DP12 JeepFest Mafia GAME OVER

[Nox]

Okay, MeMe has essentially claimed. I'm curious what the extent of her abilities are, though she probably knows better whether to tell us what they are or not.

I'm very inclined to trust Leo, Fuldu, and (to some extent) MeMe here. Fuldu went after Axelrod pretty hard in the first and third days. LoudmouthLee went after Axelrod pretty hard earlier this game. He either got lucky that no one went along with him, or he's probably clean too.

My number one person to lynch is Nox. She went after me when Axelrod was getting votes yesterday. Axelrod was also eager to accept Vesuvan's, Someone's, and Nox's claims. Axelrod also joined a Someone bandwagon to save (?) Nox.

I'm going to wait to hear from the other power roles / confirmed good guys before I vote.

I did not attempt to vig anyone last night.

Alright. I did not only go after you after Axelrod was getting votes, I went after you because I was suspicious

throughout the game

, and in my eyes, more than Axelrod. There are earlier posts to support that. However, I'd also like to point out that My departure was before your vigilante claim, so had I heard it before, I surely would have unvoted. Also, Axelrod's behavior as he was getting votes piled on would have switched my vote as well. I just don't want you guys to think that I just sat there, knowingly having my vote on a claimed vig, while Axelrod was babbling scummily and trying to get out of getting lynched.

From my last post on, I was out of town.

Its just that at the point of my departure, CA seemed like a better lynch than Axelrod, hence my vote at that point.

Now. Meme has essentially claimed? I must be blind.

And thirdly, confirmed good guys?
Who does that include?


PS: I would go after The Shadow, but we really need to have substance to go about with it, not just lurking.

I'd like to point out that though his defence isn't all that great, The Shadow voted CA before the Commodore claimed. Now, whether the reason why he did not switch his vote was some sort of absence, or just scum lurking, I do not know. I just think we should be careful of who we lynch, seeing as we don't have many chances left.(Do we?)

[PeaceBringer]

actually upon further reflection,

vote TSS

personally haven't seen him take this tact before and it has struck me as 'trying' to hard. Plus he is spinning crapola toward me. It is as good a vote as anything but something hasn't seemed right to me regarding TSS.

[Dragon Phoenix]

Vote count, seven to kick one out:

The Shadow 2 (LML, TSS)
TSS 2 (The shadow, Peacebringer)

Not voting: 8

[Fuldu]

I'd like to at least hear from Leonidas before we go too much further today. It doesn't seem like a kill was blocked last night, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have any useful input to provide.

[MeMe]

Along with Leo: Nanook & Someone have yet to check in today.

I could easily vote Shadow...but I agree that waiting for everyone's input is wise. Especially the deeper into a game we get.

[Leonidas]

I'm here. Waiting for the scums to post a little more.

[NanookTheWolf]

actually upon further reflection,

vote TSS

personally haven't seen him take this tact before and it has struck me as 'trying' to hard. Plus he is spinning crapola toward me. It is as good a vote as anything but something hasn't seemed right to me regarding TSS.

What 'crapola' is he spinning AT you .. He only fos'd you along with two others saying that 2 out of the 3 of you could possibly mafia. You seem to be a bit defensive about that. Also, your role as far as I am concerned is not at all confirmed as being town like .. I mean you've made one view in this game, and you can't seem to even be able to interpret it along with the rest of us. I'm not saying that you made up the role, but I'm also not saying that you didn't either.

I have to look back at a few of my games, but honestly this does seem to be the kind of thing that TSS does, but I can't recall if he does it regularly, more so if town/mafia. I'll have to get back to on that one, but I have seen him 'take this tact' before.

On Shadow being lurker like, this is true that he is know to lurk, but not this much. Also, that BS about "Sorta a fondness of dark places and silence" was not needed as part of your defense, even if it is trying to make light of a situation. As for point B, I tend not to follow TSS's records of voting patterns (or anyone's really) because no matter how detailed they are, I can't vote someone because of how they vote. Unless of course they never vote for a scum throughout then entire game, then it begins to become a bit suspicious. Since we've only caught one in this game, there isn't much to say about that.

Point C, what other defense could I expect .. the old lynching town is bad argument .. Point D I'd have to actually sit down and read over the thread some more, but I'm sure your info is valid and wouldn't mind hearing a response from TSS on that point.

This is why you are voting for TSS ..

it's because he was accusing me that I was checking that up

Don't quite get it .. Can you explain the checking that up part?

I too would like to hear from Leo and although he may have not have gotten any sort of info last night, I wouldn't mind getting some input from the man, along with someone.

I apologize for not posting sooner, but I've been reading while you guys have been posting, and couldn't at the time think of anything to write.

[the silent speaker]

For all your posting, TSS, I saw nothing until Axelrod was basically dead where you actually considered him scum. Why is that?

Because until I got back from my trip (by which time Axelrod had already bungled his claim), I didn't consider Axelrod scum.

If you'll recall, I had been working from the premise that there had been no scum on olio's bandwagon day 1, a premise now known to be false. Had it been true (as I knew or suspected it to be true about pretty much everybody besides Axelrod independently) naturally my main focus would belong elsewhere. I did not, in fact, completely ignore the part of the game swirling around Axelrod before that, but my contribution along those lines was limited to small notes in larger posts. This, for example, from post 469:

Axelrod's long post has me unimpressed: for one thing, most of his points from the early going are things LML has already been called on and IMO acquitted himself.

[The Shadow]

The only scum TSS voted for that I didn't was Axelrod (Don't know if he voted for Mr. Stoofer and at any rate, Stoofer doesn't count because no one knew he was a SK) and he was rather late on the bandwagon.

I wasn't here so I couldn't vote for Axelrod.

Point C was a joke.

On my quote there...either you seriously misquoted me or I wrote that sentence terribly...And I have a sick feeling it's B.

But to elaborate on that, TSS was voting me and I was afraid a bandwagon was going to start on me (which, it appears could easily sprout unless I'm incredibly lucky). Obviously it's not easy to defend lurking which I tend to do more often then not.

I know it's a bad argument but I usually talk a little more when I'm scum because I'm afraid of being lynched

To continue: I needed a new goat for the town to go after so I decided to find someone. Doesn't sound too good as a defense, but that's the way it goes. The only person who has posted less then me (and I'm not sure he has) is Leonidas. He seemed fairly safe, however. I turned to TSS because he was voting me (I think for the second time) and checked through his previous posts. I found he had not voted Axelrod till fairly late and had completely ignored the initial action against Axelrod. I couldn't find any instances of his being particularly helpful so I brought up those facts to try to save myself.

Sure, he's more productive then me, but from my point of view he's got a better chance of being scum.

At any rate, that's my defense. If you don't like it, well....I guess I get lynched.

[NanookTheWolf]

I know it's not generally wise to reflect suspicion on a guy voting you...but, well, it's because he was accusing me that I was checking that up. Vote: The Silent Speaker because at this point in time he's top of my most-likely-to-be-scum list.

This be the entire sentence of when you voted TSS, not that it really sounds any different .. and if this doesn't sound right to you look at post 549.

I just want some clarity as to why you are voting him .. Cause by just reading your post up above, you are voting him because he was voting you and you were a bandwagon was going to start on yourself ... ?

[Commodore Amazing]

I found he had not voted Axelrod till fairly late and had completely ignored the initial action against Axelrod.

This seems like a good reason to vote for tss. the silent speaker has been hiding behind his theories this whole game; several people seem to buy them as a defense for him not being scum. I don't. They seem to work pretty badly: they have implicated me very strongly, they got him to be suspicious of PBuG and olio on day one, and they never really pointed at Axelrod. The only two people he has put pressure on that I don't feel are safe are The Shadow and EYNH/mikehart. Otherwise, it has been Fuldu, me, Leonidas, Vesuvan, SaberKitty, and Stoofer (another good person for scum to go after). I'd also like to know why he's so sure LoudmouthLee isn't scum. It's defense time, the silent speaker.

vote: the silent speaker

@Fuldu: Why do you think that mith would be scum with Antrax?

[Fuldu]

@ Leo (I think...if I'm right, he'll know what I mean)

Alright, I've tried to do this subtly and I'm not getting anywhere with it, so I'm just going to out with it and if it turns out to have been a mistake, well, I'm sorry.

MeMe knows better than to make comments like the one quoted above. With all the speculation that Leonidas is the roleblocker, she's basically just starting the morning by coyly announcing that she was blocked during the night, a statement that does no one any good. It isn't quite as bad as having "essentially claimed" as somebody put it, but it wasn't necessary and doesn't help anyone.

I can only think of one reason that MeMe might have made that comment, if her scum buddy is in a position to potentially have to fake a particular role claim (roleblocker) and she received dawn information (having been roleblocked) that she wanted to share with him. A barely disguised admission of having been blocked, dressed up as banter, passes along the information "if push comes to shove, I wanted to let you know that I was blocked last night so you don't have to make a guess."

Leonidas isn't the roleblocker, I am. His evasive, non-comittal comments when asked about his night activities aren't explicitly scummy, but neither are they totally above board. His not having been targeted last night bothers me a lot more. A nearly-universally believed power role was passed over as a target in favor of Vesuvan. That strikes me as an odd choice on the part of the scum. Unless the player in question was one of their own.

I can't decide which of the two I'm more confident is scum. On balance, I find MeMe more tied to Axelrod (as I mentioned yesterday), but I find Leonidas' not having been targeted last night to be more suspicious.

All in all, I'll

vote: Leonidas

, but I'd like to hear from both (with maybe a little bit more content this time, Leo) and dependent on what they have to say I'd be happy to lynch either.

[Commodore Amazing]

unvote: the silent speaker

For now, I trust Fuldu. Here's some evidence against MeMe and Leo, who I think might have been playing me.

The first quick one is that Leonidas might not have realized that Stoofer couldn't be seen as scum, and wanted to act like he was cop, and by sacrificing Axelrod, he and MeMe were gaining the trust of the town.

The second one is that MeMe is probably mith. rolandofthewhite voted for MeMe somewhere back there and said, "She knows why." MeMe said, "No you don't." Shortly after, rolandofthewhite brought up that whole thing about "Is 'mith' scum?" Meme said, "No, probably not." I said, "No, probably not," since I was thinking mith wouldn't be scum, just like Cadmium isn't scum. Fuldu seems to think this is wrong. I would like to know Fuldu thinks this is wrong.

Third, I don't know why I wasn't killed or Leo wasn't killed last night. I think this might be because Leo is scum, and I was clearly Leo's lackey. Not anymore. I want to hear Leo explain himself.

@Fuldu - you've claimed. Who did you roleblock each day?

I'm going to go back and find the posts where rolando hints that MeMe is mith.

[Commodore Amazing]

Double post!

Here's some summary-
Day 2, posts 214-217

rolandofthewhite: I have my reasons for voting MeMe. Or at least I think I do.
MeMe: You don’t.
Rolandofthewhite: Are you so sure?
MeMe: Quite. I get it, though.

Day 2, starting at post 278 (same day, a week real time later)

rolandofthewhite: Would you consider the role name of "mith" to be scum?
LoudmouthLee: No
Fuldu: You’re scummy, rolandofthewhite.
MeMe: No, not scum.
rolandofthewhite: All right, I’ll drop it.
Commodore Amazing: No, not scum. Probably power townie.
Vesuvan: Maybe, maybe not. Almost certainly powerful.
Axelrod: Could be scum. Could be power role. Keep quiet, rolandofthewhite.

MeMe is probably mith, and it's looking more like Meme is scum. It took me a while to figure this out. It looks like Fuldu figured this out too. I would guess that if Fuldu was scum, he would have offed MeMe at night.

Why are so many power roles alive? Our doctor is dead.

[MeMe]

Well crap, Fuldu. I was sloppy and I was hoping that my stupid mistake wouldn't be caught out.

Explanation: look at my two posts -- one right after the other. What happened was I posted before reading my PMs and said that I was interested in what Leo had to share. Once I read my PMs, I saw that I'd been blocked and felt as though my first post would look really weird to Leo since why would I be asking him to share information from the prior night when I knew the information he had since I was the one he blocked (or so I thought)?

As you said, I'm smart enough not to say it for no reason -- but there was a reason and it was that my

first

post was the mistake, not my second. Anyway. Dumb. But that's all there is too it.

One thing I've been wondering and I've no reason not to ask now...

CA

: As Nox said, I didn't claim. What role did you

think

I was claiming?

Another question...

Leo

: Your Stoofer "catch" wasn't because you're a cop and, unless the game has two blockers (um....) you're not one of them either. So...what's with the confidence and "acceptance by silence" of CA's giving you the role of blocker?

I'm interested in what is up with Leonidas...and why CA is so eager to leap on me (who he's outing as mith and, according to prior comments he believes to be a pro-town power role) and turn his back on Leo (who he was worshipping yesterday). I'm wondering if there's some Shadow protection going on in his behavior today -- he joined the opposing bandwagon and now seems more than willing to out me and hop on the possibility of suspicion in my direction without waiting for my explanation.

[Fuldu]

Stylistically, mith as scum with Antrax makes sense to me. I'd like to say that scum in this game are the old guard of admins, but I don't actually know that Antrax was ever an admin. He does have old posts on this (admittedly post-crash) board about talking with Hy (our SK) about implementing certain modifications on the server, which is the sort of discussion that I basically associate with jeep (who might well make a good GF under this scenario, but who knows).

More concretely, there's this, as CA paraphrased the earlier mith discussion:

Axelrod: Could be scum. Could be power role. Keep quiet, rolandofthewhite.

If mith weren't mafia, Axelrod would have had every reason to tolerate speculation on what the role was and to hope that roland would blurt out the player's identity. Axelrod didn't do this, which seems noteworthy to me.

I don't feel strongly that mith is scum, but I'd definitely want to keep an eye on anyone who claimed it.

[MeMe]

The obvious reason for Axelrod to tell roland to keep quiet is that Loudmouth, CA, and I had already said we thought mith would be town and Vesuvan had said that whatever mith is, he's sure to be powerful and that roland shouldn't share any information about him.

Basically, if Axel pressed for information on mith's identity when four others had shared opinions that mith's either town or shouldn't be exposed at the moment, he'd look like a digger. Best for scum to agree rather than to try to extract information that others are saying is best left alone.

[the silent speaker]

But to elaborate on that, TSS was voting me and I was afraid a bandwagon was going to start on me (which, it appears could easily sprout unless I'm incredibly lucky). Obviously it's not easy to defend lurking which I tend to do more often then not.

So, out of fear of a bandwagon forming on you, you went after not whoever you find scummiest, but the target likeliest to deflect attention from you?

The only scum TSS voted for that I didn't was Axelrod

As opposed to all the other multitudes of scum that have been killed in this game...

Nice bit of subtle deflection that nobody seems to have noticed -- unfortunately for you, I was waiting to see if you'd try it.

I never claimed that my vote for Axelrod cleared me, and my reasons today for voting you never once cited your lurking.

Good job trying to make your case against me about those two arguments, but consider yourself called on it.

Commodore:

The only two people he has put pressure on that I don't feel are safe are The Shadow and EYNH/mikehart. Otherwise, it has been Fuldu, me, Leonidas, Vesuvan, SaberKitty, and Stoofer (another good person for scum to go after).

If I get two scum, doesn't that suggest I should be forgiven for the one I didn't get? As regards the 'otherwise' people, Stoofer was a good person for *anyone* to go after, town or scum; Leonidas you're now suggesting is scummy, so why complain that I entertained the idea of putting pressure on him? And I did back off of you a couple of times, and eventually Fuldu too.

Fuldu: I'm guessing you did block MeMe, else you would have already said you didn't, and be voting her over Leo. Since the mafia's kill went through anyway, doesn't it follow that MeMe is not one?

[Fuldu]

Honestly, I've never once played in a game where the roleblocker could block any member of the mafia and their kill would be blocked. Whereas every time I've been scum and there has been a roleblocker in the game, the scum were required to select

which

team member was going to perform the kill. I certainly would agree that this means that MeMe didn't kill Vesuvan last night, but that doesn't let her off the hook.

[Leonidas]

Interesting.

So I am adamant about lynching two scums, one SK and one mafia, and now I am getting voted for. Nice.

The town is free to speculate as much as it will on my role. I disclose info only if it's in its interest.

[The Shadow]

So, out of fear of a bandwagon forming on you, you went after not whoever you find scummiest, but the target likeliest to deflect attention from you?

That's a harsh way of putting it....But that's about right.

Voting patterns aren't an exact science and in this case it is wrong. At least as far as my voting is concerned. Plus I don't really have an excuse for voting similar to Axelrod. Rather unexplainable. More of an accident then anything else.

[Leonidas]

Hmm.

vote: Mikehart

for now.

[Fuldu]

I'd hardly use the word 'adamant' to describe your attitude toward the lynches, Leonidas. In particular, I'd recommend people look at the post in which Leo votes for Axelrod and the ones in which I argue in favor of his lynch and decide which of the two of us was pushing harder for it.

As for whether it's "in [the town's] interest" to have been so non-committal about your role, this right here that I'm doing is (if I'm wrong) why. Didn't it occur to you that the actual roleblocker was going to find the whole thing suspicious? I gave you several opportunities to even just hint that everybody was in the wrong, and your having passed them over is a concern to me. Surely you must have realized that standing in for another role was going to be a double-edged sword.

[Someone]

Checking in, haven't read, post tonight or tomorrow night.

[NanookTheWolf]

Vote: Leonidas

.. A lot of what TSS has said in his posts now makes a hell of a lot more sense.