (un)voting tends to tell me more about the voter than the votee, but it could be that he had misgivings about Rusty voting his partner and wanted to play it safe.

[Nikanor]

This Post - Rusty's RVS blurb and random vote for Carrick. Good to get some distancing in early.

In my experience, scum rarely vote for each other in the random stage. Newbscum especially hate making any kind of connection between themselves, including random votes.

This Post - Carrick's analysis of Rusty. His analysis doesn't even mention anything of alignment, focussing instead on Rusty's competence. It reads like "Pull your head in, mate." Here Carrick manages to avoid involving himself in the read of Rusty, while downplaying its importance and distancing himself.

Rustyshark - Extremely shaky first post which points towards him being a goon unless he has friggin aspergers syndrome.

Where does Carrick not mention anything about Rusty's alignment? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I see the word 'goon' in the above quote.

This Post - Ash (having replaced Rusty) finally provides some analysis. Labels Carrick an active lurker but places him firmly in neutral territory. Weird double standard since he rated me/Crunchi higher based off Crunchi's lurking but claimed I was "Looking slightly town". Feels scummy to me.

It could either be distancing if you are the last scum, or putting a buddy townier than he should be if Star/MiteyMouse is scum. It could be either way, so I don't want to try to draw any evidence from it.

[PorkchopExpress]

He's calling him an idiot. Goon is slang for that. Unless you really want to admit that Carrick claims to knew the details of Ash's alignment, which would be an interesting defence.

[Nikanor]

He's calling him an idiot. Goon is slang for that. Unless you really want to admit that Carrick claims to knew the details of Ash's alignment, which would be an interesting defence.

So it's okay for you to make assumptions about the implications in another's speech, but not okay for MiteyMouse and I to do the same? I think it's funny that you'd try to pass the assumption that goon=idiot, instead of the obvious goon=mafia goon.
I'll quote Carrick's line to you again, to make it a bit clearer.

Rustyshark - Extremely shaky first post which points towards him being

a goon

Mafia

unless he has friggin aspergers syndrome.

Does that help you out?
Your last sentence is just ridiculous. You're twisting Carrick's words around to make it seem as though he, 'knew the details of Ash's alignment,' which is untrue, and not even possibly a misinterpretation from the above quote.

[PorkchopExpress]

Ah, Nikanor's reaching again. Who would have thought?

I'm twisting nothing. It's a pretty logical conclusion to draw, and I'll show how I got there in a moment (which is more than you have done today). The rub of the situation is: either way you try to spin it, Nik, Carrick is scummy. Either he tried to avoid commenting on Rusty's alignment which is scummy, or he suggested he might be mafia and then did nothing to follow that suspicion. Which is also scummy. If you really want to argue the latter, then by all means but it still puts you in hot water.

As for the idiot thing:

I came to that conclusion after considering the post. Things like: If he was calling him Mafia, why wouldn't he just say Mafia? Why list the role in particular? If he was talking about Rusty's role, how did he come to reach this conclusion and why wasn't it shared with us? If he thought that Rusty could be mafia, why didn't he follow that up? If he was suspicious of Rusty, why did he ignore MME's question about the post? Why didn't Rusty reply to Carrick's supposed accusation?

The post only makes sense as a dismissal of Rusty, not an implication. That's why it ended there. The difference between "goon=idiot" and your "argument" (a liberal use of the term) is that I've done the due diligence to determine that my theory is likely, you've just desperately clung to whatever presented itself and then backed it up with an OMGUS accusation (So I'm scum for being suspicious of you. Classy.)

Once again, the Nik/Carrick slot shows no interest in scumhunting, as even in LyLo Nik chooses to play defensively and not actually construct a case. All this suggests to me that Nik is more interested in making sure he isn't the lynch, than lynching scum.

Vote: Nikanor.

MM, please post. I have a feeling that this game is about to have a fork stuck in it.

[Nikanor]

Vote: PorkchopExpress.

Ah, Nikanor's reaching again. Who would have thought?

It's not reaching. I'm pointing out the most logical conclusion. You are trying to turn a quote into something it is not. That's called twisting, and it is misrepresentation.

(which is more than you have done today)

Nice off-handed remark there.

Either he tried to avoid commenting on Rusty's alignment which is scummy, or he suggested he might be mafia and then did nothing to follow that suspicion. Which is also scummy. If you really want to argue the latter, then by all means but it still puts you in hot water.

The truth of the matter is that Carrick did nothing the whole game. He simply flaked out. He didn't even seem interested in the game at all. Your argument is not a valid one, as it ignores the fact that Carrick was a classic flaker, as was Crunchi. A person cannot follow up on suspicions if he's not present to do so.

Things like: If he was calling him Mafia, why wouldn't he just say Mafia?

I have no idea why newbies use the terms they use. I'm reading a game where a newbie uses the word Villa instead of Townie. Is that site standard? No. Does it mean anything about the newbie's alignment? No.

The post only makes sense as a dismissal of Rusty, not an implication. That's why it ended there.

Again, it ended there because Carrick flaked out.

The difference between "goon=idiot" and your "argument" (a liberal use of the term) is that I've done the due diligence to determine that my theory is likely, you've just desperately clung to whatever presented itself and then backed it up with an OMGUS accusation (So I'm scum for being suspicious of you. Classy.)

You haven't expressed due diligence at all. You've ignored several possibilities (Carrick coming from an environment where Mafia are simply called Goons, for example), and have simply gone for the hypothesis that favours you the most. Insulting my argument doesn't count as disproving it, by the way.
Furthermore, if you had just been suspicious, I would not have called you scummy. Instead, you try to make me look suspicious by twisting the words of Carrick and myself. That is what scum does in lylo.
About the OMGUS accusation: By that reasoning, scum could misrepresent a townie's position in lylo, and when the townie tries to call the scum out on it, as I am doing now, the scum could just point and call the townie's argument OMGUS in an attempt to invalidate the townie's argument, winning the game for scum.

Once again, the Nik/Carrick slot shows no interest in scumhunting, as even in LyLo Nik chooses to play defensively and not actually construct a case. All this suggests to me that Nik is more interested in making sure he isn't the lynch, than lynching scum.

Yeah man, that's totally it, because I haven't formed a case all game.

MM, please post. I have a feeling that this game is about to have a fork stuck in it.

This.

[PorkchopExpress]

Yeah man, that's totally it, because I haven't formed a case all game.

Not far from the truth actually. Most of your posts are excusing not posting or defending yourself. Of the three real analysis posts that have you've contributed, only one is noteworthy. Even then, they all contain fencesitting. PP is scum but not voteable, Blue is probably town but you still want to point out what you think is scummy (even though you don't); and despite a big isoread, Tubby doesn't actually get called scum until the day after you post it.

[MiteyMouse]

Ohhh....this sucks! I hate being the deciding vote. I'm going to have to reread and digest recent events. I hope to post some questions for both of you tonight.

[MiteyMouse]

Hmmm...interesting prediciment I'm in here....this sucks!

I went back a did a bit of digging.

Nik/Carrick...I think that Carrick did actually try but, life got in the way. The timing of Carrick asking to be replaced actually can look good and bad. One would have thought that he would either try to defend his buddy or vote him to give himself some cred. The other side could be a newb Scum not wanting to go it alone....I get the feeling from the tone of his posts that he was overwhelmed overall. Now Nik comes in and asks the Cop to claim...a few times. This is pretty blatent rolefishing. Except for the rolefishing, you looked ok up until Day 4. A bit lurky and fence sitty but, not bad. Now Day 4. You are just on the defensive here. It's like you are waiting for one of us to place a vote and hop on. Then Porkchop foiled your plan by voting you instead of me. Nik...you said earlier that you thought that Porkchop was most likely Town...what changed so dramtically?

I also need to quote this....

Rolefishing (let's out the cop)

I've seen that strategy work before in a newbie game. Basically, worst case scenario, the scum hits the doc on that night, then kills the cop the following night going into lylo. Even if the cop's target on n1 was the dead person, and his n2 on the doc, his n3 target will be confirmed, as the scum will be forced to kill the cop. This leaves us with one confirmed townie in 3p lylo in the absolute worst case scenario. If the scum doesn't hit the doc on n2, he loses. I can't believe you've never seen this strategy suggested before.

I think you totally gave yourself away here Nik!


Porkchop/Crunchi....Crunchi was the very definition of an active lurker. Came in every few days and said she had nothing to say and then was replaced. Porkchop replaces in and the first thing that really jumps in is the hammer for the person who ended up being Scum. This looks so bad. To top that off...this is the first time that he really mentions having suspicions of DV. Not much on Day 3. Day 4 however has Porchop on the attack. Now, he votes for Nik and, though it is mild, insults me. One would thing that a smart Scum would be trying to get me on his side.

Vote Nik

*bites nails hoping she made the right choice!

[hohum]

The following players have fulfilled their win condition: (7)

MiteyMouse

starttransmission

Hulk

,

Vanilla Townie

, Survived
PorkchopExpress

Crunchi

,

Vanilla Townie

, Survived

RayFrost

Vanilla Townie

, Killed, N1
Purple Princess,

Vanilla Townie

, Lynched, D2
My Milked Eek

*

Vanilla Townie

, Killed, N2
tubby216

bigmc109

,

Vanilla Townie,

Lynched, D3
pads

BlueRaven

Echo

Vanilla Townie

, Killed, N3

Thanks for playing! But maybe next time(2):

david-villa-7

rustyshark

Mafia Roleblocker

, lynched, D1
Nikanor

Carrick16

,

Mafia Goon

, Lynched, D4

Mafia QuickTopic: http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/huxuYGj88Mx7

Congrats to the town for pulling off the last minute victory! I will post my thoughts following this post. Please feel free to kick off the post-game discussion before then and I encourage everyone who participated in this game (even if you were killed or replaced out) to post your thoughts.

[MiteyMouse]

YAY!!!! High Fives to the Town!!

[Pads]

Woo, good game, all, and grats to the town.

And belated welcome to MiteyMouse. I had been looking forward to playing with you again, but I missed you by one day. O.o

As for the game:

I thought the town did a nice job of sorting through the lynch options and snagging scum on Day 1, Ray Frost and MME, in particular, were very productive. The town stumbled a bit on Day 2 and Day 3, but I think that was due, in part, to the distraction caused by some reasonably questionable behavior from other townies.


PorkchopExpress: I guess life kept you from posting more on Day 3, but you certainly blossomed on Day 4 and did everything a townie is supposed to do. Everything was earnest and reason-based. Not only is that how a townie should behave, but it's what a scum should strive to emulate.

Nikanor: You came in with the odds stacked against you, and you did pretty reasonable for the hand you were dealt. For me, a big turning point was you saying that I had earned a few townie points with my Day 2 play. Nothing hits my scumdar harder than someone saying that I"m being town-like, especially when I know I"m not.

My Day 2 play, while not as truly scummy as it might first seem, was certainly not the most pro-town way to approach the situation. With the deaths of RayFrost and MME, it occured to me that the scum were attempting to neutralize the active, scum-hunting townies (as opposed to, say, aiming for lurking power roles). By saying I've earned town points, it felt like you were trying to make nice with me, as a way to neutralize me without spending a Night Kill on me.

I pondered the Night 3 Kill quite a bit; trying to decide if there was a better target than me, if you were scum, but I think you made the right choice. Killing me removes a detractor and leaves you with two players that don't have a strong stated opinion on you or each other, and there's plenty of room for one of them to vote incorrectly on Day 4. The downside, is that it will be the second night in a row that your attacker has ended up dead.

Conversely, if you leave me alive, it looks less suspicious, but you leave a known attacker in the game for Day 4 play. It's a tough choice, but I think you made the right call. Especially since scumStartransmission's night kill of choice should also have been me. (scum Porkchop would most likely off Star, counting on me to put a bad vote on you in LyLo).

Anyhoo, I think the game was more or less well played. 'Good job's go out to RayFrost, MME, Porkchop, MiteyMouse, and Nikanor.

Hope to play with you all again sometime.

[PorkchopExpress]

Way to finish off, MM. Good game guys, I'll post something more substantial later.

[Nikanor]

Nikanor: You came in with the odds stacked against you, and you did pretty reasonable for the hand you were dealt. For me, a big turning point was you saying that I had earned a few townie points with my Day 2 play. Nothing hits my scumdar harder than someone saying that I"m being town-like, especially when I know I"m not.

Well, I actually do think quickhammering as you did was a towntell, so I would have done the same as town. I probably would have shown more detail into why I thought you were town (or maybe not said it at all) if I were town, but it was a towntell to me all the same.

Congrats on Porkchop's play. You really surprised me with your excellent play on the last day. I didn't think you had it in you. O.O

Now Nik comes in and asks the Cop to claim...a few times. This is pretty blatent rolefishing.

Except that that is the correct play for town in that situation. If I were a cop, I would have definitely claimed it.

[PorkchopExpress]

Ok, Day 4 pretty much encapsulates what I love (and drives me nuts) about mafia. That feeling that everyone in the world has gone stark-raving mad and that you're the only one who's speaking any sense, and then the lift when it turns around.

I was just about ready to have myself institutionalised when MM voiced support for Nik's theory. I just couldn't see where that conclusion came from and (in case it wasn't obvious) was more than a little frustrated that I had to argue something that I couldn't wrap my noggin around.

MM, hopefully I'll get to play a proper game with you. Props for a kind of unrewarding late game replacement. That's class right there.

Nik: Carrick didn't leave you in a ideal position, and until Day 4 you weren't registering as much of a suspect, which means you were playing a good game as scum, imo. Hell, on Day 3 I was questioning Pads for a reason. Your case against Tubby was great (and a big factor in making me suspicious of him) and, honestly, if you had gone after Star at the end there was a good chance that I would have lent my support to that mislynch. Maybe you were too quick to offer town reads, which left you in a situation where you had to go back a construct a case against someone you earlier dismissed. Pad's probably summed up your situation nicely going into Day 4 (kill him and risk removing too obvious a threat, or leave him and have half a bandwagon in LyLo) and I think you made the best choice all things considered.

Pads: Despite my misgivings about your hammer (hindsight being 20/20 but a me/Pads/Nik LyLo may have gone very differently) you really made Day 3 your own. Part way through Day 4 I was referring to your case against Nik to help clarify my own positions. Good stuff, you were obviously more than townie enough to not survive (mafia is a cruel mistress, no?).

MME and Ray were early game town powerhouses. And I'd still really love to learn what the hell Star was talking about. Also, Ash, you shouldn't stuff around when it comes to answering questions.

Thanks for running, Hohum.

[My Milked Eek]

Posting in a few hours, I have class in one hour. But congratulations guys

[My Milked Eek]

lol, that quicktopic is barely used.

Some general advice:
If you were the subject of a bandwagon, look at the arguments used against you to improve. If you were nightkilled: good job, lol.

RF, Pads, Tubby, Star and Porkchop were all pretty quick on my town list and I don't think any change or advice could be given here, perhaps
- be more active during the final days
- don't replace out @startrans

The only big remark I have is the slowness of the final days, I was getting a bit frustrated why you weren't talking D3 and D4. But that's it.

Nikanor: good game. But the other players were monstrously town, making the game harder for you. You did good

dv: read the cases against you to improve.


All in all, this was a fun game to play and I hope I'll play with several, if not all, of you in a future game.

And a big thanks to hohum for moderating this fun game.

[MiteyMouse]

This was a great game to play even though I came in so late.

Nik and Porkchop, it was so great playing with you! Hohum mentioned that it was you too that I'd be playing with and though, I wold normally take on such a big read, I couldn't resist! You both played so well and Porkchop, your responce to my first real post had me thinkin that you were Town. I then had to go and make sure that I was right. Nik, you asking for the Cop to out themselves and then the quote that I used was what did it for me.

I'm glad that I made the right choice as, I would have hated to have made the wrong one for those of you that played this game from the start.

Thanks Hohum for modding us! Great game as usual!

[startransmission]

Gah, and my vote was going to be for Nikanor. I know it's my own fault, but it stung like hell to get replaced. I was waiting for everyone to post before laying out a case, and I didn't realize how much time went by. When I saw my prod I went to post, only to find I had already been replaced. A bitter pill to swallow given how sure I was that I had scum in my sight. Anyways, lesson learned. Great game guys, and congrats to town!

[RayFrost]

Oh, this game is done.

SCUM QT ME READ NAO

[RayFrost]

Scum QT has nothing.

why was I killed?