DP12 JeepFest Mafia GAME OVER

[Fuldu]

Either way, if Commodore Amazing is scum, then it would imply that Axelrod is town.

Other than the suspicions list, I think I agree with most of what you say in that last post, Nox, but I wouldn't mind an explanation of the above sentence. If it's just "CA wouldn't vote for partner scum," then I disagree, but if there's more to it than that, I'd be interested to hear it.

[Someone]

The problem I have with axelrod's latest humungo-post, is that there is no real point to it. The posts you outlined are very much typical LmL behaviour.

If you're going to quote all the posts of a player, it should be so you can show us something more concrete. Targetting lurkers and hopping a couple bandwagons are very much part of the game, and if you're going to suspect people for it, you might as well lynch the whole town.

I'll give you that you did point out a couple of things that were interesting in that post, but overall your analysis was not extrememly convincing to me.

Since fuldu just stole the top of the page from you...mod, vote count?

[Nox]

Either way, if Commodore Amazing is scum, then it would imply that Axelrod is town.

Other than the suspicions list, I think I agree with most of what you say in that last post, Nox, but I wouldn't mind an explanation of the above sentence. If it's just "CA wouldn't vote for partner scum," then I disagree, but if there's more to it than that, I'd be interested to hear it.

Actually, there is. I'm referring to a repeat behavior of yesterday, when CA jumped on Stoofer's bandwagon, for the exact same reasons as today. Scum jumping on the Stoofer wagon makes alot of sense, because in their view, Stoofer was town. I'm assuming that CA's nearly exact behavior as yesterday's would mean that today's target would be or appear town

in the eyes of the mafia

. Of course, this is all implying that Commodore Amazing would be scum.

[MeMe]

CA -- why "follow" Leonidas? We now know that there was no investigation possible in his accusation of Stoofer, so it doesn't make sense to treat him like a cop. It's one thing to say that Axel's posts look scummy for whatever reason, but to vote him purely on Leo's say-so looks opportunistic to me.

I also see the points against Axel, but am uneasy about the "and if

he

is..." stuff (obviously). It also doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me for scum to jump out there with a wordy case against one player at this point. Basically, the game's going their way right now...why say "look at me" before even seeing if it's necessary? This could be just bad play; but it'd actually qualify as

horrible

play if Axel's scum. I've just come off a game where we were mafia together and he was careful and smart there. Doesn't mean he can't make a mistake here -- but, like I said, this would be a doozy for scum. That said, I find his points against Lee rather petty regardless of his alignment.

At this point I lean toward CA. His attempt to implicate people for "protecting" the SK was nonsensical. But there are still four players yet to check in today and, as it's getting rather necessary that we nail scum soon, I'd like to hear from everyone before we get too far in the voting.

[Nox]

I'm also concerned about Commodore Amazing's voting pattern.

During the game, he's targeted rolandthewhite(Mackay, rnf, confirmed town), Pbug(confimed townie), Saberkitty(Tabatha, Doctor, confirmed town), Mr Stoofer(SK, but appeared town in the eyes of the Mafia).

All of these appear as town in the eyes of the mafia.

Also worth mentionning, his other vote targets were:
Someone(Claimed MATTHEWV, townie, believed by most), Nox(Claimed Polarboy, townie, believed by most), Vesuvan(semi-claimed townie, believed by most)
All of these also appear town in the eyes of the mafia, of course, assuming that their claims are true.

As well, CA targeted by vote TSS, whom might I say could hardly be scum.

And lastly, there is Axelrod.

[Commodore Amazing]

I'm assuming Leonidas is a roleblocker who got Stoofer night 1, Axelrod night 2, Stoofer night 3. Axelrod could be the scum who makes the kills. Leonidas is my best bet for a GG. I would feel like one of us is making a mistaking if we're not voting together.

I have major issues with MeMe and Nox right now. I think they're trying to get a bandwagon on me to prevent their scum buddy Axelrod from getting lynched. They will be sorry to hear that I am capable of claiming my role, and many players will confirm it as GG. If you're scum, you're out of luck, and an attempted bandwagon on me is doomed. If you're town, use your energies elsewhere, and start all your theories with "Given that Commodore Amazing isn't scum..."

This last part might be farfetched, but it's possible that the scum have an investigative power like Rolando's, and they knew SaberKitty was "Talitha." That sounds like a pretty good role to lynch, doesn't it? I can't believe Nox is trying to lynch me for voting for the serial killer as opposed to the doctor, and it looks like MeMe is trying to cover for her.

I would like to hear from PeaceBringer.

fos: MeMe, Nox

[Axelrod]

Apparantly I can't win no matter what I say, but never let it be said that I didn't keep plugging away.

Do you not see the difference that I'm trying to point to? You have a list of eight people for whom you feel greater suspicion but regarding whom you have little concrete evidence to present. You then immediately follow that up with a single concrete argument against two of them. To my mind, that clearly implies a greater degree of suspicion regarding those two, or at least it ought to. The comment I made about having very little basis for your suspicion was not a criticism so much as it was an attempt at a comparison between what you were saying about the eight and what you were saying about the two. I will admit to having criticized the quality of the second argument, since it basically relies on Mafia both knowing the identity of the SK and having some reason to protect him.

Yes, I see the difference. But that really is a case of making a mountain out of a molehill. I do have a somewhat higher degree of suspicion on LmL, and I

tried

to explain why. The remark about "if the scum have a way to identify power roles..." was just a thought. Possibly relevant later if we get more information, but not something to base any kind of case on today.

On the other hand, when you make a post saying I posted a list of "suspicious" people with "very little basis" I feel justified responding to that because it misrepresents what I was doing. For you to say you didn't

mean

it as a criticism, but were just making a comparison, is shady. You also didn't answer my question as to whether you agreed with the list or not.

But more tellingly, the argument you've chosen to respond to is the one that I explicitly said didn't contribute to my opinion of you as scum. It's an argument about linkages, which only means something if we have additional information about one of the players being linked. I think you're scum because of the way you're fishing for information. All of what you've responded to in the quoted paragraph is about the highly secondary question of whether MeMe is scum with you.

I responded to that to. I wish you would be more precise where you think "I'm fishing" if it's more than just the post about Stoofer possibly being role-blocked. I tend to speculate. That's how I am.

The problem I have with axelrod's latest humungo-post, is that there is no real point to it. The posts you outlined are very much typical LmL behaviour.

If you're going to quote all the posts of a player, it should be so you can show us something more concrete. Targetting lurkers and hopping a couple bandwagons are very much part of the game, and if you're going to suspect people for it, you might as well lynch the whole town.

I'll give you that you did point out a couple of things that were interesting in that post, but overall your analysis was not extrememly convincing to me.

The "point" was to provide a basis for the vote, which I hadn't really done yet. You may not think it's a very good basis, and you are certainly entitled to feel that way, but that's what I'm doing. I have no idea what is typical LmL behavior, having never played with him before.

The post may have been a bit of overkill, but I didn't want to be accused of misrepresenting anything (notice how that didn't work). And please, this is my opinion--please don't say I'm misrepresenting when I'm giving an opinion. If it makes you feel better, put an "I believe" or an "I think" at the beginning of each statement, I thought that was implied.

Obviously there's nothing totally "concrete" against anybody yet, or we would be lynching that person, I imagine. LmL is a good candidate to pressure, in my opinion. He's not the only one, but he's escaped serious attention thus far.

[MeMe]

Interesting theory about Leo's role, CA. But we had two deaths last night. Are you suggesting that one of them was the work of a vigilante? And if Leo were a blocker who assumed he was successful Night 1, why would he switch targets Night 2?

Still doesn't make me want to start everything with "given CA isn't scum," but it's better than what looked like a blind follow.

[MeMe]

Ah -- forget that. I just realized he didn't vote Stoofer until Day 2. I thought he did that "and I mean it" post earlier. So your theory looks even better to me now.

[Fuldu]

At this point I lean toward CA. His attempt to implicate people for "protecting" the SK was nonsensical.

I like my Axelrod vote better, and note that he made much the same argument about protecting the SK that CA did. But I can comfortably move over to a CA bandwagon if that seems to be where we're headed. And I wouldn't worry too much about the "if he is scum" stuff yet, MeMe. I'm not particularly suspicious of you, but was just pointing out that I'd want to take a better look if we get to that point.

Nox, the problem with your argument is that it can equally be used to vilify pretty much anybody who has voted during the entire game. Almost all of the bandwagons we've had so far are on the players you've represented as looking like town to scum. So it's no surprise that someone like CA, who tends to be a vote-hopper, would come across as particularly scummy in that case. If you want to call him scum because he's been happy to move his vote around to pretty much any bandwagon that's cropped up, I can get behind that argument. But the fact is that a lot of people play that way, whether they're town or scum.

I also don't like the train of thought that's saying "a person (in this case tss) who posts a big long analysis of voting trends couldn't possibly be scum." For one thing, said individual is going to know what sorts of trends they're going to look for and can make sure not to do things that will put their name amongst the suspicious. For another, almost all the verbalized responses to the posts have been "Well, I don't understand it, but scum wouldn't do that." Nobody seems to be reading them very carefully, as evidenced by the fact that even people who seem to think highly of tss because of them aren't voting for the players he's recommending. To my mind, that's exactly the sort of posts scum should make, arguments that nobody really pays attention to or examines all that carefully, but that make you look like the pro-towniest thing going.

[Someone]

I disagree. If I'm scum, I would have to be pretty gutsy to analyse stuff like tss. Just as our voting patterns tend to reveal us as scum, so would tss's accusations. All this analysis he's making is helping the town get a better read on him. If he's scum, he's extremely careful scum that needs to cover his tracks just in case his mafia buddy dies and possibly incriminates him.

I'm in no way saying that tss is cleared, but the way he's going about analysing votes and things seems like a pro-town thing to do.

[NanookTheWolf]

TSS .. You think that I am scum because of the way I've been voting? I just need some clarity here.

[Fuldu]

Ooh, lots of posts while I was typing...

On the other hand, when you make a post saying I posted a list of "suspicious" people with "very little basis" I feel justified responding to that because it misrepresents what I was doing.

From the same post in which I mentioned that there was little basis for your votes:

To your credit, I like the point you've made about LML accusing you of Crap Logic when you haven't actually expressed much more than gut feelings.

I'm acknowledging that these are your gut feelings, which, as I understand that and all subsequent posts, is what you were doing - offering up a list of the people that you think merit more attention. I still feel that providing an additional argument for two of them, over and above the presentation of a list, suggests you consider them more deserving of attention, especially when you follow that up with a vote on one of them, a vote which you later justify with:

LmL is a good candidate to pressure, in my opinion. He's not the only one, but he's escaped serious attention thus far.

And furthermore, given that they're your gut feelings, I don't see what difference it makes whether I agree with your list or not. I don't disagree with any of the things you've specifically said in the list, even about me. I actually found your characterization of me as "hard to read" to be flattering. But I clearly do disagree with even the suggestion that that means I'm scum. And given that I don't draw the same conclusions you do, and that even you've admitted that the list isn't based on very much, I haven't actually given my opinions on it that much thought.

I responded to that to. I wish you would be more precise where you think "I'm fishing" if it's more than just the post about Stoofer possibly being role-blocked. I tend to speculate. That's how I am.

I think that you're talking about whoever blocked the various kills in the hopes that they will say or do something to give themself away. In and of itself, speculating on what happened isn't necessarily suspicious. Commodore Amazing has presented a roleblocker theory as a means of explaining his behavior with regards to Leonidas. But when you talk about missed kills only in the context of the SK when there was a missed mafia kill, as well, that seems suspicious. And, as I mentioned somewhat more circumspectly in the initial post, that "nice work" bit bothered me.

The first player to congratulate the doctor is scum or doctor

This isn't totally applicable in this circumstance since there are a variety of other reasons Stoofer might have missed his kills, but enough so that it made me uncomfortable. That, all together, is why I felt that this was fishing rather than speculating.

[The Shadow]

Vote: Commodore

simply because I felt he was suspicious yesterday (and noted it. I'm too lazy to find the exact quote just now), and his latest "could the mafia have been trying to protect him" line (that MeMe noted) sounds pretty silly. I don't recall having played with him before, so it may be just his playing style, but it bugs me.

[NanookTheWolf]

It's been 2 weeks since your last post, and you don't even say hello first?

[Dragon Phoenix]

Vote count, 8 to kick someone out

:

Axelrod 4 (Fuldu, Leonidas, Commodore Amazing, Vesuvan)
Commodore Amazing 2 (Nox, The Shadow)
Loudmouthlee (Axelrod)
EnterYourNameHere (Loudmouthlee)

[LoudmouthLee]

Well.. time for me to post, and for once, I'm struggling to find the right words for this.

I feel that a game like Mafia, when you sign up for it, gets hurt drastically by players who cannot keep their commitment to the game. If you think hunting lurkers is wrong, Axelrod and Nox, then I'll love to watch you modkill 5 players in a game you worked hard to create and mod. [/sour grapes]

I hunt lurkers because they deserve to be hinted, and I really want to vote for you, but I can see the "OMGUS" posts you're bound to throw at me.

If you have a real, legit problem with any of my posts, I'll be happy to go line by line and explain my reasoning. In honesty, your play has been sloppy as hell for a townie, and downright awful as scum. you have gone through a PBPA against me with nothing to show for it besides Someone's apropos comment:

The problem I have with axelrod's latest humungo-post, is that there is no real point to it. The posts you outlined are very much typical LmL behaviour.

If you're going to quote all the posts of a player, it should be so you can show us something more concrete. Targetting lurkers and hopping a couple bandwagons are very much part of the game, and if you're going to suspect people for it, you might as well lynch the whole town.

At the same token, you can look at the things Gandhi says for long enough and begin to think he's Mafia, too.

As of right now, My vote on EYNH stays, but

FoS: Axelrod

for being the scummiest player I have seen in a while and

FoS: The Shadow

for, after a long absence, not posting anything of value at all.

[MeMe]

It looks like EYNH hasn't posted anywhere since August 6. Could he get a prod?

Also, I was thinking that PB had claimed that he's only allowed to post once a day and CA's pressuring him to post quickly was weird. But looking closely at his one post yesterday, it appears that he was planning not to drop acid tonight so that he could discuss strategy (though the wording is pretty confusing...so I'm not completely sure I'm right).

The info is very lose. I prefer not to take a trip on this night and sort out with folks what to present of images. The clue I got last night was a series of words/images some not connected to the previous. So I don't know what to make or how to help. I haven't seen anything of the day that makes me go, hmm follow that line of reasoning. So we shall see you next day if I live but I have a feeling the info is more confusing then anything.

My thought is if alive we can sort it out and if I die at least I won't confuse anyone.

Anyway, I join with CA in requesting that PB tells us what he's got.

[Vesuvan]

I disagree. If I'm scum, I would have to be pretty gutsy to analyse stuff like tss. Just as our voting patterns tend to reveal us as scum, so would tss's accusations. All this analysis he's making is helping the town get a better read on him. If he's scum, he's extremely careful scum that needs to cover his tracks just in case his mafia buddy dies and possibly incriminates him.

I'm in no way saying that tss is cleared, but the way he's going about analysing votes and things seems like a pro-town thing to do.

Just to back Fuldu up here, the "big-posts-when-scum" bit is something of a trademark of my playstyle on Misetings (where Axelrod is also a member). It's something Thesp and Seol are also well known for over there. The idea behind it is to present a lot of information and analysis, which is for the most part accurate, but which you can also interpret in ways that help you when you can get away with it.

It often leads to the person providing the analysis giving the town one of their own people, but it also allows that person to direct the town toward a mis-lynch in situations where it is critical for the town to lynch a certain person, and helps to direct conversation to get information regarding certain people (my specialty has been getting doctors and vigilantes lynched and cops to expose themselves).

Don't assume that just because someone makes long, analytical posts that they can not be scum. It's a strategy that has worked quite a few times.

[the silent speaker]

TSS .. You think that I am scum because of the way I've been voting?

For the most part, yes. But I've also been getting a somewhat scummy vibe from you all game, though I never actually went back for a PBPA. A few things that caught my eye in your posts, now that I am looking at them:

Here I was just gettin ready to vote for someone, and I find that I'm already voting for him.

which implies that you found Someone scummy now, though you had originally voted him as a random. Fair enough. But your next post included this line:

Plus the bit on Someone was mainly for fun on my part.

which implies that your Someone vote was still mainly random!

Need to do something, and between Nox and Someone, I'm more inclined to lynch Nox ..

At this point I asked you why you felt inclined to lynch either at all, since by this point both were strongly probable town. You never answered.

We have four people with votes. Half the votes on the two leaders are by people I find more suspicious than the people they're voting for, and Axelrod's long post has me unimpressed: for one thing, most of his points from the early going are things LML has already been called on and IMO acquitted himself. So I guess I'll

vote: EnterYourNameHere

.

Nox's idea that Cmdr. A's presence on the Stooferwagon suggests it was scum-supported because they would know he wasn't one of their own is rather weak without anything outside to bolster it; after all, they would also know that SaberKitty wasn't one of their own. Added to that, reading scum presence form Cmdr. A's assumes its conclusion. His presence means nothing unless he is scum; you can't say, "Oh, he was there, therefore scum was there, therefore he is one of the scum."
As far as complaining that everybody he's voted for has turned up non-mafia... that applies to every vote cast in the game.

I think the logistics of Leo-the-blocker don't quite work out. If he thought he might have blocked a Stoofer kill night 1, why didn't he accuse him until day

2

? And then he should have blocked Axelrod again night 3, if he thought that block had gotten lucky the first time; blocking Mr Stoofer as Cmdr. A suggests would have been a pretty dumb move as Mr Stoofer was by then too deceased to do any harm. Yet clearly he did not do so, as the Mafia's kill worked just fine. So at the very least Leo's vote for Axelrod is not based on a successful block.

Leonidas is my best bet for a GG. I would feel like one of us is making a mistaking if we're not voting together.

Wha ba fuh? Just because Leonidas is town (and I agree with you on that much, at least) doesn't mean you should vote together. For one thing, he might be wrong. For another, you might be voting for two different scum. Blind following=bad idea.

I appreciate all of your trust in me and my long posts, but Fuldu and Vesuvan are right: the best appreciation I can get for them is for you to judge them on their merits and decide how you want to react to my thoughts.

One more thing:

If you think hunting lurkers is wrong, Axelrod and Nox, then I'll love to watch you modkill 5 players in a game you worked hard to create and mod.

Only five? You wuss.

[the silent speaker]

[double post erased - DP]

[Fuldu]

blocking Mr Stoofer as Cmdr. A suggests would have been a pretty dumb move as Mr Stoofer was by then too deceased to do any harm.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense to me. Can you clarify what you're trying to say there?

[the silent speaker]

Never mind, I brainfarted that we lynched Mr Stoofer instead of SaberKitty. My bad, ignore that.

[The Shadow]

It's been 2 weeks since your last post, and you don't even say hello first?

Hello first.

Actually, I really am sorry I haven't been posting. While I have been a bit busy, it's mostly just I've been getting behind on the reading and been too lazy to spend enough time thinking about everything to say anything more substantial then, "Sorry I haven't posted lately."

I'll work on it and hopefully spend a little more time on it then I have been.

[Dragon Phoenix]

Enteryournamehere will be replaced.