Newbie 871 - Game Over Town Win

[Ether]

Seriously, man. You're thinking too hard on this.

[DarthRandal1138]

First, some specific responses:

Don't put off posting to make your posts look more thorough.

Not "putting off posting." I skimmed the new content in the thread, gave some "quick impressions," per your earlier advice, and then commenced a complete reread. If my posts "look thorough," it's because I'm *being* thorough. In the future, I'd appreciate if you'd give me more than 20-ish minutes before you bust me for lurking.

@Incognito: /tips hat

Am I right in saying that you encourage random voting throughout the day, unless a person does something particularly suspicious?

Nope. That was a goof on my part. Should have read:

A random

lynch

is almost inevitable D1(…)

Bold part fixxored.

In general, the D1 lynch is "random" in the sense that there's generally very little to go on, barring any major scumslips. A D1 mislynch is nigh-inevitable, just based on the numbers.

However, that's not what Annachie was asking. I don't think a random *vote* should ever lead to a lynch. The RVS can be very useful for gathering information, but at some point, the town needs to "get down to business" and start scumhunting. That phase began very early in this game, to the point that there was hardly any RVS at all.

(The miscommunication, by the way, was due to the fact that this was sort of a continuation, as Annachie has mentioned, of a conversation we had in our previous game together. I was in the mindset of discussing random/reasoned *lynches*, while Annachie was asking about random/reasoned *votes*. My apologies for the misunderstanding, and my delay in responding to it.)

Now, for some thoughts on individual posters:

Annachie

The only player here I have any direct experience with, but nothing I'd call a "meta" yet. Seems fairly town to me, and is participating well.

However, this:

(Anything: town, scum,

power role

)

(Emphasis mine)

…is troubling. Rolefishing much? There's no benefit to asking about potential power roles, especially this early. At any rate, with no night phase yet, I'm not sure how anyone is supposed to have *any* opinion on any potential power roles. Not liking this train of thought at all…

boberz

Townish. I especially like his asking about everyone's prior experience. Just because someone has a recent join date, that doesn't mean that they're new to the game.

Not sure what to make of his vote on Incog, though. Some of his reasoning is a bit off, particularly the accusation of buddying for repeating his (boberz') question to me. I also don't get why trying to "hook scum" is a scum tell. If Incog was attempting to lay a trap to draw out scum with his vote on Ether, wouldn't that imply that Incog is town?

DarthRandal1138

A rock. Utterly, utterly town. Shame he's the strong silent type…

(Seriously, Ether, I know I've been quiet. I should be more active going into the holiday week.)

Ether

Generally town, though I wouldn't really expect a player of Ether's calibre to slip up as scum this early in the game.
That said, I really am finding her town thus far. The "Hi, Herd" poke, as well as her dogged pursuit of one of the more inveterate lurkers (/sheepish :p ), both seem to be the actions of a town player. An active scum player can make good use of townie lurkers, but she has mostly been trying to keep everyone's posting levels up. More posts = more information, and more information only benefits the town.

herd456

His random vote, cast somewhat after the RVS had clearly ended, combined with this general lack of activity (as well as his lack of content when he *does* post) are pinging my scumdar. Not quite ready for a vote yet, but I'll be watching.

Incognito

Has been posting lots of quality content. When I read his iso, I was surprised to see he only has 10 posts thus far. With the amount of content he's put out, I had assumed his post count would actually be higher. Solid town read, but, as with Ether, I think he's good enough to play very town as scum, especially this early. I've got a good feeling, but I'll be keeping my eyes open.

ksen

Not really liking all the back-and-forth about the whole "not reading the OP" discussion. I really got the impression that he *didn't* read the rules, and then tried to cover for it. That said, I don't really think that not reading the rules is a tell. I think that scum (even newbscum) would be more likely to read the rules thoroughly than newbtown, so as to avoid exactly such a slip. I don't think it's anything we can read to much into, but I think his repeated denials and covering *do* bear observation.

Patrick

No strong read one way or the other. As such he is, by default, the most suspicious of our three potentially dangerous experienced players, and will be watched accordingly. It is, of course, still early.

Yarmond

Is this guy even playing? I'd be very happy to provide my thoughts on him (or her), just as soon as he (or she) gives us something to go on.

TL;DR

:
(1)

FOS: herd456 & ksen

(2) Patrick, Ether, and Incognito all bear watching, as any of them as scum could be very, very dangerous.
(3)

Vote: Yarmond

, until he/she gets in here and starts talking.

(Preview edit:)

@Ether: Back off. I'll take exactly as long as I want to to formulate my posts. If you don't like it, log off and quit waiting.

[Ether]

Pfft. Dangerous? Me?

Elaborate on ksen and Annachie.

You didn't give a single "quick impression" until the post right above mine. You took over 24 hours to get your "full reread tonight," and your 96 managed to be huge but again avoid giving the slightest indication of your reads. It's nice that you like my playstyle and all, but you didn't say a thing you couldn't have covered on Page 1.

Why would you ever

need

that much time to answer a simple question, when I explicitly asked you to be spontaneous and worry about fleshing it out later?

[DarthRandal1138]

(...)when I explicitly asked you to be spontaneous and worry about fleshing it out later?

You can "explicitly ask" whatever you like; I'm not spontaneous and I'm not going to try to be.

I'll take however long I like to answer a question, simple or no.

I dictate my playstyle, not you or anyone else.

Don't like it?

Find an excuse to vote me.

[boberz]

Darth, Incog has already asked me about the hooking scum thing, and why i found it scummy. Was it not sufficient?

I don't think buddying is what I called it it is not what I think it is. More confidence building, again (by Patrick I think) I have been asked about this already. Was my answer not sufficient?

The point on power roles has already been said.

In fact every point you make has already been made. The only new thing you seem to add is an explanation of you early misunderstanding (which I can accept) and an unsubstatiated neutral suspicion on Patrick.

I do not like that post Darth for such a big one it seems to add very little.

[boberz]

Incog you ask me why I call you out specifically. Two reasons.

My vote is still on you but I am considering moving it, I wanted to hear more from you.

Secondly I had previously asked others to come in on the discussion, and they hadnt. I thought I had more chance with you.

[Annachie]

Yarmond, Herd, Darth.

The three with the lowest post count.

and I did mean anything, not that I expected any comment on power rolls.


Incogg|Ether|Patrick. Our experienced trio.
Town, I think, though I am worried about two of them being scum I tend to doubt it.
(

Question:

SE's and IC's have the same chance of being scum as everybody else right?)
Ether does worry me slightly by her frequent use of small text. Incog, Patrick. Is that something she does a lot? Also with the frequency and amount of her posting. Don't know how to read that though. Scum would try and post less not more right?

Me|Boberz|Ksen|Herd

Me, town obviously Ok, not obviously. That's part of what we're all trying to work out.
Boberz town I think. Seems to be actively scum hunting
Ksen. A worry. Like someone from my last game (Pyro), he seems to be actracting a lot of attention for weird things. The number of scum, (aparently) not reading the rules. Stuff like that.
Herd I suspect of ducking questions and content. Perhaps being a touch confrontational. I really don't like his professed love of random voting.

Darth|Yarmond.

Worrying due to their post count/frequency. Darth, at least, I know to be playing like he did previously. But then he attracted suspicion in that game too. Maybe a touch more confrontational recently.
Yarmond, What one post? No posts? Helloo!! (2 hours off a prod I think)

Vote Herd456

[Patrick]

I don't actually see Darth's slight delays in posting as being scummy, and his post 103 seemed vaguely town to me for some reason. However, the content of his posts is uninspiring and seems mostly to be rehashes of things said by other people. I don't see how herd's random vote was a scumtell, and I'm not wild about how Annarchie used this as part of a reason to vote herd either, in a way that seems like vague following without really explaining why it's scummy. I'd like to see a complete thought process as to why it's more likely done by scum.

Annachie: you didn't explain why you suggested ksen talks about who might be a powerole. Did it ever come up in your previous game that outing poweroles is generally bad?

(Question: SE's and IC's have the same chance of being scum as everybody else right?)
Ether does worry me slightly by her frequent use of small text. Incog, Patrick. Is that something she does a lot? Also with the frequency and amount of her posting. Don't know how to read that though. Scum would try and post less not more right?

All roles are determined randomly, so everyone has the same chance of being scum whether they're a newbie, SE or IC. Ether's use of small text...null tell. Probably was even a town tell at one point, but I think she worked that out. I'm curious though, why small text is something you find worrying?

Vote: ksen.

I actually have a small theory that he could be scum with herd, but I feel happier with a ksen vote right now.

[Patrick]

Forgot to add in response to Annachie: Ether's frequency and amount of posting is a protown sign. She generally posts less and doesn't push the game forward much as scum.

[ksen]

Ksen, who's scum?

How am I supposed to know that?

My guess is that at least one of the experienced players (IC or SE) is scum.

Who do you think are scum?

[Patrick]

ksen, I thought you said you'd played games before? (I'd still like to see them). How do you think we're supposed to find scum? Why do you think at least one experienced player is scum?

[ksen]

Ksen, can you link to a few games you've played on other sites? Thanks.

Here are some 1st day threads to the last few games I've played. You can look around that forum for others as well:

http://talkrational.org/showthread.php?t=19744

http://talkrational.org/showthread.php?t=19935

http://talkrational.org/showthread.php?t=20068

[ksen]

ksen, I thought you said you'd played games before? (I'd still like to see them). How do you think we're supposed to find scum? Why do you think at least one experienced player is scum?

I linked some games above for you guys to look at.

I think it's pretty likely one of the more experienced is scum because if I were GM'ing a newbie game I'd want to make sure the scum team had someone experienced to help mentor it too.

[Incognito]

@DarthRandal1138

A few questions for you now that you've provided your post. What portion of Annachie's play do you find to be town-ish? I'm asking because you mentioned that you had issues with what seems to be role-fishing, but you still seemed to conclude that he was town when, to me, role-fishing seems like a very serious scum tell. Thoughts?
Also, what do you hope to accomplish with your vote on Yarmond when you prefaced it with an "until he/she gets here and starts talking"? Do you think he's lurking?

Herd I suspect of ducking questions and content. Perhaps being a touch confrontational. I really don't like his professed love of random voting.

What areas of the thread have you found to be examples of confrontational behavior coming from herd? Do you think herd's been more confrontational than, say, Ether?

-~-~

I'm not getting anything out of reading ksen's linked games since they're all ongoing and no roles have been revealed, and I certainly don't expect him to tell us his role in each one.

@ksen,

who would you vote for right now if you absolutely had to? Why haven't you voted yet?

[Patrick]

ok, the tone of incredulity at being asked to name suspects seemed odd to me for someone with experience, but skimming the links, it seems like a pretty basic level of play, so I'm not so sure. Have you read Ether's posts?

As I said on this page, all roles are chosen at random. The idea that one experienced player must be scum is something heard semi-often in newbies, but it's a myth.

[Incognito]

Also, Patrick, I don't see what you found to be "vaguely townish" about Darth's post. If it's a gut feeling, then okay, I can't question you about that, but I just find it strange since I normally feel like we think similarly, and my thoughts when reading his post were fairly neutral if anything.

[Patrick]

Yeah, I don't really know why or I'd probably have explained it more.

I'm not yet sure that Annachie's rolefishing is a very serious scumtell. I used to have more confidence in it, but the last two newbies doing stuff like this were town.

[ksen]

@ksen,

who would you vote for right now if you absolutely had to? Why haven't you voted yet?

I have voted . . . http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 12#1974412

I voted for Yarmond. And right now I am inclined to keep my vote there because of his/her inactivity.

[Incognito]

Oh, yeah, you did. Sorry about that.

@Patrick: Which two newbies were those?

[Patrick]

Simpor from Cops and Robbers, and JamesThePeach from our last newbie game. Simpor pretty much asked someone to speculate on whether or not someone else had a powerole, whereas James was more speculating about someone's role himself.

[Ether]

Incognito, only one of the three games are ongoing. This is one of those forums where every day gets a separate thread. I'm totally unclear on what everyone's roles were in one of the completed games, though, and it didn't have a true informed minority anyway. Ksen, you got any scum games to link to?

I can understand Patrick's sympathy for Randal's post. I don't really share it. It is possible that I am biased.

I've recently calmed down on Herd a little and tensed up on Annachie, but I don't have good reasons for either of these. I agree that the rolefishing isn't a reliable tell.

Don't like it?

Find an excuse to vote me.

This could happen yet. But I still prefer my current ksenvote.

You haven't answered my questions--either of them. (Don't get all self-righteous with me. I don't count "I'm unable to come up with genuine suspicions on the fly because that's my playstyle" as an answer.)

Who do you think are scum?

You.

[ksen]

Ksen, you got any scum games to link to?

Already did that here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 37#1979037

Who do you think are scum?

You.

Lol, ok, I set myself up for that one.

[boberz]

In response to Patrick's first post since my last one. post 107 (how do you do links to posts like you lot do?)

It was I who first mentioned herd's random vote. I merely questioned it, I did not call it scummy. I was a little inquisitive because it came after there was already content, and some proper votes and I wanted to check it was random and why it occured. I was happy with the explanation although I did not like it.

It was (as you point out) Annachie who then used it as part of an accusation. Having said this I cannot find much more on Annachie.

I am more worried about what I considered a fairly contentless post in herd's long post because it was built up so much. I accept he was pushed into saying anything and hence maybe rehashes were all he could muster. But I am not convinced. I would like to hear what herd has to say on this then I may switch and take him to what I think (will check before vote) will be L-2?

[herd456]

Herd I suspect of ducking questions and content. Perhaps being a touch confrontational. I really don't like his professed love of random voting.

Unless I've missed something, none of this is true. I believe I've answered any questions that were directly or indirectly posed at me, which is the only way to duck a question. I concede that I haven't exactly posted the most content, but neither have you. Where have I been confrontational, exactly? And I don't love random voting, I merely like to make one at the beginning of the game. It did no one any harm.

Additionally, his vote on me came not long after I called him my biggest scum read. This may not mean anything, but I think scum is more likely to do that--please correct me if I am wrong.

Could you elaborate on the difference here?

Annachie was being somewhat hypocritical, and ksen was being essentially useless.

Incidentally, ksen's recent posts have been no more useful, and it's troubling that he still hasn't posted who he thinks is scum.

You mentioned that you play Mafia elsewhere. How convincing does your read normally have to be in order for you to want to actually take action it particularly in the early game?

There's no real point at which a vote becomes justified, but I need more than what I had at this point. (Which was only asking for info not having given it himself) However, I think I have enough now to

Unvote, Vote: Annachie

. (Yeah, yeah, I just mentioned how his voting me after my saying he was my number one scum read seemed scummy--This vote is the most justified one I can make for other reasons, however)

I am more worried about what I considered a fairly contentless post in herd's long post because it was built up so much. I accept he was pushed into saying anything and hence maybe rehashes were all he could muster. But I am not convinced.

I'm not really sure what you want here, but I don't think it was totally contentless, and at the very least I've added something here. Tell me if you wanted something else. (At least you're trying to stimulate activity, which I admit I haven't been doing very well myself)

[Annachie]

3) No small or invisible text.

Because it's a direct violation of the posting rules for starters.

So, is it new to her or not?