DP12 JeepFest Mafia GAME OVER

[Axelrod]

I apologize I haven't had time to concentrate on this game recently. I have had several things going on, and now I'm actually going on vacation. I'll be gone from 8-6-05 to 8-13-05 with possibly no internet access at all.

I don't have a strong feeling about anyone right now. In fact, I have a bad feeling the mafia may all be laying low out of the spotlight. So I am declining to vote, rather than just throw one out without serious justification.

Sorry again. I'll try to pick things up when I get back (assuming I am still around ).

[Leonidas]

I'll go ahead and

confirm vote: Mr Stoofer

.

[Nox]

I'd like to know why you find Stoofer scummy.

[Dragon Phoenix]

Vote count, nine to evict:

Nox 4 (rolandofthewhite, Mr Stoofer, MeMe, Fuldu)
Mr Stoofer 3 (Leonidas, TSS, Someone)
Someone 2 (Loudmouthlee, The Shadow)
Peacebringer 1 (Nanook)
MeMe 1 (Vesuvan)

[NanookTheWolf]

Vote: Nox

Need to do something, and between Nox and Someone, I'm more inclined to lynch Nox ..

As for the Mr. Stoofer bit, I don't really have time to go back and see why he is being voted for right now.

[the silent speaker]

So, MeMe, why

did

you leap to the assumption that Someone knew Nox's innocence for sure? You never said.

Nanook, you say you're "more inclined to lynch Nox"? Why? I personally am disinclined to lynch

either

Nox or Someone now.

[MeMe]

Well, since you asked, I'll stop watching who twists what to clear it up.

I

didn't

assume or say that he knew it. I said that he

can't

know it. Big difference.

Someone: If you're telling the truth, you know you're innocent...but you

can't

know that Nox is.

And when you don't know for sure that someone's innocent, you shouldn't protect him/her by giving up your own life.

Who

did

leap to the conclusion that Someone knew Nox was innocent? Vesuvan.

Also, I think I know how Someone knows Nox is town. I'm pretty sure from that Someone is also town.

[Fuldu]

I personally am disinclined to lynch

either

Nox or Someone now.

Why? You believe them both unlikely to have counted on the town not remembering that the townie role PM was public knowledge? As far as I see that's all they have going for them, and I'm unconvinced. We've lost three plain townies so far, and this is essentially three more who have claimed it. In a 20 person game, that's a lot of powerless roles. I don't believe that all three of Nox, Someone, and Vesuvan are pro-town, and I'm perfectly willing to sacrifice the plain townie(s) who are telling the truth to find the one(s) who aren't.

[the silent speaker]

MeMe:

I didn't assume or say that he knew it. I said that he

can't

know it. Big difference.

But he never said or implied that he

could

. So why say this at all?
Fuldu:

Why? You believe them both unlikely to have counted on the town not remembering that the townie role PM was public knowledge?

No, I just believe both of their role claims. Besides, I never was particularly suspicious of Nox and Someone's willingness to have himself deadline-lynched swayed me. Scum wouldn't look suspicious by not deadline-lynching themselves, so what would Scumone have to gain?

[LoudmouthLee]

Since our Mod is DP, I might as well start by saying the following:

If you are bandwagoned and a plain townie, bite the bullet. The contitunal claiming only gives the mafia more info about the setup.

After much consideration, i'm going to

Unvote: Someone and Vote: Saberkitty with a dash of FoS: Nox

With that, I'm concerned about the following:

1) Saberkitty's absense... especially while she got out of a bandwagon by claiming that OTHERS were not posting.

2) Nox, Someone, Vesuvan... At this point in time, the one claim that doesn't sit well with me is Polarboy... being originally from the GL, I know that majority of the people who would be in this variant. On my list of 30, Polarboy was nowhere in sight.

[Nox]

Yes, and me, having been around for what, 2 months now, am supposed to know who the hell Polarboy is.

I think that might be why Someone doesn't think I'm scum.

[Someone]

The game isn't just made out of GLers, LmL.

Polarboy was a very well-respected scummer, in his time. Maybe "his time" came before you got here? Because I have no problem in believing that DP would have him in the game.

[Nox]

O.o
Cool n.n

[LoudmouthLee]

Sorry if i'm a little cynical.

profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=288

Less than 400 posts? I see he has a sticky topic in one of the forums, but other than that, I can't see why h was included in the setup.

[MeMe]

MeMe:

I didn't assume or say that he knew it. I said that he

can't

know it. Big difference.

But he never said or implied that he

could

. So why say this at all?

I repeat: because when you don't know for sure that someone's innocent, you shouldn't protect him/her by giving up your own life.

[MeMe]

After a re-read of recent events, I've got a couple of things to say.

First, just in case tss

truly

isn't understanding me, I'm going to give an example to prevent us going 'round and 'round.

Johnny: I'm pretty sure this bridge is safe to cross, so I'm going to cross it.
Sally: But you can't know that bridge is safe to cross, so why risk it?

Sally's making a specific point that because Johnny can't be sure of its safety, the move to act on an assumption is a poor one. If Johnny had said he KNOWS the bridge is safe, there'd be less room for Sally's concern. The very lack of "know" in Johnny's statement shows it as an assumption that could be incorrect.

In Someone's case (if he's telling the truth), he was saying that it was better for him (a claimed townie) to die than Nox (a claimed townie)...something that I thought was a huge risk and should be pointed out as such.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Second, if tss doesn't understand the above example, I'll just have to assume that he's not interested in understanding.

tss -- I'm already wondering about your motive since you were the person to misrepresent the wording of my post...

All I saw her do was ask how, given that Someone is a plain townie, he *knows* that Nox is one too.

...when the actual wording was...

Someone: If you're telling the truth, you know you're innocent...but you

can't

know that Nox is. And why wouldn't we learn just as much from a Nox lynch (who claims to be townie, just like you) as yours?

Nowhere do I ask Someone "how he knows." What I did ask was why he'd sacrifice himself for something he

doesn't

know.

Just five posts after the one above (where you say "All I saw her do..."), you say...

We've established that her leap from "believe" to "know" was unwarranted

...which no one besides yourself even mentioned. You apparently believe that you saying something once makes it "established." You then challenged me with...

So, MeMe, why

did

you leap to the assumption that Someone knew Nox's innocence for sure? You never said.

...where, again, you use the word "leap" which is your wording, no one else's, and put it forth as evidence. I answered with "I didn't." So, you've applied actions to me that are demonstrably untrue while ignoring the fact that Vesuvan actually

did

do the thing you find so questionable, i.e. said that Someone knows Nox is innocent.

And now you're changing your tack...which is interesting. Before it was "why did you say Someone knew"? When I show you that's not what I said, you feel the need to counter with "But he never said or implied that he

could

. So why say this [know] at all?" Which I'd already explained in my answering post (and repeated right before this one, in case you'd honestly missed it). Take the bridge example. If Johnny'd said "I KNOW this bridge is safe," Sally'd be a worrywart to argue. But since Someone made it clear that it was a belief, not absolute knowledge, my use of the word is appropriate.

Basically, I've been looking at your posts as fairly "on my side" -- but now I'm wondering at your pushing of an issue that no one else is pushing while still giving the appearance of defending me.

[the silent speaker]

The way you underlined "can't" seemed to be implying that you were responding to a statement or implication that he could. When you said you didn't mean to imply that you were responding to such a thing, I asked why say what appeared to be a simple truism then. That's not a tack change, it's a followup.

"We've established that her leap from "believe" to "know" was unwarranted" was referencing me and Vesuvan, who clearly did take your statement as assuming that Someone claimed to know something.

If Johnny'd said "I KNOW this bridge is safe," Sally'd be a worrywart to argue. But since Someone made it clear that it was a belief, not absolute knowledge, my use of the word is appropriate.

Well, if it's semantics we're arguing, then the conjunction you should have used in the original post is "

So

why wouldn't lynching Nox etc.?" "And" implies a separate question.

Basically, I've been looking at your posts as fairly "on my side" -- but now I'm wondering at your pushing of an issue that no one else is pushing while still giving the appearance of defending me.

Vesuvan was pushing it too. In fact, he's still voting you over it. And if it's a plain statement you want -- as of this post, I don't believe you are scum. Happier?

[Nox]

Alright. To this point, here are a couple of things that I'd like clarified.

To everyone who is voting/FOSing Mr Stoofer: I'd like to know why. It may sound weird, but as of now, I'm seeing that alot of people are going against him, without much reasoning. I'm not against, nor with him at this moment, I'd just like further information on the case.

To Meme: Though you never specified why exactly, your vote is still on me, as you said, deliberatly. I'd like to request those specifications please.

[MeMe]

I "specified why exactly" when I placed my vote (post 306) and nothing's changed from my perspective.

I still find the blue text to be questionable. I thought that you might be gently hinting that you were SaberKitty...but you wound up claiming PolarBoy instead -- a player, I'll point out, who is no longer active enough to be considered "well-known" (a specification Dragon Phoenix placed in the opening post for non-attendees) by anyone but oldtimers. I think the name may have been selected specifically

because

he was unlikely to actually be in the game/counter-claimed but could still be argued as being well-known due to his former status. Back to the color -- you claimed that you were using the steelblue because you have an "obsession" with the color and "usually" post in online forums with it. If you can link me to evidence that you actually

do

post that way in most places, I'd consider moving my vote.

Basically: I think you've acted scummily. At worst, we lynch a townie. At best, we lynch scum.

[Vesuvan]

The last page is a perfect example of what I'm voting MeMe for, Fuldu.

[Fuldu]

That's interesting, Vesuvan, because except for the bit about well-known (I've been around here and the GL awhile now and I don't know who Ataraxy is) I agree with pretty much everything in MeMe's last post. The last line, in particular, sums up my feelings on the subject very nicely.

As for your larger argument, that MeMe wouldn't be behaving this way if she had a power role, I still have to disagree. MeMe might not behave this way if she were a doctor or a cop, but a variety of lesser roles might. In particular, if speaking out is going to make her a target (which it could), then that would be perfectly reasonable behavior for a mason (who can hedge against lynch but for whom little is lost if she's night-killed) or a hider (trying to make herself a night target, knowing she's protected). By the same token, if she's scum, vocal behavior is just asking to be investigated.

[Dragon Phoenix]

Well, I don't get the impression that this town can come to a regular majority any time soon. And I hate long drawn-out games.

Deadline Thursday 8PM GMT

Whatever happens, this deadline stands.

[Someone]

Basically: I think you've acted scummily. At worst, we lynch a townie. At best, we lynch scum.

That's the thing. At worst, we lynch a townee. Justifying myself voting for well...myself... I'd just like to say I thought (and still think) that it was more than likely that nox is innocent. Now, there is a

chance

that I'm wrong.

In my eyes:

If we lynched nox there was a good chance that she was a townee and we would gain little from her lynch, and a small chance that she's mafia.

If we lynched me, I'm a townee but you can gain loads of info from my lynch.

From there, it's just an arguement of semantics. I thought the info that we could get from my lynch would be more helpful than the small chance that nox was maf. MeMe did not. MeMe, I ask you this. If you were in my place, and you were

sure

that somebody was innocent (without actually knowing it, of course), would you at least consider voting yourself? Or does that little chance that she's not innocent outweigh the rest.

Anyways, all of this to say, I don't think MeMe is scummy for what she did, just that her views differ from mine.

I do find the arguements she has against nox to be weak though. I'll wait to see if nox can supply some linkage before I comment on the blue thing. I'll just say I found post 306 to not have real evidence in it...when nox voted roland, roland was showing no indications of being a power role. If he was a power role, he would have claimed as such before he got lynched (like he did). Especially for somebody that is relatively new in this game, the roland-is-a-power-role logic may have been lost on her.

[Nox]

I "specified why exactly" when I placed my vote (post 306) and nothing's changed from my perspective.

I still find the blue text to be questionable. I thought that you might be gently hinting that you were SaberKitty...but you wound up claiming PolarBoy instead -- a player, I'll point out, who is no longer active enough to be considered "well-known" (a specification Dragon Phoenix placed in the opening post for non-attendees) by anyone but oldtimers. I think the name may have been selected specifically

because

he was unlikely to actually be in the game/counter-claimed but could still be argued as being well-known due to his former status. Back to the color -- you claimed that you were using the steelblue because you have an "obsession" with the color and "usually" post in online forums with it. If you can link me to evidence that you actually

do

post that way in most places, I'd consider moving my vote.

Basically: I think you've acted scummily. At worst, we lynch a townie. At best, we lynch scum.

steel

blue color.
http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/search. ... hor=266125

My list of posting. You will notice that again, posting is not

always

in steelblue. For instance, I sometimes enjoy using pink, though it is sore to the eyes. I also usually post in small fonts, and in bold. However, on here, because of the color of the background, small steelblue lettering is difficult to read. Secondly, since we bold votes, I've opted against bolding the whole of my text.

Satisfied?

[Nox]

If you think that I have some kind of post restriction linked to my role beeing Saberkitty (That you will of course assume is the SK), I can simply stop posting in steelblue for the rest of the game. I have no posting restrictions.