Newbie 865 - Game over!

[imkingdavid]

Ahh, misunderstanding there on my part I guess. The quote you have from TF that precedes your paragraph that begins with "Secondly, rampant..." was about me, so I figured you were referring to me when you said "rampant suspect changes". My apologies for the misunderstanding.

Anyway, I'm off to bed.

[PaltryExcuse]

Nope, I'm getting from this I'm not being clear enough for all. Sorry if I'm coming off kind of harsh or whatever. This is all in the name of fun.

[Elmo]

Day 1, Vote Count #4

tracker (2) <- RPG*Twilight, CommieX
RPG*Twilight <- tracker

Not voting: Toon Fighter, Canada, PaltryExcuse, Neo-con John, Gayle, imkingdavid

The

deadline

is Wednesday 25th November, 22:00 UTC, which is 9 days, 1 hour and 30 minutes from this post. If deadline hits, there will be No Lynch.
With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

Neo-con John has been prodded.

[Toon Fighter]

And the plot thickens...

Now, tracker votes for RPG, while accusing Gayle in his post. A few more contradictions, and RPG seems to have kicked his argument.

What I think, from my newbie prespective, is that IKD and tracker are scum, and IKD threatned to vote tracker to seem less suspicious (and it could trigger another vote or two on him, lynching him). tracker accused IKD for similar reasons, and didn't vote for him for the same reason. [Also, IKD ignored RPG's post completely (possible ninja, looking at the time they were posted)]

About my accusations on CommieX, dunno, just had a hunch, and didn't like his post.

I may be wrong, but...

vote: tracker

[PaltryExcuse]

Seeing as we may have a flaker, and that flaker was who I was looking at closely, I figure it's only fair to put my thoughts on the guy before his replacement gets here.
POST #1:

Hello All

Played once before, really excited to play again. It was a random vote game I played on here and that setup led to a lot of quick deaths and rash decisions. I like the idea of asking questions as it seems like it will get everyone a bit more engaged. It just seems like a more sophisticated way to play which I would imagine is why the deadline is set for 20 days!

Neo-con John: What is your opinion on lurkers(ing)?

I don't really see how someone could have a positive opinion on lurking, I definitely see it as bad behavior. The more people talk the better it is for the game and the less people talk the more likely we are to make a bad decision as a whole. I plan to talk... a lot, so count on seeing plenty of me.

And one final question for everyone: What is your view on No-Lynching? Is their ever a time where No-Lynching would be better than a lynch?

I do not have any experience with a no-lynch so I can only follow the wisdom of my fellow players who seem to agree that a no-lynch actually only favors scum. The argument makes sense as even a bad lynch provides information on others motivations where as a no-lynch gives the town nothing.

He mentions that he plans to talk a lot, and then proceeds not to. This is not particularly scummy, it is just incorrect. What's more interesting is the fact that he willingly admits that he agrees with the previous posts, and has nothing further to add due to inexperience. Acceptable.

POST #2:

I do not understand. What is it about games with a no lynch rule that makes them more interesting?

Nuttin' new. Just a random theory question.

POST #3:

Sorry for not participating, long weekend.

So from what I gather so far there have been small fingers of suspicion cast at RPG and PE, a very small finger pointed at Gayle, and what I would describe as a strong finger being pointed at tracker which has actually resulted in a vote. That is 4 out of 9 players that have been accused in some fashion, and I like to think that the group cannot be dead wrong on all four, meaning we have a fairly good chance that at least one of those listed is actually scum.

Now I may have missed something, please tell me if so. I have prepared the following summation of suspicions so far:

Commie X accuses tracker in PS#20 about the questions asked

RPG accuses Gayle in PS#21 for his answer to the no-lynch question, though it later appears resolved in PS#25

RPG accuses tracker in PS#29 for his position on lynching lurkers

RPG accuses PE of possibly trying to "protect" tracker in PS#33

Gayle puts the names of RPG and tracker in bold letters in PS#35 questioning RPG's suspicions and had the following to say about tracker

He asks about the everyone's opinion on allowing a no lynch, but does not give his own until everyone else has given theirs. Then he goes out of his way to explain why a no lynch may be feasible.

He establishes that he is scatterbrained and doesn't have the best memory. A good excuse for a mistake later in the game.

He questions twilight's use of the word agenda, as if he thought twilight was accusing him.

He first advocates lynching lurkers as a policy, and then waters it down a bit with 'if i believe someone to be scum then they're lynch candidate #1'.

A strong case indeed.

This is IIoA, or information instead of analysis. The first half of his post is just recounting what has happened in what was a short game at that point. It is completely unnecessary and ultimately unhelpful for the town. Feeding them information they already have is

active lurking

, and is scummy.

Overall I am unable to figure out RPG, he is throwing accusations around a bit too much, though this could just be evidence of an aggressive towns person.

Gayle seems to have cleaned up any problems folks were having with his position on no-lynch, his case agianst tracker seems solid.

I completely agree that it looked like PE was trying to protect tracker from RPG's questioning which was pretty harsh, perhaps RPG was onto something? Nothing else PE has done seems scummy though so that doesn't add up right now.

On the first three people who had been suspected, we have very wishy-washy feelings. He gives the reason that has been stated why they were looked at, and then the reason why the attacks died down. All of this had been said by other people. It's analysis, but it is completely un-original.

Tracker seems very suspicious to me. From the beginning I saw the questions as good for the game but also as really good for tracker as it provides a great cover for scum. He gives the appearance of being pro-town while at the same time collecting valuable information on all of us and maybe even dividing us amongst ourselves. His second line of questions looked to me like someone trying to divert our attention away from the RPG/PE fiasco in PS# 29-33. The questions themselves just seem weak and quickly put together, What is your favorite role?, C'mon. I am not quite quite ready to vote but I am

Seriously considering:tracker

Then finally, the case on which many people up to this point seem to believe: the case on tracker. His only unique piece of information comes here, the line about possibly distracting from the RPG/PE fiasco that took up an entire 5 posts! An his way of distracting everyone? By bringing attention back on himself. We have a re-iteration of everyone's case on tracker, and then an absolute bogus argument.

POST #4:

PE-I meant the questioning was harsh. I also was agreeing with RPG that it seemed as though you were trying to remove the attention on tracker, who... if scum, is a scummy move on your part as in this scenario you would be his scum partner.

So I would like to ask you, Paltry Excuse, what do you think of tracker and why did you get in the way of RPG's questions?

I'm the first one to question his words, and so he comes back at me. Slightly, peripherally OMGUS, but not entirely. The first short paragraph is a re-iteration on what has been brought up about me.
The second is in two parts. First, what I thought of tracker. Fair enough. The next question is obviously trying to put blame on me. Why did I get in the way of RPG's questions? This is a real attempt at blame-shifting. He says the only way what I did could be scummy, is if tracker is. The second part of the question seriously questions my behaviour, and accuses me of something. I take it you think I'm scummy. Which means you're essentially blaming two people in one post, without any new information on your own.

POST #5:

^ Agreed

The next time we hear from John is this. He agrees that tracker should post his findings. RPG has most recently said that he finds my first paragraph in my response to John as townie. Without ever giving a response or comment to me, John has now moved on to his favourite target, tracker. As soon as his argument lost favour, John gives up his claims.
POST #6:

I still have that game on my watched topics, and I re-read all of what I wrote. I got prodded, had short sentences,

didn't even talk to my scum-buddy (who got killed in D1, which I wasn't entirely active on.) Which, if you'll see, is exactly how I'm not playing now.

So are you admitting to talking to your scum buddy this time around?

This is an interesting piece of evidence here. I understand that this could have been an innocent unintentional use of words but it also could be a Freudian slip. If so it suggests that

(1)RPG is scum;
(2)RPG's scumpartner is one of the people he has not interacted with yet.

Ill do the research later on who RPG has and has not ben in contact with, unless someone else would like to.

If true, it would mean that tracker is not scum as he and RPG have communicated with each other, or a deeper unrelated ruse could be at work. Perhaps RPG's scum strategy is to strongly accuse his partner right off the bat in order to throw the rest of us off.

Admittedly I am speaking from a position that is already highly critical of tracker so I do not know how objective this actually is, but I do believe this new piece of evidence is something worth looking at. Though I am not even really completely sold on the idea that RPG is scum. Like I said it could just be a misuse of words.

Holy crap-muffins we have nothing new in this post! We have IKD's catch based on RPG's wording. Then we have an explanation of what it could mean. Then we have the promise of more about it. Then we have how it relates to tracker. Then we have... nothing? Wishy-washy opinion on whether RPG or tracker is scum, I guess.
I find you very scummy, Neo-con John.

Vote: Neo-con John

[imkingdavid]

What I think, from my newbie prespective, is that IKD and tracker are scum, and IKD threatned to vote tracker to seem less suspicious (and it could trigger another vote or two on him, lynching him). tracker accused IKD for similar reasons, and didn't vote for him for the same reason. [Also, IKD ignored RPG's post completely (possible ninja, looking at the time they were posted)]

1) If you have any evidence besides a hunch "from [your] newbie perspective", then please, by all means, enlighten us. That entire paragraph and highly speculative, and reeks of WIFOM.
2) Which of RPG's posts did I ignore? His most recent was directed at tracker, so there was nothing really for me to comment on.
3) Care to clarify what you mean by this:

tracker accused IKD for similar reasons, and didn't vote for him for the same reason.

@ PE: you may have something; those are some good points. But let's wait and see if he picks up his prod, and if not, what his replacement has to say.

[Canada]

Sorry for not posting guys, going to read over this again tonight and hopefully make a post while listening to Cuffs :3. I've been keeping up, just not posting.

~Canada

[tracker]

My hands comin' along fine, should be fine in a few days. I started my analysis, last Wednesday, actually, did quite a bit of work on it Thursday, then spent most of Friday getting ready for Saturday's Hunt, then was able to do a little more work on it, hunted all Saturday, Church and family breakfast till 1 Sunday then finally got on and finished the analysis. I realize that the second post is kinda outdated as it's mostly my thoughts from Wednesday-Thursday, and Friday wasn't so much a work day as a re-read day, just for stuff to think about over the weekend, and while waiting for the deer to come around, I mused on it, and changed my thoughts, then while finishing the analysis I noticed how anxious everyone was for the overplayed "super-case, great findings" that I had, so I didn't update the first one just posted it as soon as I was able.

Post Counts

The post count was a personal note to me moreso than the town, I had planned on deleting it but rushed and forgot it in the end. IKD, I'm not saying that we should disregard your post count, just take it with a grain of salt, as it's content versus however many posts you have that I personally find more beneficial.

suspicion

As of Thursday, I found Gayle to be suspicious, this changed over the weekend, and I realize that it's undoutbly confusing, and I'm a bonehead for not taking the time to update it before posting. After thinking about it, I decided that maybe I was wrong on my suspicions.

RPG

I'm sorry about the overemphasis on certain wordings, I've just been remembering another game I was in where the scum used certain actions to coordinate their attack and defense. However, I do believe that you've cleared that up nicely.

I will review, RPG, Gayle, IKD, John, and TF over the course of this week, and will post a case or another review of each on the upcoming days, I'm hoping to do one a day every day until I finish. Probably start with TF tommorow, I'm really runnning out of time now.

I'm sorry IKD, I reviewed this mod's rules and it's true that you don't have to unvote before vote switching, I forgot that, and apologize.

[PaltryExcuse]

About my accusations on CommieX, dunno, just had a hunch, and didn't like his post.

I may be wrong, but...

Right now, I feel that the doubts you have are unfounded and are based on a gut instinct or you're fishing for someone to build a case on CommieX. Laying out the bait, and hoping someone will take it. Gut instinct is fine in all in moderation, but it's hard to believe you have a case on him at all now. It feels slightly stall-ish.

@ PE: you may have something; those are some good points. But let's wait and see if he picks up his prod, and if not, what his replacement has to say.

Understandable.

[imkingdavid]

Post Counts

The post count was a personal note to me moreso than the town, I had planned on deleting it but rushed and forgot it in the end. IKD, I'm not saying that we should disregard your post count, just take it with a grain of salt, as it's content versus however many posts you have that I personally find more beneficial.

That makes sense. Quality is always more important than Quanity. But without much quantity, there's nothing to call quality. If you get what I mean.
In any case, it's a bit harder to try and scum hunt when a lot of the people have only 6 or 7 posts total than if everyone is actively participating.

I will review, RPG, Gayle, IKD, John, and TF over the course of this week, and will post a case or another review of each on the upcoming days, I'm hoping to do one a day every day until I finish. Probably start with TF tommorow, I'm really runnning out of time now.

Sounds good.

I'm sorry IKD, I reviewed this mod's rules and it's true that you don't have to unvote before vote switching, I forgot that, and apologize.

No worries, it's a trivial matter, really, as far as scum hunting goes.

[PaltryExcuse]

IKD: Who are you finding most scummy at this point? Now that I think about it I don't know who in particular you find as most likely scum.

To everyone else: Post more!

[Neo-con John]

I am not at all surprised that PE has voted me as he is one of the few people I have accused, and from what I understand some people make judgments in this game,just as in real life, based on personal feelings and not necessarily on facts, which isn't always even a bad thing. It is interesting that you would react with a straight vote though.

I apologize for my post count I will start posting more. PE claims my posts are not substantial enough and that I only reiterate points made by others. This is partly true, though I would argue that summary

is

analysis as it allows people to

analyze

the events of the game in a condensed fashion and thorough another persons perspective. That is really what I was trying to provide was perspective, which I feel is a major part of this game.

At this point I am at an impasse. My strongest suspicion is on tracker though with the amount of votes on him already I am hesitant to put one through. Anyone want to discuss this? If there is a scumwagon on tracker that would suggest that TF, Commie X, or RPG are scum. In another possibility, perhaps the wisdom of the crowd is correct. Maybe those three are all honest townsfolk who are right to vote tracker because he (as I agree) has been acting real scummy.

In any case I apologize for my lack of posts. I will read the game over again and try to post something else tomorrow.

[Canada]

Sorry about not posting yesterday, looking over it now. Anything specific you guys want me to comment on?

~Canada

[PaltryExcuse]

I'm not an emotional player, and emotion did not guide my vote. If your only defence is that I'm emotional, then I'm not going to change my vote. Trying to discredit the poster is not a defence. If you can prove my case is bogus or my doubts unfounded, that is much better. What exactly is interesting about me voting you in my analysis post?

Summary is not analysis. As I said, anyone can summarize quite easily. It is tactic that is used by scum to look like they're contributing without giving anything new. I will say it again: it is called

active

lurking and is a scum tell. You can provide perspective by giving unique thoughts on the situation, not repeating others. I am looking for your perspective, not the ones I can get by reading others' posts.

The scumwagon on tracker was my idea. Then you give the possibility that the wagon is right. So I will ask you to do this: build a case on tracker if he's your top suspect. One that analyzes his posts, rather than copies others' ideas. Secondly, we're still waiting on that analysis on RPG and his comment that you once believed was a tell.

More posts would be appreciated! If you are town I'd like to change my mind. Although, right now I see nothing to say I'm wrong.

**Sidenote: I apologize for jumping to the conclusion that you flaked.

[tracker]

Wow, I almost didn’t get on today, as I had to work late. Tomorrow and Thursday might be about the same, but I will try my best.

Neo-con John

20 Questions great way to start game
Lurking = bad and anti-town
Admits to going with crowd and NL=bad

Why NL rule =interesting?

RPG, PE, Gayle and Tracker are all under suspicion, one must be scum
Gayle’s case is super
Tracker-very suspicious, questions good way to start but also very scummy. Collecting valuable information about all of us, and dividing us among ourselves. Second bout of questions distraction questions.

PE-Why’d you jump to Tracker’s defense

Show us your findings

RPG-Freudian Slip, RPG=scum, and RPG’s scum-buddy hasn’t been talked, says he’ll figure out who that is. This would mean tracker does not = scum so this probably is poor word choice.

Dismisses PE’s vote as personal feeling rather than, actual scum-tell.
Summary=analyzed, as it gives “perspective”
I want to vote Tracker, but only if somebody gives me permission, either tracker=town and his wagon is scum, or tracker=town and his wagon is right.

The above are my initial thoughts on NCJ after a second reading, now here are my reaction and question thoughts

you say lurking is bad and anti-town at the beginning, yet you haven’t contributed much.
Goes with town, almost as if trying to blend in.
Town suspects 4 people to be scum, one should be scum, Gayle seems to have the best attack, let’s jump on tracker,
picks up IKD’s tell on RPG,
doesn’t want to analyze PE’s attack.

Case:

1) Few-None original thoughts, even the summary to gain perspective through another’s eyes doesn’t any insight into NCJ’s thoughts.

2) Goes with flow on everything, advocating a lynch on the most suspicious or whoever comes under fire.

My thoughts and comments to NCJ

Update your stance on me. Look at my resonces to the questions, points, and attacks brought against me, then pick them apart and build your case.

Do the same with PE’s attack on you. I don’t see it as personal emotion at all, why would it be? All of your suspicion seems to be on me.

Go ahead and vote me NCJ, I know your probably going to flame me for saying your asking permission before voting, but that is how I’m interpreting;

My strongest suspicion is on tracker though with the amount of votes on him already I am hesitant to put one through. Anyone want to discuss this?

If you are asking permission I give it to you, as there are only 2 votes on me and yours will put me at L-2, not much to worry about, if I’m wrong and your not looking for permission to vote please correct, I will apologize in advance if I interpreted that wrong.

Also, analyze my analysis of you and post your respsonce to it.

[Neo-con John]

Holy cow, tracker's most substantial and heartfelt post is directed at one of the people most critical of him.

Cough.. scumtell.. cough.

Not only this but his accusation doesn't come in Post #119 where he posts his initial "findings" about me, but it comes 20 posts later after the finger of suspicion has already been pointed, (by his reputed partner in crime PE by the way). Talk about scum.

I hate to vote on provocation but I will not allow this scumbuggery to continue. There are currently

THREE

votes against you, which was the cause of my concern, and now there are four. Did you lie about the vote count on purpose or has your time in the underworld affected your ability to count?

I have seen all I need to convince me of your true identity.

Vote: tracker

[PaltryExcuse]

Holy cow, tracker's most substantial and heartfelt post is directed at one of the people most critical of him.

Cough.. scumtell.. cough.

Not only this but his accusation doesn't come in Post #119 where he posts his initial "findings" about me, but it comes 20 posts later after the finger of suspicion has already been pointed, (by his reputed partner in crime PE by the way). Talk about scum.

Look who's talking. You're attacking who now? Two people who attacked you. Because they're making a concerted effort against you, they both must be scum. How convenient. Secondly, tracker's "findings" about you included this line:

Not much for idea creation, more of taking what others find

So, in his two sentences on you, he calls you out on something I was building a case on.
Just about gameplay however, it is seriously dangerous to start assuming you've found not one, but BOTH scum at this point. I could be wrong, and so could you. For all we know scum is sitting back and laughing as this entire ordeal takes place. So far I'm scum for defending tracker... which I really haven't done. I've attacked you, and I questioned RPG lightly.

I hate to vote on provocation but I will not allow this scumbuggery to continue. There are currently

THREE

votes against you, which was the cause of my concern, and now there are four. Did you lie about the vote count on purpose or has your time in the underworld affected your ability to count?

I have seen all I need to convince me of your true identity.

Vote: tracker

How does tracker's mistake on the vote count mean he is scum? Honestly, that point against IKD was rather weak as well. A mistake like that could HURT tracker because someone reads his post, thinks he's scum, but accidentally lynches him when they weren't ready.

For me, you need to:
1. Defend yourself against my case.
2. Build one on tracker.
3. Explain to me what I've done that is scummy per se... I'm not seeing it.

[imkingdavid]

I'm not liking Neo's response to tracker's post. Rather than trying to refute what tracker said, he attacked tracker. And, like PE said, he never defended himself against PE's case either, from what I can tell.

I'm going to look back at Neo's posts and see if I come up with anything.

sidenote: btw, I may not be able to post tomorrow. I will if I can, but it probably won't be long if any. Today was really busy and I'm barely able to post as it is. Sorry for the inactivity. It should even out as the week progresses.

[Canada]

Maybe i'm missing something but wouldn't the fact that RPG says he is playing completely different from his last game imply that he HAD talked to his scumbuddy rather than had not?

*facepaw*

Can't believe nobody realized that we took it completely backwards from the way it was meant.

Canada seems awfully quick to jump on bandwagons, and only has a few posts with any substance. Though on the latter I can't speak too much as I am probably in the same position.

I was agreeing with people. Can you please explain to me how this is jumping on bandwagons? I don't understand .

(by his reputed partner in crime PE by the way).

Hmm? What do you mean by this?

~Canada

[RPG*Twilight]

Interesting. NCJ wouldnt vote right away. But then a simple analysis (albeit confusing and clunky) from tracker and without even refuting any of what he had to say, votes him because of a mis-count (which makes his vote even more suspicious), then it seems he just "knows his true identity". That is a bit creepy, given that the only people who are "convinced they know their true identity" are the mafia themselves.

Is it enough to change my vote? I dont know, but a major FOS on NCJ is there.

FoS: NCJ

Tracker, the only thing I implore you to do on your cases is find some quotes to back it up. I mean, it's one thing to have the words there. But how did you come to that note in your case? I mean, for all we know, you could have made that out of thin air or were grasping at straws. Also, some of your findings are hard to follow because they are almost too summarized. Could you just elaborate on how you find some of these things? Most are easy, but some are a bit confusing. (Admits to going with crowd and NL=Bad. Did he say they were both bad? There's a huge difference and a huge scumtell between that, and it'd be great if there was some discernment there.)

[PaltryExcuse]

RPG: Just curious to know if you saw my case, quotes and all, on NCJ or if the FoS is just on NCJ's reaction to both cases.

[RPG*Twilight]

RPG: Just curious to know if you saw my case, quotes and all, on NCJ or if the FoS is just on NCJ's reaction to both cases.

I read your case, and it factored in. But I mainly focused in on his reaction to Tracker. I just found what he did/said to be the main part of what I needed to talk about. There was no real reason to re-hash what you said, so I decided to try to get in on another avenue.

[CommieX]

I'm really sorry I've been inactive guys, but there's been a lot of turmoil in my personal life and I just don't have time. Hopefully all of this BS will be cleared up by the weekend and I'll have some time to get a post up.

[tracker]

RPG, I'm on it, going back over my summarization now and will repost with quotes. CCD is in 15 minutes however and I'm still eating, so not sure how much I will get done, maybe more afterwards.

[Canada]

Hmm? What do you mean by this?

By this I mean why do you call PE his partner in crime?

~Canada