Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

/confirm

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

/reconfirm

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

IT'S CAUSE HE KNOWS THAT VI IS TOWN. And that you're scum, VP... Either way, he's your partner then so therefore

Vote: Sando

Well the yelling has convinced me.

Vote: Sando

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

1. What was your role in the aborted version of this game?

John Wilkes Booth - Vigilante who could only kill Abraham Lincoln, all other kill attempts would fail. If I killed Lincoln I would die the next day and fufill my win con. Or vanilla townie, one or the other.

2. Did you know before the game started that Friends and Enemies is intended to be run with 3 mafia and 3 masons?

Friends and Enemies 2/2 isn't inherently wrong; in fact I've played that before and had a good time, but I did figure that with ABR in the game we were intended to play Friends and Enemies 3/3.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'd like to hear from DDD and ABR on the Scien/Vi exchange.

Why those two and not the troll?

Anyways I don't think I learned anything useful from their exchange. Other than Scien picking a terrible argument to poke at at the beginning both players engaged in the neutral fashion I would expect at this point.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@Debonair Danny DiPietro, why ask about my lack of inclucsion in PorkhchopExpress's question rather than, say, Ojanen's?

Well to me it looked like PE was focusing on those who hadn't posted as much. You have such a distinctive presence that I notice when you aren't around so much, Oj on the other hand and other people you could substitute into her place have much less of a defined presence.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD-trend analysis this game?

If you really want one, I'll run it, but considering last game it found all of one cultist and then a townie who would later become a cultist, I'm no longer really enamored with it. Doesn't seem to hit any more often than random chance.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

No problem, what's your new plan of action then?

I like to think I've gotten better at scumhunting and since that development coincided with the trend analysis I conflated the two so it'll pretty much be business as usual since then minus the trend analysis.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD: While you're here. I know it's early, but I feel like so far you've played a pretty reactive game. Except asking Porkchop an easy-mode question, you've only responded when you've been addressed, and despite your assertion that you've recently become a better scumhunter (and I do not doubt this, as you come highly recommended) you don't seem to have really sunk your teeth in yet. What's the deal? Just chilling? Observing, like a hawk? Help me understand you, 3D.

I do play a reactive game and I tailor my style to the players I'm playing with. If I'm ICing a newbie game then I'm going to push the pace and be aggresive because most newbies don't know they need to contribute. But playing in a game with VPB, Vi, and SC (amongst others) I know I don't need to be the one to push the pace because they're very comfortable taking that role. We've had what, four days for this game? I'm just waiting to see something I view as scummy to start running with.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I do play a reactive game and I tailor my style to the players I'm playing with. If I'm ICing a newbie game then I'm going to push the pace and be aggresive because most newbies don't know they need to contribute. But playing in a game with VPB, Vi, and SC (amongst others) I know I don't need to be the one to push the pace because they're very comfortable taking that role. We've had what, four days for this game?

I'm just waiting to see something I view as scummy to start running with.

In that case, I'll hang on to every word you say~

You mean you don't already?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I do play a reactive game and I tailor my style to the players I'm playing with. If I'm ICing a newbie game then I'm going to push the pace and be aggresive because most newbies don't know they need to contribute. But playing in a game with VPB, Vi, and SC (amongst others) I know I don't need to be the one to push the pace because they're very comfortable taking that role. We've had what, four days for this game?

I'm just waiting to see something I view as scummy to start running with.

In that case, I'll hang on to every word you say~

You mean you don't already?

I hope not, you've have just lynched him 5 times...

In English this time.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Unvote; Vote: Amished

Tosses a "content plz" vote on me without asking for any specific content which is weak; asking for generic content doesn't actually help the town at all. Additionally I'm a relatively easy target and his vote can immediatly be spun off as nothing more than a pressure/content vote. This is of course strange because he claims to already have a scum team in mind, but instead of pushing a wagon on one of them, he goes for the lurker? Scum.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I do wonder a bit about your most recent vote change though. It doesn't seem as though either Debonair Danny DiPietro or PorkchopExpress have posted since your previous vote. Was Amished's defense of his vote really enough to convince you that it was worth moving from one lurker vote to another or did you see something that you've failed to mention?

After falling hopelessly behind in Appenine Mafia, DDD-scum adopted a strategy of "most helpful lurker" - resulting in him getting lynched in spite of basically every Townie wondering why on earth he was still alive at the beginning of each Day. After getting rightfully burned in that game, I'm not interested in letting DDD lurk another game away again, and I've been interested in what he would post ITT considering his promise to find something enlightening to base his vote on whenever that enlightening thing happens.

Now consider that apparently the most (if only) enlightening thing to occur thus far has been Amished voting for him. Excuse me if I have a hard time believing it.

I on the other hand have a hard time believing that my vote on Amished is the most interesting or scummiest thing so far in this game. And bear in mind, that it was you people who decided that when I finally said something it would be some super terrific point; I never claimed to have any phenomenal insight only that when something did interest me I would pursue it. And you're one of the two people who should know best that after the apparently defining game that was Appenine Mafia I changed my playstyle to account for that, three words - Mafia of Order.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

1) I've lost too many games because of lurkers (either lynching them if they're pro-town or not if they're scum)

So you've lost too many games by lynching pro-town lurkers, so you begin to pressure and vote a pro-town lurker, okay that argument doesn't make any sense.

2) I like the smell of OMGUS in the morning.

Maybe if you change the S in OMGUS from suck to scum then that'd be an accurate characterization.

3) You're a player too, and you know what you pick up on that's scummy moreso than I know your outlook. Is my questioning you really the only (or most important) scummy thing you've seen all game?

No, I reread the entire game, while your vote on me was the tipping point you were high through my rest of the read. I'm pretty sure despite ABR's comments that calling the scumteam was a bad idea you went ahead and did it anyways amongst other things.

4) I acknowledge that I can be wrong; so if I am, this way I can get more information about the rest of the town and gauge myself on that as well.

Blah, blah, blah, generic "more content is always good content" platitude conveniently trying to provide yourself a backdoor.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Ddd I think you're wrong about amished. Second option?

Well now I'm convinced. Though I guess I basically never listen to your reads when you do actually explain them, so it was worth a shot to try and get me to listen to you by not actually explaining it for once.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Charming.

I wasn't trying to convince you, I was asking if you would tell me your send best scum read.

I try, I believe it was PorkchopExpress when I reread the game.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I've also lost many games for not lynching anti-town lurkers. Lurkers hurt games. Period.

No, lurkers you can't get a read on hurt games. If you can get a good read on a lurker then there is no need to care about their activity status.

I'm glad you've put so much effort into your "case" against me to even convince anybody of anything; so congratulations on that effort.

Thanks.

Blah blah blah, I couldn't get a read on you. I don't like that in any game I'm in. You wanna actually post your thoughts on me; or anything? Apparently not, you just wanna attack the person who called you out. I'd be flabbergasted if you could prove anything other than you attacking me and (just now) defending your position of not providing content.

You couldn't get a read on me; sounds like the problem is on your end, not mine. And I did post why I didn't like your actions in regards to voting me and the calling the team. How is that not giving my thoughts on you? I took your actions, I critiqued them, I used that critique to take action; that would fall neatly in with my definition of scumhunting.

To your "calling the team" thing; you really think I'm blind?

Probably not, unless you have a special braille keyboard.

In any case, I called out the three people that at the time I felt were scummiest. I could see them all on a team just due to the fact that they're all scummy in my eyes at that time. With my vote I wanted you to weigh in, and now it's fulfilling a purpose of being on somebody scummy.

So instead of just calling out the three scummiest players you ignore previous warnings to not try and link players and intentionally try to link players. Sounds like weakness of individual cases and thus trying to use links between them to strengthen points against all, when that was laid out specifically as a bad idea.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

And speaking about Mafia of Order, DDD, are you trying to insist that you didn't really contribute there similar to what you are doing in this game? I don't believe that's true and we can go look through the first 14 pages there if you'd like.

I was dead by page 14 in that game because of short deadlines, but go ahead and look. In that game I had three posts in the first five game days; so in the first five days I was actually more active in this game then that one. So yeah, if I'm getting slagged for no content then the parallel seems very similar to draw since that's exactly what you slagged me with in that game.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

From what I can tell in multi-isolation, 1 doesn't relate. In that game, DDD bothered to participate at all. Here he only posted when his name was called to OMGUS and produce some charlatan-level reasoning (see below).

It looks like it took me about four days to get any sort of decent content going in Mayor Mafia and even then SC was unimpressed with it. In Mafia of Order I had all of three posts in the first days of the game and the VPB was unimpressed with the content I eventually generated. So in this game it took me four or five days to get any content going and Vi and others are unimpressed with it. Really, you can nitpick if you like but this is a fairly established and current (town) meta for me in this sort of game.

2 is not entirely similar either. I have

scum

meta on DDD... and I also have Town meta on a helpful and fairly awesome DDD in Zachtown, although that was after he replaced in D3. While I may be willing to buy that DDD plays a reactive game D1 - which goes against what he told me elsewhere, but whatever - I'm not entirely naive enough to be burned by the same tactic twice.

I will grant that his response to the quoted post (in that game) makes me wonder about my previously positive image of DDD-Town. I'm curious as to what DDD thinks of his own play in the game you linked.

Really, you had a positive image of me in Zachtown? I mean I had my theory right (ignore the double vote and one of the PR claims had to be scum), but I picked the wrong PR claim to push, had mediocre reads on people, and only got ten posts off that convinced no one to listen to me before my death.

But let’s work with that assumption, you had a positive town impression of me as a day two town replacement, SC’s previous experience with me was as a productive D3 town replacement, and one of my best games recently was as a D2 town replacement in Amish Mafia as we had a great last three days to win the game. And then conversely we have me-town getting burned as “scum coasting” D1 in Mafia of Order, SC chipping me-town for the same D1 in Mayor Mafia, and me-town drawing attention here D1 for the same thing, I think the meta should be well established with all of that. Now that doesn’t mean I couldn’t be intentionally playing against meta (I’m not but whatever), but to suggest that my behavior in this game equates to my scum meta is just fallacious given recent history.

~~~

No, lurkers you can't get a read on hurt games. If you can get a good read on a lurker then there is no need to care about their activity status.

You couldn't get a read on me; sounds like the problem is on your end, not mine.

No, seriously, am I the only person who wants to scream right here?

If Amished had initially said that he wasn’t getting a read on me that would’ve been acceptable. Instead he put it together as a lurker pressure vote, without actually attempting to engage me in a fashion that would actually help him get a read on me.

The case against Amished is trumped-up beyond what it's worth. If you're going to be suspicious of someone over calling the team, try Sando, who tried to sway ABR into "calling the team" by asking if char/DDD/Amished were group scum.

Umm, agreed about Sando, but I can only reply to something after it’s been posted and I was using my time last night to reply to those people who were expecting a reply. My next available opportunity to comment on it is now, where I’m agreeing with you about how it’s bad.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Calling the team is a "bad idea" for this setup cause technically you can be seeing the Mason grouping connections rather than the Mafia connections (or so what I thought ABR was worried about or whatever). Also, they're all individually scummy; while also having the potential to be together. I haven't looked too hard into scum-type interactions where they have to distance a bit, etc.. so that's an admitted "weak" point in my "team" calling.

I'm not blind because if I know that there's mason pairings, I can discern which of the two types of connections I'm seeing; pro-town or anti-town.

Well you got why ABR recommended against doing it, but you failed to make the next logical jump. If you're talking about plausible player connections, barring guessing the scumteam completely right you have provided the scumteam with plausible mason connections which is information they have to otherwise figure out if someone like you doesn't just post it.

And if you're clever enough to figure out what sort of connections they are, then maybe that's something you should've been clever enough to do it in your head or on paper until you had some confirmed information to verify that you are in fact trying to nail the scum team and not just outing the masons.

As town it's plain not smart, as scum it could be trying to bolster arguments. Plus, you should be smart enough not to do something so foolish. Either way I don't like it.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Re: meta - Meta, Town or otherwise, is not a direct reason for my vote on you; and I'm fairly positive I made that clear in my previous post. I know you are capable of lurking through a game and getting away with it. Needlessly to say, I'm not interested in allowing that - regardless of whether that's your habit.

The two quotes I posted are both false. Your alignment is

my

our business; if you're not going to open yourself up to allow a read, the problem is most certainly on your end. Further, I would rather have someone who contributes versus a lurking Townie; anyone who has been in a game where someone gets Cop-investigated and then drops off the page entirely can relate.

It continues to sound to me like you're more concerned with my activity level that with my alignment when you say things like, "I know you can lurk a game away and I won't allow it" and "I would rather have someone who contributes even over a cop confirmed town lurker". Personally I think those positions are nonsense, I try not to be the activity police. I'm concerned with one thing, winning and you do that from correct reads and not activity checks.

The level of scumhunting between now and when SC accused you in that other game is different. Your first (and basically only) public point after being told to produce content was to attack your attacker. Surely that's not the only noteworthy, voteworthy thing that has gone on up to this point?

I agree, sadly there's not been anyone as blatently scummy in this game as there was in the last game. That usually makes things much easier.

Re: Replying to things - You were well within your ability to reply to Sando's post, but you claim it wasn't your responsibility until 1) I mentioned it 2) while posting toward you. Penn and Teller disapprove.

Not really, I have only so much time to devote to the game (especially with the forum on the fritz making everything take longer), I was available two nights ago and posted as much as I could to things I had deemed priority. Then I didn't get a chance until the next day when I responded to you in agreement with what you had noted because it didn't make sense to disregard your comment and then bring up Sando's comment independently.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

No, lurkers you can't get a read on hurt games. If you can get a good read on a lurker then there is no need to care about their activity status.

Well, I don't think anyone is reading you as town atm, so....

Nonsense, there's certainly several individuals who know I'm town.

In Mafia of Order I had all of three posts in the first days of the game and the VPB was unimpressed with the content I eventually generated.

In fairness, that was the first time I saw "trend analysis" wasn't it? You have to admit that is a bit strange and cryptic. It threw me off.

Chief, I'm not trying to pick on you when that game comes up, I can certainly understand why I got lynched that time. I couldn't self-meta the trend analysis because the other games with it were ongoing and we'd just come out of M98, made me an easy and obvious suspect. It's the pressure right now that's annoying because at this point there's a very obvious meta that the people pressuring me should recognize as just that, but instead are somehow convinced that this game is just enough different somehow that makes that read irrelevant.

you can nitpick if you like but this is a fairly established and current (town) meta for me in this sort of game.

What does "this sort of game" mean?

I think the meta should be well established with all of that. Now that doesn’t mean I couldn’t be intentionally playing against meta (I’m not but whatever), but to suggest that my behavior in this game equates to my scum meta is just fallacious given recent history.

Ok, what do you think is the cause of your recently atrocious D1 play?

This sort of game is a game with players I generally respect and don't need to be herded like sheep. If I notice myself in an all sheep game (say a newbie game with no other IC and rubbish SEs or a mini game with no one I know in the game) then I get immediately aggressive pushing whatever looks like even a half decent argument so that the game has something to work off of. But I don't enjoy doing that and I don't think I'm terribly effective at actually hunting scum while I'm doing that, so when I can avoid doing that I do so. By day two however things have happened, people are almost invariably dead with connections that can be made and I can start making reasoned, rational arguments. So in a game that I don't think needs me producing outstanding content, I tend to lurk and just hope for it to be day two already.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@Ojanen, at this point I have no interest in voting for VP Baltar today. I'd rather not go into my reasons. The same currently applies to all of Amished, Debonair Danny DiPietro and SerialClergyman for a variety of reasons. Should any of them get closer to being lynched I might talk more but for now I'll just say that I think they do not make good choices for today.

@Debonair Danny DiPietro, you've joined that list very recently. Based on what it looks like you're doing I think that you should be seeing something that it looks like you're not. There is a hole in your reasoning that probably explains some of what you're looking for in the way of a couple answers and I think that you can find it.

Troll, you're obviously trying to obscure your reasoning so that I have a good shot of decoding your idea and no one else for whatever reason, but in doing so you've completely lost me as well.

~~~

Unvote; Vote: xRECKONERx

I have yet to see someone burn their own tells by abusing them as scum. Amished's point does seem valid, I also don't think Troll's personal counter examples hold up terribly well as Troll is almost always a unique case.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD - In case you missed it, please see 406.

Is 406 really relevant any more given 413?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD - In case you missed it, please see 406.

Is 406 really relevant any more given 413?

Yes. Is there a particular reason not to answer it? Even though you're not voting Amished, understanding some things about why you voted in the first place helps my read on you, especially when you alluded to having additional reasons for your vote on him that you never expounded on.

As scum there's a very good amount of information that can be learned by pushing such an idea; particularly the people accused of being linked together. Depending on the person a too defensive position might mean one thing and trying to ignore the issue might mean another, but there's certainly potential value.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Also, you {xRx} have done my scumtell which pretty much makes you certain scum.

Come on, Amished. If you're that confident let's get banging at stringing this guy up instead of just chasing some potential connection with him.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Vote: xRECKONERx

Thought it was a good lynch yesterday, given flips still looks like a good lynch today. I do like Vi's arguments about Sando and the tone of Sando's quotes just reads as off to me and that's probably my second choice right now.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

PCE was a better lynch than charlatan. We can't afford to lose PCE if he is town, so we have to be convinced he is scum to lynch him. I'm not convinced.

I don't know whether PCE is scum or not. I know we can't mislynch or we are in a world of shit tomorrow,

What particular piece of insight am I missing that makes these statements make sense?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Unvote DDD, vote Reck

DDD, any content? Anything??

SC says I get bonus points if I don't provide reasons in helping lynch rec.

You also didn't answer my question earlier.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Forgot to add:

DDD, when do you plan to actually get involved in this game? Have you found anything scummy to run with yet?

I started the wagon on Rec today that's got him up to L-1, no credit for that? I mean I could've made loud noises and repeated things from yesterday and called it a case, but I think it's fairly obvious that the facts speak for themselves considering how the wagon has come together.

I've tried to question ABR, but he won't answer my question, no credit for that either? The only way I know to possibly get him to engage me is to repeat the question (which I've done) and try and bandwagon him except I believe voting for Rec to be a better course of action which doesn't leave me with much recourse.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I mean I could've made loud noises and repeated things from yesterday and called it a case,

...and instead you made soft noises and referenced things from yesterday and called it an argument.

You mentioned Sando earlier. Do you still feel the same way about him? Do you feel any need at all to do/ask anything at this time?

Let's just make the assumption that everything I do or don't do is in fact what I intend to do; that way I can minimize answering stupid questions and you can maximize the amount of time you whine at me for my terrible play.

Why would I feel any different about Sando? His response to your points wasn't terribly inspiring and then he tries to chip my preferred bandwagon for its lack of reasons, but about five people already all came to the same consensus (and they're all the people I respect and Albert) so it appears to me that Sando's primary interest is not in evaluating Rec as scum and instead in bringing suspicion to some people on the wagon.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD; anything??? The best you can do is ask me a question? Really? Content please.

When you refuse to engage with me or VPB; it takes away any moral high ground or functional leverage you might have. I'd be inclined to engage with someone who would reciprocate and could be reasoned with; as you've not demonstrated an interest in any sort of actual dialogue and that you change your mind simply when you feel like changing your mind and not due to external factors.

19 21 81 18 23 321

And as far as I can tell SC simply got bored on the Rec wagon and so decided to do something else (as he tends to do) and voted ABR who then decided to OMGUS SC (which would seem to fit right in his wheelhouse) and together derailed the wagon that I really rather liked which is more than a little annoying.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

For the sake of advancing discussion and because I'm bored, I will answer some:

PCE was a better lynch than charlatan. We can't afford to lose PCE if he is town, so we have to be convinced he is scum to lynch him. I'm not convinced.

I don't know whether PCE is scum or not. I know we can't mislynch or we are in a world of shit tomorrow,

What particular piece of insight am I missing that makes these statements make sense?

PCE was a solid Day 1 lynch because he didn't give any original information and was likely not going to. Nobody to link him with, nothing to pin him on in the future, and this in itself was scummy, coupled with a lack of interest in the game.

But we wasted a lynch Day 1 on charlatan (which was bad but unpreventable due to Amished, VPB, Zorblag, etc.), and we have to lynch carefully, based on more than "we can't link him to anyone" and lurking. Know what I mean?

Sure, but I think most people would come to the opposite conclusion. If we have no information from him and we can't link him to anyone can we really afford to let him live to a potential LYLO situation? Because of these facts it's unlikely that scum will kill him, so doesn't it make more sense to take our chance when it isn't a game losing proposition. Additionally, if we expect others to provide information and connections and we don't expect PCE to do the same then the utility of keeping him around on that sort of grounds is even less.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Oj falls right behind Rec in terms of who I'd be interested in lynching today. VPB did a good job in laying out her wishy-washy positions earlier and then she attacks VPB who is my strongest town read. I think I've gotten pretty good at reading VPB over the several games we've played together and I'm reading him as town in this game no questions asked. Sando trails the other two, but is the other lynch I'd be willing to consider today.

Hito has helped moved that player slot back towards the middle, but I'm withholding further judgement until he interacts with other players further.

I have nothing of importance to say about Zorblag and SC.

Vi probably deserves a re-read, but on the points she seems generally correct. And if I'm using the standard from Zachtown and the reasoning from Appenine, she's probably town.

I really wish I knew how to read ABR. In that first and last game we played together he essentially quit on the town, as town. In this game I get a variety of different anti-town actions that I have no idea how to decypher. Just on the facts he wouldn't be a bad lynch, but I have no idea how much of it is "ABR being ABR". In conclusion, in regards to ABR, HALP!

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I don't particularly have a problem with DDD. I looked over Appenine Mafia (where he was scum), and there is an interesting difference between past and present play (that I'll keep to myself, but etc.).

Not even in post-game?

~~~

And rec continues to try and hurt the town by securing posthumous town lynches.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Reck flips scum - we look at him naming people to be lynched tomorrow and laugh.

Reck flips town - we look at him naming people to be lynched tomorrow and consider it in light of it being a confirmed townies opinion.

Scum can't really organise posthumous lynches that way, therefore I can only agree with VPB, DDD looks like he's saying he thinks Reck is town.

No they can't organize it, but as some of you have already figured out it's a nasty potential for WIFOM and to drop some final influence into the game. And those of you just suggesting that you'll laugh it off or ignore it, well that's probably correct, but not the correct approach. Just to ignore it is to pass on potentially useful information, the correct approach and result is to evaluate it and find that it's at least 50% nonsense and quite likely 100%.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Hey DDD. If you're saying xSCUMx is last-minute WIFOMing and we shouldn't ignore it, and half of what he's saying is about lynching you... isn't that at cross-purposes?

Just because he's at least half wrong doesn't mean I'm going to discard any possible information, even if it's WIFOM from scum and it doesn't make sense for me to encourage others to view the game in such a fashion.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Perhaps you should shut your useless mouth up until other players can post. I don't know, just an innocent suggestion VPB.

Good idea, here's what I say...

Vote: Albert B. Rampage

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

The scum can't lynch me with only two players and VPB. Funny how they are trying to appear all threatening when they know far well they can't touch me with their weaksauce manpower. So sad. They misguidedly think they have a shot at the great Albert B. Rampage. Fanciful entrance is fancy. Sorry DDD, I wanted to see your scumhuntinng techniques but now I have to lynch you right after hito.

At least you're smart enough to not make it you versus me right now since you know you'll lose that battle, might as well and try to secure the lynch of your choice before you get yourself lynched, eh?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD: How about that WIFOM from xRx's death?

What exactly do you mean?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD: How about that WIFOM from xRx's death?

What exactly do you mean?

You said that you were willing to look at xRx's dying words (lynch teh DDD and teh Veep-Beep) regardless of how he flipped. Have you drawn a conclusion?

Half of it's upper crap and the other half is about the only thing not confirming VPB as 100% town in my mind. VPB's reaction at the end of the day and the rest of his play gives me a rather high certainty he's town. However if I was scum in that situation I probably would've thrown out a partner and a townie, that little bit of WIFOM tickles the back of my skull, but I can't put aside the rest of my read over a single comment where can I only assume the difference is due to differing playstyles or simply WIFOM.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Really interesting points from Sando in regards to SC who had been giving me bad feelings since his disaster yesterday with ABR. I guess I expect town-SC to at some point try and convince me of some ridiculous theory he's come up with and doesn't make any sense to me and I haven't see that at all, he's played a rather humdrum conventional game which doesn't mesh with the town meta I have of him. I don't have the other half of the meta so I don't want to make assumptions but it has bothered me.

I think VPB raises good points about PCE and that's why Hito is a bit lower on my list than some. If I'm being brutally honest I don't have a lot of respect for Rec's play so I just don't seeing bussing when another wagon was wide open as his first instinct.

Unvote

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Unvote, Vote: hitogoroshi

Meta double take.

DDD, did you look at Reck's scum meta that I provided? I'd like to hear your opinion on it.

I didn't check the links, but I'll trust the analysis since it would be potentially lethally stupid for you to lie about what they entailed. I think that certainly removes one of my main objections to the possibility that PCE/Hito is scum. I'm really having a hard time parsing between Hito and SC lately as to who I think is scummier. If they aren't partners then I'd look to Sando and Zorblag next and I still have no idea how to read ABR.

@Mod: Vote count, plz

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, I'm getting masive vibes of Commie Mafia.

What, where we're completely misdirected in the late game other than our town reads? Or that someone has been pulling a complete power bus from day one? I could see either of those. The problem is that in Commie Mafia I had enough town reads that simply lynching people who weren't town reads was good enough; here I don't have nearly enough town reads to feel comfortable doing that.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Danny, VPB, le coup de grace, por favor.

Not leaning that way, plus not possible any more with Vi's unvote.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Oh and if I didn't mention here,

V/LA through Sunday

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Vote: Hito

I have absolutely no interest in a wagon of VP Baltar. I don't know if SC is now playing to the stereotype I expect of his play since he got wagoned heavily or if it's a legitimate change, but it gives me enough pause not to vote for him. Again, I think VPB raises a good point about PCE and Reck's scum meta. Additionally, I wasn't a fan of PCE's behavior on day one. I also don't trust at all that Hito's late change on day three is genuine, frankly I think it looks rather artificial and designed to generate the "look he's not taking the path of least resistance" reaction. All in all, I think Hito is the best choice for a lynch today.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Hey DDD, same question that's been permeating (in various forms) to the others - what would my townflip make you think about SC, and what would an SC townflip make you think about me?

Town flips of one don't really tell me much about the other; they strike me as rather independent events. My vote on you is not a product of my belief in SC's towniness or scuminess but is a product of my belief in you being scum.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Please (VPB and DDD) explain your thoughts on hito 998 being scummy and contrived.

It doesn't look to me like an organic opinion that Hito naturally came to; it instead reads me to me as a manufactured case as a reason to change votes. The facts he referenced were on the board for a while and I'm just not seeing the dramatic catalyst for his post and pivot.

His statement such as, "This is more or less a death sentence for me." really bother me because it's basically a call for people to lynch him for such a statement or completely get off his wagon. I guess it makes most sense for me as scum backed up in a corner where he's lynched quickly and left a mess on the table for the last days or he gets his wagoned as derailed. As town I don't think I'd ever cut such a bargain because I always think I can shift votes off me; the truth is a powerful thing.

Then he pads out his case with pointless game theory filler and ends with, "As I said, there's a chance I just lost us the game by setting up the town for an Albert mislynch, but I think the fact that I have no anxiety, no worry about this possibility is the single best response I can give to the question 'how sure are you that Albert is scum?'" which doesn't fill me with any confidence. I can sympathize with SC being a bit "lost", but Hito's confidence doesn't really make sense to me as town.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, I really think SC is a superior lynch today. There is still a chance that hito is misguided and panicking town. SC, however, is pretty clearly scum.

Yeah, really not seeing SC as scummier than Hito.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

We are definitely lynching SC today, whether by

deadline

or majority.

Lol.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Mason claim please.

Disagree.

Vote: No Lynch

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

meh, I think the risk is greater that way, but if the majority of town feels that way then we should do it as quickly as possible with as little discussion as possible.

Mason claims today: Odds of hitting scum = 2/5

No lynch today: Mason NKed: Odds of hitting scum = 2/5 tomorrow
No lynch today: VT NKed: Odds of hitting scum = 2/4 tomorrow

No real risk, possible advantage, No Lynch is the right move.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

My initial guess says DDD as one. Not sure on a second. I need to some serious rereading of this thread. That may or may not happen today because I have to work from about noon-8pm. If not today, then this will probably be high on my priorities tomorrow.

Oh I can't wait to hear the reasons for this.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

worried?

Not in the slightest, very curious however.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Had to cut things to try and make sure it was readable and that all the key parts were still in it, but the essence of VPB’s crappy arguments should still be in there.

Which is fine on its own, but I don't know if I particularly feel like DDD has been "business as usual" this game or shown much for scumhunting. He excuses himself from having to contribute much in iso 8 because "VPB, Vi and SC (amongst others)" are here and he therefore he doesn't "need to push the pace". This is also the post where he says he's waiting for something scummy to run with. While I know DDD can be lurky regardless of alignment, I question whether or not he's actually run with anything this game? Why say that's what you're going to do if you really have no intention of it?

I got behind Amished’s theory pretty much as soon as he promoted it; I tried to get him back on that wagon when he left it for the D1 mislynch. As soon as D2 began I jumped back on the wagon and unlike others never wavered; I’m not sure how I could’ve run with that idea more than I did. Even if we exclude that I think I’m hardly alone in being more than a little uncertain and indecisive in this game.

This didn't stick out to me as particularly relevant initially, but now that I read it again, I'm not sure what this means. DDD, are you saying that you lurked in Mafia of Order so you could compensate for Appenine and lurk in the future like that?

As the numbers from Apennine showed there was a significant gap in my meta. I would’ve been a fool not to fix the gap. Since it was easier to slow down my activity to my scum level than ramp up my scum activity to town levels that’s what I did. I’ve never denied that and I’ve never used meta as a positive argument except to counter those trying to make the argument that it indicts me.

This comes after DDD's exchange with Amished, which was indeed pretty weak. Something about this has the air of being willing to follow now that his argument with Amished hasn't yeilded anything, which I don't like considering how convinced DDD seems to be about Amished in their back and forth.

So when I found something and ran with it overconfidently that’s scummy; except earlier I was being chided for not running with anything. If you want to get on my case about the argument with Amished being poor that’s fine because it was poor, but your arguments about not running with anything versus being convinced are at cross-purpose and are absolute nonsense.

Which I kind of thought was him breadcrumbing mason. Now I have no clue what he was doing.

No shit I was breadcrumbing mason. I was using that to try and get suspicion off my back and to try and draw a NK away from the real masons. I was successful on the first front, I was not on the second.

I really don't think this was delivered on at all this game. Much like Appenine Mafia, there is the promise of scumhunting but no delivery.

Whatever chief; in Appenine I whored myself out to whatever lynch we could get and get quickest. In this game I’m the only person who hasn’t been voting confirmed town at deadline: you, Vi, and Zorblag were all on the D1 mislynch, PCE was on another town wagon; I was voting for scum. Vi was also voting for a pro-town player on D2 while I helped lynch scum. And on D3 Hito was voting a pro-town player; while VPB, Vi, and Zorblag all contributed to the mislynch. Scumhunting is just the tool to find and lynch scum and by that standard you have absolutely no place to chide me. For all your “scumhunting” you’ve lynched more town than scum; the same cannot be said about me.

re: DDD voting RECK early - In hindsight, this actually looks like a good move for DDD if he's scum. Charlatan was already at L-2 and certainly wasn't gaining any traction against his lynch. what is slightly questionable about DDD here is that he's agreeing with Amished, who was previously his top scum suspect.

I saw no apparent change in opinion on Amished at that time, so why would he suddenly agree with him? I know when I have someone high on my scum list, I certainly give their opinion much less credence than I would if I thought they were town.

It doesn't make much sense to me.

I have yet to see someone burn their own tells by abusing them as scum. Amished's point does seem valid

Additionally, in the same post he says:

I've tried to question ABR, but he won't answer my question, no credit for that either? The only way I know to possibly get him to engage me is to repeat the question (which I've done) and try and bandwagon him except I believe voting for Rec to be a better course of action which doesn't leave me with much recourse.

Which is conflating his efforts more than a touch, imo. He asked ABR a single question about a side-issue that he never pushes in any kind of serious way.

I had one post between my question for ABR and this post; basically the sole content in that post was to agitate for ABR to answer my question. It appears I was batting a thousand on following up on that one.

And rec continues to try and hurt the town by securing posthumous town lynches.

I think I brought this up before, but this doesn't make sense and also sounds like DDD is just too sure that Reck will flip town.

So your argument here is that I’m too confident that the player who flipped SCUM would flip TOWN and that’s why I’m that player’s scum partner.

At least you made it obvious that you’re blatantly making shit up with that last one. Really trashes the positive read I had on you from the rest of the game.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Whatever chief; in Appenine I whored myself out to whatever lynch we could get and get quickest. In this game I’m the only person who hasn’t been voting confirmed town at deadline: you, Vi, and Zorblag were all on the D1 mislynch, PCE was on another town wagon; I was voting for scum. Vi was also voting for a pro-town player on D2 while I helped lynch scum. And on D3 Hito was voting a pro-town player; while VPB, Vi, and Zorblag all contributed to the mislynch. Scumhunting is just the tool to find and lynch scum and by that standard you have absolutely no place to chide me. For all your “scumhunting” you’ve lynched more town than scum; the same cannot be said about me.

That's a strange way of presenting yourself as holier than the thous down here...

Let's turn that around. Why

weren't

you on the other wagons?

Because the Charlatan wagon sucked (I think the wagon and his lynch were caused because of him targeting power brokers like SC, VPB, and ABR more than really good points laid against him) and because I really liked Amished's policy point against Rec. And then on D3 SC finally started posting in a fashion consistent with my town meta of him while Hito's arguments and activity seemed forced to me and PCE had been one of my scummier reads on D1. So I wasn't on those wagons because they weren't good ones and better ones also existed.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

And then on D3 SC finally started posting in a fashion consistent with my town meta of him while Hito's arguments and activity seemed forced to me and PCE had been one of my scummier reads on D1.

When was this decision made?

Going back I had them on fairly equal footing on P39/961, but by P42/1040 I told ABR that I was not inclined to jump on the SC wagon. So that decision was made between then.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@Vi, is there some reason that you in particular should be the last to share your conclusions? I know that to some degree someone has to but I find it odd that you've decided it should be you and that come out publicly with that as your plan.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Of course.

I don't just accidentally wind up in LyLo, so I have some doubt in what I've dug up and would like to see what everyone else thinks before doing the usual Last Stand and impressing the benighted public with my views.

However, I don't know where anyone else stands right now... yourself included. Another reason for me to wait is to ensure that others' conclusions aren't being worked around mine. (Yes, I AM being difficult~)

But enough about me. How about

you

laying down some words to commit to?

But in this game it's certainly possible that's exactly what happened. Scum had to use their night kills to eliminate masons; that meant they couldn't eliminate the usual townie looking townies. I've absolutely gone, "Why are Vi and Zorblag still alive when no one suspected them?" several times when I've tried to puzzle out the scumteam today, only to catch myself as I remember that scum had to try and kill the masons.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'll be back sometime tonight with an actual opinion.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Talking of actual opinions, there's someone else who is going well out of his way to not give any.

You mean Trollblag? Glad we're on the same page.

Personally I'm looking at movement and attitudes around his votes and I'm not much liking what I see. He plants his vote early on Charlatan before much of his discussion in regards to him actually happens. By the end of the day he's much more interested in talking about Rec and PCE, but he seems content to sit his vote on Charlatan despite that. Camping on a big day one town lynch, check.

Day two he votes Rec and then simply disappears; VPB may call me hypocritical, but at least I interacted during day two working for position and reads as I tried to lynch Rec. Troll simply votes and then disappears barring one summary of everyone.

And then his D3 play is terribad as well; he's only interested in two people and promptly votes Hito. In ISO 41 he says, "@Vi, my vote is still on hitogoroshi because I think he's still the most likely to be scum." and yet in ISO 43 with no reasons in between the posts he hammers on SC.

And then today we've seen absolutely nothing from him. I'd say his partner is between VPB and Vi and frankly I could be wrong, but I see scum coming from two of those three no matter how it gets cut. If we get a scum lynch I'll make sure to re-read for links, but I don't have any interest in lynching Hito right now.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

More or less, yes, we're on the same page.

What changed about hito?

--

I think I'll go ahead and post what I have tomorrow morning.

I don't like the connections so much anymore; when I was voting him on D3, I had SC and ABR as possible scum partners with a few lesser options. But now those two are gone and I'm not really a fan of Hito/VPB or Hito/Zorblag and Hito/Vi is probably last on my list of pairings.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

For DDD:

I really liked Amished's policy point against Rec

How so?

It seemed logical that scum would be much more inclined to go back and evaluate the play of their predecssor than town would be. And like I've said before I don't think I've seen scum ever burn a semi-unique tell like that; so the worst case scenario to me is that it was a logical, good faith effort by a pro-town player. And if that's the worst case then that's a great place to vote, wagon, and lynch.

And then on D3 SC finally started posting in a fashion consistent with my town meta of him

What IS your Town meta of him?

It mostly involves him scrambling and working on a different wavelength from everyone else. His early play just looked too much like that of ABR and VPB for me to be comfortable, bad charlatan lynch on D1; screw around pointlessly on D2 while eventually helping lynch rec. His personal appeal to me that I quoted in my ISO 43 really stood out as right in his wheelhouse and his D3 play looked much like I think his town play did in Commie Mafia now that I think about it and it convinced me he wasn't the best choice for lynching.

~~~

VPB, a question for you and I'd like you to answer starting with the words "That depends".

Do you have the same alignment as Zorblag?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Here's a question for you guys - when DDD unvoted SerialClergyman D3, how inevitable was an SC wagon looking? I still think scum were looking to chain mislynches (even though my top candidate for scum was actually just doing lord-knows-what) and both Zorblag and VP had the 'lynch either' mentality. DDD expressed a strong preference for me over SC later in the day - but that's kind of what I would expect IF the scum thought that SC was getting lynched and I was not.

I never unvoted SC because I never voted for SC. On D3 I buzzed a vote past ABR's ear and then unvoted that to vote for you.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm curious as to where everyone else went.

I was waiting for the Troll's promised analysis that I thought we were going to get last night.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Heaven forbid I spend two days visiting with my family. Hito, sod off, I'm pretty sure I've been at least or more active than both you and Trollblag today. Furthermore, I shouldn't have to pontificate on how just because VPB and Trollblag decided to wallpost somehow makes them more town then an incisive, but smaller post like my ISO 60.

Zorblag’s five post wall where he finally contributes today is just super dense and not terribly well structured, but I’ll try to pull out the major themes that interest me.

I understand Zorblag’s argument about the night kills, but I still see confirmed town making LYLO as the worst situation for scum; especially as no one here is irrational enough to speed-vote and put the town in danger. There’s also the fact that if non-masons die then town would likely explore the possibility that they were killed for other reasons which could theoretically lead town back to critical information to clear or condemn people. Thus I think this argument as trying to cast suspicion on Hito is possible, but unlikely because of the greater risks born from not killing masons.

I also think Zorblag’s argument insinuating that I was busing Hito also falls completely flat. The crux of this argument appears to be that a SC lynch was inevitable and thus I took no risk by positioning myself against it. This is fraudulent as when I took my initial stance against lynching SC and thus towards Hito, SC was at somewhere between L-4 and L-2 (vote counts are hard to come by in this section); both Hito and Vi had unvoted SC; while Hito was in an equal sort of position with SC pulling his vote off of him. There was the Vi and SC movement onto VPB at that point where I voted for Hito. At that time, any one lynch was far from inevitable as we had three separate wagons at L-3. Thus his contention that I bore no risk with my votes is complete bullshit and revisionist history. It’s also interesting, because this stance allows him to shuck the responsibility of lynching SC despite riding Hito the entire way and expressing a commitment to lynching Hito up through his second to last post of that day because a SC lynch was “inevitable” .

~~~

And to answer the troll’s latest question: yes, I think a Vi/Hito scum team is possible but considering those two are my least likely to be scum reads I find that pairing to be very unlikely.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Yes, I waited to see what Zorblag would say; in a recent newbie game I voted in LYLO to a large degree out of spite because the player was not contributing (there were certainly other legit reasons to vote him, but the timing was driven by his absence). He flipped town, we lost the game. I refuse to do the same here and again it's not something I'm going to apologize for.

However, I see nothing from Zorblag to suggest he isn't scum. He positions himself against me so that when I do what I'm going to do below he can respond in kind and not appear to be a hypocrite, but the arguments he created against me are built on a completely fraudulent base. Zorblag's D3 play is what really drives my vote; he's completely dedicated to a Hito lynch with an early vote and never an unvote. But by the end he simply jumps off to facilitate a town lynch and then later tries to position himself as simply a tool of others' actions (the SC lynch was inevitable) trying to avoid responsibility for his own.

At some point in this game someone is going to have to suck it up; have courage that they're right and vote. That person is me, that time is now.

Vote: Zorblag

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@Debonair Danny DiPietro, your characterization of day three really doesn't match what actually happened there. You most certainly did hold off on your vote until SerialClergyman was the most likely lynch; VP Baltar and Sando had gone through their arguments and had both largely settled there, Vi and hitogoroshi were both pretty clearly not going to move to hitogoroshi at that time and the only other vote that might have gone back that way was really Albert B. Rampage. I said at the start of the day that the best lynches were hitogoroshi and SerialClergyman, the fact that I didn't move my vote prior the hammer doesn't do anything to make my move at the end any sort of surprise. Clearly the most likely lynch to happen by the time you cast your vote was SerialClergyman and you cast it in a way that very conveniently kept you off another mislynch. If you're scum with hitogoroshi it was a good move that probably wouldn't get a team mate mislynched (though even if it did you'd look even better going forward) and if you're scum with anyone else it simply served to keep your record spotless.

Is still bullshit and maybe the SC lynch was inevitable because you were simply gunning for a lynch and you didn't care whether it was Hito or SC, but from my perspective the day was still wide open with three competing bandwagons. And you can throw around names but with eight alive and five to lynch, with Hito and SC had seemingly come to a detente and I wasn't voting for SC, so for it to be inevitable you had to read everyone else as intending to lynch SC. This is despite Vi being off on an equally large VPB bandwagon and you still voting for Hito. Additionally, I think I made it clear on D1 that I don't give a fuck what anyone else says about inevitability. I tried to get Amished back on the xRecx bandwagon despite the fact that the charlatan lynch was "inevitable". It's a stupid defeatist attitude and completely irrelevant when there isn't a deadline.

You're saying that scum would be less safe leaving confirmed town in the game than anything else they could have done because non-mason kills would cause us to explore the reasons that the night kills were made and track back to critical information. Regardless of who the kills were we should be looking back at the motives and trying to find that information. The idea that mason's being killed would avoid that for scum in some way makes no sense. You also seem to be assuming that the scum must have been fairly sure who the masons were which I can see for some scum teams (most easily you and Vi) but which in general is a bit of a stretch based on the information that I could see when looking over that myself. Scum wouldn't have needed a quick lynch to get a mislynch from a living mason; if Sando or Albert B. Rampage were likely to provide one leaving them alive would have been the right move for scum to make.

The key assumption scum would have to make is that Sando and/or ABR would not consider other options. This is clearly irrational, they are both experienced and competent players. Just look at how this game has actually gone to see examples of why making such an assumption makes no sense. Given that it only makes sense to clear the confirmed innocents from the board.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@Debonair Danny DiPietro, wait a minute. Are you actually trying to say that you thought that the VP Baltar lynch was anywhere near as likely as either the hitogoroshi or SerialClergyman wagons? That's just not particularly believable at all. We were looking at a choice that was almost certainly going to be between the other two. You delayed throwing a hat in the ring until after things were largely settled in a way that was going to keep you off the lynch. Now you're trying to use the fact that my top two choices for lynches that day (from the start of the day) were the two options that it came down to against me by saying that I opportunisticly went with the SerialClergyman vote just because it would be a lynch. When I changed my vote it was because SerialClergyman was a reasonable lynch, and there had been what felt like enough discussion to be able to make informed decisions as we went forward. I did think that hitogoroshi was a bit better in terms of a lynch but I spent time that day asking questions designed to see if SerialClergyman or hitogoroshi were displaying the sort of reasoning that should change my mind. Neither of them were. I certainly had no problem settling for my number two choice in that situation.

Zorblag, I'm pretty sure you know this, but just because you said, "we're either lynching y or z" doesn't mean that instantly becomes the reality of the situation. Did I think the VPB lynch was likely? Not particularly, but when I made my vote I specifically stood against it to try and help kill it from gaining momentum, because it might not have been likely but it certainly was viable.

And let me quote your post again, "@Vi, my vote is still on hitogoroshi because I think he's still the most likely to be scum." There are not caveats or quid pro quos in that statement, merely Hito is scummiest. You changed your vote out of ill intent or laziness and I don't believe that the Zorblag who would drop five consecutive wall posts in LYLO is that lazy.

As far as Albert B. Rampage and Sando go even if the scum were sure they were the masons they didn't have to be sure that they wouldn't consider other options to make them possibilities to leave alive. Certainly they're going to consider other options, anyone would. The scum just had to think that they'd be reasonably likely to end up hitting town after they did their considering. Insisting both that the only thing it makes sense for scum to do is take out masons and that they had figured out who the masons were makes no sense. That seems to be the position that you're taking here. For all I know you're right about the assertion and the kills were just made because the scum had the mason's nailed. That doesn't mean that we should be assuming that's how it went down. Confirmed town are not always the best lynch and this is a situation where that's got a real possibility of being the case.

Whatever, chief, I kill confirmed townies first, second, and third and I bet everyone else in this game agrees with me. I've left players alive into LYLO as scum and have them pivot on me from not suspicious on me to advocating my lynch, I've seen townies kill one half of a intra-voting pair for the WIFOM, I've seen them leave them alive to try and get them to vote for each other. There is extremely minimal value in trying to predict other players behaviors, especially in LYLO when re-reads become mandatory and all of your assumptions have to be challenged. There is huge value in eliminating players who no one will vote for. If this is the crux of your argument against Hito, it fails, hard.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Here's what I find interesting, that you're arguing with me for show. If your opinion is that I'm scum then why are you not voting for me. If your opinion is that I'm misguided town then why are you not trying to convince me who is scum if you are not scum and I am not scum. Instead you're content to merely sit back and argue my points; now since I'm the one bringing these points up, clearly I believe them so simply disagreeing with me as you've done gets me none closer to unvoting you as would be the clear goal of the second stated belief. Thus, you're clearly playing to the outside audience to gain support because I see little evidence that you're actually interested in persuading me of anything.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Wait, so Troll was voted and hasn't been lynched yet? Interesting.

How so? Only Zorblag and I were seemingly around yesterday and you and Vi just showed up with one post apiece today. Assuming the worst case of I'm town and Zorblag town, the only way a lynch could've occurred would be if you and Vi are scum together and got real aggressive.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Am I the only one who feels like VPB's comments in regards to me almost seem more like criticisms of my play as poor rather than an assessment of my play as scummy?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I disagree strongly with DDD's argument that the SerialClergyman lynch was inevitable. If it wasn't inevitable, I wouldn't have given up and joined it. Let's look at where everyone stood at the end of D3.

And you're telling me that if Zorblag had hunkered down and dug in his heels you don't think he could've gotten either you or Sando to make the opposite move he did? It's not like we were sitting under deadline where a move had to be made. Other people were willing to stick to their principles, why not Zorblag?

~~~

Am I the only one who feels like VPB's comments in regards to me almost seem more like criticisms of my play as poor rather than an assessment of my play as scummy?

Really? That's how you're interpreting it?

No, it was an absolutely pointless statement intended as a funny joke... in LYLO... with votes on the board. Of course I was serious, I fail to see the causality in your posts or a larger narrative; it mostly seems to consist of whining that I haven't been active enough or that I'm taking credit for being more active than I have.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@Debonair Danny DiPietro, did you think that I wasn't willing to vote for SerialClergyman at the time? Why would you expect me to hunker down and not be willing to make that change?

And let me quote your post again, "@Vi, my vote is still on hitogoroshi because I think he's still the most likely to be scum." There are not caveats or quid pro quos in that statement, merely Hito is scummiest. You changed your vote out of ill intent or laziness and I don't believe that the Zorblag who would drop five consecutive wall posts in LYLO is that lazy.

And if you're making the argument instead that you saw absolutely no difference between SC and Hito and were willing to acquiesce to whatever lynch was available that doesn't move my read either because that's scummy as hell. Either you had a firm opinion and chose to disregard it to facilitate an easier lynch or you were just wandering through the day without a firm opinion at all. This is despite the fact that you spent "so much" time questioning both of them and nearly the entire day revolved around the two of them; you weren't able to get a good read as one far more likely scum or one far more likely town? I don't buy it.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@Debonair Danny DiPietro, I said at the start of the day that they were two best lynches. hitogoroshi was my first choice and I stayed with it until there was a reason to think that it wasn't going to happen but my second choice was.

Did you even look at my last explanation about my response to Vi's question?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Do you mean this?

@Vi, my job is as a townie is to try to lynch scum. I happen to know that this doesn't mean lynching who I think is scum as I've been known to be particularly wrong often when I'm town. As such I cast my vote where I think it's most likely to hit scum and then see what others do with their suspicions. As the game goes on my chances of gaining the information that I need to make the right choices increases.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@Debonair Danny DiPietro, no, I mean this:

Have you looked at the context in which Vi was asking why my vote was still on hitogoroshi just after making their case that hitogoroshi wasn't scum. It's a case that I didn't agree with. I took the question to mean why was I still voting for hitogoroshi when he wasn't scum to which my response was that I did still find him the most likely to be scum. Do you think that I hadn't expressed suspicion of SerialClergyman prior to that?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Well no, I don't find that compelling at all. You didn't find the arguments for Hito-town sound and stated unequivocally that Hito was most likely to be scum, that doesn't change the context for your behavior at all. And yes, you flacked SC some, but based on your actions and words it reads to me as a very clear number one and a clear number two; you call Hito the most likely to be scum, you vote him early and hold that vote throughout the entire day, never unvoting to pressure SC in a serious fashion. I'm not sure where in those words and actions someone is supposed to make the leap that SC was nary a hair behind Hito in your mind as you're suggesting.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm working on two large posts one to take apart VPB's attempt at a narrative and another to encapsulate the Zorblag scum narrative; they will be posted this afternoon. Deadline is in two days so I think these will have to be my definitive words on the matter and everyone who is undecided or playing at undecided will need to find some onions and vote, a no lynch is a scum win and playing it so close is like Tyson switching his vote on Survivor last night, just foolhardy.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

In response to VPB; first off despite your attempts to characterize my statements that way I never promised to put together some fantastic scum hunting posts as you’ve suggested. I said when I found something interesting, I would run with it. I found Amished’s interactions with me interesting, I ran with it. I decided I was wrong and that he raised good points about Rec, I ran with that.

Second, I made it absolutely clear that I’ve never seen scum burn a tell like Amished would have been doing. I also made it clear that I found the logic behind the position sound. Your position also rests upon the assumption that I found Amished extremely scummy and wanted him dead that instant when that was never my position. In fact I said after Vi rebuffed my initial Amished arguments, “And bear in mind, that it was you people who decided that when I finally said something it would be some super terrific point; I never claimed to have any phenomenal insight only that when something did interest me I would pursue it.” Do those sound like the words of someone who is completely confident of their position and driving towards a lynch? Or do they sound more like the words of someone whose found something they don’t like and have decided to push the issue to gather more information? I think from any sort of neutral perspective the second is the logical conclusion.

Third, yes it’s my fault that I was right on D1 and then on D2 and tried to hand you a scum lynch, but you ignored me on D1 and dicked around on D2. I still find it the funniest thing in the world when I get criticized for being right by people who got it wrong.

Fourth, obviously the masons were huge targets of mine as I helped to create those massive bandwagons on Oj and Sando that had them claiming their roles to save their lives. What do you mean that never happened? What do you mean I never voted for either of them? VPB, really, if you’re trying to argue that I did absolutely nothing to contribute to the Rec wagon despite voting for it; it makes absolutely no sense for you to turn around and claim that by my words alone without even voting I somehow seriously imperiled or intended to imperil Oj or Sando.

~~~

Day 5 and you haven't been on a SINGLE mislynch. Show me a single other game where you reached Day 5 and did the same thing and I'd have to reconsider my position.

Remember, we’ve only had three days of actual lynches not five. I can pull a town game that I believe my success is reasonably close to this one. The game is Open 142: True Love where I identified scum early on day one, voted to wagon got scum lynched. Day two was over in a day or so with the rest of the town voting against my advice. With the true love variant in play I had the wrong person on D3, but the right pairing and lynching with me would’ve won the town the game, but I got lynched in that game on D3 for camping my vote on scum and under contributing and being too sure of the D2 mislynch. Conversely, I have never won a game as scum without being on at least two mislynches and even in my scum losses I’ve always been on at least one mislynch.

Everyone needs to read the game above (it’s short, only twelve pages); if you read that game and come back and want to lynch me in this one I will laugh my damn head off.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

The case on Zorblag. I may have said much of this before, but it bears repeating in comprehensive form. First let’s look at a day by day analysis of his play. On day one he’s very early on the charlatan wagon; the rest of you now know that this is a bad wagon. I’m getting flack for camping on a scum wagon, then what should it be said about Zorblag that he’s camping on a town wagon? The interesting thing is that he very much gets interested in other players in this day, but never unvotes charlatan.

He also has a very confusing set of posts in regard to the PCE wagon. Stating, “My top three choices for lynches today at this time, in order are charlatan, xRECKONERx, PorkchopExpress.” And then “I don't really understand how this PorkchopExpress wagon got going.” And in the next post, “@Vi, although it seems pretty likely that there's scum on the PorkchopExpress wagon one way or another I don't know that I'd call it scum driven.

The next day he has a dearth of posts; he votes Rec in the first and provides a summary of the game while apologizing repeatedly for going missing. It’s fun that I’m getting killed for my long maintenance of my vote on Rec, but Zorblag is getting a pass for the same thing except his vote came at an even more convenient time.

Day three Zorblag is only interested in two people, SC is town and at this point I feel very safe in making the assumption that Hito is town. He tries even during the very day to portray one of their lynches as inevitable which is extremely anti-town because it seeks to limit discussion. Where Sando-town dug in his heels for his choice, where DDD-town dug in his heels for his choice, where SC-town dug in his heels about not voting Hito, where likely-town Hito dug in his heels on not voting SC, and maybe town Vi dug in her heels, Zorblag-scum felt absolutely no compunction about flipping choices.

Today he’s the second to last person to take a stance on anything; he waits until VPB, myself, and Vi have already taken stands before he says anything. And his performance is entirely theatrical despite his protests to the contrary as despite his stated consideration of me as a misguided townie he never tries to convince me that there’s a better choice for a lynch and thus his play is solely as a show to try and convince the other townies to try and mislynch me.

~~~

Meta: I don’t have a big meta of Zorblag; only a single game. However, one thing I did note in that game is that Zorblag did have a firm lynching preference that he fought for. There was none of this, “well I’ve got three top lynch candidates” or “I’ll accept either a Hito or SC lynch” that we've seen in this game.

In terms of general playstyle; VP Baltar and/or Vi would be wise to remember Apennine Mafia where scum had absolutely no problem flip flopping to whatever lynch was convenient at the time; it’s classic scum and Zorblag has worked to disguise this attitude somewhat, but it’s still right there under the surface in his early attitudes. Finally, look at the posting style and it feels very much like this style I have as scum. He varies between being very active and disappearing for long stretches; I know as scum I often have a hard time getting into a game but when I do it’s very easy to become committed and work hard and then slip out the back door to let the town destroy itself and then slip back in and then repeat the cycle as needed.

In conclusion:

Confirm Vote: Zorblag

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Hey, DDD, who do you think is the most likely buddy for Zorblag-scum?

Well pairings aren't my main concern as long as there exists viable options. But I think it's VP Baltar playing for the win; I can't and won't rule out Vi but I think VPB does fit better into the spot. If we do lynch Zorblag and Vi and VPB aren't playing a large and elaborately cruel hoax and he flips scum I'll go back and review further with the new information if I make it through the night but today I've been focused on simply getting this one right.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD: Which "other players" was Troll interested in D1?

DDD: The very first thing I noticed about the game you linked was that you were much more active in that game than this one. What changed?
If you were as active in this game as you were in that game, then you would have license to say something like

yes it’s my fault that I was right on D1 and then on D2 and tried to hand you a scum lynch, but you ignored me on D1 and dicked around on D2.

Here you were a nonentity.

DDD: After the restarted game went on for a week, the only thing you had to "run with" was a thinly veiled OMGUS to Amished lurker-prodding you. Seriously?

1) Rec and PCE, though there were between four more people that he deemed good to acceptable lynches as well.

2) Great, your activity obsession continues. I already noted to VPB how I've attempted to shift my meta to a significant degree. Anyways, the relevant things that were supposed to be pulled from that game were sucess, playstyle, tone, and even similar arguments, not activity level.

3) There were two things going on at that point, a bad wagon on charlatan and me drawing luker pressure. Now I didn't have a good enough read on charlatan to want to actually defend him, but I had no interest in facilitating the wagon either. That left the other key issue at that point in the game being lurker pressure on me; from my perspective that was obviously bogus and attacking that and those who were pushing it was by far the best option.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

2) Great, your activity obsession continues. I already noted to VPB how I've attempted to shift my meta to a significant degree. Anyways, the relevant things that were supposed to be pulled from that game were sucess, playstyle, tone, and even similar arguments, not activity level.

Wait, so
*you're trying to shift your meta
*you want us to compare your performance here to a previous game (from mid-2009, pre-Appenine)
How does that work?

Ignoring that, there are still dissimilarities (in what you want me to see). In particular, you were all kinds of ready to vote kirroha and explain why to whoever asked. In this game, your vote on xRx was followed by "isn't it obvious what the reasons are? look at the wagon". Understandably the xRx wagon was not nearly as contested as kirroha's, but here you deliberately offer literally nothing except that you're "running with" Amished's tell from D1.

As I already explained, the relevant thing I was interested in from that game was not my posting rate which should be different if I'm doing this whole meta adjustment thing right but the things I noted earlier where I haven't tried to change things and I think there are very similar parallels.

That has to be a false dilemma.

Nothing

else happened within the first week?

Nothing I considered terribly important or compelling; it was the first week of the game the first serious bandwagons were just coming together out of the RVS; and I already explained my actions in the context of the two majors actions I saw.

~~~

I'll try to find time for some computer access tomorrow to answer any last second inquiries if they pop up or lament the town's loss if you clowns make the mistake of lynching me, but it's looking like a rather busy day for me.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Or it means normal people aren't awake at 8 am on a Saturday, weirdo.

At this point I've said everything I can say and see no way to get whoever are the other two townies to come to their senses since everyone is basically saying that if Zorblag is scum it's for not the reasons I've suggested. So I'm basically reduced to really hoping that Hito is Zorblag's scum partner so that when I get mislynched at least I can brag in post-game about how I was never wrong in this game; so exasperating.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Well, you scumbags had your chance to talk. I'm leaving for a track meet now.

Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro

Hope I'm right because I really don't want to be sporting that Miley avatar.....

Miley is too good for you.

GG Scum.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I guess I should’ve picked up the Rec thing, but I try to compartmentalize each game so any shifts in personality or activity don’t bleed into the other so I wasn’t looking for connections between games. I also was busy being right in regards to Zorblag and like I said, I wasn’t looking for his partner yet, just trying to get scum lynched.

Separately from that, if VPB had offered a Vi lynch after Hito’s last post I probably would’ve done it; because as soon as Hito broke against me I knew I was the lynch and there was nothing I could do to prevent it so I probably would’ve accepted any lynch that wasn’t my own at that point. I also should’ve figured Vi was actually Zorblag’s partner after she ignored the points referencing Apennine. VPB wasn’t alive long enough in that one to get the intense personal dislike of the scum style from late in that game where we’d basically take whatever lynch was nearby. Maybe it’s still just me, but I saw echoes of that all over Zorblag’s play and for Vi to so casually dismiss it should’ve set off alarm bells for me.

I really think a Hito lynch on D3 would’ve helped the town. Everyone has certain players that they work well with who instead of having arguments have actual discussions (I get the feeling VPB and Vi are this way) and I think SC and I are to that point that we’ll actually talk and listen to each other instead of talking past and around each other and if we were alive together in LYLO I think we would’ve have a much better shot at winning or at least getting one correct lynch.

I also have to agree with VPB and Troll in regards to the benefits offered a town by “non-elite” players. It should be obvious now that I simply struggled to find something scummy in the beginning of the game and basically OMGUS’ed Amished to do something. Of course it didn’t help that Amished then basically screamed “I’m town” to me and put forth the best arguments I'd seen in the game so I basically had to pull a 180 and for whatever reason that really seeemed to influence VPB in LYLO.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I also should’ve figured Vi was actually Zorblag’s partner after she ignored the points referencing Apennine.

I did that. For quite a while. I got talked out of it rather forcefully.

Eh?

~~~

Troll, I did say echoes not that it was an obvious or blatant comparison. Obviously you weren't moving your vote on day one (not when you could easily plant on the biggest town wagon and not move it and never get called on it) but your words said you were willing to lynch tons of people. And by D3 I'm still of the stance that you should have a firm opinion to a large degree and your play was essentially taking whichever of a pair of town lynches you could get, on D1 it might fly where you can accept two or three lynches at a relatively equal level, by D3 I don't buy it.

~~~

Another note, I don't think I've ever felt I had less credibility in a game excepting times when a cop has claimed a guilty on me, than I did in LYLO here. Neither of the other townies wanted anything to do with me and obviously scum wasn't going to lend a hand.