Newbie 958 ~Game over!

[brianj]

# About

Leech

my point still stands. I cannot understand why people do not see him as suspicious just for the virtue of his first post. It was an massive fluff only consisting of him pointing out obvious newbie mistake and opinions, and is completely devoid of his personal opinions. This is a newbie game so I understand that some might feel the need to bring all of such things into light for every Townie to see, but what I do not like is how he became automatically classified as "neutral" because of that post while other lurkers like Alta and remouk - who thus far has revealed more opinions about other players than Leech - got severally questioned.

Scummy

# Oh,

Alta

. What do I make of you? While remouk has at least risen up against Incognito, Alta continues to be lurkish and incoherent as ever. At his first vote he random votes remouk while saying he've "always disliked RVS. I prefer to work off of evidence and facts but I guess the whole point of RVS is so we can start to get facts." When I question him about it he once again emphasizes it was random vote and that he "really don't like RVS but their isn't any other good way to start". What? Note that my question he replied to was posed in form of RQS- if you really don't like random voting and wants to get information, then why the hell didn't you began the game with RQS instead? In fact he never attempts to get information from other people and spends all of his meager post repling to other people.

Speaking about his posts, can you find a common theme?

@ThatTumbleweed

I don't think there is enough evidence to really go after remouk at this point.

It just doesn't seem very weird to me for him to not be sure about anything. If he is Town then he wouldn't have any idea about who is scum and who isn't

@LordChronos

Yeah, I was thinking about that, however my vote was just random while ThatTumbleweed's vote was a far more serious accusation.

Anyway I guess that Remouk's actions are pretty suspicious but I don't know if I would consider them enough to lynch him.

Sorry for not posting in so long. I've been busy but i'll try to post more oftean.

Anyway I currently don't really know who is scum.

Everyone is a little bit suspicious but a prime suspect to me is remouk. However despite his scummy behavior I am not convinved he is Mafia.

I think that right now the best thing we can do is keep discussing.

@Incognito

Nothing's changed I always found Remouk scummy I just don't think that his actions are enough to condemn him.

I mean God, one would be hard-pressed to make so many posts stating the same thing over and over. Lot of things happened since he has first posted, lots of arguments and accusations being thrown around, yet he dogmatically restates this single opinion without commenting on any of those! And is it me or is Alta wording his posts in a way that his suspicion toward remouk seem to be increasing progressively (from "not enough evidence" -> "somewhat suspicious" -> "prime suspect ... not convinced he is Mafia" -> "always found Remouk scummy") though from his last post suggests that he found remouk always scummy? Doesn't matter at all though; he never forgets to add that there are insuefficient evidence in what I suppose is piss-poor attempt to rid himself of responsibility when remouk lynch goes wrong.

SCUMMY

# I am getting normal Townie vibes from

remouk

rather than scummy ones, though I admit this opinion could be prejudiced since I don't like how almost everybody in town seem to have fos'd remouk in someway or another in the game. RNG use is a null tell; scum may do it, Townies frequently do so as well. And I am pretty satisfied that he threw out his accusation against Incognito spite of his weak reasoning, because to my knowledge Incognito was not particularly bearing down on remouk at the moment. Voting an IC first can attract quite a bit of attention, so if remouk keeps his current level of activity and content shown in his sixth and second post I'll be pretty satisfied.

Neutral

remouk, regards to

Anyway, I do think that a non-explained vote is scummy (even if good town player already did it), because it's far easier to explain a vote after everyone talked about it, than before. And you can always use the "I wanted to put pressure on him" backdoor.

it depends on the content. I think when 'good' scum does something that is suspicious, there must be something in that action that results in equally beneficial pay-off to the scum side. Why I find Incognito's Earlder1 vote suspicious is because that, well, there was nothing much to be gained. No one was going to gather and lynch Earlder1 because two unexplained votes were placed upon him (or at least I have that much faith in the town). How much that unexplained vote increases likelihood of the target being lynched is pretty good indication of it's scumminess. Hell, I had two separate games off-Mafiascum where someone just randomly voted, and one case turned out to be Cop and another case turned out to be trap set by masons to draw out scum.

# I'll complete my analysis of

Incognito

since I mentioned his RV in my advice to remouk as well. Honestly his RV is useless- since I assume he uses "Incog Theory" everytime in beginning of the game regardless of his alignment. Honestly I feel his use of theory is as equally damaging as people who use random number generators, but oh well. He is completely neutral to me- he has done well to draw out conversations from other people, but to my belief he also never commited to his opinion about other peoples? I also note his writing is very friendly and gentlemanly, if you understand what I am saying. Helps other people to view him more favourably though I suppose it could just be him being an IC.

Neutral

#

Earlder1

, I am pleased to see detailed analysis coming from you. Let me refute some points in your argument though:

brianj- I'm a bit weary about his play. As I'm sure will be agreed with, I was an easy target because my mistaken comments. In post 103, he also seems to be trying a bit hard to appease everybody. He says he agrees with both sides and fails to really have an opinion on anyone but myself. I'd like to see some more content from him, but for now he reads slightly scummy.

The Earlder1's accusation against me consists of three points:
1) Voting for an easy target.
2) Agreeing with both sides; I assume remouk and Incognito.
3) Fails to have an opinion on anyone but myself.

* This is the post in question.

OMG Earlder1 scum.

Unvote, Vote: Earlder1

Note the timing of the vote. There was still not an significant accusation present yet, and I had been the one to post this

right after

Earlder1 posted said-incriminating comments. I am highly curious how I knew other people were going to misunderstand your comments; nobody seem to have misunderstood your comment when you said exactly the same thing in previous game of yours. In fact, what incriminating comments? There are none in the post that led to my vote. People found you scummy because of your over-reaction, and your anti-town philosophy of deliberately trying to look scummy. Your reaction to my vote caused you to be easy target, whenceupon you reply I voted because you were an easy target? How does THAT work?

* I fail to understand which part of my post shows me supporting remouk. In post #103 I clearly state that there was no anti-town intent on Incognito's vote, which refutes the very meat of remouk's accusation itself. I did speak positively about remouk, but after rereading it should be clear that I was happy about remouk coming out of his hiatus to take serious stance, not upon the validity of remouk's argument itself. Also can you give me examples on where I try to appease everybody? I truly have no idea about this.

* You apparently missed my opinion toward you, and this.

One more thing:

Earlder1 (3) - brianj, Incognito, LordChronos

[So in recap, I have prepared the following list in terms of how scummy I think everyone is, 1 being most scummy.
1. Brianj
2. Lord Chronos
2. Alta
2. Remouk
5. Incog

Do I smell an OMGUS? Either way my opinion on him still stands.

Scummy.

Those five are the individuals I have the strongest opinion about, I'll analyze remaining players (LordChronos, Coach Travis, ThatTumbleweed) later on. Actually I found them all personally unremarkable, but who knows what I can drag up when I actually start looking.

I think Earlder1 is likely to be scum, but I feel mafia much strongly from Alta's current behaviour, so:

Unvote, Vote: Alta

[brianj]

ummmm, is it me or is my analysis post not visible?

[ThatTumblweed]

I'm the towniest of townies, eh? I suppose I'm glad my exhibited behavior matches my role.

[ThatTumblweed]

I'm the towniest of townies, eh? I suppose I'm glad my exhibited behavior matches my role.

[Nikanor]

Vote Count 1.10

Earlder1 (2)

- Incognito, LordChronos

Alta (2)

- Coach Travis, brianj

remouk (1)

- Alta

Incognito (1)

- remouk

brianj (1)

- Earlder1

Not Voting (2)

- Leech, ThatTumblweed

With nine players alive, five votes are required to lynch.

Deadline falls on Saturday June 5 at 17:14 UTC.

Shadow Dancer replaces Alta. Thank you muchly!

[Shadow Dancer]

Original Roll String: 1d9

1 9-Sided Dice: (8) = 8

[Shadow Dancer]

Unvote. Vote remouk

Hi, every one.

I am reading the thread. Have some patience, please.

[Earlder1]

@brianj

Your initial vote against me was more of a random vote, and you admiteed this yourself. This initial random vote is not what I meant by myself being an easy target. I know you were the first to vote me, but you didn't believe I was scum until later. I don't think that because you voted for me first, you didn't choose me because I was an easy target.

Your post 103 is neutralish. You support Incog. You compliment Remouk's case. I guess these opinions are both fine, but there is nothign definite. You took two sides of an issue and looked positively on both of them. That's why it appears to me that you're trying to appease everyone.

I suppose my final point is refuted by your accusations against Alta, but it's a bit odd that this came only when prompted. I mention you don't have much of an opinion on anyone but me and your next substantial post is your analyses. It seems that you may just be trying to refute this claim about yourself. I don't know what to make of that.

LOL

Your case against Alta is decent and I can see some scummy elements in the way he is posting. It is a bit peculiar how his opinion of Remouk evolves throughout his posts, and then concludes with Remouk always appearing scummy. I'd like to see his defense, but I am getting a bit more of a scummy vibe from him after your analysis. My vote will stand for now, however, because I still see you as more scummy.

@Tumbleweed
So could you do something similar in terms of your analyses of all the players? I trust your opinion the most because you are the most confirmed town in my eyes.

[Earlder1]

Are you replacing Alta?

[LordChronos]

Totally agree with you about Leech, brian. Making one long post =/= being a townie, especially when that long post is followed by vanishing and not contributing whatsoever.

@Earlder

Why does me not doing anything that makes me seem scummy make me tied for number 2 on your suspect list?

@Coach Travis
I notice that most of your analysis talks about activity. Not scummy things in posts, activity. Is this because you don't think anyone has done scummy things?

[Earlder1]

@Lord Chronos

I have no real read on you so that is the category I put you in. The people I got a neutral vibe from were placed later on the list because they are more set in their place. The three people I placed in the 2 spot are those that I'm really not sue about and thus, are more likely to be scummy that the people I am getting a neutral read from. It's not that I think you're scummy, I just don't know how to classify you.

[LordChronos]

Sweet!

Hiya Shadow Dancer.

@Earlder

Since Incog and remouk are not everyone, why does brian saying that remouk's case is flawed but he welcomes the increase in activity from remouk mean that brian is trying to appease everyone?

You say that you have a neutral vibe (meaning you don't have a feeling toward town or scum) on later people in the list. Yet that is exactly what you said about me. Why the discrepancy?

[Shadow Dancer]

Are you replacing Alta?

Shadow Dancer replaces Alta. Thank you muchly!

l2r.

Hi, LC

Seems to be a noce game. No one screwed up so far, it seems to me, unusual for a newbie game. Gives me a good feeling. I am not through with reading, though.

[ThatTumblweed]

Sorry for the double post earlier, the site is giving me mad bugs. I'll start working on an analysis.

[ThatTumblweed]

Since all of the cool kids seems to be doing it, and Earlder1 requested that I do so, I present to the rest of you fine people my analysis of how I view each of the current players.

Earlder1: started out as being sort of playful, and then, perhaps thinking that the mood was a bit lighter than it actually was, made the avatar comment that started my suspicions as to his scumminess. I wouldn't have even known that it was considered scummy unless he hadn't pointed it out himself in the same post. To me it just seemed off topic, which is actually scummy when you're trying to figure out whodunnit. What was more scummy was how he reacted to brianj's voting after he made the comment. He seemed so surprised that anyone would use the scummy thing that he just did as a reason to vote for him at an early point in the game. But he continously claims that he is town, and bemoans his scummy appearance. I've been thinking that it could have been just the early plays that led me to read scum on him, but rereading the thread has given me a lot more solidity to my belief.

remouk: never really contributed much in the beginning, despite being asked and prompted several times by different players. He picked up in posting, but still stayed pretty neutral with what he said, in my opinion. I still read scum on this one.

Coach Travis: I get a decent town vibe from him. He started with analysis pretty early on, and seems to be actively scum hunting. He seems to think out his postings very well, which is a nulltell in my eyes.

Shadow Dancer: of course, with the newly swapped player, it's nearly impossible to have any sort of read. Alta was very wishy washy and didn't seem to have anything concrete to say. I'll reserve the right to come back and put in my two cents on our new addition once they've made enough posts to get a read from.

brianj: started out as very instagating and accusatory, but helped to get the provebial ball rolling. I get a pretty well defined protown read from him, as he shrewdly hunts scum and has very good arguments. I get a neutral to slight scum reading on how sharply he attacks other people.

LordChronos: starts out seeming very removed and distant. True to his signature, he seemed like a talking computer. He later starts contributing to the scum hunt in a way that gave me a protown read, seeming to not let anything slip by him. As such, I have a neutral read on him.

Leech: had a pretty late entry to the game, but came in strong. From the first post, gave me a strange, netural "voice from the sky" sort of reading. He seems very removed and observational, and has nothing to really base an opinion on. So few posts!

Incognito: even from the beginning, I read Incog as more of a very knowledgable and helpful member of the town. He helped to get the vote started using a theory that he came up with, which I consider better than using any sort of random guessing mechanism. As the game furthers, I think I feel a creeping suspicion about him, but I have absolutely no evidence to support it. I suppose it's how well he plays that has me reluctant to place any trust in him, despite the fact that I can't help but be swayed by the things that he says. '

So, in summation, my list from scummiest to least scummy goes (leaving out leech and ShadowDancer for lack of evidence) :
1. Earlder1
2. remouk
3. brianj
4. Incognito
5. Lord Chronos
6. Coach Travis

[Shadow Dancer]

OK, I'm through with reading. I'll try to give you some thoughts about what I can still remember right now. If some one is not mentioned it is most likely because I did not realize anything remarkalbe about them while skimming.

I like TTW so far.

I really did not like Earl openly admitting trying to seem scummy... But his explanation - as naive as believable as it was - gives me the feeling of an inexperienced player. Still: He's no newbie and should know better.

I find it really hard to file Inco... But that is normal with LCs, basically because it is hard to distiguish between their personal play style and their IC behaviour...
I do not like his not giving reasons and asking questions rather than sharing his own opinion, but that's just some people's play style, while in other cases it turned out to really be a scum indicator... Still: IGMEOY (always on ICs, any way)...

I think I need some ISO reading to find the nuances of other players...

[ThatTumblweed]

Crap, forgot to add on to the end of this one,

vote: Earlder1

[Coach Travis]

@LC:I have mentioned scummy things as well. For example, my whole case on Alta wasn't really about lack of activity, as it was that he was saying he wasn't all that suspicious of Remouk, yet that was his only suspect, so it's like, did he even bother to look into any other players, or was he just dead set on voting that one person? Obviously, not being willing to investigate everyone is a big problem for the town. And I've also talked about Earlder1' excuse for being a bit scummy. But yeah, I'll admit I'm still not the greatest when it comes to spotting scum activity. I am trying though.

But now that Alta's been replaced, things become more complicated. The vote will stay for now, but I'll really be paying attention to Shadow Dancer for the next while, to see if he does any better.

Nice to see an analysis from both brianj and ThatTumblweed. brianj's was nice and detailed, and gave some good information, generally seemed like he was scum hunting. So I feel a bit of a town vibe after that one. And well, I've always had a town vibe from Tumblweed, and nothing has changed there so far.

[Shadow Dancer]

Doing better than Alta is not a difficult task All I got of him was just horribad playstyle... I don't kow what to think of it... I seriously do not know what he was thinking, his post obviously do not make much sense. If hI hadn't replaced him I'd proposed a policy lynch on him. It's players like him that lose games for town...

[brianj]

Hello Shadow Dancer, welcome to the town. Hopefully you'll turn out to be more helpful than Alta :p

@Earlder1
Your point is acceptable. I actually made all that analysis because of your accusation anyway. Also note that I looked positively upon remouk's activity in the game, not his argument/opinion. There is a difference.

[Incognito]

Wow, thread explosion. Haven't read any of it yet - will post again tonight.

Hi Shadow Dancer and thanks for replacing in.

[Incognito]

You guys went from verbal constipation to suddenly having verbal diarrhea.

First of all, I won't be doing a player by player analysis at this time. I still just don't feel like I have as solid an opinion on everyone as I'd like to be able to produce one and that's really the ONLY time I ever do those things. So while it's nice to see that all of you have put things together analyzing everyone, you guys can count me out. I guess I'm not one of the cool kids like Tumbles mentioned.

A few comments though:

Leech- Post more. I like your first post however, because it was full of good analysis, which is always pro-town. So yeah, post more but I am leaning him toward town for now.

Others talked about this point already, but I don't see how Leech's first post was very pro-town at all. He put together a bunch of pointers that contained IC-like advice but didn't really commit to any opinions about people's alignments. And I find it strange that your analysis of him ends up leaning town on him but your analysis of me makes you lean more in the iffy column when I'd think that based on your own logic, I would be considered pro-town as well.

What do you think of everything Leech has done outside of that first post?

-~-~-~

I found myself really liking brian's post 125; I think he brings up some excellent points about Alta that I myself was beginning to notice as well, which was why I was beginning to question Alta before he replaced out. I'm a bit annoyed that Alta left the game - I would've liked to see where he was going with his suspicions and thoughts because I think we were beginning to get a feel for what the genuine Alta really is like, which might have hinted better at his alignment.

I will comment on this now though:

He is completely neutral to me- he has done well to draw out conversations from other people, but to my belief he also never commited to his opinion about other peoples?

I've pretty clearly stated my opinions of Earlder1 and have made it a point to mention that I was beginning to lean town on remouk too. And I think I've mentioned that I found you pretty town so far as well. Just because I'm not constantly updating my reads and stuff doesn't mean I'm not forming opinions; if I don't see anything questionable about a given player, I generally won't feel the need to comment on them.

Incog, what do you think of ThatTumblweed's play thus far?

I'm actually not completely sure right now. Everyone else seems to be reaching universal town reads of her, but I haven't seen anything from her that's given me that definite town feel from her at all. IMO, she's just seemed fairly logical which might be the reason behind the universal town reads, but in my experience good use of logic does not equate to being pro-town at all especially when it comes to Newbie players. I do like her taste when it comes to Earlder1 though so if I had to guess, I'd say town by default right now? She wouldn't be my first choice of a D1 lynch that's for sure.

-~-~-~

I'm gonna separate additional thoughts into another post since this one's getting kinda long.

[Incognito]

@Shadow Dancer:

Why so wishy-washy? You mention that you feel Earlder1 seems like an inexperienced player but then you conclude that he's no newbie and he should know better? Also, you mention that you didn't like my vote without reason but then mention that that's just some people's playstyles and then you IGMEOY on me? Which is it?

-~-~-~

At this point, I'm gonna

unvote, vote: Leech

.
This doesn't leave Earlder1 off the hook by far, but we're about a week and a half into this game, and Leech still hasn't produced any real content. I know he mentioned that he's been having some RL issues, but I'd really expect more from him given the fact that he has some experience around here, and I'd be real hard pressed to allow him to skate under my radar for the entirety of Day 1. Plus, I'm finding it a bit creepy that everyone seems to be mentioning at least SOME suspicion of him but nobody's bothered to place a vote down on him.

Either get involved, get replaced, or face the noose.

[Earlder1]

Alright, well here's a bit of information about me before I answer all of the posts. I am not experienced and anyone who thinks so is mistaken. I have completed one game. I am titled "mafia scum" because that one game took around 45 pages so I ended up with a decent amount of posts, but in terms of knowing the correct way to play and scumhunt, I am still learning. Therefore, anyone who says "Earlder1 is experienced and should know better" is incorrect.

I am now going to adress the posts as they presented themselves so I may address the same person non-consecutively.

@LC
It's just my opinion that someone who tries to stay on the fence when it comes to an issue is generally trying to abstain from giving their real opinion or is just afraid to get involved. I see scum doing this more than town. When I said brian is trying to appease everyone, I was referring to both Remouk and Incog, not necessarily everyone in the game. I apologize if it was confusing. Secondly, I don't judge you as neutral. I don't have a read on you. Therefore, I included in my list as more scummier than people I have judged as neutral because your play is more likely to change my mind about your allignment. The people who I actually have reads on are a little bit more concrete in their placement. It's just the way I structured my list.

@Shadow Dancer
Refer to above. I am not all that experienced.

@Brianj
Noted.

@Incog
I felt Leech's first post was beneficial because it gave kind of a bird's eye view of all the topics that we had discussed. He touched on a lot of the early game activity and I felt it was a good perspective because he ahd not previously been involved in it. Upon rereading, I do see how it does lack personal analysis. I suppose it is all just general comments about the events so far, but I did think that was pro-town, at least for me because it gave a fresh view to everything. Now he hasn't done anything since that first post, and I do not like that either. I wouldn't say it's scummy, but it's definitely not helping anything. I suppose his activity to come will sway him more one way or another, but for now I still see him as townish.

[Coach Travis]

@Incog:Yeah, I definitely get what you're saying about Leech:For all my work targeting unhelpful players, I never really got around to him, it's like he's been so inactive I sometimes completely forget about him. He seems the same to me as Remouk:Hasn't really done anything particularly helpful, and has been epically lurking, though he hasn't necessarily done anything scummy like Alta did. I'm still not sure about him, due to the lack of posts, though by default lurking is anti-town I think, so he seems a more likely scum than townie right now.