Mini 957 - Everyone's a Hero Mafia - Game Over

[MonkeyMan576]

The game ending night one would be incredibly broken. Mod's don't put all the time and effort into a game for it to end on one or two nights based on the actions of a couple players. That's just not the way mafia is played.

Ok, assume the game doesn't end. But you two do win. How does that help everyone else? Should town just play for a secondary, half-ass win? I dont know about everyone else, but I'm

PLAYING TO WIN

- I believe thats even one of mith's rules for this board. Always play to win. I dont see how letting you win fits into that scheme.

Well, it would make us confirmed townies. Even if we're out of the game, you'd know we aren't scum. That way you could concentrate on other players, you'd have less players to investigate and waste other night actions on. Consolidating the game this way only helps town.

[iLord]

Vote Count the Fourth (Unchanged)

MonkeyMan576 (2): semioldguy, Timeater
McGriddle (1): Riceballtail
Riceballtail (3): Thor665, esuriospiritus, McGriddle

Not Voting (4):, Snow_Bunny_Is_Awesome, MonkeyMan576, Snow_Bunny, TheButtonmen

With ten alive, it's five to lynch.

[Thor665]

Consolidating the game this way only helps town.

I'm not sure if it's helpful for that - since in effect it will be like a lynch and a Nightkill without the attendant day of discussion or the ability to perform actions at night. How do you disagree with this and paint the result as more pro town?

The only real advantage I see is that I am suspicious of both you and Button and the thought of both of you being 'cleared' via win and removal from the game is tempting.

[MonkeyMan576]

Consolidating the game this way only helps town.

I'm not sure if it's helpful for that - since in effect it will be like a lynch and a Nightkill without the attendant day of discussion or the ability to perform actions at night. How do you disagree with this and paint the result as more pro town?

The only real advantage I see is that I am suspicious of both you and Button and the thought of both of you being 'cleared' via win and removal from the game is tempting.

You won't need to target us with night actions. The odds of catching scum with a night action is greater in a 7 player game scenario vs. a 9 player game scenario(assuming scum successfully kill a townie tonight). Plus you have two less players in day discussion to worry about who is swaying the town the wrong way.

[esuriospiritus]

omg. all nearby internetz won't stop being dumb. Access has been very sporadic. Profuse apologies. I go to work in like 5 mins but will do everything in my (limited, no-car) power to ensure I get a proper post in sometime in the next 16 hours or so. So, so sorry. DDD:

[esuriospiritus]

Oooookay. Behold, an actual, bona fide, USDA Certified Organic esurio post (now with double the soy! ^_^) *fanfare*

I can't conceive of this as a scum gambit unless the setup is bad enough where two mislynches equates to a town loss.

QFT. There comes a time occasionally where you just have to trust that the mod didn't make the game so bastardly as to end before hitting at least Day 4. Town stands a hell of a lot to gain by trusting Monkey and Button and giving them a chance to remove themselves from the game (especially since previous to their claims I didn't trust either). I think the theory of Monkey being town and lying about it is quite possibly correct in light of Button's claim and a dash of guess-the-setup (removing two town seems imbal and two scum having to "find each other" would be way too fucking easy), but if this thing actually removes him from the game, hey, a scum out of the game is a scum out of the game, right? If not, easy lynch is easy, at least.

@Timeater: If Button and Monkey are not gone at the start of day three, we lynch them, monkey first. What's so hard about that?

I'm also banking on the mod being not one of those dicks who makes someone's relatively easy win condition win them first place and make town and scum compete for second. (lol/facepalm if I'm wrong, though.)

Well, on the plus side, we know Esurio's scum now.

Pfft. How exactly am I supposed to defend myself against an accusation if you don't actually bother making a case? Or is that the point? Oh, wait, that's right, you're scum, so probably. If I'm so obvscum at least stop being dumbscum and actually vote for me.

I highly doubt that the alleged Monkey/Button win condition would be a showstopper. Besides... if they don't do it tonight, knowing who they are, then we know they're both scum and can lynch them.

Woah.

WOAH.

WOAAAH.

Stop the press, did RBT actually say something useful/not obvscum? I don't believe it!

What really got me off supporting Monkey and Buttonmen was Buttonmen's really odd post where he declared that the person he says is part of his win condition is lying about both his win condition and name claim. That just doesn't make sense. If Button thinks Monkey is lying about all of that then why does he want to trust him (and via his own claim, attempt to clear him)? It really seemed like a pre set-up to condemn Monkey on Day 3 when the effect doesn't work.

If you were Monkey, and you were telling the truth about your basic role and needed to be able to find someone, but were a Hero and couldn't tell the truth about your name without getting auto-lynched, you'd probably do the same thing Button thinks Monkey did. It makes sense to me. I don't really think it was trying to condemn him (and the weirdness of it all makes me more convinced that they're telling the truth about their roles. A scum gambit would have come out way less awkward and a lot cleaner, methinks).

[Thor665]

That's an interesting thought, esurio, I hadn't considered the possibility of a scum/town alternate win, I'd been presuming they were both town or both scum only. It could also make a lot of sense for Penny to be classified as a 'hero' from a fluff standpoint. That actually increases the relative value of letting them get their win condition because it will snake us our second scum. I'm back to supporting allowing the alternate win and am still for lynching RBT.

@McGriddle - I'd still like to hear...well, anything from you (specifically on the Button/Monkey question)

@Snow_Bunny - if your clone can't vote (as you claim), what is its purpose? As proved by SOG we can indeed lynch the clone, I'd actually appreciate it if you could at least have the clone drop a vote on a player so we could ascertain its ability, or lack thereof, to vote for ourselves via the vote count.

Also, what is your call on the Button/Monkey question, I don't think you've weighed in yet.

[Timeater]

iLord Quote:

[07] Behavioral Analysis > Role Analysis

@esurio - why are you blanking-out the fact that a town win will be secondary if they win first? Thats 'whats so hard about it'

@bunny - you have had ample time to ask ilord, can your double vote or not?

@thor - Can toss aside your socratic-method style of playing for a moment and tell us all what

you think

is the proper course of action given all known variables at this point?

What do you think should happen?

@sog - can you summarize the playstyle and usefulness of any two players, in-depth, at least a paragraph given to each? I dont not care who, just pick any two. Do not concern yourself with the whys of my question, I am simply curious and would like your analysis.

@griddle - so sorry about your accident, what happened? You nonchalantly mentioned you have several abilities...why did you bother to disclose this information? What point did it serve?

@monkey - You failed to answer my question. Why should the town help you come in first place? What

value

does our win have when you have already won by doing what you two have done today?

@button - you claimed to have a more than one-shot vig. You say you tried to vig me and you mentioned you will vig anyone the town chooses. You say you have a 'death ray that isn't 100%'. Did you feel that disclosing this information is useful to the town?

@rbt - can you explain, in depth, why you are so sure esurio is scum?

[Thor665]

@thor - Can toss aside your socratic-method style of playing for a moment and tell us all what

you think

is the proper course of action given all known variables at this point?

What do you think should happen?

From my previous post;

I'm back to supporting allowing the alternate win and am still for lynching RBT.

Does it need to be more clear then what I've already said? I think I'm being as clear in my beliefs at any moment as anyone else, and moreso then most.

The only thing I haven't weighed in on yet is maybe the 'Death Ray Question' but I'm still waiting for Button to actually return and answer some questions outstanding about it. I'll have a better feeling for who I'd want to target with a death ray if McGriddle would reappear, SOG would say more, and Snow_Bunny would expound on the voting capability of her clone deal. I'd probably want to shoot one of them, but am unsure as to my preference at this point.

[TheButtonmen]

@Thor:

In regards to your question about Death Ray accuracy; yes the PM told me there could be accuracy issues.

@Timeater:

All wins are equal; you don't win less if other people win. Is there any other reason then winning less you don't like the plan I laid out?

[MonkeyMan576]

@monkey - You failed to answer my question. Why should the town help you come in first place? What

value

does our win have when you have already won by doing what you two have done today?

I already answered that.

I haven't won yet. I have to profess my love as a night action. Once we win, the town winning will obviously not have any value to us. But us winning does have valule to the town. The town has nothing to lose and everything to gain by allowing us to meet our win condition.

[Thor665]

@Thor:

In regards to your question about Death Ray accuracy; yes the PM told me there could be accuracy issues.

Okay, but you're going on a presumption that your death ray effect zapped Doombunny because Monkey targeted Doombunny. This then seems like if we let Monkey target you that we do not get a Vig effect out of you unless for some reason you self-vig, yes?

Also, Monkey was asked for his top suspects, but no one asked you. Since I hate the thought of you being left out, could you please clarify your top 2-3 suspects at the moment?

@Monkey - it has been argued that you are scum (Hero) and that you have lied about your role claim and win condition. Is this true? If so, can you tell us any remaining partner's name(s)?

[MonkeyMan576]

@Thor:

In regards to your question about Death Ray accuracy; yes the PM told me there could be accuracy issues.

Okay, but you're going on a presumption that your death ray effect zapped Doombunny because Monkey targeted Doombunny. This then seems like if we let Monkey target you that we do not get a Vig effect out of you unless for some reason you self-vig, yes?

Also, Monkey was asked for his top suspects, but no one asked you. Since I hate the thought of you being left out, could you please clarify your top 2-3 suspects at the moment?

@Monkey - it has been argued that you are scum (Hero) and that you have lied about your role claim and win condition. Is this true? If so, can you tell us any remaining partner's name(s)?

I don't have any partners, and I'm not scum. I win with the town unless I meet my win condition. My roleclaim is truthful.

[Riceballtail]

@Tim: From D1

extreme active lurkership (it's totally the most reliable scumtell out there imo)

Wagon hopping is a far better scumtell. Like the kind you've been doing all game. 4 votes in 7 posts, three of which were on the largest or soon to be largest wagon.

So that's two scum caught.

[MonkeyMan576]

I think Thor and Riceballtail are probably on opposite sides, I'm just not sure which is which.

[McGriddle]

I know thors playstyle, riceball is scum.

[Riceballtail]

I know thors playstyle, riceball is scum.

Well, I'm convinced.

[semioldguy]

@sog - can you summarize the playstyle and usefulness of any two players, in-depth, at least a paragraph given to each? I dont not care who, just pick any two. Do not concern yourself with the whys of my question, I am simply curious and would like your analysis.

Riceballtail is concise and not directly upfront. Other players are mistaking this for scummy when I don't think it is in this case. Riceballtail's play here has been typical with my past experience in other games with him and the concision is not an alignment indicator. He isn't useless, when he notices reads he provides them and there is sound reasoning behind it even if it is not greatly detailed it is still there. I'd lean slightly town on Riceballtail.

I've played with MonkeyMan576 twice before and found him scummy both times (Once he was, and the other time he was not). I have picked up a feeling of self-preservation from him in both games which has led me to scummy reads. I tried ignoring that fact this game and trying to look for other indicators. I would not have put it past MonkeyMan576 to be a power role at the end of day one, but obviously didn't want to mention that. However, he claimed a role that has a win condition aside from the town and that isn't something I can trust. Knowing that he has a win condition aside from the town makes him more useless as nothing he says can be taken at face value. His is publicly aiming for a win outside of the town win condition and I don't see how that is useful.

[Timeater]

@Timeater: All wins are equal; you don't win less if other people win. Is there any other reason then winning less you don't like the plan I laid out?

Says who?

Am I just supposed to accept the wine you are placing in front of me and drink without a care in the world?

[MonkeyMan576]

@sog - can you summarize the playstyle and usefulness of any two players, in-depth, at least a paragraph given to each? I dont not care who, just pick any two. Do not concern yourself with the whys of my question, I am simply curious and would like your analysis.

Riceballtail is concise and not directly upfront. Other players are mistaking this for scummy when I don't think it is in this case. Riceballtail's play here has been typical with my past experience in other games with him and the concision is not an alignment indicator. He isn't useless, when he notices reads he provides them and there is sound reasoning behind it even if it is not greatly detailed it is still there. I'd lean slightly town on Riceballtail.

I've played with MonkeyMan576 twice before and found him scummy both times (Once he was, and the other time he was not). I have picked up a feeling of self-preservation from him in both games which has led me to scummy reads. I tried ignoring that fact this game and trying to look for other indicators. I would not have put it past MonkeyMan576 to be a power role at the end of day one, but obviously didn't want to mention that. However, he claimed a role that has a win condition aside from the town and that isn't something I can trust. Knowing that he has a win condition aside from the town makes him more useless as nothing he says can be taken at face value. His is publicly aiming for a win outside of the town win condition and I don't see how that is useful.

The point isn't weather letting me win is "useful", it's weather letting me win is harmful. Lynching me or my partner not only lynches a townie, but wastes a day in trying to lynch scum. There's really nothing to be gained by lynching one of us just because we're supposedly not "useful"(which is not true). You should be worrying about the scum.

[MonkeyMan576]

@sog - can you summarize the playstyle and usefulness of any two players, in-depth, at least a paragraph given to each? I dont not care who, just pick any two. Do not concern yourself with the whys of my question, I am simply curious and would like your analysis.

Riceballtail is concise and not directly upfront. Other players are mistaking this for scummy when I don't think it is in this case. Riceballtail's play here has been typical with my past experience in other games with him and the concision is not an alignment indicator. He isn't useless, when he notices reads he provides them and there is sound reasoning behind it even if it is not greatly detailed it is still there. I'd lean slightly town on Riceballtail.

I've played with MonkeyMan576 twice before and found him scummy both times (Once he was, and the other time he was not). I have picked up a feeling of self-preservation from him in both games which has led me to scummy reads. I tried ignoring that fact this game and trying to look for other indicators. I would not have put it past MonkeyMan576 to be a power role at the end of day one, but obviously didn't want to mention that. However, he claimed a role that has a win condition aside from the town and that isn't something I can trust. Knowing that he has a win condition aside from the town makes him more useless as nothing he says can be taken at face value. His is publicly aiming for a win outside of the town win condition and I don't see how that is useful.

The point isn't weather letting me win is "useful", it's weather letting me win is harmful. Lynching me or my partner not only lynches a townie, but wastes a day in trying to lynch scum. There's really nothing to be gained by lynching one of us just because we're supposedly not "useful"(which is not true). You should be worrying about the scum.

[semioldguy]

I'd argue that letting you win as you describe is harmful. Additionally, there is no assurance that you win how you say you do and that is doesn't negatively affect the town.

Even if what you say is completely true, which I doubt, letting you win is worse than a mislynch since it removes two town players from the game. If you are town, whether you are lynched or removed from the game by some other win condition, you are still leaving the game. We are still down a player. However, if we lynch you instead of letting you win, not only do we ensure that you aren't betraying us, but if TheButtonmen is a vigilante we don't lose a power role in the process by not lynching you and letting you take him as well.

So if we lynch you and you are scum, that's good. If you are telling the truth and are town, it doesn't seem to do more harm to lynch you. It actually provides an extra game day.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'd argue that letting you win as you describe is harmful. Additionally, there is no assurance that you win how you say you do and that is doesn't negatively affect the town.

Even if what you say is completely true, which I doubt, letting you win is worse than a mislynch since it removes two town players from the game. If you are town, whether you are lynched or removed from the game by some other win condition, you are still leaving the game. We are still down a player. However, if we lynch you instead of letting you win, not only do we ensure that you aren't betraying us, but if TheButtonmen is a vigilante we don't lose a power role in the process by not lynching you and letting you take him as well.

So if we lynch you and you are scum, that's good. If you are telling the truth and are town, it doesn't seem to do more harm to lynch you. It actually provides an extra game day.

Your tone is not pro-town. You are using terminology like if we are "useful" and "doesn't do more harm" to lynch. You do not seem focused on getting scum, and you're making things a lot more complicated than they are, trying to confuse the town. You have not explained how us leaving the game would be betraying the town, because it wouldn't. We would be confirmed townies, as I said before, and you would have two less players to worry about. The goal of any mafia game for the town(besides lynching scum) should be to have as many confirmed townies as possible. It's fine if you don't trust us, but there's really no logic in lynching us today. The logical thing to do is to let us try to meet our win condition tonight, and then if it doesn't work you would have reason to assume we are lying, not right now.

[Timeater]

I'd argue that letting you win as you describe is harmful. Additionally, there is no assurance that you win how you say you do and that is doesn't negatively affect the town.

Even if what you say is completely true, which I doubt, letting you win is worse than a mislynch since it removes two town players from the game. If you are town, whether you are lynched or removed from the game by some other win condition, you are still leaving the game. We are still down a player. However, if we lynch you instead of letting you win, not only do we ensure that you aren't betraying us, but if TheButtonmen is a vigilante we don't lose a power role in the process by not lynching you and letting you take him as well.

So if we lynch you and you are scum, that's good. If you are telling the truth and are town, it doesn't seem to do more harm to lynch you. It actually provides an extra game day.

I find myself in full agreement with this post.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'd argue that letting you win as you describe is harmful. Additionally, there is no assurance that you win how you say you do and that is doesn't negatively affect the town.

Even if what you say is completely true, which I doubt, letting you win is worse than a mislynch since it removes two town players from the game. If you are town, whether you are lynched or removed from the game by some other win condition, you are still leaving the game. We are still down a player. However, if we lynch you instead of letting you win, not only do we ensure that you aren't betraying us, but if TheButtonmen is a vigilante we don't lose a power role in the process by not lynching you and letting you take him as well.

So if we lynch you and you are scum, that's good. If you are telling the truth and are town, it doesn't seem to do more harm to lynch you. It actually provides an extra game day.

I find myself in full agreement with this post.

Also, it doesn't make sense that you are basing a MM lynch on the premise that Button is town and I am scum. Logic dictates that we are both town or both scum. If we are both town then you shouldn't be lynching me because I am town. If we are both scum you shouldn't be operating on the premise that button is a vigilante.