Mini 973: "Bawhston" Brawl (WHAT A WIN!)

[Gwynplaine]

Props to Hoopla for getting us out of the RVS in Post 5. If she really is a PGO, then claiming early on Day 1 might be the right thing to do. Maybe. I'm having a hard time seeing a scum motivation for fakeclaiming straight out of the box like that, other than the obvious.

xRECKONERx has got to be joking, right? It's hard to imagine anybody making that suggestion seriously.

Vote: xRECKONERx

for either acting silly or giving appallingly bad advice.

[Gwynplaine]

Everyone target Hoopla tonight

gg

Anyone who took this post seriously should do the human gene pool a favor and go kill themselves.

You planning to start playing the game any time soon, or are you just gonna keep cracking wise?

[Gwynplaine]

He's being waaaaay too aggressive at this stage in the game to be town.

Really? You thought I was being aggressive?

[Gwynplaine]

PGO is a tough role to play, but I feel like the most pro-town way to play it would be to attract as little attention as possible from all, only claiming if you begin to look suspicious to the town.

Consider whether that sort of behavior wouldn't make the PGO more likely to be targetted by certain town PRs.

If someone can explain how an early PGO claim helps town I would be happy to consider.

Short answer: If the claim is true, and believed, it potentially saves the life of every other town PR.

I can explain in more detail, but not without getting into a lot of setup speculation and discussion of power role strategy, which I'm not sure would be helpful at this point.

[Gwynplaine]

I think it would attract more attention from the mafia, but I suppose it is a risk.

In your experience, do the mafia typically target the scummiest players? Because, let's face it, what you're saying the PGO should do is act like scum.

[Gwynplaine]

PGO is not risky, it's beneficial. Unconfirmed (and unconfirmable) PGO is. Any number of scum could hide behind that mask.

This makes no sense. The circumstances under which a living player could be confirmed as a Paranoid Gun Owner are vanishingly rare. (In fact, I can only think of one that could occur in a normal game, and that would require outing at least two other town PRs.)

Vote: Slepz

[Gwynplaine]

I understand that it is unconfirmable; I said so in my post. This intrinsic property is what makes it so bad.

Seems to me you were contrasting "PGO" with "Unconfirmed/unconfirmable PGO" which is what I say makes no sense.

Any

PGO claim is practically unconfirmable, so why would you say "PGO isn't risky, but an unconfirmed PGO is?"

In other news, JacobSavage needs to post more.

[Gwynplaine]

To the folks voting for Hoopla (Radical Hijinx, Slepz, havingfitz): you're gonna need four more votes, and so far it doesn't seem like the rest of us are willing to lynch her based solely on her claim. Do you see anything else that makes you think she's scum? Anything give you a hint at who her partners might be?

Also, still waiting for the lurkers and semi-lurkers -- but not pressuring them, because InflatablePie is afraid they'll get their feelings hurt if somebody says that they should post more.

[Gwynplaine]

Ooh, did I touch a nerve?

Cast your mind back over every time someone has said that to you. Not just in mafia games, but in any context. Was that person ever right?

[Gwynplaine]

Show me where I have called my stance "policy".

Just because you don't call it that doesn't mean the rest of us can't.

You're voting for Hoopla based only on her roleclaim. You don't seem to be considering her other posts at all. This makes me think you'd be voting for anybody who'd claimed PGO in their first post, regardless of who they were or what else they posted. That may not be a policy lynch by your definition, but arguments against policy lynches easily double as arguments against your position.

[Gwynplaine]

Wee, the only non voter!

And I must say

vote:Slepz

To make everything nice an symmetrical

This is the worst post of the game so far.

Vote: JacobSavage

[Gwynplaine]

Why am I still the only one voting for this guy?

[Gwynplaine]

Gwynplaine, would you be opposed to changing your vote over to Slepz today?

I was voting for Slepz before it was cool. JacobSavage struck me as ridiculously scummy, but that doesn't necessarily make Slepz any less scummy.

Vote: Slepz

Also, Havingfitz raises an interesting point about Hoopla. I still find the PGO claim as a scum gambit unlikely, but there's no denying the pattern he points out.

[Gwynplaine]

@ Furry

I was reasonably happy with my vote, as it was symmetrical,

What makes "symmetrical" votes desirable? How does a tied vote count benefit the town?

[Gwynplaine]

Slepz is lurking. So he needs to die. End of story.

You are aware he's V/LA right?

He was. He said on Sunday that he'd be back Tuesday, which was yesterday.

[Gwynplaine]

i live by the rule be a scummy as possible

Do you understand that this is why people want to lynch you?

[Gwynplaine]

How does that help the town? You're not helping to find scum. You've said that you're willing to lynch town and follow scum-led bandwagons. You're making plans based on the assumption that the person you're voting for is town. You've also said that you could be a lot more scummy, but frankly I don't see how.

vote: JacobSavage

[Gwynplaine]

Man, I went to work and missed all the excitement. I don't think I buy the vig claim. SK or mafia seems more likely. If we somehow don't lynch JacobSavage today I agree that we need to pick his target. But right now I still think lynching him is the right move.

It's probably worth noting that Nikanor was the first to suggest that JacobSavage kill Hoopla, which is really only a good idea if you think she's lying or don't know how the PGO works. He's never voiced an opinion on Hoopla's claim one way or the other, but she was on his list of "town reads" in iso 13. Probably, like Oso and InflatablePie, he was just unclear on the mechanics.

I'd also like to know the reasoning behind TheButtonmen's sudden hate-on for me. I've been basically ignoring him so far, because what can you really say to something like that? "Nuh-uh you" is about it.

[Gwynplaine]

I'm agianst lynching Slepz not because he's a lurker but because it's a waste of time as we can use the claimed vig to remove him thus saving a lynch.

What does "saving a lynch" mean? Assuming that we're voting on who we tell JS to kill, we're either voting to lynch Player X and have JS kill Player Y or we're voting to lynch Player Y and have JS kill Player X.

[Gwynplaine]

Right, reasoning time:
Lets step into the world of xReckonerx, by a ISO:

You've already claimed town, so you can stop "pretending" to be scum now.

[Gwynplaine]

Not quite; one is a lurker lynch thus generates little usable discussion for D2, where as the other would force people to chose between active players; thus much more discussion for D2.

If we do this, we're also going to vote pubicly on who we tell JS to kill.

[Gwynplaine]

You'll note his position on the earlier Slepz wagon was around the same position, and if Dsister flips town at some point, I think this would be quite a damning revelation. His votes while not obviously poorly reasoned, were merely tagged on using previously held suspicions by others.

I think you'll find that I was the first person to vote for Slepz and the first person to vote for JacobSavage, so I'm not sure how it's possible that my votes were "merely tagged on using previously held suspicions by others" unless I have time-travel or mind-reading powers.

Now that JS has been dealt with,

vote: dsister

[Gwynplaine]

dsister needs to post something soon~.

Indeed.

Q21 seems to be MIA as well.

[Gwynplaine]

I just want to point out that TheButtonMen was sitting at L-2 before Hoopla had her little psychotic break or whatever that was and moved her vote (eventually) to InflatablePie. I point this out now just so we don't get a third chorus of the "Why Did The Wagon I Jumped Off Of Fall Apart Blues.

vote: Hoopla

[Gwynplaine]

Not really ^^

That's good. Then this won't bother you either:

Vote: Midnight's Sorrow

[Gwynplaine]

Why should I be bothered by a vote that was made because my predecessor 'lurked'?

Is that why I'm voting for you?

Why should I be bothered by a vote that was made because of jumping on something small, that holds nothing to my alignment?

Is that why I'm voting for you?

Most certainly why should a vote that has no reason other then to(Seemingly) be crass??

Or is that why I'm voting for you?

Apparently my vote bothered you enough for you to make up three different reasons why it didn't bother you.

[Gwynplaine]

I'm still going to wait for TBM to claim before I hammer.

And yet you didn't. Why is that?

[Gwynplaine]

I agree. A mass claim aint all that bad considering how things have gone. Yet we

should[/b] see if its the right way to go at this point in time.~

So it's not a bad idea, but it might not be a good idea, either? Could you be more wishy-washy?

How do you propose that we go about "seeing if it's the right way to go?"

[Gwynplaine]

I'm not "twisting" anything. Your words are there for all to see.

Okay, you think mass claim is a good idea. Why? How will it help us?

Secondly, you think this may not be the best time to do it. What would be the best time?

[Gwynplaine]

Vanilla townie here as well. I have other thoughts but I'll wait until everybody's claimed. Which is Oso and q21 at this point, unless I missed something.

[Gwynplaine]

Huh. I went from zero votes to L-1 since the last time I logged in. Now that everybody's drinking the Hoopla Kool-Aid this may be too little, too late, but here goes.

The whole vote count thing is just daft. I don't see the significance of the two facts that a.) at one point in the game I voted the same way a couple of confirmed townies (and a couple people who are probably townies) voted and b.) at another, completely different point in the game I didn't vote the same way a bunch of people whose alignments have yet to be confirmed. I especially don't see how that reflects on my alignment at all. I mean, yes, if you start by assuming that certain players are scum, then you can construct a scenario where their votes match some kind of scummy agenda, but outside of some very unusual corner cases there is no set of votes for which you couldn't do that. You could use pretty much the exact same logic that Hoopla uses against me against, say, Oso or havingfitz.

So there's that. Nikanor is voting me because ... I'm the only one who's smart enough to have spotted his coptells? I'm flattered, I guess, but you're giving me way too much credit. What coptells, by the way? Did you deliberately breadcrumb?

Midnight's Sorrow is voting me because ... he's just doing his usual "tagalong"/"me too" routine.

And Oso's voting me because he thinks I didn't give reasons for some of my earlier votes. I thought I did, though it's true I usually didn't say "I'm voting X because of 1, 2, and 3," but it should be clear in looking back at my posts why I voted the way I did. I also find that it can be useful to not to spell out specific reasons and then see how the person reacts. People can sometimes reveal a lot by how they defend themselves. Not that it matters now, but if you're wondering about any of my earlier votes, ask me and I'll explain it to you.

---

So there's that. Now I'm gonna vote for somebody and,

pace

Oso, give my reasons for my vote as clearly as I can.

VOTE: Midnight's Sorrow

... because Slepz used his few posts mostly to sow Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt, and because Midnight Sorrow has been so cautious and noncommital, following along with others' reasoning and almost never advancing a case of his own. (For example, consider the fact that other than MS's first vote on havingfitz, which lasted for all of two posts, nobody in that spot has ever put the first vote on anybody.)

[Gwynplaine]

That was my first loss as scum. Brilliant game. Just a couple of quick thoughts. I might have more later.

First of all, well-played to the town, and especially to Hoopla. That said, Hoopla got really lucky with the setup and especially with the way the scum role PMs were written. We had to specify which player made the kill even though as it turns out that didn't affect the game play at all, since there were no watchers, trackers, town roleblockers or ... you know. If there hadn't been that stipulation, we would have disbelieved the PGO claim and killed her N1. If there really had been three mafia, I'd have strongly suggested killing her on night one whether we believed the claim or not.

Reckoner, we killed you pretty much at random. You seemed like a "middle of the pack" player, unlikely to be doc-protected but not really much of a lynch candidate. After nobody tried to analyze the night kill, we just started killing the players who seemed most pro-town. I was really surprised when y'all lynched Oso, who was on our shortlist of towniest players on Nights 1 and 2. Just goes to show how different things look when you know the right answers.

Yabbaguy", very well done on the modding. Hilarious death scenes and I like the buttons. I think I *did* click on the button to send in actions on Night 2.

*Yeah, I know, but it's the beginning of a sentence. Deal with it.