Newbie 937 ~ Mafia Lite [Game Over]

[Red Star]

The Doc Diaries

I write this at 9:42am GMT time, 27th of April.

Originally my plan had been to lie low, trying to seem as little of a threat to the scum as possible, by appearing to be slightly scummy. Hopefully, I would be able to survive the night, with the mafia thinking that killing me would be a waste of a NK, because town would lynch me Day 2. My goal was to try and get involved as little as possible and be an observer as much as possible, to let things unfold and take a back seat. Then in Day 2, claim doctor, do stuff and win. I didn't really think that part through.

However, I naturally fucked up in my brilliant plan, specifically at 235-261. I became too involved in the razorback incident, and made myself seem far too scummy. Now, getting lynched on Day 1 would be a huge hit to town (kinda), and I was at a loss. Then I realised that if I claimed, some idiot might counterclaim and give town an easy target for tomorrow. After all, I consider a doc-for-scum trade an excellent deal. However, if no-one counterclaimed, my plan was to publically declare that I am protecting X and that they are guaranteed to survive the night. Scum, seeing this, would naturally not bother trying to NK X, and instead try to kill someone else. However, I wouldn't be protecting X, in the hope scum believes this, and in fact defending another person. Naturally, this is WIFOM, and really likely to fail miserably. Time will tell.

Crap, I just realised, what if the scum have a roleblocker?! They'd remove my ability to protect people, which means that they'd kill someone else anyway, and leave me alive for me to be brutally lynched by the town Day 2, paving the way for a scum victory. This is really bad... How the hell can I fix this mess I made? Hopefully, in such a situation, the cop will still have been able to make a search. If they find scum, brilliant! If they do not, well, town is likely to gang up on me, and lynch me, leaving town 6-2 against scum. If the cop investigated me, then I'd be in the clear, and scumhunting could commence in earnest. If someone claims to have investigated me and returned a guilty result, then I know that person is scum, and I will begin to vote.

Gah! So many situations, so many possibilities. Why was I such an idiot?! Ok, best thing to do, claim to protect X. Scum will not attack X, giving him 'protection', and they will most likely attack the most the person doing the most scumhunting. Then, I will defend myself, meaning scum doesn't get a NK. However, if they roleblock me, kill X, and frame me, then I will need to hope that there is a cop and that they made an investigation. If they get a guilty result on me, lynch them. If they get a guilty result on someone else, lynch that person. If they get an innocent result on me, start scumhunting. There will be plenty of time, so we should be very, very careful.

I now write this at 10:02am GMT time, 27th of April.

Originally, I had planned to defend Exilon, as he was composing the most content-filled posts, but then I noticed something. Exilon and skerterg were congratulating each other, with both saying that the other had a high chance of being town. For now, I'm inclined to believe in a two-scum tag team taking control of the town (yay for alliteration!) and trying to steer it, and doing a really good job of it. So no, I'm not protecting either of them. In fact, I'm personally inclined to protect kelikar, and I will in fact post so in the thread right now, 10:06am GMT, 27th April. If I die tonight due to being roleblocked, I hope the town wins. In such a situation, I will post this at the end of the game.

I now write this at 1:06am GMT time, 29th of April

Ok, it seems that razorback was scum. Yay for lucky guess! Anyway, this eliminates the possibility of an Exilon/skerterg team, so I have decided to protect Exilon instead of kelikar. Please work.


~Red Star out~





Honestly, I think scum was just completely idiotic right then. In my opinion, they decided to leave me alive so that town decides to lynch me, wasting Day 2. Hopefully this won't come to pass.

Ok, I currently suspect popsofctown due to his rather poor defence of razorback, consisting of "He's funny, let's not lynch him". Then he hammers razorback after saying that I'm his final vote and he's going V/LA. Overall, that is suspicious enough to warrant a vote from me.

Vote: popsofctown

[kelikar]

Good job an a scum lynch guys!

RedStar: I figured what you said was complete WIFOM and I was planning on saying something about how devious your plan was, but I decided against it in case the mafia caught on.

I want to FoS skerterg naturally. He was probably the one defending razor the most, and really seemed to want to keep him alive. Pops didn't seem to truly want him alive, just kinda implying that it was a hilarious predicament.

Would definitely like an explanation from skerterg.

[Excedrin]

Vote: Exilon

New info (razorback's flip) reinforces the reasons I had yesterday. Day 2 has a lot more time to point out that Exilon is obvious scum. Exilon, are you sure you don't want to just resign?

Besides, we have this very nicely placed "lurker" (again?) which could suddenly appear and hammer a potential townie. Knowing this, and according to what red star has stated about his playstyle, it's a conflicting that he'd vote.

Why are you scared of someone hammering a potential townie? It wasn't lylo.

Exilon's post #265 has some other stuff.

I don't know if I should state all my views - I tend to not be very vocal about my early suspicions because they take a while to grow, and scum can use most information about the player's views against them.

Town can use a player's views against them as well. Aside from that, since day was nearly over, weren't you worried that you'd be nightkilled and town would lose your point of view? Finally, it's strange that you were willing to hammer Razorback because he didn't answer questions, not because you thought that behavior meant he was likely scum.

[Red Star]

So Excedrin, Exilon is obviously scum in the same way I am, right? Because I'm not really seeing that much scumminess from him in comparison to some other people.

[Excedrin]

Nah, it looks like I was wrong about razorback and you. If I thought you were scum now, the reason would be based on that you lived, which is obviously WIFOM, so I'm going to ignore it. Actually, many of the reasons to support a Red Star-scum hypothesis were blown away by razorback's lynch.

Does that make sense?

[horrordude0215]

Finally, it's strange that you were willing to hammer Razorback because he didn't answer questions, not because you thought that behavior meant he was likely scum.

This is a misrep. If you look at the post itself, you'll notice it said:

I am willing and ready to hammer Razorback, and I think I made it clear why: it's not because of his playstyle, or that he doesn't write very well, but that he really didn't address anything of what I specifically asked him to answer (apart from one or two cases, IIRC, but even that was a little vague), and because I believed he lied.

He didn't answer questions sure, but IIRC, those questions were asking him to analyze players and defend himself, all things that razorback refused to do.

And look at the last few words... "Because I believe he lied." Now, I'm not sure if I know exactly what razor lied about, but last time I checked, the only people that really benefit from lying are scum... this seems to be him insinuating razorscum to me.

Vote: Excedrin

... Misreps are scummy

[Exilon]

I'm happy we nailed scum. I was nervous that he might just flip town and prove my instinct and reasoning wrong (like last game... bah --') but it seems this time I wasn't barking at the wrong tree. =D

Anyway, there's still one scum left.

But first things first: Red Star claiming doc and the nightkill analysis. At first, I was a little bit at a loss, so I had to write a little bit in order to organize my thoughts and reach a decent conclusion. Let me formulate this:

- Since Red Star claimed, why wasn't he killed?
There could be some reasons for this:
One, because scum found another player being a bigger threat, which doesn't really work since Leafsnail didn't seem like a threat (there were other players who could be considered "more threatening");
Two, being roleblocked and therefore left alive easily, which could make sense in this situation - for example, RB the doc and kill a potential cop (Leafsnail).
Three, obvious one, because he's scum. This one is what is giving me a little trouble. Gulping a claim is always a hard thing to do, but it's even harder in this situation. His explanation post seems consistent with his behaviour so far, but he's basically telling us he was controlling his scumminess. Which... doesn't really seem right. A player who had been controlling his scumminess so "perfectly", to suddenly lose grasp of it and only realize it after the deed had been done (Razorback's wagon was on the way), doesn't make much sense, when put toghether. Countering this is the fact that there has been no counter claim thus far, and it seems a little unlikely to me that scum would risk being counterclaimed, specially when he's the only reamainng one.

@Red Star: For clarification:

Exilon and skerterg were congratulating each other, with both saying that the other had a high chance of being town.

Could you please give me at least one or two examples of this situation? Because I don't really remember commenting that Skerteg had a high chance of being town. (Although I do recall seeing the opposite)

If I die tonight due to being roleblocked

....Huh?

- Why was Leafsnail killed?
Well, questioning the natures of night kills is something that is almost impossible to do, but it's always worth the effort and we have nothing to lose in doing so.
- Scum could be PR hunting;
- Scum wanted to confuse the town ( unlikely because... well... how could Leafsnail's death help in confusing the town?)
- Scum thought he was dangerous. (looking at his ISO, his two suspects were Red Star and Razorback... but Red Star-scum didn't really have a reason to kill him, because he stated "a red star/razorback scumteam seems unlikely."; or rather, there were other people who could be more attractive nightkills.)

All in all, there isn't much here that can help in finding the WHO behind the WHY. That doesn't mean this information is meaningless, though- far from it. Thoughts, anyone?

For now, I'm still waiting for Popsofctown to respond to what has been addressed, (voting Razorback one post after saying "my vote rests on red star") but I'm not really liking the aura around him.

Now...

Why are you scared of someone hammering a potential townie? It wasn't lylo.

Me? I was talking about Red Star. It's even deprehendable from what you quoted. I do admit, I wasn't really believing the "lurker" would pop up and quickhammer, but we have to consider that possibility.

Town can use a player's views against them as well. Aside from that, since day was nearly over, weren't you worried that you'd be nightkilled and town would lose your point of view?

My WHOLE point of view ends up as not being as solid and as needed in Day 1 as it would be, say, on later days. Also, it's not like I had been quiet all day long - far from it. I believe I made my view pretty clear during the course of the day, even. So why are you implying I haven't been stating my views?
By what you're saying, you believe that everyone should post ALL OF THEIR views at twilight because their point of views might be lost during the night. And this... well, it just isn't right.

Finally, it's strange that you were willing to hammer Razorback because he didn't answer questions, not because you thought that behavior meant he was likely scum.

This is untrue, as Horrodude pointed out as well.

And look at the last few words... "Because I believe he lied." Now, I'm not sure if I know exactly what razor lied about, but last time I checked, the only people that really benefit from lying are scum...

Check my ISOPs20 and 21. They should be enough to understand my main motivations for finding Razorback scum.

just because i'm trying too get lylo doesn't mean i'm not scum hunting. i'm working fing lurking player's to help question that is a scummy assessment to made. you think i'm doing you pay so litte attention to what i have been working on..........

Razorback, give us one post where you analyzed one player and tried to evaluate his scumminess. Just that is enough for me to believe that what you are saying is true. You can be doing all the scumhunting in the world, but if you don't post it, then it's the same as nothing. You can't accuse someone of paying you little attention without giving one example.

This is when I accused him of lying unless he gave me an example that he wasn't doing so. The fact is that he didn't, and therefore, I believed he lied.

I hope it's clear =)

[KittyMo]

[1] popsofctown - (Red Star)

[1] Exilon - (Excedrin)
[1] Excedrin - (horrordude0215)

[0] horrordude0215 - ()
[0] kelikar - ()
[0] Red Star - ()
[0] skerterg - ()

[4]

Not Voting

- (Exilon, kelikar, popsofctown, skerterg)

With

7

alive, it's

4

to lynch!

Deadline is at Friday, May 21, 2010 at 8:00:00 AM (San Francisco time).

Prods & Replacements

None yet

All is mystery; but he is a slave who will not struggle to penetrate the dark veil. ~ Benjamin Disraeli

[Red Star]

Exilon, a similar thing happened in my previous game, Newbie 931. Someone who was acting scummy claimed doctor and was left alive on Night 1. It turned out he was the legitimate doctor and we managed to win on Day 2. I personally think that the scum are trying to pull a WIFOM and leave me alive, hoping that the town wastes Day 2 lynching me. Besides, if I was the scum, I would have to have balls of steel to claim doctor with the scum-buddy dead. And my idea was not to appear to be hugely scummy, it was to try and make myself appear to be as non-threatening a target as possible.

Could you please give me at least one or two examples of this situation? Because I don't really remember commenting that Skerteg had a high chance of being town. (Although I do recall seeing the opposite)

Woops, that was a misread of your post 18 when you were talking to skerterg about his SOAP.

I personally don't know why Leafsnail was killed. I considered him to be probable scum due to a bit of back-and-forth between ahoda and razorback, but now it's clear that ahoda was just a really stupid townie.


Finally, is there a person willing to claim cop?

[Excedrin]

Finally, is there a person willing to claim cop?

WTF?

Why even ask that?

Don't rolefish.

[KittyMo]

[1] popsofctown - (Red Star)

[1] Exilon - (Excedrin)
[1] Excedrin - (horrordude0215)

[0] horrordude0215 - ()
[0] kelikar - ()
[0] Red Star - ()
[0] skerterg - ()

[4]

Not Voting

- (Exilon, kelikar, popsofctown, skerterg)

With

7

alive, it's

4

to lynch!

Deadline is at Friday, May 21, 2010 at 8:00:00 AM (San Francisco time).

Prods & Replacements

Being Prodded:
popsofctown & skerterg

"What has puzzled us before seems less mysterious, and the crooked paths look straighter as we approach the end." ~ Jean Paul Richter

[skerterg]

OK, time for me to post. Last night was Prom, and it was terrific

First, a question on roleblocking: if Red Star is roleblocked, would he know of it? I reread the rules and I didn't find the answer, so any help here would be appreciated.

Red Star, I am 99% convinced that you are the doctor. I just cannot believe that the whole episode with razorback was staged. Just read some of the dialogue, and tell me how they can be staged. There is the very small chance that razorback suddenly saw that his style would lead to his lynch and decided to go along with it (hence the 99% and not 100%); however, I think such a scenario is very unlikely. I don't know why scum would keep you alive. Do you know if you are roleblocked? I believe your statement that "the scum are trying to pull a WIFOM and leave me alive."

Looks like your tactic worked, Red Star. I read somewhere that the mafia has the highest chance of role-claiming doctor, since they both serve the same objective: find and save/kill the cop. You did indeed act scummy (at least in my eyes), but in the end it all served some greater purpose.

I still think that it was highly likely that Red Star would be mafia and razorback townie. In fact, I believe it was mostly luck involved with the lynch. Both kelikar and Red Star, if I recall correctly, voted primarily based on being annoyed by razorback's style or uselessness/clutter of his posts. And popsofctown quickly changed his vote at the end to razorback, even though he had stated that he was happy with his vote for Red Star. We are lucky that he flipped scum; otherwise I would be here advocating for the lynch of our doctor. Here are the quotes for reference:

Crap, I can't take it anymore! Even if he is town, I don't care at all, his posts make no sense whatsoever, and if he survived he would be a huge pain in the side to the town. His last two posts are incomprehensable, so imagine having him in lylo. In all honesty, I don't particularly care about his alignment anymore, I just want him to shut up.

Part of the reason that he was lynched was because of the fact that he couldn't put a rational case together. How did that affect the town? It completely distracted everyone. If your in a debate, do you want someone who makes everyone else look at them in a confused matter and go on discussing how dumb their arguments are? No. I distracts from what we're supposed to do: Find the scum. Which leads me to believe that the people that didn't want to lynch razorback didn't really have the best interests of the town in mind.

Red star is my final vote anyway, i like it.

Seeing as I might not get a chance to drop the hammer in the next 12 hours, I'll do it now, what with the high likelyhood of a nolynch now. I am willing to unvote, vote razorback

To kelikar: read the above. I honestly believed razorback was innocent. Even now, I still think we were really lucky that he turned out to be scum. Three of the five people who lynched him had reasons mostly dealing with the fact that he wasn't helping the town and was a bother (or because a no-lynch is the alternative).

Also, I guess I shouldn't state my opinions so blatantly in the future. I really did think that Exilon was townie. Maybe this gave you the indication that we were scum. I didn't mean it, and I'll try to be more careful in the future.

That said, I am glad Exilon waited to hammer. If it were me, I would also wait. If he had hammered, we would have lost all that discussion time. Of course, scum may also appear hesitant to hammer; however, I do not believe this was the reason. Also, if he were scum, wouldn't he want to jump on the Red Star wagon beginning to build at the end of the day? He didn't do that.

I imagine that these are these are some potential paths the scum took once he found that razorback's style and general behavior would lead to his lynch:

1. Bus him immediately. (1st or 2nd vote)
2. Defend him at first, find someone else to attack bandwagon.
3. Turn on him towards the end (4th vote or hammer) as the situation becomes desperate.

I myself am guilty of point 2. Who else voted for or stated that he would vote for Red Star? We have popsofctown and Excedrin (and razorback, but he is known scum).

However, popsofctown was the one who suddenly turned in the end and voted for razorback. He is therefore my top suspect. In addition, his behavior towards the end was very erratic, as he had said just a few posts before that he was happy with voting for Red Star. This is strange and should be looked at more in depth. Why did you do it, pops?

[popsofctown]

Doctors aren't informed if they are roleblocked.

I'm surprised at razorback's flip, my read of him was wrong. The reason I hammered at the end of the day is that it appeared to be razorback or nolynch. You should ALWAYS have a lynch. Forum mafia players perform better than random chances at reading players, but not significantly much better on the average. One mistake a lot of players make is overconfidence. Making good reads can only move a read of a player from 2/9s chance of being scum to like, 3/9's chance. Or a read on a townie from 2/9 to 2.5/9. Human players just aren't that good, and keeping such pessimism in mind can improve your play. For example, I always trust cop investigations, even if there is a 15%ish chance the investigation was wrong. (that's a ballpark estimate of how often a sane cop can get incorrect results in large, closed games. Not possible in this one). That's because that read is 85% accurate. Humans are like, 55% accurate.


In the same way, lynching is better than nolynching, just because you might be wrong about someone. I was wrong about razorback, and it's a good thing he was hammered, otherwise we could have no lynched. When you no lynch, you just sacrifice a townie to the mafia instead of lynching. It's bad.


I'm worried Red Star is creative scum, I'm not really sure. The diary thing is scummy, seems like trying to hard to prove he's doctor.

[skerterg]

As I was thinking about this, I found that Exilon already addressed my main points.

Three, obvious one, because he's scum. This one is what is giving me a little trouble. Gulping a claim is always a hard thing to do, but it's even harder in this situation. His explanation post seems consistent with his behaviour so far, but he's basically telling us he was controlling his scumminess. Which... doesn't really seem right. A player who had been controlling his scumminess so "perfectly", to suddenly lose grasp of it and only realize it after the deed had been done (Razorback's wagon was on the way), doesn't make much sense, when put toghether.

Countering this is the fact that there has been no counter claim thus far, and it seems a little unlikely to me that scum would risk being counterclaimed, specially when he's the only reamainng one.

Precisely. Why would Red Star risk a counterclaim? The Mafia would lose the game for sure, since he is the only one left. He has a 50% of guessing correctly. I don't know if he would be willing to take these chances. That is why I am accepting his previous behavior and believing him.

I'm going to assume that Red Star is doctor for the rest of this post.

My thoughts on why Leafsnail was killed:
There are only two reasons I can see.
1. Pull a WIFOM and see if the town suspects Red Star of being false-claiming scum.
2. Roleblock him while killing others who may be cop.
There should be no good reason not to keep the doctor alive unless the mafia can roleblock him. Let's imagine the two possible scenarios:

Mafia goon is alive: knows that there is no cop. Why even bother hunting for cop? Kill the doctor immediately. Can try to pull WIFOM in leaving Red Star alive, but killing doctor is still better, especially when there is no chance for cop. Pure WIFOM at this point.

Mafia roleblocker is alive (and is not Red Star): knows that there is a cop (if Red Star is doctor, which is likely, seeing that it would be bad for vanilla townie to claim). Keeps Red Star alive and roleblocks him from protecting anyone. Eliminates one person from possibility of being cop. The alternative would be to kill Red Star immediately and roleblock other people, which increases likelihood of preventing cop investigation (can kill one person and roleblock another, instead of wasting night after night roleblocking Red Star).

Thus, unless the mafia is pulling a WIFOM (which is a real possibility, I grant you), then the only real reason for not killing Red Star is if the remaining mafia is roleblocker. Actually, on further thought, killing Red Star would be the best option for either scenario. Mafia goon rids a useful townie. Mafia roleblocker does not have to waste roleblocks.

I think that the roleblocker scenario is more likely. In the goon scenario, the only reasoning for not killing Red Star is WIFOM. In the roleblocker scenario, the mafia can at least keep Red Star in check, and hope for WIFOM.

I'm not sure what the whole point is in determining the game setup, but I bet it would be useful to know, especially since the mafia should already know what it is. It provides more information for us if we can determine what the setup is.

Thanks pops for answering.

[Red Star]

So, everyone has posted, and no one so far has counterclaimed or claimed cop. What I can assume from this is that we are playing on a double-goon and doc setup. Anyone disagree?

@popsofctown: It wouldn't have been a no-lynch. Lynch occurs on majority at time-out. Therefore razorback would have been lynched anyway. Also, I'd like to know where you got your statistics, it seems that you're just throwing numbers to try and save your skin.

[popsofctown]

It was an MD thread from ages past. Sorry, I don't know how or where to find it.

Red Star, there is probably a roleblocker and a cop, the cop just isn't as foolish as you are. If the cop claims, mafia roleblock you and kill the cop, then kill you the next night. That simple.

[horrordude0215]

I always find NK speculation to be a lot of WIFOM, and I don't really look at it much. For right now I'm treating Red Star as the doc, because, well, I believe the claim.

Would appreciate some more posting in the thread, though.

[Exilon]

So, everyone has posted, and no one so far has counterclaimed or claimed cop. What I can assume from this is that we are playing on a double-goon and doc setup. Anyone disagree?

I do disagree. A cop claim would throw things haywire. For reasons Pops stated, and because there's a high chance that it is a fakeclaim. If there is a cop, it is best if he stayed covered for now. We're on Day 2 and there's only one scum left. Only reason I can think of someone to claim would be L1.

As Excedrin stated, that's kinda rolefishing. Tell us: how can we benefit, right now, from a cop claim?
Also, there was this one thing you haven't addressed it. Why did you say "If I die due to being roleblocked"?

Excedrin addressed none of my answers to his questions, and his vote still remains on me. I don't like it - please respond, excedrin.

As for Pops, it even had been stated in the thread that a no-lynch was impossible at deadline. Leafsnail said it, I reckon. Didn't you read that? Or the rules?

[KittyMo]

[1] popsofctown - (Red Star)

[1] Exilon - (Excedrin)
[1] Excedrin - (horrordude0215)

[0] horrordude0215 - ()
[0] kelikar - ()
[0] Red Star - ()
[0] skerterg - ()

[4]

Not Voting

- (Exilon, kelikar, popsofctown, skerterg)

With

7

alive, it's

4

to lynch!

Deadline is at Friday, May 21, 2010 at 8:00:00 AM (San Francisco time).

[popsofctown]

I read them. I forgot. Most games do a no lynch.

[Excedrin]

...blah blah blah... snipped

If I die tonight due to being roleblocked

....Huh?

He thinks that the could have protected himself, but he could still die if he was blocked and killed.

Why are you scared of someone hammering a potential townie? It wasn't lylo.

Me? I was talking about Red Star. It's even deprehendable from what you quoted. I do admit, I wasn't really believing the "lurker" would pop up and quickhammer, but we have to consider that possibility.

I don't know what "deprehendable" means, but why do you apparently care if someone popped in and hammered? If the hammered player is town or scum, you get some solid info in either case. Also, does this imply that you thought Red Star was town before razorback's flip OR only that now you think Red Star is town?

Town can use a player's views against them as well. Aside from that, since day was nearly over, weren't you worried that you'd be nightkilled and town would lose your point of view?

My WHOLE point of view ends up as not being as solid and as needed in Day 1 as it would be, say, on later days. Also, it's not like I had been quiet all day long - far from it. I believe I made my view pretty clear during the course of the day, even. So why are you implying I haven't been stating my views?

That's your interpretation. To answer your question I'd have to agree that I'm implying something.

By what you're saying, you believe that everyone should post ALL OF THEIR views at twilight because their point of views might be lost during the night. And this... well, it just isn't right.

Eh, you can disagree about "how to play mafia" all day long, it does nothing to find scum. It's a great way to active lurk though.

Finally, it's strange that you were willing to hammer Razorback because he didn't answer questions, not because you thought that behavior meant he was likely scum.

This is untrue, as Horrodude pointed out as well.

And look at the last few words... "Because I believe he lied." Now, I'm not sure if I know exactly what razor lied about, but last time I checked, the only people that really benefit from lying are scum...

Check my ISOPs20 and 21. They should be enough to understand my main motivations for finding Razorback scum.

The context and content of those posts look like you're razorback's scumbuddy, coaching him to improve his play.

Example:

Fos: Razorback
And I am aware you are close to L1. Anyway, if you can't respond to what people are asking or defend yourself properly, you'll never be able to get to Lylo, as you say you want.

razorback's self-preservation and concern with survival is scummy, but here you're saying "well, if you want to survive you have to defend yourself better."

just because i'm trying too get lylo doesn't mean i'm not scum hunting. i'm working fing lurking player's to help question that is a scummy assessment to made. you think i'm doing you pay so litte attention to what i have been working on..........

Razorback, give us one post where you analyzed one player and tried to evaluate his scumminess. Just that is enough for me to believe that what you are saying is true. You can be doing all the scumhunting in the world, but if you don't post it, then it's the same as nothing. You can't accuse someone of paying you little attention without giving one example.

This is when I accused him of lying unless he gave me an example that he wasn't doing so. The fact is that he didn't, and therefore, I believed he lied.

I hope it's clear =)

The example you included from post #204 reads the same way. I noted it in my first post, except that now it looks like a subtle defense of your scumbuddy rather than scum trying to avoid suspicion after a mislynch.

The points I brought up in my first post are much stronger now that you're attempting to say that you did think that razorback was scum, despite the closest thing in any of your posts to that effect are your "FoS: Razorback".

I checked the posts where you mention razorback, there's a definite connection here.
#58 "Why is it rolefishing?"
#65 defending razorback from kelikar / explaining razorback POV
#80 razorback has been modkilled in the past and has a genuine non-scummy reason
to be concerned with his self-preservation
#169 Razorback is just a floundering townie lol he can't vote
#204 "Suddenly Razorback is at L1" reads "Oh shit, my scumbuddy!"
"..., and, well... I can't say I don't agree with it." reads "I can't defend him without appearing to be scum, gotta go along with it"

So, Exilon needs more votes.

[horrordude0215]

Finally, it's strange that you were willing to hammer Razorback because he didn't answer questions, not because you thought that behavior meant he was likely scum.

This is untrue, as Horrodude pointed out as well.

And look at the last few words... "Because I believe he lied." Now, I'm not sure if I know exactly what razor lied about, but last time I checked, the only people that really benefit from lying are scum...

Check my ISOPs20 and 21. They should be enough to understand my main motivations for finding Razorback scum.

The context and content of those posts look like you're razorback's scumbuddy, coaching him to improve his play.

Why the sudden change in the case? You couldn't try and milk THAT case on him, so you flip flop to a different one?

So,

Exilon

Excedrin needs more votes.

Fixed

[Exilon]

.... Hum... ok?

He thinks that he could have protected himself, but he could still die if he was blocked and killed.

How do you know that's what he thought? He never stated anywhere that he thought of protecting himself, and that isn't even possible.

I don't know what "deprehendable" means, but why do you apparently care if someone popped in and hammered? If the hammered player is town or scum, you get some solid info in either case.

I'm sorry, my bad. The correct word is "Deprehensible"; it basically meant that from reading only what you quoted, one could understand / graps / deduce / deprehend that I was talking about Red Star, not me.
I do care if someone suddenly pops up and hammers, because that's cutting the day and the discussion short. What if that person is just outright stupid and hammered because he / she didn't notice that the person was at L1? Then we'd waste the next day and lynch a townie because he was stupid. Best to play it safe- nothing is harmed if a person holds the L1 vote. Of course, as I've stated, it isn't very likely, but it is a possiblity that has to be considered.

Also, does this imply that you thought Red Star was town before razorback's flip OR only that now you think Red Star is town?

How can you ask this from what I've written? I didn't imply neither of those, neither was that sentence about whether or not I suspected Red Star before or after the flip. I don't see where you're coming from here.

My WHOLE point of view ends up as not being as solid and as needed in Day 1 as it would be, say, on later days. Also, it's not like I had been quiet all day long - far from it. I believe I made my view pretty clear during the course of the day, even. So why are you implying I haven't been stating my views?

That's your interpretation. To answer your question I'd have to agree that I'm implying something.

You could answer my question with "no, that's not what I'm implying", and then explain yourself. Instead, you state that if you were to answer, you'd have to agree with the fact that you're implying "something".

So let's see. My point was that you were implying I hadn't been stating my views, which isn't true. So my point ends up being that you were accusing me of something which isn't true.
You refuse to answer, because if you had to answer, you'd have to agree with me that you're implying "something". So, by what you're saying, you answer, in case it existed, wouldn't be a "no", it would be a "yes, I'm implying you haven't been stating your views" - which translates to "yes, I'm implying a fact that isn't true".

I'm confused. Some clarification would be most welcome.

By what you're saying, you believe that everyone should post ALL OF THEIR views at twilight because their point of views might be lost during the night. And this... well, it just isn't right.

Eh, you can disagree about "how to play mafia" all day long, it does nothing to find scum. It's a great way to active lurk though.

Whoa... Another one?! I find it hard to believe that I am reading this the right way, but I have tried to read this from other ways and it just doesn't work...

By saying that "I disagree" with you, it means you believe, in fact, that EVERYONE should post their views at twilight because that same view might be lost during the night. Yet, you're contradicintg yourself - unless I missed your twilight post which contained all of your views. ...Wait. No, I didn't miss it. It's not there.
And by your logic, you should be asking that question ("werten't you afraid you'd be killed during the night"?) to the majority of the players here, since they also didn't post their whole views during twilight...

just because i'm trying too get lylo doesn't mean i'm not scum hunting. i'm working fing lurking player's to help question that is a scummy assessment to made. you think i'm doing you pay so litte attention to what i have been working on..........

Razorback, give us one post where you analyzed one player and tried to evaluate his scumminess. Just that is enough for me to believe that what you are saying is true. You can be doing all the scumhunting in the world, but if you don't post it, then it's the same as nothing. You can't accuse someone of paying you little attention without giving one example.

This is when I accused him of lying unless he gave me an example that he wasn't doing so. The fact is that he didn't, and therefore, I believed he lied.

I hope it's clear =)

The context and content of those posts look like you're razorback's scumbuddy, coaching him to improve his play.

Example:

Fos: Razorback
And I am aware you are close to L1. Anyway, if you can't respond to what people are asking or defend yourself properly, you'll never be able to get to Lylo, as you say you want.

razorback's self-preservation and concern with survival is scummy, but here you're saying "well, if you want to survive you have to defend yourself better."

For me, his self-preservation and concern with survival wasn't THAT scummy, for reasons I posted. his lack of defense, on the other hand, is pretty much reason for me to suspect him. Coaching him? I was stating a fact. And am I the only one who told Razorback "that's not the way to go if you want to survive"?. I can see how you can consider that coaching, but really now, would I really just say "you're not defending, that's scummy, die scum" and vote him? This is a newbie game. People are learning. I'm not going to ignore the possibility he is just a midless, helpless townie who is frustrated with the fact he gets killed early every time. Which, by the way, was a very strong possibility at the time.

The example you included from post #204 reads the same way. I noted it in my first post, except that now it looks like a subtle defense of your scumbuddy rather than scum trying to avoid suspicion after a mislynch.

But explain to me, how does accusing a player of lying (razorback), pressuring him, and showing that same quote to another player (Horrordude) can be considered "avoiding attention from a mislynch" or even "defending his scumbuddy"?

The points I brought up in my first post are much stronger

now that you're attempting to say that you did think that razorback was scum, despite the closest thing in any of your posts to that effect are your "FoS: Razorback".

Do you need reading glasses or skipped a fourth of my Day 1 posts? You're saying I never stated that I thought Razorback was scum except for my FoS post, which is a blatant lie.

I checked the posts where you mention razorback, there's a definite connection here.
#58 "Why is it rolefishing?"

Explain to me how asking for clarification on something someone said and which I found wrong, specifically that question, translate to me being Razorback's scumbuddy.

#65 defending razorback from kelikar / explaining razorback POV
#80 razorback has been modkilled in the past and has a genuine non-scummy reason
to be concerned with his self-preservation

Explain to me how trying to consider all possibilities and the player's town / scum reasons and motivations translates to me being his scum partner.

#169 Razorback is just a floundering townie lol he can't vote

Did I really say this?

#204 "Suddenly Razorback is at L1" reads "Oh shit, my scumbuddy!"
"..., and, well... I can't say I don't agree with it." reads "I can't defend him without appearing to be scum, gotta go along with it"

Not really. I'm not worried I look scum or not, what I'm worried about is that he's going to flip town (even more if that happened due to some quickhammer). At the time, there was the possibility he was town, which progressively went down as he failed to give me anything pro-town. And that "suddenly" was indeed because it was "suddenly".

Bolded mine for the sake of simplicity.

I'm finnaly over with this. Anyway, Excedrin, it's a

FoS: Excedrin

from me until you are able to explain yourself properly. There were so many things I found wrong about your post it wasn't even funny.

[Exilon]

What was that I was sure I had put a /b at the end and now look it's all BIG and O_o and- Kitty, would you be as kind as to please correct that for me? just bold the fos :3 Thank yuuu

Fixed. The issue was that you didn't close a different bold tag in the quote tag. You remembered the [/b] after the FOS. ~Kitty

[Exilon]

EBWOP: I just noticed I didn't change one thing which is hugely wrong and I thought it was right up there. In the oyramid of quotes, this is what should actualy be there:

Finally, it's strange that you were willing to hammer Razorback because he didn't answer questions, not because you thought that behavior meant he was likely scum.

This is untrue, as Horrodude pointed out as well.

And look at the last few words... "Because I believe he lied." Now, I'm not sure if I know exactly what razor lied about, but last time I checked, the only people that really benefit from lying are scum...

Check my ISOPs20 and 21. They should be enough to understand my main motivations for finding Razorback scum.

The context and content of those posts look like you're razorback's scumbuddy, coaching him to improve his play.

Sorry about that :s But since they're quotes from the same post and are both addressed with the same point, it shouldn't make too much of a difference :s Again, sorry.