Mini 880 - Mini Quick and Dirty - Game Over

[Papa Zito]

Dang right I am.

You are considering your all main suspects right?

???

Announcement: I'm finally rereading this mess over lunch. Be back soon with some stuff hopefully.

[Scien]

???

I am on your top three and you haven't even talked to me this game. Does your top three mean anything? Or is it just there to fall back on later when you need to move your suspicions...

If you haven't talked to a person on your top 3 suspects... are you even really suspect of your top 3? Or are you just focused on one for the meantime?

[Papa Zito]

???

I am on your top three and you haven't even talked to me this game. Does your top three mean anything? Or is it just there to fall back on later when you need to move your suspicions...

If you haven't talked to a person on your top 3 suspects... are you even really suspect of your top 3? Or are you just focused on one for the meantime?

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to wagon Troll?

I mean really.

Reread is done and my head hurts. Isos ahoy.

[Papa Zito]

???

I am on your top three and you haven't even talked to me this game. Does your top three mean anything? Or is it just there to fall back on later when you need to move your suspicions...

If you haven't talked to a person on your top 3 suspects... are you even really suspect of your top 3? Or are you just focused on one for the meantime?

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to wagon Troll?

I mean really.

Reread is done and my head hurts. Isos ahoy.

[Papa Zito]

^^Woops.

[Papa Zito]

And AGar's playing to his town meta?

Actually no.

Some iso's done.

I still want Troll dead but that's obviously not going to happen.

AGar

sounds

like his townself but it's hollow.

I'm worried about Ojanen.

ABR has made one big posted and coasted.

I'm less worried about Scien than I was.

unvote: Zorblag
vote: AGar

[BigBear]

Deadline is 12/10/2009 at 11:59 PM EST.

[/color]

Vote Count

ODDin - (3) - AGar, Charlatan, Ojanen
Crypto - (1) - ODDin
AGar - (5) - Albert B. Rampage, VP Balter, Crypto, Zorblog, Papa Zito
VP Balter - (1) - Scien

Not Voting

[VP Baltar]

I still have questions over this. You believed him scum enough to place a vote. You had questions out true. But you believed him scum. The response to the replace is to remove your vote? How is that trying to lynch scum?

Yes, you lost the opportunities to see reactions to your points on your target. That sucks. But you suspicions should remain no?

Where did I ever say I wouldn't be keeping an eye on crypto? I'll give you a pro-tip here, the best way to deal with replacements of a scummy player is to let them play for awhile and see if they make scummy actions of their own. If they do, you almost certainly have scum on your hands. If not, then your original read may be wrong.

But the replace has you removing your vote, and apparently your suspicions too.

No, you are claiming I'm not suspicious of the slot when my actual stance is to observe at the moment. They are quite different approaches, but fill in the blanks however you like to make your case.

One possible motive. You were adding pressure on someone that eventually replaced. Seeing that they replaced, you lost the nerve to follow through and risk the town seeing you push towards a townie lynch. The replace was a good time as any to remove your vote and 'look elsewhere'.

This makes no sense whatsoever. Why would I 'lose my nerve' to get a mislynch? If I'm scum, isn't that my main objective? And it's not like a big threat replaced into the slot...as opposed to a relative noob who would not be that difficult to get a mislynch on.

Less negative on playstyle motive? You realize it is getting towards end of day, and that your target is not going to be the lynch. You need to free vote up so that you can press towards people with more townie interest on them. Replace came along and gave you a good excuse to remove your vote and lose your suspicions.

Also doesn't make sense since I put my vote on my number two suspect, which I stated as such before Raskol replaced out.

I really have to go into theory? Wagon's are tools. Pressure helps get real reactions out of people. It doesn't matter if the target was good or bad really. The pressure is the goal.

If a wagon is shit, expect me to tell you so. Like I said, I was justified in SC's flip. You can call it a scumploy all you want, facts are facts, and you're reaching to ridiculous ends.

You were on PapaZ. You supposedly had him as your main suspect. But were going to be away towards end game. But back in time for deadline. You change your vote to the developing either/or anyway, and say that when you get back you will change it if necessary?

Are you even looking for context AT ALL? I voted for Amished barely over a day before deadline. How likely do you think it would have been for me to get a PapaZ lynch in a day's time when he had no votes for him and multiple people had said they weren't moved by the arguments presented? Hint: basically zero.

I said I would make an effort to be around at deadline to help a lynch go through if Amished wasn't happening. I had already committed myself that he was the best of the possibilities presented. Now stop being ignorant with your tunnelling and actually do your research.

---

@crypto 557-the two posts you quoted from me do not show a difference of opinion in the least. As a replacement, especially into a suspicious slot, you have an obligation to prove your towniness to me. A case on alleged suspect Zorblag would help that. Get chopping or get lynched.

---

I'm probably going to be lynched tomorrow, I guess that's not going to change. That's fine. I haven't played the best game, and it's a pretty fair reasoning to lynch me.

Not really able read this as a strong alignment tell either way in itself but if you look at this

3. There should probably be way more pressure on me since I have not really contributed as much as I would personally have liked to in this game. It actually pisses me off that no one has come after me for anything yet, because I gain reads that way.

Where's the guy who supposedly strives under pressure, where's the reads and reactions t your wagon?
There's a dissonance here to him currently flapping around somewhat phlegmatically, hate the defeatism.
If he's scum, he's taking it too peacefully, I would guess some bussing to have taken effect already in that case.
If you're town, fight dammit, get content out.

Just take time to make it to the deadline before hammering so a gameplan can be figured out for tomorrow.

Especially if you want this, take the passive language out please. [/quote]
I agree with all of this. AGar, if this is like our newbie game together you really need to pull something together to make me believe you are town like you did in that game. I thought you learned from there that being defeatist gets you nowhere. You're being ten times worse here (with less OMGUSing) and it makes me really uncomfortable...and leaves pretty much no choice but ot lynch you.

VP, Scien's referencing the fact that you unvoted PZ before going V/LA 4 days before DL while saying you'll probably vote Sando when you drop in closer to it. I think you remember wrong the vote situation though, it was Sando 4 and four others, including Zito, at 2 votes, Amished wagon wasn't born yet really.

Well crap. I guess I was remembering it wrong. I didn't really go back to look at the exact time line until today, but yeah...I don't understand his argument either way.

Why do you think crypto is a noob? His join date is less than a month away from Zito's, Seral's and mine for instance, and he's played plenty.

Noobishness doesn't have everything to do with join date. His approach to the game, however, screams noob. Look at the way he wants to look for scum. It's not exactly a refined process, nor do I think it would be a very effective method.

For me, experienced scum hunters look for motivations as their lead scumhunting tool...which is part of the reason I do not understand Scien's tunneling on me, since a majority of the things he is presenting as points have no easily visible scum motive.

I'm worried about Ojanen.

You've piqued my interest, anything concrete?

ABR has made one big posted and coasted.

I agree with this.

[crypto]

crypto, how would you compare that wagon to the Sando wagon in terms of deadline rush?

Much more rushed than the Sando wagon, IIRC.

Did you read the complete game before deciding to concentrate on the off-wagon voters btw?[/quote]
I've read some of it and skimmed the rest.

FOS: Papa Zito

for the AGar part of post 580. Not sure what to make of the flip-flop. Could be busing if AGar flips scum, but then I'd be disappointed if AGar didn't lynched, so ... meh.

I do agree with PZ to a degree about ABR. Disagree about Ojanen.

[crypto]

@crypto 557-the two posts you quoted from me do not show a difference of opinion in the least. As a replacement, especially into a suspicious slot, you have an obligation to prove your towniness to me. A case on alleged suspect Zorblag would help that. Get chopping or get lynched.

All right, Captain, here's my case:

Too many questions, too few stated suspicions. General bad feel to his style.

Satisfied? Wait, no, don't answer. Building a case versus not building a case on a player is not alignment-indicative, as far as I'm concerned, especially when I really am not interested in pursuing that player.

[VP Baltar]

Well, that's at least better than what you had before. Also, why do you insist on trying to insult every single person that questions you?

[Papa Zito]

I'm worried about Ojanen.

You've piqued my interest, anything concrete?

I wish I could say there was.

For one, I don't like how she's quietly been declared obv-town by the crew when she hasn't, when you look back, really done all that much. Most of her posts are zero content or asking questions interspersed here or there with meaty posts. But the meaty posts usually serve to justify a vote and then don't do much after that. Seems to be following wagons.

Let me give an example.

I'm trying to figure out Mr. Rampage. Suspicious of Amished slot, and I have a hard time reading ABR.

After this post, she goes off on ODDin and then AGar. ABR is never brought up again.

That kind of thing.

FOS: Papa Zito for the AGar part of post 580. Not sure what to make of the flip-flop. Could be busing if AGar flips scum, but then I'd be disappointed if AGar didn't lynched, so ... meh.

I just reread the thread. You really are playing a scum game atm.

[crypto]

Well, that's at least better than what you had before. Also, why do you insist on trying to insult every single person that questions you?

I didn't really think "Captain" was a serious insult.

I just reread the thread. You really are playing a scum game atm.

I know you did. Reading the thread is not a town tell, PZ. Going from hardly mentioning or interacting with me to accusing me simply because I posted a

very

gentle/hesitant FOS of you (while still agreeing with some of what you said) has piqued my interest, though.

[Papa Zito]

I posted a

very

gentle/hesitant FOS of you

I can't stop giggling.

[crypto]

*looks long and hard for accidental perverted wording*

[VP Baltar]

Where the hell is charlatan? I hope everyone posts before deadline...I have a pretty uneasy feeling about how this entire day has gone really.

[charlatan]

Hey, sorry guys! Those of you who have played with me before know this isn't really like me. My laptop battery died out two days ago, so I've only been able to steal a few minutes here and there on other peoples' computers. I am back in business now and will be catching up and posting shortly -- I should also be here for the hours leading up to the deadline.

[VP Baltar]

Wow, that was effective...lemme try something.

WHERE THE HELL IS MY MILLION DOLLARS?

[Papa Zito]

Lawl VP.

Was reading bits, saw this:

I find this pretty interesting, because I'm having a hard time getting a handle on Scien this game, too, and I find this comment surprising. The only game I've played with him was that newbie game I was only in for a day or two (PZ was in it, too). The one difference I've noticed is that Scien was worlds more intense in that game, very much up to speed and making arguments. However, I did not find him clueless at all then and was rather impressed with him overall. Do I misunderstand what you're saying here?

I've found him less "intense" as scum. As town he nitpicks the hell out of everything and doesn't let go. There's a lot more "yeah well maybe" in this game. Not that this is damning at all but it's like that itch on your back that you have to use the corner of a wall to scratch, and you end up looking like a moron.

By clueless I mean every townie is clueless as to who the bad guys are, and so they try to guess and put pieces of the puzzle together. He mimics this activity well as scum, I suspect because he's an uber-logical player.

[AGar]

3. There should probably be way more pressure on me since I have not really contributed as much as I would personally have liked to in this game. It actually pisses me off that no one has come after me for anything yet, because I gain reads that way.

Where's the guy who supposedly strives under pressure, where's the reads and reactions t your wagon?
There's a dissonance here to him currently flapping around somewhat phlegmatically, hate the defeatism.
If he's scum, he's taking it too peacefully, I would guess some bussing to have taken effect already in that case.
If you're town, fight dammit, get content out.

The wagon on me is, for the most part, based off of (from what I can tell) my inactivity day 1. I've made my points on that, it's not going to change the people.

These are the cases that I've found on me.

Crypto - voting me because of "scummy behavior" that he has yet to point out and because I wasn't on the Sando wagon.

VP - Because I'm tunneling, devoid of scumhunting ideas and overly lost on D1.

ABR - Because I failed to meet his standard of pro-town play. That's all I managed to glean from his case.

Troll - I'm not interacting with people enough.

So really, of those 4 cases, one is really non-existent (Crypto), two are for my play on D1 (ABR/VP), and one is because I don't have enough suspects (Troll).

I can make a response to one, being Troll's.

I'm trying to stick to a semi-minimalist approach this game because it's a bigger one than I'm used to on MS, with a lot better players. I've played solely in Newbie Games up to this point, so it's a bit easier to catch people who stick out obviously in them. I'm not necessarily ignoring people, but I'm not trying to get fully focused on everyone at once here, because each player has a lot better play than what I'm used to. I don't want to overextend my attention to too many people and botch something because of it, I'd much rather keep my approach to a few players and not get too involved in confusing myself with things.

570 was provoked btw by the fact that I was expecting severely more as reactions and conclusions when the initial reactions to the votes were of this type

LOL.

That is all for now.

That wasn't my response to the vote, heh. That was just to his "One of the three who weren't on the wagon should be lynched" theory.

[AGar]

VP - The defeatism last time was a little different - I felt like you guys were missing things ridiculously obvious. This time I just can't argue the cases. And even if I did post a case right now, it'd be flailing.

[crypto]

You are scum because you only started posting content around 10 posts into your iso., because after that you still posted very little content, because you OMGUSed ekiM, because you OMGUSed me, because you played the newbie card, because your vote for ODDin was horrible ("Seemingly empty vote to start off a day"? – lol), because of your "You guys should be pressuring me more!" deal, because your spiel about how you found Sando suspicious even after his flip is a load of contrived BS, and because I don't believe your suspicion of ODDin computes with your newfound suspicion of me and general neglect of ODDin following iso. 29.

Oh, and I HIGHLY doubt you would've posted iso. 30 if you really think ODDin is scum.

[VP Baltar]

Get your last words in here folks and someone swing the hammer.

[VP Baltar]

Wait, I want to hear what charlatan has to say....hopefully he'll get something in here before deadline.

[charlatan]

WHERE THE HELL IS MY MILLION DOLLARS?

Check your PayPal account, chief. I'm makin' it rain.

Since I have not been here, I am going to make a big post. I apologize. I am trying to be more succinct these days, but I'm still as long-winded as ever and there's a lot happening.

Is Raskol replacing out without addressing them only annoying, or also scummy?

Only annoying. I don't think replacing out of the game means something about the player's role, especially when a specific reason is provided which says the opposite. So, no, I don't think it's scummy, since I see no reason for Raskol-scum to be more likely to replace out than for Raskol-town.

I think I might not have asked my question correctly. I don't care at all about Raskol replacing and do not expect anyone else to. That is completely non-indicative of alignment. However, it probably stands to reason he could have answered some of the questions or suspicions directed his way before doing so. Do you think it's relevant that he did not?

---

I don't have a great deal to say in regards to ODDin's argument with crypto. I think it's kind of underwhelming, to be honest. I can see where crypto's coming from (I wonder if I'm also a dumbass?) if he thinks he can pick scum from that smaller pool, and I also think it's counter-productive (and semi-scummy) to make the leap to characterizing that as him

not

looking at (or purposely ignoring) players outside of that pool. I don't think anything he said indicates he would not consider voting elsewhere. I do think any sort of approach like that would depend entirely on the playerbase to be considered stupid or smart in any case -- I can certainly see a situation where you have good reads on the smaller group and vague reads on the larger group in which it would be helpful, and the opposite is also true.

I think my point is that I don't see why there's been so much page time devoted to that topic. I do not find crypto scummier for it, whether or not he's wrong theoretically. It does nothing to make me think my vote on ODDin is less deserved, either.

---

Moving on, Scien's point against VP is at best an honest mistake and at worst an attempt to fabricate a case. VP removing his vote with Raskol's replacement is pretty much just good sense. I would only see this as a problem if VP went on to ignore crypto once he got involved, but since he hasn't, the point is null.

Scien, please respond to the following point: I see a little bit of a disconnect here, as what VP is being accused of doing is what AGar has actually done with me since ekiM replaced out. AGar hasn't batted an eye at me since I replaced in, but I am sitting in what was his #1 seat. I am not apt to take that super seriously since that suspicion was based on early Day 1 debate, but since AGar thought it important enough to stick with most of Day 1, it's not nothing, either. Is there a difference?

By clueless I mean every townie is clueless as to who the bad guys are, and so they try to guess and put pieces of the puzzle together. He mimics this activity well as scum, I suspect because he's an uber-logical player.

Word. I did not take "clueless townie" in reference to knowing alignments, more like being generally stupid. Now I get you.

I'm trying to stick to a semi-minimalist approach this game because it's a bigger one than I'm used to on MS, with a lot better players. I've played solely in Newbie Games up to this point, so it's a bit easier to catch people who stick out obviously in them. I'm not necessarily ignoring people, but I'm not trying to get fully focused on everyone at once here, because each player has a lot better play than what I'm used to. I don't want to overextend my attention to too many people and botch something because of it, I'd much rather keep my approach to a few players and not get too involved in confusing myself with things.

This is kind of hardcore excuse-making. You don't have to be a better player than anyone here to play with this group or any other. Everyone slips. Nobody is scumtell-proof. You don't have a shot if you don't engage, and posts like this read like an attempt to rid yourself of responsibility. That said:

I agree with all of this. AGar, if this is like our newbie game together you really need to pull something together to make me believe you are town like you did in that game. I thought you learned from there that being defeatist gets you nowhere. You're being ten times worse here (with less OMGUSing) and it makes me really uncomfortable...and leaves pretty much no choice but ot lynch you.

I get a vague sense that this is pre-emptively blaming AGar for his mislynch in the event that he flips town. This is hard to quantify, and I wonder if I'm alone in this.

Ultimately, I think both leading bandwagons have their merits. If it comes down to a potential no-lynch, I will switch my vote. However, there is no doubt that AGar is an easy target today, especially since he's been so unengaged. It feels more like a policy lynch related to a lack of participation than anything else, and while that's not a horrible thing I also think we can do better. (Maybe not in the next few hours, though.)