Newbie 871 - Game Over Town Win

[Ether]

Hi, kids. Incognito, Patrick.

To start us off on the same foot: Incognito, Patrick and I all know each other, haven't played mafia in months and have pretty similar theory. Patrick's totally rusted over and irrelevant, obv, but a part of me is nervous that Incognito and I will trip each other a couple times. And that I'll wind up focusing more attention on them than on you. But I'll try not to do that.

As my first shameful instance of focusing on them, I'm gonna point out that they're probably not scum together. Pregame phase didn't take long enough. Unless he was invisible, which I doubt, Incognito didn't sign into AIM at all last night, let alone at hours where it would be reasonable for someone at GMT+1 like Patrick to be awake. So that's nice.

One

of them, however, is absolutely a filthy scumbag trying to bump me off.

[Ether]

I would like to ask how much mafia (or close alternative) experience everyone has, as it is a newbie game this is particularly relevant. I have played a lot of face to face mafia but never an online game, I am yet to see how I will adapt.

Buncha games since around May 2006, a small minority of them off-site. My Wikiscum profile only links to games I've played on Mafiascum since mid-2007, but my playstyle's changed a lot since I started--I like to distance myself from my early games.

Annachie's first post feels weird--like someone else came up with the dichotomy there. I'm interested in his answer to your question. (But I can't see it as a scumtell.)

Lurking is a scumtell. This might be important later.

[Ether]

I wasn't on AIM between...6 and 8:30ish pm last night, EST. So, um. Feel free to correct me, you two? I'm sure you're very ethical about this sort of thing.

[Ether]

Boberz: some caveats apply, but scum benefit from not having their opinions pinned down, and townies don't. People frequently ignore lurkers when they see people who they perceive as actively scummy, which lets the lurkers fly under the radar. It's easy to lurk, and towns lose a lot of games that way.

Patrick, Incognito and I are all pretty close, and none of us particularly enjoy being scum. (Well, Incognito does.) If they were scum together, they'd need time to bitch about it. Patrick and I certainly did when we were scum together; I can link you to that QuickTopic.

Like Patrick, I'm not all that interested in your case on Incognito either way, but I think you're probably town.

Ksen's case against no-lynches only covers days that start with an odd number of players; it gets more complicated when you factor in parity and some night actions. But I'd rather not get into this. In general, lynching is good.

I didn't speak to Incognito last night. Though this deduction seems odd if you're having to take our word on that.

Yeah...when I made that first post, I kind of forgot that I hadn't been on all night. I only realized it afterward.

[Ether]

If someone doesn't post, it's lurking. If someone posts but it's not clear who it actually thinks is scum, it's active lurking.

Generally you need more than 12 hours to determine this.

(There is an online list, and a "Users browsing this forum" area. You can see who's watching Road to Rome or posting a message, unless they set themselves to invisible. I know Boberz, Incognito and you and I are all visible--don't fix that!)

[Ether]

I don't think any of us would take 72 hours as scum. 72 hours is a lot. But I do think you'd arrange some time to be on AIM together.

Not sure what I'd expect with an IC/newbie pair. (I don't seem to have the timestamp for when I confirmed in 530, although judging by my newbie scumbuddy's PM to me, the game didn't open for at least 24 hours. Incognito, you replaced into all your newbie games where you were scum, right?) I guess that's a more useful thing to figure out.

[Ether]

I'm going to take your word for this and write you off as town. Awesome.

I don't think Patrick's been scum in a newbie game in ages. Replacements included, he was probably a newbie last time himself.

the 'tricky half of Pathetric, though.

You know, every time I worry that I'm saying something that might alienate the newbies, you remind me that I could be doing so much more. ♥

[Ether]

Annachie: We've all been talking for years, but not about this game. I promise that any coordination will be shamelessly in-thread. Could you elaborate on how that discussion played out in 844, or should it wait?

Meh. Can sort of see it.

Why "meh?"

[Ether]

I'd certainly say someone's active lurking if it keeps consistently asking questions without showing signs of drawing conclusions. I usually wouldn't accuse someone of active lurking over an individual post, but I wouldn't do that if the post was a joke, either. Lurking is a pattern sort of thing.

I'll answer your question after you say how

you

feel about us.

[Ether]

Elaborate?

May I wait until a few other people weigh in on this stuff, too, before giving my own take? (I'm prepared to do it now, but I'm really more interested in getting content from you six. I figure Patrick and Incognito should be fairly simple--meta is nice like that.)

[Ether]

Hi, Herd.

[Ether]

I'm not sure how much to attribute to their experience and prior interactions,

How much of what?

What do you think about Annachie?

[Ether]

Having experience with each other would hurt us as scum, not as town. Anything that they know to hide, they'd have to hide anyway. But I know what to look for, and what feels off.

Annachie, uh, did give an opinion when asked.

[Ether]

Herd would be a decent start. But I'm too lazy to vote today. Maybe tomorrow.

I'd rather see Annachie hold off on interpreting Randal's play until after Randal's made a few more posts.

[Ether]

Wait, wait, wait.

Being drunk makes you

less

confident now?

[Ether]

Hey. It's more than what other people have.

Incognito's right; that isn't what people generally mean when they IGMEOY. It means "I'm slightly suspicious of this person." (Personally, I think IGMEOYS and FoSes are a waste of time, but many people disagree.)

[Ether]

No worries. I can deal with those two.

I agree with Incognito that it's null and depends on the person. I'm not interested in pursuing this line of thought.

[Ether]

We

are

a large force, and like I said, we have similar ideas on theory--but if all three of us agree on something, there's probably a reason for that. So...I don't particularly care if you're wary, but don't try putting that into a case.

I'm still not interested in your Incoghate. Having said that, my 51 was a serious question to him: I'm surprised that he put off reacting to my Herdhate.

[Ether]

My main issue with Herd isn't the AIM thing or the random vote.

You've got a point on Ksen, actually. I've been filtering out the no lynch discussion entirely, but it's true that he hasn't...done anything else. Ksen, who's scum?

(Patrick, why did you ask for my read on him instead of his read on other people? What do you hope to gain from continuing to grill him about the no lynch discussion?)

Incognito is correct about Starkmoon never editing the confirmations. (Or at least, not editing the thread until up to an hour before she unlocked it, which is around when I went to bed.) I assumed your point was that scum wouldn't realize this immediately. I sort of think you'd be more likely to keep checking back as scum, and your header felt kinda genuine, so I'm gonna take those as town tells.

[Ether]

Darth and Annachie I am keen to hear not a direct meta of each other, but perhaps an overview of how you will try to read each other later, or indeed already.

I don't think it's likely that they have more than an overview of each other, incidentally. It's just one game. (And I'd still prefer that they wait. Where's Randal?)

[Ether]

Heh. Everyone's coming up with all these completely different tells on Herd. I admit that, even though I support the Herdhate, I don't really understand your reason for voting.

I'd like Patrick to post more, yeah. But I would guess that he's town.

[Ether]

Fair enough. His take on Annachie is what bothers me, too.

[Ether]

Not really sympathetic toward Herd's post.

I don't actually think the AIM stuff specifically would hamper Incognito or Patrick being scum; just them being scum

together

. (However, I've found reasons to write off each of them independently.) Elaborate on your train of thought there?

Boberz, Incognito was talking about Patrick. He just talks funny sometimes.

[Ether]

Like I said:

I would

[stretch confirmations out as scum]

. Most def.

I don't really think Incognito would do this in practice, but I think it's more likely he'd

believe

he'd do this if he's only been town in non-replacement newbie games like this one.

It's nice to be in a game where I can actually get some reads.

This is meta: Patrick hasn't signed up for a lot of games lately, and hasn't gotten a good grip on them when he has. This comment feels genuine to me.

There was something else in 61, but now I'm sort of thinking I shouldn't use it. Dunno. I still think confirmation WIFOM sort of points in his favor.

[Ether]

I can sympathize with that. But you should still give very quick impressions from your skim right now. Feel free to then change your mind.

[Ether]

Now that it is tomorrow, I feel that it is time to

vote: ksen

.

I consciously waited to do that.

-

Herd: Incognito's online without being on AIM all the time. Patrick sometimes is, though it's harder to keep track 'cause he's invisible. Both of them are guaranteed to have logged in at least once between when roles were sent out and the thread was unlocked, so yeah.

Patrick: Fair enough on both of those. I'm a bit impatient, I guess. I was (and still am) unsure why you asked me specifically for my thoughts there, but I don't care enough to press.

[Ether]

So would you people stop staring and comment on Ksen yet? (I'm looking at you, Herd.)

[Ether]

I typed up a paragraph elaborating on my stance on Ksen, but I want to see more reactions, too.

I wouldn't recommend not posting at all while you wait for other to check in, though. It's a bad habit to get into--and it's just not a fun way to play, you know? (I'd call it scummy, but everyone else also did it, including people I'm more suspicious of anyway. So yeah.)

Having said that, I know that Herd's been online at least three times since I initially placed that vote, including at least once after I called him out directly. Randal's been around, too. (As for Yarmond, I'm not sure if he even knows the thread's open.

Mod:

I know the thread hasn't been open for 72 hours yet, but can you poke him?)

[Ether]

My post drew attention to the fact that I'm stalling--not posting at all, or posting but ignoring the Ksenvote feels shadier. And when everyone stares at each other and waits for someone else to make the first move, that just waits time. (You did post eventually; I'm not being accusatory here.) Like I said, it's a bad habit to get into.

Most of the profiles on Wikiscum are maintained by their corresponding players, even though anyone can edit them. The other articles are written by whoever wants to write them. (The History part of each page might give a hint.) Half the tells are either obsolete or were never true at all, but it does give you an idea of the weird beliefs some players hold.

Speaking of weird beliefs, this thread about commonly-abused "tells" is recommended reading.

[Ether]

That thread is satiric. Unexplained voting isn't scummy, but some people think it is. It's one of those things some players (including some ICs) will spring on you without knowing what they're talking about. (My posts on pages 2 and 3 are serious, though. WIFOM isn't a very useful word to throw around.)

I'm not actually sure if my advice on posting would help or hurt you in games without me. I mean, it works for me, and it definitely matches my own preferences and helps keep discussion from stalling, but a lot of towns don't recognize lurkers as a problem.

Herd and Annachie signed in without taking said advice. ¬_¬

What I said in my profile is true, but I try not to play it up too much except as a last resort. I don't expect to be under a lot of pressure this game, so feel free to read me the hard way.

[Ether]

The logic doesn't really make sense to me, either. It's just something people get into their heads. Looking through past games:

Scum would love to vote someone without giving a reason.

If you are town, why would you do it. You say for reactions. You will look a little scummy, but you will see how the town reacts. Just to make it absurd, would you also hammer a un-cc cop?

Why wouldn't you give reasons? Now we can't be sure that you have them.

I want to know reasons when players vote as it can give the voters time to come up with an excuse why they voted that player and it gives them an excuse to unvote when they need to. I don't trust this kind of play.

Yeah, I feel the same way. This is a pretty slow day. (I'd count being online and not posting--like what Herd's doing--as standard lurking, incidentally. Genuinely not being around is inactivity, and it gets you replaced. Eventually.)

I'm all for other people bringing up points of discussion--technically, Patrick was the one who drew my attention to Ksen. But this is my normal posting style. I sometimes slow down, but it's not intentional--it means I'm bored, and it weakens my grip on a game.

[Ether]

He

[ksen]

hasn't really said much else, which isn't a scum tell unless it lasts longer than it has.

I just don't like how he's

[Annachie's]

asking for who we suspect but hasn't said anything about it himself since his gut feeling about the three ICs.

Could you elaborate on the difference here?

I disagree with Annachie. Someone who votes without an explanation should be prepared to spell it out later--so scum can't really hide behind them--but it doesn't make manipulation any easier. If someone isn't scummy, people won't vote it.

It only paints a target if people believe that it's a scumtell. Which it isn't.

What do you think of my vote?

power role)

How would this possibly be a good idea?

[Ether]

I can sympathize with that. But you should still give very quick impressions from your skim right now. Feel free to then change your mind.

Don't put off posting to make your posts look more thorough. You'll just put them off longer and longer as you keep playing, and then nobody's happy.

[Ether]

Seriously, man. You're thinking too hard on this.

[Ether]

Pfft. Dangerous? Me?

Elaborate on ksen and Annachie.

You didn't give a single "quick impression" until the post right above mine. You took over 24 hours to get your "full reread tonight," and your 96 managed to be huge but again avoid giving the slightest indication of your reads. It's nice that you like my playstyle and all, but you didn't say a thing you couldn't have covered on Page 1.

Why would you ever

need

that much time to answer a simple question, when I explicitly asked you to be spontaneous and worry about fleshing it out later?

[Ether]

Incognito, only one of the three games are ongoing. This is one of those forums where every day gets a separate thread. I'm totally unclear on what everyone's roles were in one of the completed games, though, and it didn't have a true informed minority anyway. Ksen, you got any scum games to link to?

I can understand Patrick's sympathy for Randal's post. I don't really share it. It is possible that I am biased.

I've recently calmed down on Herd a little and tensed up on Annachie, but I don't have good reasons for either of these. I agree that the rolefishing isn't a reliable tell.

Don't like it?

Find an excuse to vote me.

This could happen yet. But I still prefer my current ksenvote.

You haven't answered my questions--either of them. (Don't get all self-righteous with me. I don't count "I'm unable to come up with genuine suspicions on the fly because that's my playstyle" as an answer.)

Who do you think are scum?

You.

[Ether]

power role)

How would this possibly be a good idea?

Well, just off of the top of my head it's the perfect opertunity for a doctor to point the finger at someone and say "I think that person is a cop".

This conversation stops right now.

[Ether]

Boberz, the paragraph I held off on earlier was:

I see the no lynch argument as Ksen's way of getting out of having arguments about things that actually matter--like who's scum. I think town would be more likely to drop it, or at least put it on a back burner. I'm also not amused by the part where he disappeared as soon as Patrick called him out--even when he was explicitly told that he wasn't scumhunting enough, he didn't start putting effort in.

Herd's last post bugs me again. I want both Herd and Annachie to elaborate on each other. (I don't see hypocrisy as a scumtell, incidentally, and I think Herd is understating Annachie's content in contrast to Ksen's.)

The small text rule generally prevents stuff you have to copy and paste to read--size 8 is perfectly legible at a glance. If Starkmoon asked me to stop, I would, but I've never played under a mod who cared. She certainly didn't last time.

How does that have anything to do with anything? Seriously.

Already did that here:

I mean games in which you were scum.

[Ether]

8 kids at home

You poor sucker. If you're really missing the small text notes, though, I'll try to stick to parentheses in the future. I hope your wife feels better soon.

I don't see how you could miss Incognito's questions when he linked to the post; it wasn't that big. What he asked was,

Herd I suspect of ducking questions and content. Perhaps being a touch confrontational. I really don't like his professed love of random voting.

What areas of the thread have you found to be examples of confrontational behavior coming from herd? Do you think herd's been more confrontational than, say, Ether?

I want to know similar: I'm not wild about your Herdvote, and I want to know why your one-line case against him is more damning than other people you listed.

I am still voting ksen. Hmm hmm.

[Ether]

Ksen and Boberz, can you not fit so many damn quote tags into your posts? A page of those just makes my eyes glaze over. You only need one or two.

Can I ask Patrick ether and incog: is bad theory scummy? I do not really think it is but there might be logic i havent heard.

Just in a vacuum: if the person is using the bad theory as an excuse to make a play that hurts the town, and you think it ought to know better, sure. Otherwise, I wouldn't trust that as a tell too far. Of course, focusing on any kind of theory--good or bad--in favor of scumhunting is a way to active lurk.

Incognito's note on the rigged IC thing is actually a decent point; I hadn't thought about it that way. It'll be cool if it actually works. (The rest of Incognito's stuff doesn't make me more sympathetic. The Boberzvote gives me a bit of pause independently. It's a really dumb vote, though; Boberz is town.)

I'm feeling a bit ambivalent right now. On the bright side, I can use this as my excuse to

unvote; vote: DarthRandal1138

. Awesome.

[Ether]

By "Boberzvote," I was criticizing Ksen's vote on you, not your vote on him.

What do you think of my Randalvote?

[Ether]

Ether, can you explain the sympathy thing you felt with respect to Randal and Patrick's feeling for him?

My "sympathy" was me sweetly agreeing that work sucks, but he still needed to post. Patrick was presumably taking his indignation about how I could possibly want him out of the background as a town tell.

I don't have anything logical to say against the Herdhate. It's annoying; you could easily be right. I agree that he needs to get back to us, too.

[Ether]

If I had a proper town read on him, gut or not, I'd be fighting his wagon harder.

Dunno. I'm not interested in it, but I get the sense I probably should be. I think it's likely that my subconscious is just being funny because I was actively pushing Ksen over Herd earlier and was impatient with the people who weren't. I should look at that earlier stuff again.

[Ether]

Boberz, I'm confused by your ideas about pressure. We pressured Ksen. The rest of us decided that his reactions (or whatever) implied townishness, and decided to move on to pressure other players. That's...pretty much how it works. Some people are pressuring Herd now; I'm voting Randal. (Herd's at -2 like ksen was, though you probably shouldn't use that to read into my decision not to vote him. I wasn't really keeping track of the votecount.) Do you think it hurts the town that the vote is split?

Herd, hypocrisy isn't the tell you want in either of those cases. "Requesting opinions that [one has] not yet divulged [itself]" isn't a tell at all; it's a helpful scumhunting method which I for one use constantly. Not posting much content is a scumtell in and of itself.

I think the blatantly dodging questions thing is true.

What do you think about Randal? And yeah, same question as Incognito.

[Ether]

Also people were expected to follow the lead of one or two of the more experienced players

Totally off-topic: what do you mean, "expected?" Didn't they try to get you to do your own thing at least early on so they could read you?

Boberz, a vote has as much meaning as you give it. I think there are better ways to force scum to commit to stuff. (Asking them is one. Having multiple wagons is another, though of course that's not the main reason I'm voting Randal right now.) I'm not really sure what else to say--pressure is useful, but you can generally produce enough pressure on your own to get results if you're vocal enough.

I think Ksen's been all right lately; I haven't been perceiving his recent play as mistakes in the first place. But as it happens, I

am

voting the guy who makes a point of thinking before he speaks. (Also, he's less than 12 hours away from a prod.)

I'm being shockingly lax about spamming this game today.

[Ether]

Do I

really

have to read back and give a researched answer? They're both town.

Mod:

prod DarthRandal1138, please. What's the status on Yarmond?

[Ether]

Leading the town isn't a scumtell. I'm not sure why people think it is. Leading the town is like...the opposite of not being proactive.

"Not being proactive" would definitely be a scumtell in my book, especially when it's someone who's supposed to be good. But I disagree with Herd's analysis of him; Incognito is fine. Boberz's last posts make me want to be cooperative even less. I'm not going to help you spread paranoia about the players I think are town, experienced or not. I have my own priorities. (Plus I'm still too lazy to come up with a real answer.)

I can see why Ether can be considered town having checked a meta or two,

Equally I think Ether is good enough to fool us in day 1/2 so all three of you still worry me.

Which is it?

I'm not sure what you're asking about Yarmond.

This game is at a standstill because 3/4ths of the people we need better reads on have vanished. Buuuuuuuuuuuuut I'll probably be spending at least some of the weekend interacting with my family, too.

[Ether]

It would make sense if you hadn't invoked meta. Since you did, it doesn't.

It depends on the independent player. I think we'd kind of need an independent player for this.

[Ether]

A couple of things i noticed, she tended to push minor tells very quickly and hard, in this game she has let a few minor things go. She posted quickly at first and it slowed, to a point where she went three or four days without a post on more than one occasion. She also appeared to pick fights (in a nice way) in a way she hasnt done here.

That is...about ½ for 3. I'm not even sure where you got most of that. (Which is not to say that I'm above meta in general. Not even a little.)

I'm going to calmly nod along to Incognito's interrogation without actually moving my vote.

[Ether]

I want Boberz to elaborate on why he's voting Ksen as opposed to DarthRandal/Herd/Annachie. Do not use the word "mistake" or any synonym of it.

*Crosses fingers*

I got some reading to do,

Unvote

I realised I should have probably done that before going AWOL

Sooooooooooooooooo...

[Ether]

I am synchronized. You may have noticed that. It is 5:50 am EST, I have a class at 10, and

after

distracting myself up through about an hour ago, giving up and getting into bed, I then promptly felt a strong compulsion to catch up.

I don't see how I could possibly regret this four hours from now! Let's roll.

Incognito and Patrick are town because they don't feel like they could be scum. That's it. For all the paranoia Annachie's pushing, it doesn't feel like he's actually taking it upon himself to figure out our alignments: just harass us the rest of us for our reads and get disappointed when he doesn't get the answer he wants. I keep wavering over whether this is actually a scumtell, but any details about my thought process will have to wait for an hour when I can think straight.

Darth, the best of the four. He criticised me when most were calling me town. when he did post he provided a bit more substance, but not much.

Ksen white noise white noise, white noise, which makes people lose any important bits, which makes him very scummy in my eytes. This is worse than being contentless, because he is contentless but tries to look like he has content meanwhile conversing with us about other things which is possibly distracting.

Without checking back, I don't think Ksen's later posts were white noise (and I do think pretty much everything of Randal's was). Why do you see Randal's criticism of you as townish?

Tyrope's posts seem all right to me. (Don't give commentary on ongoing games, though.)

Hi, RayFrost! I spent Monday reading about how hacking Pokémon games like I want to learn how to do is related to the computer class I am failing. With that in mind, I hope with all my heart and soul that you enjoyed the act of filling out that form. Also, I think you're scum.

[Ether]

Meh. I don't see that as him thinking independently; I just see it as him trying to keep his options open and give a bit of lip service. It wasn't even a good point; it was from Page 1. (Though to be fair, you were still voting Incognito at the time.)

On a related note, I think it's more likely Randal would have OMGUSed me (or at least lashed out in some way) as town. It makes his self-righteous remark before my vote feel more like posturing.

[Ether]

I know that feeling. The first part, not the lost opportunity part. (But I'm back to normal.)

one or both of them.

Why both?

Mod:

I'm still voting RayFrost. So are Incognito and ksen. (If you removed our votes in light of his replacement, which you shouldn't have, then

vote: RayFrost

again.)

[Ether]

I don't remember walls of text, though I suppose having been around at the time might bias me. You should really start from the beginning: this game didn't really have much of a random phase.

Especially since, y'know, I'm voting you. You should absolutely be jumping through hoops for me right now.

Taking it off both of them would make a partnership much less obvious, does that make sense. It would be risky for someone to just take pressure off one person for fear someone would notice. Btw this does not necessarily mean that that person is definately mafia but i think a scum side idea.

I'm not following your trail of logic at all. If Ksen and/or Herd is town, how would it be a scummy to deflect the wagon onto someone else who might not be town? Taking pressure off of someone isn't scummy in the first place--in fact, Incognito's defense of Ksen was outright townish--so it isn't something "someone would notice."

[Ether]

I know nothing of the sort. And I say you do.

For what it's worth, I'll be on-hand to provide witty and profound encouragement and try to sustain your will to live.

[Ether]

I don't have chocolate chip cookies. I do have tortilla chips, though. And cheese. If you weren't here, I'd probably be out cooking a real dinner right now, but I recognize my duty to this game and its players.

[Ether]

(And for once, I'm not saying that in a way that's meant to imply that you don't. I'm just poking fun at my own priorities here.)

[Ether]

You don't believe a word you just said.

[Ether]

RayFrost.

You are still putting off this game.

Are you ashamed of yourself yet?

[Ether]

Why?

[Ether]

Uh, hi? I'm resolved just fine.

[Ether]

As for your...case:

Yes, I was afraid that Incognito and I would steal each other's lines. How is that remotely unreasonable? I'm still posting and giving my own opinions. And I don't see how that second quote, in which I write off another player as someone whose lynch I would not support, is "setting up excuses" even to that degree.

I don't get the logic of the second part at all. You...appear to be accusing me of oh-so-subtly

claiming

scum, and saying that maybe if I'd been my "confession" had been less serious, that would be okay and not scummy. What?

I didn't expect Boberz to vote me, and even if I did, the purpose of my question doubled as a way to get his stances on those players down and think about them (players on my own maybe list). I have less interest in how people behave toward me: I already know my alignment. Again, I'm not even sure what the point of that paragraph was.

As for the wagoning: I was the first person to vote both Ksen and Randal/RayFrost. Others made the decision to follow me. (I was also the first person to

unvote

Ksen.) Not my problem. (Nor is it a problem at all.)

I think you just wanted to vote me, looked through my posts for excuses, couldn't find any and made some shit up. Why?

[Ether]

Ray. Status update.

[Ether]

Page?

[Ether]

[Ether]

Did you draw it? I remember your style being fuzzier.

Tyrope's getting close to 48 hours.

but one thing I learned from my first two games. When people are certain, it's for one reason only. They know.

I didn't see this. On top of everything else, I want a link to scum acting remotely like I am.

[Ether]

What do you think of RayFrost?

In fact, List every player in the game.

[Ether]

Oh. By "separate," you were referring to Boberz's question.

In that case, answer my other stuff, too.

[Ether]

The order's wrong now, though.

What's the status on Herd?

[Ether]

Did Herd pick up his prod?

[Ether]

Boberz: what are you struggling to answer, exactly? Are you trying to explain the train of thought you had on the fate of the Herd- and Ksenwagons, or to justify that it's still valid? If it's the latter, have you considered that it isn't?

[Ether]

It is bad. Don't lurk.

RayFrost has been perfectly up-front about the fact that he hasn't actually read the thread because he doesn't want to commit to positions and help us find his scumbuddy before we put him out of his misery in a week. I'm not even worrying about him anymore, really.

What do you think of the Annachie stuff? Didn't you say you were planning to go back over us?

[Ether]

You haven't actually answered my question. Which are you trying to do?

[Ether]

Boberz's last post on the Herd/Ksen stuff doesn't make his viewpoint any less foggy to me. It's a conspiracy theory. It's him being bitter about some dead wagons he liked. (Especially because, working off memory, there was a chronological order to those wagons. You're saying that if Ksen was scum, a scumbag who wasn't Herd came up with an

elaborate plan

to deflect town wagons just so it could have an excuse to someday clear Ksen. No.) Have you actually looked back at why those wagons failed and tried to glean something, or are you just trying to justify yourself?

(Also off of memory,

I

broke the Herdwagon--by voting and drawing attention to Ksen. Then Incognito prompted Patrick and me to break the Ksenwagon. We're all town, of course.)

Can you honestly tell me that no-one has ever questioned you for using definitave statements about someone being town. Especially when based on a players say so?

Yes, I've been attacked before by scumbags and ignorant newbies who don't appreciate me clearing the (town) players they want to be suspicious of. What does that have to do with my request for an example? You said you had them. Why haven't you actually answered my request--or, for that matter, reacted to my defense, commented on RayFrost or provided a List like I asked?

[Ether]

I am fed up of this argument

Why? You're the one who took ages to post it.

and unless I feel you actually move the debate forward rather than just say the same things I will just ignore posts on this subject.

Where did I repeat myself?

I understand you just fine. I think you're clinging to a bad pet theory and wasting a lot of time trying to justify it instead of asking yourself whether it really deserves that justification (or even checking who it actually incriminates), but I'm fully aware of what you're

trying

to get at.

Incidentally, Annachie's logged on and seen my post to him, and is still not talking to me head-on. Don't you hate it when people can't take responsibility for their votes?

[Ether]

Boberz, that's not how I see it. Myself, I think you're the one dragging it out. I think this is all a waste of time, but you seem interested in it.

If you think it's useful and won't listen to reason, then you should really just stop arguing about its theory and see who it incriminates already. (Like I said, that'll probably be Incognito and me.)

Tyrope, you've already read the game--the stuff you're lurking over is stuff that's currently happening. So...I'm not really sure how you'd fare better in a game you didn't replace into. The only way to get a proper grip in a game is to stop lurking-you'll just pick up a backlog that way--and start questioning people and discussing your suspicions. Coincidentally, that's also the only reliable way for us to read

you

.

[Ether]

what should I be thinking?

Why don't you tell me?

That's a serious question: why

haven't

you told us?

[Ether]

Boberz: I dimly remember you mentioning that your point would be moot if both Herd and Ksen came up town, but not you wanting to wait to see whether they actually would or not. Fair enough--I won't push this matter, but I do think that when the time comes, you should stick to analyzing their wagons individually.

I like Boberz's reaction to Incognito's observation on Tyrope, as well as the observation itself. I support lynching Herd's replacement and Annachie when RayFrost comes up scum. Probably in that order.

Annachie: Freud was dumb. I'm not trying to be offensive here, but don't try appealing to your experience until you actually have some.

The three of us who've have the most experience at reading people--

especially

each other--are all vouching for each other, and despite token "I'm definitely not certain only scum are certain!" disclaimers, you're acting pretty much unwilling to consider that our accuracy might possibly be better than 42%. (Which isn't even especially an especially

low

gambler's fallacy.) I do not see how that could possibly not count as paranoia.

Posts like that shouldn't take you two and a half hours. You didn't even do anything in it.

Why haven't you actually answered my request--or, for that matter, reacted to my defense, commented on RayFrost or provided a List like I asked?

I'm really sick of repeating myself for you.

[Ether]

Annachie, are you going to fucking commit to RayFrost yet?

Incog, is there a reason you seem to jump to Ether's defense so readily?

Because I'm town?

[Ether]

Watch him not commit to RayFrost.

[Ether]

Temporary

unvote

. I don't want RayFrost selfhammering before the Herd replacement gets here.

What the hell took you to comment on him

at all?

(And I've been asking that for ages.)

I'm still working on the stuff the Incog posted 4 hours ago (As I type).

Yes, of course you're talking to the guy you're only indirectly suspicious of. Of course it's not worth your precious kid time to respond to

my

posts and

my

responses.

Incognito is not a "worthwhile lynch" because Incognito is town.

[Ether]

It occurs to me that I'm getting riled up over someone who has no credibility, and who I'm suspicious of and can just lynch tomorrow.

Carry on, guys.

[Ether]

Temporary

unvote

. I don't want RayFrost selfhammering before the Herd replacement gets here.

Please pay attention, Annachie.

Since when do you take Incognito's thoughts seriously?

[Ether]

Or--even worse--seeing

my

vote as a good reason to join me. Remember that part where you were hell-bent on reading me as scum in spite of all logic and reason and experienced advice to the contrary?

Incidentally, RayFrost signed up for another game.

[Ether]

Uh, no you don't? And RayFrost isn't "game mechanics and strategy and stuff" any more than I am.

Scumbags sometimes selfhammer to end the day before the town is ready to stop discussing stuff. Having said that, once Herd is replaced, I'm pretty much ready to kill RayFrost.

[Ether]

Can someone please enlighten me on the Rayfrost case?

What do you think it is?

Why are you focusing on Boberz in that post? How would his unvote be suspicious at all if RayFrost wasn't scum?

[Ether]

Speaking of which, call me when we're proceeding onward.

[Ether]

Don't listen to him. Incognito has no respect for anything.

[Ether]

I'm pretty much ready when the rest of you are. I don't particularly care whether Yankee reads or not at this point.

Ksen's top three is the same as mine (in that order), but RayFrost is the only person I am willing to lynch today.

[Ether]

I know what you meant.

[Ether]

Don't worry about it too much. We're lynching you tomorrow anyway.

Expect me to put my vote back sometime tomorrow afternoon. The deadline is only...what, 54 hours away?

[Ether]

Yeah, uh. It's not lost on me that you only dropped me when I threatened to lynch you.

Having said that, I'll probably be on Yankee's case tomorrow anyway.

[Ether]

Seven posts after this, yes. (Which was eight posts after I had actually cursed.)

[Ether]

Elaborate?

[Ether]

Should have reread overnight. Didn't.

Most important thing to note is that I don't think Annache and Herd are scum together. That forces me to look over my current backup list, Tyrope and Ksen. I, too, find it unlikely that Ksen would nightkill Incognito, which reflects badly on Tyrope.

Concerned replaces herd456.

Er, don't we already have one of those?

[Ether]

They kept feuding yesterday.

[Ether]

That's not the most likely explanation. Having said that, whether Herd was actually under proper pressure or not at the time is something I should probably check for.

Tyrope voted Herd upon replacing in, too. Um.

[Ether]

Hi. Without having read up yet, my computer's with the help desk right now: it hasn't been able to get online since Sunday. I don't need a prod.

[Ether]

On Tyrope's third point alone, I'm tempted to vote him.

[Ether]

I reread most of the game without absorbing a word. I feel like I had a lobotomy.

Having said that, Tyrope/Annachie is the most likely pair. Largely from finding reasons to write off Yankee/Tyrope and Yankee/Annachie. Yankee felt like a fallguy to me early in the day. (I am not interested in pursuing Boberz or Patrick as scum, and I think Ksen is unlikely as well.)

Other people also coming to that conclusion. Cool. The Tyropewagon is fine by me.

I'd like to see more from Ether, or at least an acknowledgement that she'll get to it after her exam on Monday.

I was synchronized. I'm more efficient with the rest of my life when I'm not busy feeling guilty about putting off mafia games. I guess I should probably work some more studying into the weekend, but it's not the cause for my recent inactivity.

[Ether]

I was utter crap here. Wrote off both scumbags fairly early, and then I fell apart completely on Day 2: nothing made sense anymore, and I didn't recover. Ugh. (For what it's worth, I wasn't intentionally giving off cop tells, or even thinking of the possibility--but this is like the third game where my play inadvertently got on the scum's radar as such. For Patrick, too. He

knows

my track record on that. So that's cool.)

The rest of you did good, though. Patrick was indeed a dirty rotten despicable filthy no-good degenerate immoral wicked horrid loathesome sinful vile murderous hateful foul thesaurus abhorrent detestable shameless indecent evil contemptible and all-around bad guy, and I'm glad you brought him to justice in the end.

[Ether]

find me on AIM (Ether will probably laugh at this one but psh).

*laughs*

[Ether]

I'd have definitely used the first person. Having said that, I tend to be the rough one who sets newbies on edge, and Patrick tends to be the charismatic one who has to then bail me out.