Newbie 960 - Game Over

[NomDePlume]

Yay we're off!

Feel free to abbreviate me to NDP or Nom as you like

Vote WolfRamnHart

Because he was in my last game.

[NomDePlume]

also

vote NDP

Blatant OMGUS vote against the person that voted first, and it was against me off all people!

Look at that! Shocking. He admits his OMGUS: I rest my case, we got him boys .

Ren got a vote for us?

Andrew94: welcome, first game of mafia or just first game on this site?

[NomDePlume]

We would be more suspicious of the OMGUS if it weren't for the RVS.
We will vote as soon as we find something worth voting someone for.

Why do you need something worth voting someone for to vote in the RVS? Is the RVS something you aren't willing to participate in?

UNVOTE
VOTE: REN

[NomDePlume]

Not impressed much by Ren's attack on Andrew, seems scummy to me. I'll let Andrew defend himself before I say why.

Ren your stance on RVS seems contradictory to me: you say the votes are useless and carry no weight but then you say RVS has uses and attempt to interpret the votes that have occured. Which is it: RVS votes are useless or RVS votes are useful and can potentially carry information?

If the first post and vote is scummy becomes an accepted meme then these games sure will be difficult to get going!

[NomDePlume]

Not contradictory. There is information to be gained from the votes or attempted to be interpreted yet at the same time an RVS vote has no weight as in there is no element of pressure especially since pretty much all RVS will be removed unless a better reason to leave your vote on someone happened to arise.

I mean who would possibly think they might be in any kind of danger if someone votes for them because because you were in their last game, because of your avatar, or because their calc told them to?

why the reluctance to cast an RVS vote then?

---
Vote Count
Day 1; 9 alive, 5 to lynch

NomDePlume (2) - Kenman, wolframnhart
andrew94 (2) - Titiboo, Ren
Ren (1) - NomDePlume
mb53 - Equinox
Kenman - Memnon

Yet to vote (2) - andrew94, mb53

[NomDePlume]

"yet at the same time an RVS vote has no weight as in there is no element of pressure"
Just look at the effect of Titiboo's vote on Andrew94 for his lack of avatar and compare it to Andrew94's reaction to our vote. Notice a difference?

Yes. How is that an answer to my question?

[NomDePlume]

So essentially you are saying RVS votes work as a way of getting us started by providing us with information and initiating a talking point despite being a bit silly but you're not going to participate by contributing one. You are however happy to draw conclusions from other peoples RVS votes?

[NomDePlume]

The reason to ask your experience is not to "own" you but to help understand why you do things. Newbies can make mistakes in all innocence that were they done by an experienced player would be considered definitely scummy.

For instance: "what is your role ren" is an interesting question but one that ren shouldn't answer. Why do you ask the question?

[NomDePlume]

Why should we lynch andrew "right now"? A quick lynch is a terrible idea.

I'm only in favour of policy lynches as a last resort and I hardly think we are there yet, plenty of time to find a better reason for a lynch - such as someone advocating a quick lynch.

[NomDePlume]

On inconsistency being a scumtell I have my doubts. I don't claim to know what are reliable scumtells and what are not but my experience of three games has inconsistency as an unreliable tell. In my first game a player was inconsistent, he was lynched and flipped scum. So thinking it a good tell in my next game as a townie I attacked inconsistency and found three inconsistent townies and the two scum weren't inconsistent in the slightest. In my third game as scum I used inconsistency twice to have two townies lynched.

Townies are inconsistent because they make mistakes or they change their minds, scum are inconsistent because they make mistakes or they have something to hide. Motive and circumstance of the inconsistency seem important to me. Why would scum lie or be inconsistent about their mafia experience: surely only to downplay their experience in order to lie low or pull off a tactical coup their "level" of experience would be unlikely to use? In my second game the scum lied saying it was his first game, he was trying to carry off a fake-cop claim so he had a motive to conceal his experience. Why would a townie lie or be inconsistent about their mafia experience: maybe because they are nervous that their "experience" will bring expectation they are worried of living up to, or maybe they don't want to be seen as a newbie even if they are one for some perception of a stigma?

Andrew has been inconsistent but I don't see any scummy motivation behind it. It looks to me like he has just started the game with some misconceptions of how he should act, made some ambiguous statements, got flustered and then just started rambling. It doesn't look to me like he is concealing his expertise, so

what is his scummy motivation behind his inconsistency?

I'd like everyone on his wagon to answer that question because I think these are easy attacks on an easy target and I think there's some scum hoping for a quick and easy lynch.

[NomDePlume]

I'm here just been tied up with work. Will post tomorrow.

[NomDePlume]

Let's take a look at Titiboo. Isolate Titiboo by changing the drop-down at the bottom of the page from "all users" to "Titiboo" then press <go>:

And andrew, you definitely want as much activity as possible if you're town. It lets you get reads on people, which can only be a good thing.

This is the only part of any of his very few posts that could be described "content" not "noise". He tells us that activity is what you want if you're town, yet his own activity is nearly zero: five posts of nothing, one vote that's on the easy target with no better reasoning that it's where he feels comfortable. He's not town by his own evaluation surely? That only leaves scum. He doesn't answer my request to explain what Andrew's scummy intentions are.

Okay, I don't think I ever popped in recently, but I just happened to randomly vote someone I'm comfortable keeping my vote on for now. So I'm gonna keep my vote on andrew94 for a while, until someone else comes up.

first part: "Okay, I don't think I ever popped in recently" = I'm lurking but just enough not seem active
second part: "but I just happened to randomly vote someone I'm comfortable keeping my vote on for now." = hey I luckily bagged number one slot on the easy lynch with my random vote, I'm not giving up my spot (number one spot looking much less scummy than later positions so a great place for scum to be)
third part: "So I'm gonna keep my vote on andrew94 for a while, until someone else comes up" = I'm not giving any reasons, I'm not quizzing Andrew at all, I'm not scum-hunting anywhere else you lot can do that for me - I'm staying on my good spot unless it's not going to a lynch and someone finds me a better one.

UNVOTE
VOTE: TITIBOO

@Memnon: talk me through this, you think Andrew is town but want to lynch him anyway? Having said earlier "We're trying to find scum" that's a strange position to take. As to policy lynching Andrew I'm against it. I don't have a scum read on him and he is provoking plenty of discussion - in fact the game is revolving around him. He's posting plenty and people's reactions to him are very interesting, I think we should keep him.

@MOD:

I don't see a time deadline, does this game operate without one?

[NomDePlume]

EBWOP: second quote is ISO #4, and "I'm lurking but just enough not seem active " doesn't make sense what I meant to say was: "I'm lurking but posting just often enough to seem active"

[NomDePlume]

@Memnon: talk me through this, you think Andrew is town but want to lynch him anyway? Having said earlier "We're trying to find scum" that's a strange position to take. As to policy lynching Andrew I'm against it. I don't have a scum read on him and he is provoking plenty of discussion - in fact the game is revolving around him. He's posting plenty and people's reactions to him are very interesting, I think we should keep him.

You kind of left it out so thought it would be worth pointing it out but what he said was, "We're trying to find scum, not prevent innocent townies from being lynched." Any reason in particular for cutting his sentence in half? It's not such a strange position to take considering the whole sentence.

Just trying to keep the point short and succint. Memnon said he thought Andrew is town, our objective is to lynch scum not lynch anti-town townies.

[NomDePlume]

Game-wise, I feel this serial questioning of andrew94 is distracting, and given the level of participation, it's alienating other players. We can always lynch him later if we feel he's acting like scum. In the meantime, I'd like to move on. We'll get better results faster that way.

I was going to post something along these lines, I agree with this. If you all continue to bombard Andrew with questions to the exclusion of looking at anyone else we'll end up lynching Andrew simply because we don't have another option - not because he's the best choice.

It seems like the game is played differently on the other sites Andrew has frequented, you have pointed out the difference but further pressing the issue seems pointless to me.

[NomDePlume]

I agree we need to kick start this somehow but until replacements for three positions arrive it's going to be difficult. Some players just haven't contributed enough for any sort of read: Wolf for instance has done some IC duty but really hasn't given us any clues one way or the other.

My case against Titiboo looks a bit thinner with him being replaced: a lack of activity due to him flaking is just as likely as scummy lurking. I still don't like how he used his RVS to lazily stick on Andrew whilst not contributing anything, I think that really scummy - an attempt to get early position on an easy lynch.

My other suspect would be Ren. The whole tunneling on Andrew to the exclusion of everyone else has been hampering us, when I asked for an explanation of Andrew's scummy intentions he unvoted without explaining them but then continued the one-dimensional attack.

[NomDePlume]

Well it's a shame Titiboo is AWOL, I sure was hoping to see some more stuff out of that spot. Since a vote there is currently redundant:

Unvote

I think Ren is likely to return, seems like a active enough player to not be flaking. I want to know why Ren has lied about age, especially after telling Andrew that "A townie has no reason to lie about anything". Curious thing to lie about:

Vote Ren

Welcome to the replacements. Hi IAI: not quite the shock and awe post blitzkreig of our last game but nice to see you!

[NomDePlume]

@ NDP, please let us know if Ren is your top choice for a lynch at this time. Looked more like a pressure vote when you made it.

Ren is my top choice for lynch:

1) Ren's attack on Andrew seemed just the sort of scumhunting scum would do,
2) Ren unvoted straight after I called the wagon scummy,
3) Ren continued to tunnel Andrew which was detrimental to the town.

I think Ren's actions have been the most scummy.


Reading Equinox I think I'm seeing town mentality.


I'm less keen on Memnon. He seemed at first reluctant then uncertain how to answer the cases against him. That seemed pretty scummy to me: if you're town you know the case is wrong and should have little problem explaining your thoughts and motivations behind the actions that others see as scummy. It's scum that have problems answering cases because they know the case is frequently correct and they have to formulate some cobblers to justify themselves. Town has the power of righteousness, scum the doubt of guilt.

It's unfortunate everytime I vote someone they abscond... I'll stick with my vote for now but I am conscious of the deadline.

@Equinox: I checked Ren's ISO in the other thread, only took a second or two.

[NomDePlume]

Andrew: the vote needs to be formatted correctly to be counted, ie bolded and in the form

vote: player

see rules in post #1

nothing sinister

[NomDePlume]

If Ren had lied, it would have been scummy. The point I was trying to make was

Ren was not lying

.

It's not for you to make Ren's defense, Ren should do that herself. How do you know Ren was not lying? DID seems a convenient excuse for Ren to contradict herself with no repercussions, is that acceptable to you?

[NomDePlume]

NDP because he seems to contribute a bit, then fade back into the shadows for a while. He hasn't done anything actually scummy, but I find this behaviour a bit disconcerting.

Yes, I've been a bit patchy on participation: sometimes it's RL stuff like work but mostly this week it's been weather related... the UK has been quite sunny and warm (not something to be taken for granted) so mafia has taken a back seat.

IAI exhibited his top two fetish in my last game when he was town, so I expect he uses it in every game and isn't alignment dependent.

[NomDePlume]

This is what I think so far.

Andrew came in and acted erratically enough to generate an early wagon on himself. The case seemed pretty rubbish to me and the wagon looked scummy. The wagon dissolved pretty quickly and now a strange general consensus seems to exist that Andrew is town. There were four people on the wagon that I can recall, in order: Titiboo (an RVS vote subsequently reaffirmed), Ren, Mb53 (ToG) and Memnon.

I made cases against Titiboo and Ren both of whom subsequently flaked destroying any pressure I could exert. This is very annoying and disheartening to me and made me less interested in the game.

A reasonable case against Memnon is put forward by a couple of people which he has made insufficient effort to answer. He hasn't changed the mind of anyone on his wagon and appears to have given up trying. Memnon's wagon seems the more likely to succeed than Ren's at the moment: I'm not sure how to push a case against someone who just got replaced, Andrew doesn't give very good reasoning for his OMGUS vote and I think Memnon is voting for what he thinks is the most likely lynch that isn't him. Memnon picks his top two and then votes for someone not in his top two.

My contributions have been patchy because I'm lazy, it's been nice weather for gardening and this day feels like it's dragging on a bit - mostly due to selfish people quitting [/rant]

Welcome to the replacements, ImKingDavid perhaps you could take a look at my case on Ren and comment on it.

[NomDePlume]

We're trying to find scum, not prevent innocent townies from being lynched

. That is our main focus. Obviously we don't want to lynch an innocent townie, but scumhunting comes first.

Cuz hes town

but hes acting pretty anti-town so he is more of a hindrance to the town than a help. Therefore we policy lynch him.

I think Memnon is voting for what he thinks is the most likely lynch that isn't him.

Yep. I will admit to this

. Although now that the deadline has changed I may yet change my mind.

Memnon: Neither of your votes so far have conformed to your early mission statement. Your first was for someone you thought town, the second is intended to prevent an innocent townie from being lynched ie you (I'm not saying you are, I'm just using your argument). Please give us a vote for someone you think is scum - not for any other reason.

I thought I had some clarity of thought but this thread has suddenly got very confusing. I have some time for a good read tomorrow, I'll post more then.

[NomDePlume]

Warning: long post. Lots of stuff from Equinox to respond to and I'd hate to miss any of it. Cliff notes at the end.

Ren's observation that both Kenman and NomDePlume were quick to post in the thread is interesting. It's a weak tell at best until we get other evidence that they are scummy. For the moment, I don't feel that two SEs would be that eager to start distancing each other so early.

Seriously? I think "quick to post" is a rubbish tell of anything. My last game had finished a few days earlier and I was keen to get started on a new one. Like in alot of things (playing the trumpet, learning German, getting super fit, working hard, being a good husband) I tend to show early enthusiasm which fades...

I think there's something wrong with all the scum tells people are getting from andrew94. As NomDePlume stated previously, the andrew94 wagon at the time was a really easy one to join, and it was also very easy to point out andrew94's hesitation and inconsistencies as role-related.

All right, this is just my paranoia talking, but I think I need to keep an eye on NomDePlume. It's highly likely that his defense of andrew94 is town-motivated, but I have also seen scum defend scummy townies to earn town credential. The fact that scum already know who is town makes this very easy to do. I'll get back to this at some point, as I've seen him pop in and out.

I thought there was something wrong with the scum tells too - as I pointed out in my post.

Andrew's play somewhat reminds me of a player NDP and i just got done playing with, a very scummy townie named Donny

This was in newbie #924. I read Donny as town in that game (I was town) and Andrew immediately struck me as very similar in this one. The scum in that game, TaylorSwift, did precisely this: "scum defend scummy townies to earn town credential". Wolf (and IAI) was in that game and he was in this one at this point so blatantly performing this "trick" were I scum would have been stupid.

Yes, scum hunting comes first, but do not do that at the expense of innocents. Chances are we are going to lynch a townie today; it's probability. However, if someone is pushing a lynch on someone you think is innocent, you should be defending that townie as well as pushing for someone you believe to be scummy. It's better to lynch scum, after all.

So I defended Andrew, someone I thought was town and put a case on Ren someone I think is scum.

I like NomDePlume's case against Titiboo. It's the first, plus points for that. I also like the questions he's asking Memnon here regarding the policy lynch he's pushing.

Again, NomDePlume comes to andrew94's defense. Actually, it's not really a "defense," but more like something a "good player" would say in an effort to shift attention off a distraction. The problem I see here is NomDePlume makes no actual effort to do so; he merely nods. Going out on a limb here, ScumDePlume does not want to be the one to lead. Rather, he waits for town to walk themselves to the next target, and he will follow them or stop them for town cred.

These two points seem to directly contradict each other. I encouraged people to not tunnel on Andrew, I had just made a case on someone else (Titiboo) and I was questioning Memnon. What more do you think I should be doing to get them to move on? I wasn't waiting for the town to walk themselves to another target I was pointing one out and questioning another.

Please show me where I have followed someone else

.

NomDePlume acknowledges Titiboo and wolframnhart have been difficult to read due to lack of content, and he accuses Ren of distracting tunneling. I don't have a problem with this, really, since there wasn't much to work with at this point in the game thanks to all the theory and the andrew94 tunnels. It's just that I'm still uncomfortable with NomDePlume...

You are a bit ambiguous here so I don't know what you mean. You don't have a problem with my accusing Ren of tunneling or you don't have a problem with Ren tunneling?

NomDePlume uses ToG's meta read of Ren to vote Ren. I know I am being a hypocrite, but this is some nice piggy backing behavior here. Considering his odd "defense" of andrew94 and his vague movements toward pro-town statements, I'm getting more and more comfortable with calling for his lynch.

In my previous post #165 (which was before ToG's post about Ren's lie) I had named Ren as my second suspect after Titiboo. Titiboo had flaked and ToG had pointed out Ren's lie, a vote was certainly in order. I don't see it as piggy backing - I showed my suspicion first. Doesn't it seem weird for you to find a scum tell in something that you say you have done yourself? How good a tell does that make it?

NomDePlume's case on Ren is... interesting. I disagree with his first point; really, andrew94's responses were practically

begging

for more questions, and Ren delivered. It was not so much scum hunting but more of a "You are not answering my questions and it's frustrating me" interrogation. I like his second point, since Ren's unvote really does appear that way.

I still like my case. When I was scum in newbie #921 (I replaced in) it was exactly the sort of scumhunting I did. Find a poor, inconsistent townie and get them strung up - I mean they look scummy right? Well at least on the surface... That is what I think Ren was doing. The unvote and totally ignoring my direct question did it for me.

I never thought I'd say this, but his defense of my posts are giving me the same vibe as his defense of andrew94. He doesn't explain his "town mentality" position further, which makes it seem as though he actually knows I am town and is trying to get me to sway to his side... That's kind of scary to me. I apologize if you honestly do believe I am town, but I've learned not to automatically trust people who appear to trust me for no apparent reason.

I don't normally explain my town reads unless I'm challenged on them, I don't like telling people what I find townie because it's probably quite easy to fake. I wouldn't have mentioned my read except that you were a topic of conversation at that point and I felt I should comment. It was interesting that ToG performed an about-face after you had posted and I had declared my read. Again it's not exactly me following other people, is it?

Anyway why did I have a town read on you?

I think I know what's getting me angry in this game. It's all certainties and absolutes in here. Black or white. No, you can't speculate in the grey because that's scummy. No, you can't wait for the color to change because that's scummy.

I'm standing in a grey pool of paint. I feel like I have to either get my prints all over the brand new white paint job on the floor, or I have to continue sitting there in that grey area. I refuse to make up cases against town reads just because a few people are angry that I won't do it. Therefore, I will continue to stand in that grey area until I find that nook I missed, even if that gets me lynched. A town read cannot be a scum read.

It's frustrating me to no end that I can't tell if all this pressure is scummy or if I'm just getting an OMGUS reaction. It's frustrating me to no end that the only way I know how to make my position on things any less ambiguous is blocked.

Ugh. I'm too emotional at the moment. I'll come back in a bit once I calm down and can think more rationally. I don't think "a bit" will kill anyone.

This is just the sort of stuff I feel and the kind of rubbish I post when I'm town. That's what I mean when I say town mentality. I think it might be easy to fake this stuff so I tried ISOing you in a few games to see if it is a repeat but I couldn't see it. Mind you I was too lazy and blurry eyed after a couple of games to read it all, too many posts in too many games...

NomDePlume doesn't have an actual position regarding Memnon, which is very much noted. Bad luck that both Ren and Titiboo flaked. He seems to think andrew94 is town, and from his posts and the wording here, I gather he believed that from the beginning...

I did have a position on Memnon, it was in my previous post #249. My first comment on my read of Andrew was: I don't have a scum read on him. The more I saw scummy attacks on him and read his posts the more confident I was in having a town read. But I'm only right about as much as any other newish player so I'm not promising anything.

Unvote, Vote: NomDePlume

NomDePlume's defense of andrew94 suggests that he possesses privileged information, and his defense of Equinox appears to be an attempt to gain her trust for later stages of the game as well as town credential in the event of a mislynch. His agreement with Equinox that andrew94's interrogation is distracting adds nothing to the game, and he made no effort to move the game away from andrew94 at any point.

We don't know Andrew's alignment yet so saying I possess privileged information about it seems premature to me - and it seems to be just because I held a different view from yours. I posted exactly why I had the read at the time - do you think it was poor reasoning on my part? Referring to yourself in the third person is a bit odd, has Ren rubbed off on you? Agreeing with someone's point sometimes does adds something, it reinforces it. What is wrong with agreeing with someone? I had made an effort to move the game away from Andrew: I had posted a Titiboo case and started questioning Memnon, then I requested people to stop tunneling Andrew.

Many of these points would have been clear if you did an ISO on me, you accuse me of doing things which are clearly not the case from previous posts.

If you read this far well done, you deserve a break. Go to the fridge and crack open a beer - tell whomever from me you deserve it.

Cliff notes

: case rebutted, move on to the post after this.

[NomDePlume]

Memnon please claim.

[NomDePlume]

I can't believe lynching a cop-claim is our best move, we need to agree on another lynch quickly. I'm still for a Ren/IKD lynch which was a second choice for a few people, if that's not of interest to people they need to vote somewhere else promptly.

I'm not a cop.

[NomDePlume]

Ugh, what a mess.

I've seen people using IKD's tone before and they flip town...

UNVOTE: ImKingDavid

Obviously we need a lynch so I'll revert if necessary before the deadline. Has anybody got an alternative?

[NomDePlume]

EDIT BY WAY OF PREVIEW: Do

you

have an alternative Nom?

At the moment no-one leaps out at me. Andrew's claim struck me the same as you but we can consider that tomorrow I think. Pushing someone else to L-1 doesn't seem to have much risk anymore seeing as claims to both roles have already been made. I'm on London time so I don't have time tonight to read it all through again.

[NomDePlume]

Ok, I'm here and we need to get a lynch sorted pronto. Out of IKD and Equinox I prefer IKD as the lynch.
Equinox has been incredibly indecisive and uncommital in her suspicions but it has been a hard first day and some of her stuff I thought was town talk. I suspected Ren strongly and nothing IKD has said has me reading him as town - apart from that "lynch me now" post which could just be as he and IAI say, a cool scum.

VOTE: ImKingDavid