Mini 957 - Everyone's a Hero Mafia - Game Over

[pman5595]

because of the way you are arguing back and forth. To restate my opinion, activity is not a town tell, non-activity is not a scum tell, but trying to avoid the spotlight is a scum tell.

[iLord]

Vote Count the First

Snow_Bunny (3): Riceballtail, Thor665, Doombunny9,
Doombunny9 (1): McGriddle
Thor665 (2): TheButtonmen, Snow_Bunny

With twelve alive, it's seven to lynch.

[Zhero]

Vote: Snow_Bunny for self voting and because I don't really have anyone better to vote.

This is an easy vote, trying to blend in without actually saying anything. Why is self-voting scummy?

Vote: Doombunny9

Getting a town read from both Thor and Button. It seems as if scum would not want to argue, but try to stay under the radar without lurking. Yay for quick end to RVS. Carry on.

Do you agree with both of their stances?

[McGriddle]

McGriddle- I like your random vote after the RVS is more or less over.

Lol I don't like the idea of self-voting, unless you are scum, there is no reason for it. I don't care too much for your bunnys wagon because it is RVS

Erm... What? Isn't your vote on me RVS? If not, can you give me a reason for it?

RVS isn't over. It had only been like 4 posts lol.

Anyways, my vote on you IS an RV. No, I cannot, but you do seem rather defensive about it so I will leave it on and transfer it to a non RV.

[semioldguy]

... Up to and including trying to end RVS this early...

If you think trying to end the RVS is scummy, what do you think about the implications of a player self-voting and it's tendency to almost immediately end RVS? Why bring ending the RVS up as a point against one player but not mention it for the other?

[MonkeyMan576]

Vote: Doombunny

I don't think self voting is scummy but trying to act like it is is scummy.

[Thor665]

because of the way you are arguing back and forth. To restate my opinion, activity is not a town tell, non-activity is not a scum tell, but trying to avoid the spotlight is a scum tell.

Is trying to not avoid the spotlight a town tell though?

I don't think self voting is scummy but trying to act like it is is scummy.

I also cited the self-vote as a reason to solidify my vote - what is it about the way Doombunny did it that makes you vote him, and what is it about the way I did it that doesn't even deserve mention?

[Snow_Bunny]

@Thor: Why do you find selfvoting, specially as a rv, scummy?

[esuriospiritus]

/glances at playerlist

Hmm. I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

and yes, I went out of my way to use a semi-colon twice.

Based on this alone, I think I'll like you.

Thor, I humbly request you change your avatar to this:



(Don't mind me if you don't get this. I'm probing for fellow Stargate fans.)

</establishing nerd cred>

And now that I've got some requisite early game silliness out of the way, I hereby assign you all some required reading regarding the RVS (extra credit if you read through at least post 8): here, be enlightened.

tl;dr, it's never too early to end the RVS... unless you're scum. It's never too early to stop giving scum the excuse of "yeah, I did something scummy, but it was during the RVS so I can't be held accountable for it."

Now, on to actually talking about what has happened so far in the game: while S_B's self-vote is of course bad play, it seems to be about on par with her behaviour as town in the one game I have played with her. (I cannot elaborate much more than this, lolongoings). Of course, some people rely on meta more than others, but I enjoy using it and am of the belief that S_B tends to react radically to even the lightest accusation and, while I reiterate that it is not good play and she should revise this aspect of her meta, in her case this is not to be considered a scumtell because she has a history of doing such things as town.

However, post 17 is way scummier than her self-vote imo, so she gets a vote from me anyway.

Vote: S_B

I do not understand the people saying that ending RVS early is scummy. I'm guessing they're butthurt that they didn't get their chance to fakeclaim NK-immune death miller vig cop princess watcher bomb doctor. Or, more likely, they're butthurt 'cause they're scum.

I'd like to bring up something nobody has pointed out yet:

[03] Whenever a Villain is lynched, each Villain voting him loses 1 Villain Point and each Hero voting him gains 1 Hero Point.

[04] Whenever a Hero is lynched, each Villain voting him gains 1 Villain Point and each Hero voting him loses 1 Hero Point.

Based on this I am guessing there is going to be a lot less bussing than usual. Heroes, of course, have the advantage of knowing if they are voting a hero or a villain, and I am guessing at least some of them will not find it prudent to lose a point just so they can gain some town credo. This isn't really relevant now, but may be useful in later days when we have some dead scum and do some bandwagon analysis.

[MonkeyMan576]

because of the way you are arguing back and forth. To restate my opinion, activity is not a town tell, non-activity is not a scum tell, but trying to avoid the spotlight is a scum tell.

Is trying to not avoid the spotlight a town tell though?

I don't think self voting is scummy but trying to act like it is is scummy.

I also cited the self-vote as a reason to solidify my vote - what is it about the way Doombunny did it that makes you vote him, and what is it about the way I did it that doesn't even deserve mention?

You had a more lengthy reasoning for your stance. The player I voted on seemed more abrasive.

[Thor665]

TL:DR

First I assault Snow_Bunny to answer her question and point out how she didn't answer mine. I believe weak cases are normal and needed in RVS due to lack of current information and that she is still the scummiest player here.
Second, I ask MonkeyMan to explain the abrasiveness and why it was scummy.
Third I nerd out with esuriospiritus, request that a scumtell is actually said out loud, and discuss the game mechanics a bit

===============================================

@Thor: Why do you find selfvoting, specially as a rv, scummy?

During the RVS stage the level of what I consider a scumtell is shifted. Basically - because there is so little information to go on even a minor scumtell becomes worthy of being a full borne case. Therefore, even a minor scummy thing becomes the qualifier for the whole case, and indeed, it is obligated to be so because it's impossible to build a longer case.

As to specifically why I'm voting you for this, please consider this question; What is the pro town advantage of self-voting? If you cannot answer that question then there is no reason for town to self vote ergo you are not town (because all town automatically play a perfect game, naturally).

You also dodged/missed all my questions to you from page 1, I'll restate the single question that all of the little questions I asked really are probing at; please explain to me why it is scummy to try to end the RVS quickly.

If you cannot do this then that also shows that your follow up vote on me is more akin to OMGUS then it is to actually scumhunting and it also shows that my vote on you is even more justified.

You had a more lengthy reasoning for your stance. The player I voted on seemed more abrasive.

Fair enough. Why do you think his abrasiveness was scummy?

Hmm. I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

I don't get the Stargate reference but I have you here, if it makes you feel better.

Also, thank you for having read that article. This is now my second game (both ongoing) where I've been using some of this mindset and I find it ends the RVS very quickly. I'm not sure if it's helping me catch scum yet, but I suppose that will take longer to assess.

However, post 17 is way scummier than her self-vote imo, so she gets a vote from me anyway.

Would you like to say why you find it scummy? It cannot just be her anti-ending the RVS stance since multiple posters have taken that thus far, so something else is bugging you here, what is it?

Based on this I am guessing there is going to be a lot less bussing than usual.

Except, of course, there are the Public Deeds which allow both Heroes and Villains to gain Hero and Villain points each night. I'm not saying you're wrong about the bussing thought, but this is certainly a modifier to that belief.

[MonkeyMan576]

TL:DR

First I assault Snow_Bunny to answer her question and point out how she didn't answer mine. I believe weak cases are normal and needed in RVS due to lack of current information and that she is still the scummiest player here.
Second, I ask MonkeyMan to explain the abrasiveness and why it was scummy.
Third I nerd out with esuriospiritus, request that a scumtell is actually said out loud, and discuss the game mechanics a bit

===============================================

@Thor: Why do you find selfvoting, specially as a rv, scummy?

During the RVS stage the level of what I consider a scumtell is shifted. Basically - because there is so little information to go on even a minor scumtell becomes worthy of being a full borne case. Therefore, even a minor scummy thing becomes the qualifier for the whole case, and indeed, it is obligated to be so because it's impossible to build a longer case.

As to specifically why I'm voting you for this, please consider this question; What is the pro town advantage of self-voting? If you cannot answer that question then there is no reason for town to self vote ergo you are not town (because all town automatically play a perfect game, naturally).

You also dodged/missed all my questions to you from page 1, I'll restate the single question that all of the little questions I asked really are probing at; please explain to me why it is scummy to try to end the RVS quickly.

If you cannot do this then that also shows that your follow up vote on me is more akin to OMGUS then it is to actually scumhunting and it also shows that my vote on you is even more justified.

You had a more lengthy reasoning for your stance. The player I voted on seemed more abrasive.

Fair enough. Why do you think his abrasiveness was scummy?

Hmm. I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

I don't get the Stargate reference but I have you here, if it makes you feel better.

Also, thank you for having read that article. This is now my second game (both ongoing) where I've been using some of this mindset and I find it ends the RVS very quickly. I'm not sure if it's helping me catch scum yet, but I suppose that will take longer to assess.

However, post 17 is way scummier than her self-vote imo, so she gets a vote from me anyway.

Would you like to say why you find it scummy? It cannot just be her anti-ending the RVS stance since multiple posters have taken that thus far, so something else is bugging you here, what is it?

Based on this I am guessing there is going to be a lot less bussing than usual.

Except, of course, there are the Public Deeds which allow both Heroes and Villains to gain Hero and Villain points each night. I'm not saying you're wrong about the bussing thought, but this is certainly a modifier to that belief.

Abrasiveness without reasoning seems like an unwillingness to want to work with the town and having a go-out-on-your-own attitude, which is anti-town.

[pman5595]

Getting a town read from both Thor and Button. It seems as if scum would not want to argue, but try to stay under the radar without lurking. Yay for quick end to RVS. Carry on.

Do you agree with both of their stances?

In order to get anywhere, the town needs to be past the RVS. It is needed to start discussions and scumhunting, but it in of itself has no use. Thus, the quicker it is over, while still being functional, the better.

because of the way you are arguing back and forth. To restate my opinion, activity is not a town tell, non-activity is not a scum tell, but trying to avoid the spotlight is a scum tell.

Is trying to not avoid the spotlight a town tell though?

No. Basically nothing is a town-tell, exceptions being confirming through mass-claiming, investigations from a sanity-guaranteed cop, and the like. Scum are trying to act like town, making most "town-tells" useless.

[Thor665]

Basically nothing is a town-tell...Scum are trying to act like town, making most "town-tells" useless.

Getting a town read from both Thor and Button.

Obvious contradiction is obvious.

[Timeater]

Greetings an salutations, friends.++!!

Me com from time itself.

since i from future, i say things

!! HAPPY FACE!

[Doombunny9]

This is an easy vote, trying to blend in without actually saying anything. Why is self-voting scummy?
Vote: Doombunny9

It contributes nothing to the town and is pointless unless you are scum (because it lets you appear like your still doing stuff while giving no info). It is less scummy in the RVS though.

RVS isn't over. It had only been like 4 posts lol.

Really? Because I don't really see any random votes (other then yours). RVS has no required length.

Anyways, my vote on you IS an RV. No, I cannot, but you do seem rather defensive about it so I will leave it on and transfer it to a non RV.

You're leaving it because I'm defending myself? lolwut?

Sorry for the quicky post but I'm in a hurry. Probably post more later today.

[Thor665]

Greetings an salutations, friends.++!!

Me com from time itself.

I examined this post...twice (I even wore glasses, which makes me smarter when reading) there was no scumhunting within this post. Please try again.

We have almost two pages now and they are not fluff pages, they are viable pages with real opinions being bandied about and there is no reason you could not have made a contribution in your first post.

@McGriddle - what is your read on the obvious active lurking of Timeater, why do you think he's avoiding adding to the conversation?

[pman5595]

Basically nothing is a town-tell...Scum are trying to act like town, making most "town-tells" useless.

Getting a town read from both Thor and Button.

Obvious contradiction is obvious.

town-read=mostly gut
town-tell=specific thing

not contradicting.

[Timeater]

Hello!

Well what an interesting two pages!

I think Thor is to be commended for his attempt to bring us out of the RVS as soon as possible. I'm pretty blase about the RVS - I dont really have a preference on how long it should or shouldn't last...but I can see the value of coming out of it quickly.

Something I dont like is people voting for Thor because of his name when we are so obviously outside the RVS. RVS ended around post #11. Enter high-pitched hero voice: " Thor is being active and accusatory, AND he has a heroic name, muahahah, a perfect cover to get my vote out of the way early without attaching much importance to it while keeping a low profile, those villains will suspect nothing!"

As for my above post I simply wanted to post something entirely random and silly just to gauge responses. Thats how I roll, thats my playstyle. I like to be experimental, I like to throw curveballs. Doombunny had no response, which was interesting, but he might not have seen the post. Pman cant claim to have had that excuse though, which makes me wonder. Maybe you just dont care, Pman? Thor posted something along the lines I was expecting him to post. I was going to let more people comment on the post before I replied, but I feel I owe it to Thor (because of his level of commitment to the game so far) to come clean early before any confusion or damage is incurred.

I dont assign townie points, only scum points. Its much cleaner for me.

I'm not liking TheButtonmen for reasons I mentioned above. I dont like the way he (and others) vote for thor based on the pseudo-reason of his name being that of a hero. It just rubs me the wrong way.

I dont like MonkeyMan's statement of "I don't think self voting is scummy but trying to act like it is is scummy." - ...what? Why not? Please elaborate Mister Monkey. Monkey then proceeds to be the all-knowing sage, proclaiming that Thor's opinions are invalid because he' is abrasive, something I dont like at all.

esuriospirits. I like everything she said. Lets play dressup. I'll be Teal'c you can be Carter. Then we can have a forbidden sexual liason in the briefing room. My symbiote will be gentle. I will get around to reading that RVS post by TSQ was great.

Anyway, initial analysis aside, I think the obvious vote is S-Bunny. I'm not agreeing with semioldguy's martyr argument (if that is what you are saying - that S-Bunny self voted to intentionally bring the game out of RVS, clarification might be nice)

Post #17 is just too much of a tell for me. The bunny must perish.

Vote: Snow_Bunny

[Timeater]

edit: I will get around to reading that RVS post by TSQ, seems great*

[Doombunny9]

Doombunny had no response, which was interesting, but he might not have seen the post.

I saw the post and thought it was a "Hello everyone, I'm here so don't think I'm dead. Going to reread and post later" post. I've seen people that post that stuff when they're fairly late in the game or been gone/VLA for a while.

Anyway, here are my beginning of the day reads-

Thor=town, trying to further discussion and killing those retarded "End RVS early is baaaaaad etc." Comments
Snow=Scum, reasons already stated
McGriddle= I don't know what the heck he's doing. RVing out of the RVS saying it's still going on... WTF?
Everyone else=Too early in the game to tell.

Snow is now at L-2 btw.

[TheButtonmen]

It would appear a lot of people here don’t understand what RVS is; peoples actions in RVS aren’t random town still acts in what the think is town best, where as scum have a harder time doing so because they have to by their nature behave differently then town and there no established baseline of how town is acting yet. Thus later on going back and looking at RVS can help you spot outliers. What Thor did was both unhelpful to town and also mildly scummy as it put him in the potion to judge what’s townish and what’s not, this is compounded by the fact that Thor continues to try to lead town and establish what’s good play and what isn’t.

@The Article:

I like Glorks take on it; Vi also makes some good points.

@Timeater:

You don’t like my vote because I’m voting him for his name lulwhut?

@SemioldGuy:

Bunny didn’t tell town how to react to her self vote; she perpetuated a part of the game I find useful; she kept RVS going in a manner that got reactions from everyone thus making people start talking while not outlining how they should be talking.

[Thor665]

TL:DR - I find it interesting that Buttonmen thinks that if RVS can logically contain silly votes why he feels my serious votes are scummy. If a silly vote (name as scumtell) isn't scummy then why is any action scummy (including the "harsh" crime of taking things seriously)?

============================================

What Thor did was both unhelpful to town and also mildly scummy as it put him in the potion to judge what’s townish and what’s not

Every single player in this game has that ability - that's why we have votes and explain our reads on tells. How did I establish myself as the only person capable of knowing scumtell from towntell?

this is compounded by the fact that Thor continues to try to lead town and establish what’s good play and what isn’t.

I will note this is coming from someone who is voting me because I tried to end RVS too quickly. Could you clarify the differences?

Also, I responded to all your accusations point by point on the bottom of page one - why no commentary on that?

@The Article:

I like Glorks take on it; Vi also makes some good points.

So you dislike my take on it because... Here's a goal, how about you quote to me what Glork said that shows him disagreeing with what I have done. Clearly one of us is misunderstanding his standpoint. Here's one from me;

Shea hit the nail squarely on the head when he said "make everyone accountable" and "ask questions." Suppose I bandwagon a player. Ask me why I did so, and ask two or three other people what they think about my vote, and about the person I bandwagoned. This is the type of behavior which not only makes the RVS useful to the town, but also leads us out of it in a natural and productive way.

@Timeater:

You don’t like my vote because I’m voting him for his name lulwhut?

Why do you feel my name is a functional scumtell that should be taken seriously? Also, any answer you have to this, why does it not then apply to Timeater finding your vote scummy? If you find a name scummy clearly he can find you voting for a name scummy - yes?

@SemioldGuy:

Bunny didn’t tell town how to react to her self vote; she perpetuated a part of the game I find useful; she kept RVS going in a manner that got reactions from everyone thus making people start talking while not outlining how they should be talking.

And now you have Semioldguy's reaction to the RVS stage action of Bunny. Shouldn't this make you happy?

Would you be happier with my actions if I suddenly said "LOL I've just been kidding, hah, we're still in RVS!1!"

Would this then make my actions more or less worthy land why is this?

[Snow_Bunny]

@Thor: Why do you find selfvoting, specially as a rv, scummy?

During the RVS stage the level of what I consider a scumtell is shifted. Basically - because there is so little information to go on even a minor scumtell becomes worthy of being a full borne case. Therefore, even a minor scummy thing becomes the qualifier for the whole case, and indeed, it is obligated to be so because it's impossible to build a longer case.

Well, I think quite different to you. Town should have no fear of acting a bit silly during RVS, but scum does. Why? Spotlight so early on is never a good thing for scum. In fact, in my experience I've seen town do this more than scum. I really see scum doing this, to be honest. This falls into wifom, obviously, but it's my opinion, and thus my actions, regarding this matter.

As to specifically why I'm voting you for this, please consider this question; What is the pro town advantage of self-voting? If you cannot answer that question then there is no reason for town to self vote ergo you are not town (because all town automatically play a perfect game, naturally).

During serious game, there's no advantage whatsoever. In fact, I hunt players who selfvote themselves. However, in the RVS, I really don't care much. It's like attacking someone who claims jester cop vig bulletproof. That's just a joke. No point in paying a second thought.

You also dodged/missed all my questions to you from page 1, I'll restate the single question that all of the little questions I asked really are probing at; please explain to me why it is scummy to try to end the RVS quickly.

RVS is like the source for N0 info for town. If you end it really quickly, you'll have, in all chances, nothing more than useless pieces of info to start with. In fact, thanks to you town knows almost nothing on most players. Yes, you may find me scummy, but, what about the others? What if you quicklynch me and you realize you only wasted a day and a townie for that? Scum would want to end the RVS quickly. After all, they already have info, and they would want to prevent town for getting more. I really dislike and find scummy players who act early as town and try to get the rvs over, among other things, because I find that a scum move.

If you cannot do this then that also shows that your follow up vote on me is more akin to OMGUS then it is to actually scumhunting and it also shows that my vote on you is even more justified.

Nop, it's not omgus. As explained before, your "so-protown intentions" are nothing but a common disguise for scum to blend as town.

[McGriddle]

This is an easy vote, trying to blend in without actually saying anything. Why is self-voting scummy?
Vote: Doombunny9

It contributes nothing to the town and is pointless unless you are scum (because it lets you appear like your still doing stuff while giving no info). It is less scummy in the RVS though.

RVS isn't over. It had only been like 4 posts lol.

Really? Because I don't really see any random votes (other then yours). RVS has no required length.

Anyways, my vote on you IS an RV. No, I cannot, but you do seem rather defensive about it so I will leave it on and transfer it to a non RV.

You're leaving it because I'm defending myself? lolwut?

Sorry for the quicky post but I'm in a hurry. Probably post more later today.

Wrong, I am voting you because you are OVER defensive, You are putting words in my mouth now and trying to make it seem like I don't know what I am talking about. Misleading town, another tic to add onto my LoS on you.

@ Thor: Not much as he just got here.