Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!

[xRECKONERx]

Unvote, vote porkchopexpress

PRETTEH SCUMMEH

Who's weth meh?

OOOOH ME ME ME

Vote: Porkchop

Wagon, hooooo!

[SerialClergyman]

Ugh Amished, I hate those questions. At the risk of echoing some of VP,

1) His early positions were vague and weak. Fence sat on VP vs ABR, when called to had very little challenging VP at all, including some things that were arguably flat out contradictions. Tried to use the LAL point after it was obviously null and others had seen it come and go.
2) His attacks have been terrible. The case against me was always bad and a bizarre choice no doubt inspired by the position he was in and the pressure he was under. He then moved to VP for no paritcular reason (I mean come on - if we're voting based on urgency I don't have to move my vote at all!)
3) Shenanigans! Little things I don't like. Unvoting for a re-read and then voting a third party with nothing really instigating the change. The tone of his posts, his choice of targets, how difficult it is to get people who suspect him to vote him, the hyperbole..

[SerialClergyman]

ABR, PCE is up there as scummy for me too but I'm not done with charlatan yet and I'm frustrated you'd pull yet another wagon to distract. Do you have a town read on charlatan now or are you just more confident about PCE?

[charlatan]

Even accusations that I find mildly idiotic (and there have been more than one) I've answered in full and not exactly been dismissive of, so I'm not sure what you think 449 accomplishes (aside from discrediting me.)

Anyways, when the quote in question (saying I found you and ABR more suspicious than anyone else at the time) was made is actually pretty relevant, since most people were not even engaged in the game and the pool of scummy behavior was much smaller.

[VP Baltar]

You know, it's still weird when we agree SC, but I'm almost certain that you're town.

Amished too, but he's stubborn like me.

[SerialClergyman]

To be fair, VP, I think we've only actually been town together once in a completed game, Bigbear's one in which we lost terribly (and agreed on scum D1 though).

Emerald I was scum,
Amished you were cult,
/inv 4 you were scum,
Dark Goma you were scum,

So maybe that's why we haven't agreed much. Interestingly, the results for those games seem to be going my way as well - is that 3.5 to 0.5?

[charlatan]

(I mean come on - if we're voting based on urgency I don't have to move my vote at all!)

Did you just read the last line of the post where I voted VP, or did you read the whole thing? You really, truly don't think that's a bit of a straw man?

[quote="SerialClergyman]
Unvoting for a re-read[/quote]

gasp. scum always do that!!

The tone of his posts

hmm.

ABR, PCE is up there as scummy for me too but I'm not done with charlatan yet and I'm frustrated you'd pull yet another wagon to distract. Do you have a town read on charlatan now or are you just more confident about PCE?

Not done with Charlatan yet? This quote makes it sound like you're still scumhunting me, but you haven't even really been addressing points I've raised for a while now. Everything in your "reasons I'm voting Charlatan" post I've answered, most of which you have never commented on. I'm disappointed for the town that I'm the only one who thinks posts like 451 are an embarrassment.

[charlatan]

You know, it's still weird when we agree SC, but I'm almost certain that you're town.

Oh, before I forget: when was the last time you were almost certain someone was town, and how did that turn out?

[SerialClergyman]

A wise man whose ego may be raised as an unfortunate byproduct of me saying this, once taught me not to try to convince the person you're attacking.

I have looked instead at others who haven't voted you and tried to get them on board, which was the purpose of providing Amished with the reasons to vote you in the first place.

The walls between us have reached a point of diminished returns. I don't think you've answered well. Judging by apparant suspicion of you, we have a majority of the town that's prepared to lynch you, but the votes on you never quite reach where they should be reaching. Your attacks remain terrible. I still think you're scum and want to continue voting you because of that.

[SerialClergyman]

Ugh. See! Yuk. Terribad argument. Does that apply to me as well, charlatan, given last game I went to my death on D1 advocating lynching Amished-the-scum?

[VP Baltar]

So maybe that's why we haven't agreed much. Interestingly, the results for those games seem to be going my way as well - is that 3.5 to 0.5?

wtf is this, heckle-VP day?

And I totally should have won Dark Goma outright. Amished's game we should have won if it weren't for shitty circumstance. so, you

Oh, before I forget: when was the last time you were almost certain someone was town, and how did that turn out?

Fairly well actually. My last completed town game was Last Man Standing and I had a town read on Vi very early even though she was calling for my head and was arguing down my awesome vote on benmage-scum. Thanks for asking.

[charlatan]

Ugh. See! Yuk. Terribad argument. Does that apply to me as well, charlatan, given last game I went to my death on D1 advocating lynching Amished-the-scum?

I was mostly poking fun, don't take things so seriously. He knows what I'm referring to, and anyways I'm of the general opinion that any time you're certain someone's town in the first day or two of the game, that's when it's best to rethink.

[Amished]

@SC: It's kinda my attempt to shut down the fucking walls o' text that you all are putting out. You three combined are about as bad as Mastin; and he's one of two people that I'll never play with again. If we can cut it down the absolutely scummiest actions that you see, we have a better point to see the barebones cases without having to read 1000+ words and checking quotes to see if it's in context or not.

Your {SC} third paragraph in 458 is the best argument (from anybody) that I've seen made for Charlatan-scum. I remember a game where I thought a scumbag was town (MMan IIRC) for something early on; and had weak arguments against him. Yes, they were on the right person, but the arguments weren't put together all that convincingly.

I think xRx is 100% scum but apparently nobody (but DDD, thanks ) cares. Maybe I'll try for tomorrow.

Unvote
Vote: charlatan

L-2 if the only thing that's changed since the last votecount is ABR unvoting and going after PCE (which I'm more and more inclined to agree with as well).

[charlatan]

So, Amished, your entire view changed based on a regurgitation of previous points in a condensed format? Particularly this paragraph:

3) Shenanigans! Little things I don't like. Unvoting for a re-read and then voting a third party with nothing really instigating the change. The tone of his posts, his choice of targets, how difficult it is to get people who suspect him to vote him, the hyperbole.

What about changing gears when I was spinning my wheels with ABR was scummy again? What about "the tone" of my posts is a problem? Etc. etc. This is full of half-arguments and it's weird that it was enough for you to do a total 180, especially since it contains no new content at all.

[charlatan]

Oh, sorry, I thought you meant 451, not 458. 458 is pretty thin too, though, as it assumes that today is going particularly slowly or that a lynch should already have occurred, etc. Really the same position as VP anyways.

[Amished]

No, what mostly convinced me is the fact that there's vocal support but you're not getting lynched. I do see a lot of support for the position that you're scummy, but since you're not lynched that signals to me that scum want to say that they're supporting you, but don't want to buss you D1.

Otherwise (you-town) would have scum slowly going towards your wagon and building up to your lynch. With the support and resistance out there, the overall game-state makes me believe you're scum rather than anything in particular that you've done or anything that SC/VP has put against you.

[SerialClergyman]

wtf is this, heckle-VP day?

If it was heckle VP day I'd point out that I think I called you out as scum (or at least had very heavy suspicions of you) in all three.

Oh - oops!

Amished - I'd already been moving away from walls, which is what i was saying to charlatan. But I understand your point. I have consistently mentioned that it's hard to draw votes onto charlatan recently, not just in 458.

I was mostly poking fun, don't take things so seriously. He knows what I'm referring to, and anyways I'm of the general opinion that any time you're certain someone's town in the first day or two of the game, that's when it's best to rethink.

Fair enough. I'm probably the wrong person to say this too though, I've actually tried playing games where for the first day ALL I do is look for town and then lynch pretty much randomly amongst the rest. I think town reads are important, and especially so early.

[Amished]

Yeah, a lot gets lost in the big walls just cause I CBA'd to read all that crap going back and forth.

Judging by apparant suspicion of you, we have a majority of the town that's prepared to lynch you, but the votes on you never quite reach where they should be reaching.

[Amished]

@SC: I only noticed that you really stated that you didn't like that people were supporting the wagon without voting once, when I think you brought up Vi and Ojanen.

I really feel I'm on the right track with Char in a just read of the players (leaning tunneled townie); but the rest of the game (in my eyes) doesn't agree with that read. I realize that there's only 3 scum, but out of my current top 4 scumspects; 2 are on the Charlatan wagon. It could still be that the town has the same reservations (or not) and don't want to vote for somebody that they have doubts about.

@Everyone *not* voting Char: What is your main reason for voting for somebody else? (directed at
2. Albert B. Rampage (on PCE)
5. Ojanen (on VPB)
8. xRECKONERx (on SC)
10. PorkchopExpress (on DDD)
11. Debonair Danny DiPietro (on xRx)
12. Vi (on DDD))

In the case of ABR/xRx who recently voted, oblige me with a sentence if you would, please.

[Head_Honcho]

Votecount:

charlatan(5): SerialClergyman, Zorblag, VP Baltar, Sando, Amished
Debonair Danny DiPietro(2): Vi, PorkchopExpress
xRECKONERx(1): Debonair Danny DiPietro
VPBaltar(2): Ojanen, charlatan
PorkchopExpress(2): Albert B. Rampage, xRECKONERx

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

[xRECKONERx]

Amished, are you completely convinced I'm scum solely because of your supposed scumtell you developed?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD - In case you missed it, please see 406.

Is 406 really relevant any more given 413?

Yes. Is there a particular reason not to answer it? Even though you're not voting Amished, understanding some things about why you voted in the first place helps my read on you, especially when you alluded to having additional reasons for your vote on him that you never expounded on.

As scum there's a very good amount of information that can be learned by pushing such an idea; particularly the people accused of being linked together. Depending on the person a too defensive position might mean one thing and trying to ignore the issue might mean another, but there's certainly potential value.

[Amished]

@xRx: Yes. Especially after rereading the early game to look for something else, Scien was really scummy during that period as well, which is why I had my vote on him.

[VP Baltar]

Amished, here is how you know you are on the right track with charlatan: Your top suspect, xRx, has charlatan as number 1 on his scum list but never votes him. Instead he hops onto ABR's Porkchop vote with speed. Now, Porkchop was his number 2 suspect, but let's look at what he says about him:

Porkchop and Scien are both very inactive ;_;

Vi is almost certainly town btw. I have yet to see a Vi post that I haven't viewed as pro-town, and post 297 calls out exactly how I was feeling about Porkchop's "catchup" post.

I like ABR's top three scum in 323 minus Amished. Put VPB in for Amished and I think that's more in line. Porkchop might be in there as well, depending on how the next few pages shake out.

And that's it. Number 2 suspect! Feel free to compare that to how much he calls charlatan scummy and even says:

I support SC's 241 vote of charlatan, who seems like the best lynch candidate at this point.

[Ojanen]

Ok, VP doesn't read as scum in the last pages. The way he handles his ego is townish, and I like charlatan less again with some of his arguments against VP.

unvote

I'm happy with the charlatan case and unhappy with ojanen pushing it but not jumping on it.

This is getting a little blah.
Look, if you're making this argument based on meta, you should stop ignoring the most relevant meta, which is me starting a game from scratch as town, which has happened twice before this game. Hambargarzville and /inv 4, both of which you were in too, both of which I spent a significant part of D1 not voting at all, neither of which had a good D1 for town. There's a

reason

to why I almost always replace in and wrap my dirty fingers hungrily to the already available material.
That answer goes for Sando too, except for the being in it part.
As to Sando's question about me trying to influence my meta, I never claimed anything intentional. Merely glee for my mafialife not being straightjacketed by an obviously transparent meta.

@Ojanen: DDD’s repeated claims of being a pro-town lurker without actually doing anything to earn the pro-town part of that label strike me as more palpably scummy than Charlatan’s shenanigans at the moment. You haven’t really mentioned DDD as of yet, I’m interested to know what your take on him is.

Someone arrogantly claiming to be pro-town isn't a scumtell to me, and I'm not sure why it seems to be a large part of his scumminess to you, unless the whole argument is lurking. I don't necessarily like his attitude or the level of contribution, but I haven't felt anything that opportunistic yet, and he's felt fairly transparent and not that departed from the town-DDD I saw in Amished village.
He's neutral, or even a bit in the fair side of neutral.

I am weak. More in a bit.