Newbie 871 - Game Over Town Win

[Incognito]

boberz, what's the point of that question?

[boberz]

I want to keep asking you questions about each other so I can compare the answers to each question later if i feel the need. I do not want to lose any of you from my sights.

[Ether]

Do I

really

have to read back and give a researched answer? They're both town.

Mod:

prod DarthRandal1138, please. What's the status on Yarmond?

[ksen]

Anyway ksen you say i tried to lead town. What do you meant?

I already said why but I'll go ahead and recap. In the begininning of the game you posted quite a bit and seemed to me to be trying to lead the conversation. I read this as an attempt to lead town.

Could I be mistaken? Sure. But how I read it in the begininning is how I read it.

[Incognito]

boberz, I'm not fond of the question. From my perspective since you're asking me about Ether and Patrick, it seems like you're essentially asking me to attempt to manufacture a reason as to why one of Patrick or Ether is likely scum. If I'm not pushing for either of their lynches, then I don't have a dead-on scum read of either one of them. So I don't get why you're asking me to choose one.

[Incognito]

Oh and just to let everyone know, I don't think I'll have 'net access tomorrow due to Thanksgiving. I should return to normal by Friday.

[Patrick]

I had a similar reaction, but dismissed it since the question really just amounts to asking for opinions on two other players. It can be answered without any manufacturing of reasons, for example as I did.

[herd456]

Hey everyone, sorry I wasn't on yesterday, but something came up. I'll also have limited access today and tomorrow due to Thanksgiving, but I'll definitely try to get in one good post later tonight. Some quick things for now:

Incognito, my read on you is neutral mainly because you haven't been the most proactive for the town, but you also haven't done anything scummy in my opinion. I might be tempted to read this as protown, but I'm probably biased by your experience.

Also, boberz' question to the ICs is odd but I think I see where he's coming from in its asking.

[boberz]

So if you thought i was leading town in the early game, why didnt you mention it in the early game. You choose to mention it more recently. The more you speak the more I worry about your argument breaking down.

NB// This is not a flaw in theory I consider this a flaw in logic and gameplay.

I, for the first time would be willing to lynch if it were ksen.

My question is not to try and create non-reads, it is as much to see what the three of you are thinking. I can see why Ether can be considered town having checked a meta or two, but Patrick and Incog I dont get the same vibe from. Equally I think Ether is good enough to fool us in day 1/2 so all three of you still worry me. But I am not prepared to vote one of you off untill you make an actual mistake, the next day that may be different.

What do we each think Yarmond's successor will make of this game so far, if he reads for the first time before he knows his role?

I think that if he is a good player he will notice that some people have made judgements and will have to explain themselves if they are wrong. Other people have avoided making too many hard judgements, or give themselves a get out clause when they do (I hope most can work out the people I am taling to)

[boberz]

I have an essay in tommorow morning, not yet started and an essay in friday morning not yet started, so if activity is lower dont be suprised. It may make activity more since i am on my laptopt he whole time, we shall see. But a warning in advance.

[Ether]

Leading the town isn't a scumtell. I'm not sure why people think it is. Leading the town is like...the opposite of not being proactive.

"Not being proactive" would definitely be a scumtell in my book, especially when it's someone who's supposed to be good. But I disagree with Herd's analysis of him; Incognito is fine. Boberz's last posts make me want to be cooperative even less. I'm not going to help you spread paranoia about the players I think are town, experienced or not. I have my own priorities. (Plus I'm still too lazy to come up with a real answer.)

I can see why Ether can be considered town having checked a meta or two,

Equally I think Ether is good enough to fool us in day 1/2 so all three of you still worry me.

Which is it?

I'm not sure what you're asking about Yarmond.

This game is at a standstill because 3/4ths of the people we need better reads on have vanished. Buuuuuuuuuuuuut I'll probably be spending at least some of the weekend interacting with my family, too.

[boberz]

I have read you as town, but I think you are a good enough player to make me think that. Does that make sense?

I understand you are under no obligation to answer my questions, I do not hold that against you.

I am asking, what do you think an independent player would make of our game so far? (Trying to make everyone take a step back and take a wider overview)

[Ether]

It would make sense if you hadn't invoked meta. Since you did, it doesn't.

It depends on the independent player. I think we'd kind of need an independent player for this.

[Patrick]

boberz, do you have some particular reason to suspect either myself or Incognito? You seem to want to imply suspicion without really saying anything. Paranoia of experienced players is not a point, and none of us are particularly hard players to read. If you've got something to say then say it, it's not like there's alot going on.

[Patrick]

And seriously, what's the point of presenting thoughts in this way?

What do we each think Yarmond's successor will make of this game so far, if he reads for the first time before he knows his role?

I think that if he is a good player he will notice that some people have made judgements and will have to explain themselves if they are wrong. Other people have avoided making too many hard judgements, or give themselves a get out clause when they do (I hope most can work out the people I am taling to)

[Incognito]

I had a similar reaction, but dismissed it since the question really just amounts to asking for opinions on two other players. It can be answered without any manufacturing of reasons, for example as I did.

Yeah, it could be, but he seemed to specifically ask us to manufacture reasons. I'm trying to figure out why.

unvote
vote: boberz

This doesn't mean herd's out of my sight, but boberz is making me cringe on these last two pages.

boberz, I want to know what

specifically

you found when you looked into Ether's past games. You're implying that you did an extensive read of her completed games; dish it out for me. How does she act as scum? How does she act as town?

I want to know what specifically you found with Patrick and me too.

I can see why Ether can be considered town having checked a meta or two, but Patrick and Incog I dont get the same vibe from.

Do you think either one of us are playing more in-line with our scum metas? If so, why?

I get the fact that you're supposedly paranoid about us but seriously, the more times you repeat that, the more I'm beginning to think this paranoia thing is all an act.

As an aside, where are you from? I'm detecting an accent.

What do we each think Yarmond's successor will make of this game so far, if he reads for the first time before he knows his role?

We'll see when the time comes, right?

[boberz]

The point on trying to take a step back and consider what the outsider would think is very important. It would allow players that are town who look scummy to notice and try and change, although it obviously had the opposite impact for me.

I refute I asked you to manufacture reasons, I asked you to say which was the most scummy. The two players cannot be exactly the same in your eyes, and my thoughts on the players and how view them is important. I wish to hear what you think about each other so in day 4 when we have to make the right decision choosing between you (hypothetically) I can do that more effectively.

I think you exagerate my extensive read over meta and i did similar to you and patrick (it was done a couple of rl days ago btw and i do not have time to redo it now or find quotes/game links now). A couple of things i noticed, she tended to push minor tells very quickly and hard, in this game she has let a few minor things go. She posted quickly at first and it slowed, to a point where she went three or four days without a post on more than one occasion. She also appeared to pick fights (in a nice way) in a way she hasnt done here. Not conclusive but things I noticed and the reason i am safer on her than you and patrick.

You say in the last two pages i have made you cringe, fair enough. But that is just two events. Firstly my continued criticism of ksen, something I maintain and where my vote will remain. Secondly a question I originally asked quite casually in a line to the experienced players, answered nicely by patrick and objected to by incog and ether.

With you incog. I noticed you have a 100% record as mafia, that scared me a little, not a valid read on you this game. I repeat i do not have a valid read on you this game. I have more here

Windows update just kicked in will continue from here next time im on.

[Ether]

A couple of things i noticed, she tended to push minor tells very quickly and hard, in this game she has let a few minor things go. She posted quickly at first and it slowed, to a point where she went three or four days without a post on more than one occasion. She also appeared to pick fights (in a nice way) in a way she hasnt done here.

That is...about ½ for 3. I'm not even sure where you got most of that. (Which is not to say that I'm above meta in general. Not even a little.)

I'm going to calmly nod along to Incognito's interrogation without actually moving my vote.

[Incognito]

@boberz:

In reply to the stuff about Ether's meta

:
Is that your interpretation of her scum play or her town play? I got the impression you were talking about her scum play, but I just want to be sure for the sake of clarity.

In reply to the two events making me cringe

:
1) Your criticism of ksen wasn't one of the things I had a problem with even though it clashes with my developed town read of him. Though, having said that:

ksen is almost making too many mistakes to be scum, I think scum would think more before they speak particularly when they have been caught out a couple of times, does anyone else get this impression?

Since you've left your vote on him and have mentioned that he is where your vote will remain, what's your current feeling about the above?

2) Second, yeah, I can acknowledge that there is a small possibility that your original question in 173 may have come off more maliciously to me than you intended for it to read considering the fact that the way you've explained it more recently seems more reasonable. Either way, I really don't want to answer the question. I'll be sure to let it be known if I get a scum read off of

anyone

(not just the SEs) -- I don't think you'll realistically have to worry about not being able to read my opinion should I die off; I'm usually quite vocal.

With you incog. I noticed you have a 100% record as mafia, that scared me a little, not a valid read on you this game. I repeat i do not have a valid read on you this game.

I have more here

Windows update just kicked in will continue from here next time im on.

I'm guessing you meant you'll literally continue from the word "here" next time you're on haha. Take your time.

[Annachie]

*Crosses fingers*

I got some reading to do,

Unvote

I realised I should have probably done that before going AWOL

[boberz]

You are correct incog, i did deliberately set up the 'here' pun, sad isnt it. But the windows update was true.

Yes I said that as how i saw her when she was scum.

As I said you exagerate the extent to which i have read these properly, I have maintained throughout that i will do a proper meta if it seems necessary/helpfull later, as it was i had a wandered through some of your old games noticing what i did. I feel you perhaps read too much into all my statements, I dont think about the implications of how they make me look much because my mindset is more on what other people are doing/thinking I shall have to correct this.

---

Any way here...

I also notice that you sometimes seem to attack a weaker player and try to siphon them off; you dont seem to be doing that this time, but i wrote that off as a read because i have doent hat quite a lot (cite me v ksen). I saw from when i read your wiki in the first page that on at least one occasion as scum you have not been pressured in the first day or two, i planned and continue to plan to try and put you under a bit of pressure. As I said neutral read.

Patrick I noticed massive differences between his good and bad games, some of them he made early mistakes and was very obvious. But when I isolate his better games he either wins or he loses because of a logical hole that can only be found towards the end game, I will have to read patrick closely but again no proper read hence neutral read.

These were not proper metas just my impressions. And they were now three days agoish.

---

When you say you cringe at two pages of my posts. But you understand my ksen attack, and you think my explanatory posts have been better at explaining my question. Therefore does that mean you just object to the one or two sentences I used to question you in which case did you exagerate the two pages comment.

NB if this sounded accusatory it wasnt meant to be just a question.

---

In terms of the quote I made about ksen not being scum. My vote will be staying there because i think he has begun to make logical mistakes as well as not contributing good scum hunting, he said a couple of times he doesnt know how, it is my first game as well and I think I have made a fair fist of it, even if not being good occasionally. I think that he has made a lot of mistakes, when i made the quotes i was half way throught the thought proccess. It appeared at the time that he was making too many mistakes, but then after running the thought in my head and thought that after making a couple of mistakes he may deliberately make a few more mistakes to reinforce newbie image. This would be WIFOM so I dissmissed it for the most part. But the quantity of mistakes are a townside factor, but the mistakes individually are a more sizeable scumside factor he is clearly most scum to me.

---

Actually your vote on me may have made you less scummy in my eyes because if you were scum you wouldnt want me to focus on you again because i have been the only person to have any suspicion. But maybe not I will have to think this through.

[boberz]

Sorry incog i missed a couple of you points,

I dont think paranoid is the right word, I am wary because left alone with no questioning you are much more experienced players that could rinse town as scum. Surely you understand that it is no invalid for me to want to focus on you guys a bit more, the others are a bit more readable.

I am from a place called Hockley, which is just outside Southend-onSea, that is in essex (South East of England). Not far from London. Where did you think my accent was

[Patrick]

Eh, a quick read of this leaves me with the feeling that boberz is still town, even though that post last night rubbed me the wrong way. I'll have a chance to sit down and read more closely tonight when I get back. But I think the metagaming looks more like protown effort.

[starkmoon]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 5

Annachie

- 1 - herd456 - (L-4)

boberz

- 1 - Incognito - (L-4)

DarthRandall1138

- 2 - Ether, ksen - (L-3)

herd456

- 1 - Patrick - (L-4)

ksen

- 1 - boberz - (L-4)

Yarmond

- 1 - DarthRandall1138 - (L-4)

Players not voting: Annachie, Yarmond

[starkmoon]

Posted looking for a Yarmond replacement. Checking for prods needed.