Newbie 962 (Game Over!)

[Kleedrac]

3 days and several replacements later and we're under way. Considering no one LIKES playing scum and the role got several replacements it's safe to assume that GroupThink is scummy!

Vote GroupThink

[Kleedrac]

Hey everyone, I am one of your 2 SE's. This is my third game and I'm excited to get it moving after a long confirmations phase ;p

3 days and several replacements later and we're under way. Considering no one LIKES playing scum and the role got several replacements it's safe to assume that GroupThink is scummy!

Vote GroupThink

I liked playing scum last game; you are overgeneralizing!

Vote: Kleedrac

YOU HEARD THAT?! I HEARD THAT!! You like being scum! Enjoy being lynched sir!

Unvote
Vote: vrtra

Note this totally isn't OMGUS Fnord

[Kleedrac]

1. Where you from?

Yorkton, SK, CA

2. Coke or Pepsi?

Coke - anyone who likes Pepsi is scum!

3. Are you nervous?

Not overly, why, are you?

4. Whats your playstyle?And if you've never played before what would you do in a panicky situation?

Try to build cases, get questioned on logic, get lynched day 1 (at least lately )

5. Are you excited to play?

Very much so

6. Lynch all lurkers?

Assuming we can't find scum then yes, it gives us less information on the next day but it makes up for that by culling the herd down to active townies and scum which helps more in the long run I find.

7. Lynch all Liars?

YES assuming they don't have a very very good reason such as a provable gambit or somesuch.

This is my first game here though I've played on somethingawful forums and such. I am a little concerned by the three week deadline on day 1 as I can't help but think it will promote ignoring the thread for 2.5 weeks No one is going to want to drop the hammer before the deadline and anyone on the block will try to promote weeks worth of conversation. Is this normal for this site? The FAQ listed the average length of a newbie game 3 weeks or did that mean day 1?

[Kleedrac]

EBWOP ^
It should be noted I'm at GMT-6 Saskatchewan (meaning we don't do that whole daylight savings time scam you guys do )

[Kleedrac]

2)Pepsi, but being from NC, I'm a little biased. (Pepsi was first made in New Bern, North Carolina)

What?! HERESY!

Unvote
Vote AKnottedRope

[Kleedrac]

To clarify what I said earlier about the hammer falling before the deadline; I meant in past games on other forums if one was to drop a hammer too long before deadline on a town lynch it would draw suspicion as the others would claim we didn't get a chance to hear from all possible sides and hear the claim and other such nonsense. Not that a claim is always nonsense by any means but especially in an F11 game such as this one there's nothing for vanilla townie to claim beyond "vanilla townie" which has never saved anyone from a lynch in my experience and effectively just gives the scum on the block opportunity to claim doc/cop without too much fear as it's not a terrible gambit by any means. I'm hoping we won't take 3 weeks to come to an accord on who to lynch but at the same time setting a deadline that far away may as well be no deadline at all and certainly not as effective as a deadline a week away
Just my 2 cents of course

[Kleedrac]

Ok, I've gone back and read through the thread and found this little jewel

Not that a claim is always nonsense by any means but especially in an F11 game such as this one there's nothing for vanilla townie to claim beyond "vanilla townie" which has never saved anyone from a lynch in my experience and effectively

just gives the scum on the block opportunity to claim doc/cop without too much fear as it's not a terrible gambit by any means

The bolded infers that klee has information on what roles are/are not in the game. According to the first post about the setup

a. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Cop, 1 Doctor, 5 Vanilla Townies
b. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 7 Vanilla Townies

c. 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies
d. 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Doctor, 6 Vanilla Townies

The only way that klee would know if there were or were not any PR's would be if he and his scumparter were regular goons. Furthermore, All that klee has posted all game has been "fluff" (useless filler posts

IC, is there another term for this?

) and response to Robo's questions. I think that's a pretty compelling case for klee being scum # 1

Unvote. Vote: kleedrac

Thoughts on this?

Wow what terrible logic. What I meant was that there's very little risk for any scum on the block to randomly claim something as they've got a 50/50 shot of the town's power role being in the game and it gives the bulk of us who are vanilla town (yes, this includes me) nothing to say if we end up on the block due to faulty logic such as this post. For a newbie game 4 pages into day 1 some of you are taking this a little bit too seriously Now @AKR please calm down and re-read my post. I wasn't saying anything beyond defending my point earlier that holding off on a hammer for a claim is bad play in my personal opinion. The leap across the grand canyon of logic you took to interpret that as the dumbest scumtell ever made is insane

[Kleedrac]

Alright, but why did you feel the need to include this:

it gives the bulk of us who are vanilla town (yes, this includes me)

Because by saying now I'm Vanilla Scum it should assure you that what I just said about scum claiming power roles to not apply to me thus if you guys really wanna lynch me don't bother waiting for a claim that will never come

[Kleedrac]

Alright, but why did you feel the need to include this:

it gives the bulk of us who are vanilla town (yes, this includes me)

Because by saying now I'm Vanilla

Townie

it should assure you that what I just said about scum claiming power roles to not apply to me thus if you guys really wanna lynch me don't bother waiting for a claim that will never come

EBWOP

[Kleedrac]

I've read and re-read the thread and while I can't build a convincing case using anything more than a gut feeling I'm going to go ahead and

FOS: Cove

if for no other reason than he's just trying too danged hard! It reminds me of other scum I've seen who throw cases and suspicions and votes around (and a confirmed vote, what the hell is that?!) which appears as though he's throwing suspicion in all directions to keep attention away from himself. As I said this is 90% gut which is why I'm using an FOS instead of a vote here but dude you need to tone it down.

[Kleedrac]

Evidently I had forgotten to unvote my joking vote on AKR earlier. And as a general rule I agree that FOS is situationally useful at best (closer to lylo and such) So given these two facts and Cove's pointing to a very late stage of an old game (when he said in his answering of Robo's questions is when his playstyle differs) I'm going to go ahead and;

Unvote
Vote Cove

And I'd also like to wish a happy birthday to Robo

[Kleedrac]

After re-reading the thread: vote: Kleedrac. My reasons are:

• Post #25
  : Entirely random (well...based on the fact that someone likes Pepsi) vote, when people are already making slightly more constructive comments. Not a huge issue, but a bit off for an SE.
  
  
• Post #48
  : Pointing out that vanilla townies haven't got anything to claim other than vanilla townie (pretty obvious), so basically fluff. Also, the flawed logic (at least in my mind) in the following:

  ...effectively just gives the scum on the block opportunity to claim doc/cop without too much fear as it's

  not a terrible gambit

  by any means.

  I'm hoping we won't take 3 weeks to come to an accord on who to lynch

  but at the same time setting a deadline that far away may as well be no deadline at all and certainly not as effective as a deadline a week away...

  Surely if scum are put at L-1 and they claim a townie PR (power role), if we
  do
  have the same townie power role then they've marked themselves as scum straight off. Sure, it's 50/50, but in such a situation I could imagine the following happening (assuming it's not LyLo):

  Person A (L-1 scum): Okay, so I'm being asked for a role-claim...I'm the doctor. Seems I'm going to die tonight now that I've said that, but at least you can lynch someone who's actually scum...
  Person B (doctor): I'm role-claiming the doctor, and there's only enough room for the one of us...*cue hammering*

  Worst case scenario for town at that point is that Person B is bussing (I believe that's the correct term?), but then they've got another problem of the
  actual
  doctor coming forwards...bit of a WIFOM moment (again, think that's the right term?), but it narrows it down to the scum being two out of three of the people who just role-claimed.
  
  Basically, scum claiming a town PR while at L-1 is risky, and not sure a 50/50 chance of death, albeit with the possible benefit of finding the PR who you claim for your surviving scumbuddy to kill that night, is worth it. I haven't got all that much Mafia experience under my belt (the game, not the role), but this sounds like a definite gambit if the scum try it.
  
  In reference to the second bolded point, discussion is always good, and a scum lynch on day 1 is an awesome benefit for the town. The more material we have to work with, the better.
  
  
• Post #76
  : In defence of AKR's mention of Post #48 (which I don't
  entirely
  agree with, but definitely a fan of promoting discussion), Klee makes two (in my mind) slip ups: first, see my comments on Post #48 for why backing up the logic is wrong; secondly: role-claiming vanilla townie, which does nothing to help the town (and possibly narrows down the PR targets for the scum, unless you're lying about it, which I wouldn't approve of anyway).
  
  
• Post #79
  : Possibly a typo, but also possibly a slip of the tongue when he writes "I'm vanilla scum" instead of "I'm vanilla townie".
  
  
• Post #83
  : Points FoS at Cove for "trying too danged hard". Putting pressure on people (as Cove mentioned in the previous post) is a definite way to get reactions at this stage in the game, so (as Cove was nowhere near a lynch), voting rather than FoSing would have been better.
  
  
• Post #100
  : Votes Cove. Doesn't mention why he changes to a vote rather than a FoS, which leads me to believe he's trying to conform to what the town want. As an SE, I can't really put that down as a "newbie error".

Earlier than planned, but revision gets boring after a while...hope that'll do nicely for a first analysis. Any comments on this, Klee?

Interesting. I suppose I can respond but I'm going to tell you right off not only are you on the wrong track but you're clearly over-analysing. In post #25 we were in the random or joke vote phase. If you look earlier I (jokingly) said in my survey that pepsi-lovers are obviously scum, this keeps with the joke.

In post 48 I'm trying to explain that due to the numbers game a fake claim on a townie power role is a 50/50 shot. I didn't then and still don't believe waiting at L-1 for a claim does anything but give the scum one last chance at a way out. I still won't hesitate to drop a hammer on anyone I feel is deserving. Not to mention the odds of a counter-claim work both ways! Should the scum feel its worth sacrificing one of their own numbers to get us to lynch our own doc/cop they can do it and we'll lose another member before we can even lynch the scum who did it! It's bad math and a bad play to allow a claim to be coerced like that and I stand by that position.

In #76 I try to clear up my logic and math so you can understand my position even if you don't want to adopt it. #79 was a typo clear and simple.

In #83 I explain why Cove has made me suspicious and I stand by it. I used FOS when I probably should have used a Vote in the first place. I don't like using FOS before end-game/LYLO but felt that as my suspicion is primarily based on gut-instinct and loose scumtells at best I didn't want to lay the vote right away. But when I found that the FOS was drawing suspicion I exchanged it for a Vote that I still feel confident in.

Should you like any further explanation, just ask.

[Kleedrac]

@Robo

By toning it down I meant wait till everyone else says something before speaking. I'm going to not post till all the people I named have spoken.

You realize saying this and then asking for 5 people to talk is basically giving yourself license to lurk right? Also I'm pretty sure some of the people you mentioned are on V/LA or whatever you call it. Would you mind telling me your gut read on Cove? And with all the :words: in there how do you feel about AKR? You pick apart his posts but I'm not sure you've ever said if you think he's scummy or just needs Ritalin (TM)? And I'm hoping you answer my questions before everyone else checks in with the thread sir

@AKR:

How do you feel about Robo? Beyond him asking you to tone it down and you explaining your flamboyant scumhunt tactics that is. You get annoyed at his posts but does that mean he's scum or just has a different ideology from you? What's your gut read on Cove?

@Lurkers:

Start posting or get lynched guys, it really can be that simple!

[Kleedrac]

People I want to hear from: Kleedrac, Kindred, Tidher (I know you're on VLA, I still want to hear from you when you get back).

To you all:

1) Why aren't you voting GT?
2) Do you think someone is scummier than GT?
3) What are your thoughts on the rest of the game as a whole?

Klee

Why do you still have a vote on Cove?

Kindred

You haven't said much at all this game, why?

Tidher

Um, hi. Big post please.

1) I hadn't had a chance to read his post history, now that I have that will change before the end of this post.

2) I had built a case on Cove a while back for him trying too hard to point fingers all over the place. The problem is he actually listened to me, calmed down, and has become a very productive member of the town!

3) This game is moving very very slowly as I predicted. I'm a little concerned about the amount of meta arguments in a newbie game and also very concerned about the increasing distraction of your argument with Robo. If he is being mean to you perhaps that's a role he's playing to help us newbies build cases against him? I don't believe for a second he's just being a dick for the sake of being a dick and in his other games I've read he tends not to be so I'm pretty sure he's doing it solely to help us newbies and we should treat it as such.

As for your question on me, as I said earlier I was thinking Cove before but he's since calmed down and GroupThink is being the opposite of a productive townie; he's lurkish, when he does post he treats the game as a whole like a joke, and as much as people hate to hear this, sometimes a day 1 lynch that may be town but is still a distracting player is in the town's best interests. Therefore;

Unvote
Vote: GroupThink

I realize GT that my vote will not make your life less interesting or the game more interesting, but perhaps with the distraction of you gone, for better or worse in terms of raw town numbers, we shall get some scumhunting done on the morrow

@Mod - May we have a votecount please sir?

[Kleedrac]

I'm back! Sorry about my unannounced absense but my basement was flooding and other real life frustrations prevented me from being here. I got replaced in the other game I was playing and hoped that with this game in night phase I'd be back before it opened (I wasn't) but with most of it cleared up (well still some water down here but we've got a dehumidifier running round the clock) I can come back and play! I wasn't overly suspicious of Vrtra so welcome Agar TBQH I just re-read the thread and although a few things are pinging my gut as scummy nothing worthy of building a case I'm afraid. What do we make of GT's final post? I had chocked it up to flailing till he flipped Town.

[Kleedrac]

@Kleedrac - Do you feel losing the cop on N1 was a big detriment to the town or not?

It was as big a detriment as losing any other townie. The cop is a dangerous role to have, should he use his investigation results to drive a bandwagon (assuming sanity) he will most certainly be night killed afterwards. The biggest upside to losing the cop is we have another clue about the setup of the game, we know we have power roles so that eliminates one setup, we know we had a cop so that eliminates the doc-only setup. Sadly this is more telling for the scum side, but any clues on setup are a bit more helpful to the town's understanding of the game. And for my question to you; Do you feel that with all the replacements in an already newbie setup game this will help or hinder the town?

[Kleedrac]

No, robo, I don't think I'm 1000% correct. I'm likely very incorrect, in fact. I just wanted to put it out there for comment.

@Kleedrac: Thoughts?

Yes, many. I just woke up and checked in with the thread and am evidently scum with Robo of all people?! May I ask how I am scum? I've been trying to help the town but, maybe due to the fact we're all new-ish, I'm having a hard time finding anything really scummy to start case-building.