Mini 964: Another Story - Over!

[Thief]

Sorry, I meant

Unvote:
Vote: VibeBox

Though Chevre's L-1 vote was terrible.

[Azelf]

The use of this new numbering format was suggested to me; I'm going to see how it works out.

VOTES:

Chevre

-

L-5

Deer

-

L-5

MrSandman

-

L-5

Pie_is_good

-

L-5

Red Star

-

L-5

Thief

-

L-2

(Unsight, Vibebox, Chevre)

VibeBox

-

L-3

(Pie_is_good, Thief)

Unsight

-

L-5

yabbaguy

-

L-5

No Lynch

-

L-5

[Unsight]

Sorry, I meant

Unvote:
Vote: VibeBox

Though Chevre's L-1 vote was terrible.

Wow, it's been like 100 posts since you even talked to Vibebox. Have you got some reasons for this vote or are you just hopping on the only other bandwagon that isn't you? And what happened to your Elias/Sandman/Yabba suspect list?

[Unsight]

Vote: Chevre

I just got put L-1 in one page.

Let's step back and use our fucking heads first.

Also I'm not claiming unless we massclaim.

How about a massclaim starting with you?

[Unsight]

The use of this new numbering format was suggested to me; I'm going to see how it works out.

VOTES:

Chevre

-

L-5

Deer

-

L-5

MrSandman

-

L-5

Pie_is_good

-

L-5

Red Star

-

L-5

Thief

-

L-2

(Unsight, Vibebox, Chevre)

VibeBox

-

L-3

(Pie_is_good, Thief)

Unsight

-

L-5

yabbaguy

-

L-5

No Lynch

-

L-5

Try this:

Deadline is <insert date>.

Thief - Unsight, Vibebox, Chevre (L-2)
Vibebox - Pie_is_good, Thief (L-3)

Not voting - Deer, MrSandman, Red Star, yabbaguy

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

I like it! Thanks for helping me improve.

[yabbaguy]

@Yabba: With two kills a night, we're potentially very close to LyLo. Assuming 2 scum 1 SK, mislynch today + no cross-killing = 6 alive, 3 of which are scum. This isn't exactly LyLo, but it's close.

Okay... so are you saying we're just trying to reduce the probability of a mislynch? This instantly falls flat if scum fakeclaims. I agree, the game becomes very dangerous for Town if a mislynch occurs today, but at the same time, you have to think ahead. I really don't want to be in LyLo with investigation roles out of the game and likely the town they confirmed gone with them.

Secondly; what about the "politics" of the factions need to be taken into account? The only thing that I can think of is that you're wondering about investigation immunity. There may very well be investigation screwers (godfathers/millers), but at this point, nobody knows whether they lie in Mafia or SK, if anyone. Even if it was a vig, and we're only facing Mafia, you face the same dilemma of whether an investigation screwer exists or not. Is there something else I'm missing here? Lynch order (do we kill Maf today)? I'm stumped.

Not just at Pie, but everyone, really. I don't get it. One of the consequences of town apathy is that we tend to head towards irrational decisions hoping it will somehow split the game open. I agree fireworks need to be going off right now, but at the same time, keeping claims to a minimum is more important than using them as fuel for said pyrotechnics. Wagonning Thief is one way- esp. with the AtE and what Unsight mentioned about his hopping.

[Thief]

Sorry, I meant

Unvote:
Vote: VibeBox

Though Chevre's L-1 vote was terrible.

Wow, it's been like 100 posts since you even talked to Vibebox. Have you got some reasons for this vote or are you just hopping on the only other bandwagon that isn't you? And what happened to your Elias/Sandman/Yabba suspect list?

I abandoned my reads in favor of Pie who seems like he actually has read the thread carefully. I agree with his case on Vibe, and if he wants to Yabba (god knows why) then we can. Are you paying less attention than me?

I don't remember having a read on Sandman, but meh. I wouldn't cry if anyone but you and Pie were lynched.

I should probably go back with the people that were setting up my D2 lynch. But if memory serves I thought derailing the SSBF wagon was the main point against me, but he didn't flip scum so now its the fact that I buddied with Pie and went for a lynch to help jumpstart this game.

Also we're not starting with me, trust me.

Here's my order:
Vibebox
Chevre
Yabba
Red Star
Thief
Deer
RealityFan
Unsight
Pie

[Thief]

are you just hopping on the only other bandwagon that isn't you?

Nailed it right on the head. Don't pretend this is anything more than a nulltell though it will just make you look stupid later.

[Chevre]

I abandoned my reads in favor of Pie who seems like he actually has read the thread carefully.

Maybe if you carefully read the thread yourself you could form some unique opinions instead of being a wagonhopper.

Nailed it right on the head. Don't pretend this is anything more than a nulltell though it will just make you look stupid later.

This sounds like scare tactics. Though I'm curious why you did jump on that bandwagon, if anything more than this reason.

[Pie_is_good]

To respond quickly to the Yabbster, massclaim only fails in the ways you suggest if we refuse to lynch power roles on policy, which isn't the way to do it - we should resolve crossclaims as quickly as possible, for example, and overly implausible claims should be lynched without hesitation. The "politics" comment means we have other concerns in the 6-man endgame mentioned above - for example, a "guilty" result is only 2/3 trustable because we can't lynch the SK without instantly losing to the remaining two scum.

In any case, this debate might be moot if the town's stance on massclaim proves overwhelmingly one way or the other. Can we get more opinions on that?

[yabbaguy]

First off,

y

abbaguy. Thanks.

Also we're not starting with me, trust me.

*referee whistle*

NOT ALLOWED.

And your statement is rubbish. Maybe you didn't derail a wagon like I thought, but you've still wanted to lynch V/LA players D1, and now you're resorting to AtE.

I'll respond to pie when I'm on a computer with a working spacebar so I don't have to C/P a fucking space every time I want a fucking space.

[VibeBox]

-Decently-sized scum read on Vibebox. I have two independent points here, both of which hinge partially on his admission of being experienced. The first is minor, and it has to do with his "Let's Contribute More!" cheerleading posts. They come across to me as forced and telling the town what they want to hear without, y'know, contributing more himself.

I knew full well when I was posting them that they might look like that, but there was just nothing to discuss at the time.

The second is bigger, and it's that I've noticed significant buddying with Red Star. He doesn't start seriously attacking Jag until Jag goes after RS (and he revives his attack a bit when Jag later speaks ill of RS again). He also spends a decent amount of time entertaining RS's question string and meaningless ISO. One of the first things I thought upon reading RedStar was that he's your standard Logical Rampage type player, and if I were scum it would be very easy to get on his good side by entertaining his contributions and letting him play the role of Town Captain. I see VibeBox doing exactly that.

When I asked for specifics this is what I meant. Pleas provide a string of posts in which you see the pattern of me "defending" RS from Jag.
As for spending an inordinate amount of time discussing RS's content, well there really hasn't been much to discuss, so it makes sense that I would linger on any real content.
Also, for my re-integration purposes can you explain exactly what you mean by "Logical Rampage Player"?

Vote: Chevre

I just got put L-1 in one page.

Let's step back and use our fucking heads first.

Also I'm not claiming unless we massclaim.

Sorry, I meant

Unvote:
Vote: VibeBox

Though Chevre's L-1 vote was terrible.

This feels like you wanted to take an easy OMGUS for Chevre's awful vote, but then realized it was more beneficial to you to follow Pie's vote and try to pass it off as the same reason. You even aknowlege it was a blatant wagon vote and try to ward people off of holding it against you with non-logic.
Refusing to claim, or even be first to claim in a Mass is just dumb no matter how you look at it.

I should probably go back with the people that were setting up my D2 lynch. But if memory serves I thought derailing the SSBF wagon was the main point against me, but he didn't flip scum so now its the fact that I buddied with Pie and went for a lynch to help jumpstart this game.

Please provide quote of instances when either of these was the main point against you. Feels like Strawman.
Every time you post I feel better and better about Lynching you

Okay... so are you saying we're just trying to reduce the probability of a mislynch? This instantly falls flat

if scum fakeclaims.

I agree, the game becomes very dangerous for Town if a mislynch occurs today, but at the same time, you have to think ahead. I really don't want to be in LyLo with investigation roles out of the game and likely the town they confirmed gone with them.

Emphasis Added in Bold.
What else would they do? This sounds like a half baked argument against MassClaim.

@Azelf: I like the "L-X" system, but I think the one Unsight suggested looks cleaner.

[VibeBox]

Vibe, frankly, you haven't been helping much with the fact. Feeling sorry for yourself isn't an excuse.

Please restructure whatever points you were trying to make here in such a way that the sentences are actually coherent.

[yabbaguy]

Please restructure whatever points you were trying to make here in such a way that the sentences are actually coherent.

I can just tell you're having a rough day today. Sorry to hear that. :\

For whatever reason, I thought you were inactive, but that's absurdly false, if anything, you're the opposite end of the activity spectrum. Dropping. I can't even argue about you needing more content in each post since you pretty much did that.

As for the scum fakeclaiming, I'm regarding powerroles, the problematic aspect of them claiming.

Now I simply don't want to massclaim because Thief is acting scummy and trying to hide behind the process of massclaiming, namely trying to weasel his way into a middle-of-the-pack claim. I don't see a town player, even a powerrole, acting this way.

I don't see massclaim forcing scum out like Pie describes. Does this tend to have a high success rate?

I'm surprised a great number of you want to do this, esp. seeing an obvious suspect glaring me in the face. He's even hiding behind the policy, saying "I won't unless everyone else does". That's what scum wants. If we can't lynch correctly, and then our powerroles go away, then we're on a coin flip at LyLo. Even with speculative guilties as described, we're better off, I believe. Please, please don't let apathy get to us and cause us to do reckless decisions. Outing any investigator with one, unverifiable investigation is a HUGE mistake. Outing any protector with two kills in play is a HUGE mistake.

The debate, I feel, hinges around how much we value PRs, esp. investigative ones, how likely that the mere revealing of claims will help us find scum, and how confident we feel lynching. Remember, we mislynched ONCE. Yeah, I thought for sure SSBF was going to flip red, but at the same time, I think Thief is a surefire bet.

Vote: Thief

I don't know how else to put it. If you all want to out town weaponry, which was put there

to make it fair for town

, fine.

[VibeBox]

I'll address the rest of your post tomorrow or Thursday, but for now,

Unvote

.

Why would you put Thief at L-1 again, giving him the option as Scum to self-hammer and end discussion? Especially after we just commented on how poor a play it was from someone else?

[Pie_is_good]

I had something longer typed up about Thiefwagon and the massclaim issue, but then I had a thought that might influence my stance on it. Thief: You haven't weighted in on the prospect of multiple scum groups - what do you think?

Let me also say that, if we wind up not massclaiming, I will have no sympathy for a refusal to claim from Thief. More on this later.

On to Vibebox.

I knew full well when I was posting them that they might look like that, but there was just nothing to discuss at the time.

On a scale from one to convincing, the defense "But I posted knowing that I might get attacked for them later!" gets a pretty weak.

Also, for my re-integration purposes can you explain exactly what you mean by "Logical Rampage Player"?

To clarify, this isn't a bit of site lore; I kind of made it up on the spot.

There's a kind of player who's here because they pride themselves on their logical abilities. They consider themselves smarter than everyone else and they use this forum as a way to prove it. They take every opportunity to assert how mafia is a logical game and how we should be proceeding as logically as possible and there's no way we can lose. We all know the type, I think it's clear that Red Star is one of them.

You've claimed to be experienced; it's almost certain that you know this type of player and how to get on their good side (take them very seriously) and how to make them productive members of the town (discount talk that seems overly Logical Rampagey). Yet:

A couple of comments after going through all your ISOs, RS.

Chevre

0- Fluff
1- RV Cuetlachti
2:3- Fluff
4- Asks where Empking has gone
5- Doesn't like case against Thief

Odd that his only contribution to the game, questioning your self-labeled "pressure vote" in (2) & (4), is not even mentioned.
But yeah, has basically posted nothing.

Deer
6- Fluff

In (6), your "pressure vote" is again questioned, and you label fluff.

Empking
8- Tries to defend something no-one was questioning

(8): I was questioning it actually. We had just had an exchange about it. The post does strike me as odd and defensive, but it wasn't as out of the blue as you imply.

RS, what would you say is Empking's scummiest post

besides

the "Wagon Jag" post?

Is a very serious interpretation of RedStar's "ISOs" that actually resembled a subjective bit of summarizing. Similarly,

It would be a great treat for me if EVERYONE were to respond, at least in some way, to RS's assessments. We could nearly double the amount of relevant posts in the next 48 hours if this were to happen (, sadly).

in reference to the same "assessments." My question for you is: did you really, at the time, think Red Star's ISOs had serious strategic value? If so, why? If not, why did you respond the way you did?

To be clear, my underlying accusation here is that VibeBox, as scum, saw RedStar's posting as an opportunity to get on RedStar's good side and appear to the town at large to be contributing without actually doing so. I think a reading of VibeBox's posting as genuine - i.e., that he really thought RedStar was adding some good content - is inconsistent with his claims of experience.

[Pie_is_good]

EBWOP:

In re Thief, I also want to add that I find his blind following of my reads distasteful as well. There's a difference between saying "I agree with Pie's explanations" and "I don't necessarily agree with Pie's explanations, but I'll follow them because he knows better than I do." Neither is great, but Thief is currently choosing the latter and I'd feel a bit better if he'd be a bit more committal than that.

[yabbaguy]

@Vibe: -I don't want to massclaim.
-Thief refuses to claim himself.

Different than before he had the chance to claim.

[Chevre]

[/quote="VibeBox"]giving him the option as Scum to self-hammer[/quote]

I'm confused. Wouldn't that be a good thing?

On Red Star, he is my second suspect, but he is far less suspicious than Thief.

[Azelf]

New and shiny format go!

No deadline is currently in place.

Thief

- Unsight, Chevre, Yabbaguy (

L-2

)

Vibebox

- Pie_is_good, Thief (

L-3

)

Not voting

- Deer, MrSandman, Red Star, Vibebox

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

[Pie_is_good]

Mod:

You have Yabba both voting for Thief and not voting. You don't have Vibebox listed as not voting.

Also, where the hell are Deer, Sandman, Red Star? Prods/Replacements?

Whoops. I really need to start double-checking my copypasta.

Anyways, I already prodded Deer and Sandman; they both need to be replaced. I'm going to wait and see if Red Star responds; it'd be easier to put in a request for all three at once.

[Pie_is_good]

Possible V/LA until Monday night - unsure if I have wifi.

[Azelf]

FFFFFFUUUUUUUUU

Deer

,

MrSandman

, and

Red Star

have all been

dropped from the game.

(Deer and Red Star dropped out, MrSandman was dropped due to inactivity)

Replacements will be arranged for.

[VibeBox]

I'm confused. Wouldn't that be a good thing?

It would be for scum. It would end all discussion and prevent the Town from gaining further information from the Day.

RE: My "unconvincing defense". The only real defense to be made for the post is the context in which it was made. However since you weren't around for the grating Stagnation of Day 1, and have now sold yourself on a pattern of scummy activity from me, I see no way to convince you that I was doing anything but making an earnest plea for activity.

My question for you is: did you really, at the time, think Red Star's ISOs had serious strategic value? If so, why? If not, why did you respond the way you did?

Not really, no. Frankly I thought it was sloppy and poorly presented. I discussed it as seriously as I did because I was hoping that by discussing it heavily, and getting others to do so I could get a nearly universally abandoned game going, and possibly generate discussion of real value.

To be clear, my underlying accusation here is that VibeBox, as scum, saw RedStar's posting as an opportunity to get on RedStar's good side and appear to the town at large to be contributing without actually doing so. I think a reading of VibeBox's posting as genuine - i.e., that he really thought RedStar was adding some good content - is inconsistent with his claims of experience.

While I am experienced, I was also clear that I am just coming back to the game, and am probably quite rusty. My experience told me that stagnant games were deadly for Town, and even discussion of little value was better than nothing. I think there is ample evidence of this mindset in my pointed questions to RS, and attempts to get others to respond in any way.

Edit While Posting: God Damn It! I could not have asked for a worse game to be the one I return to MS for. Even the replacements need replacements. Seriously, fuck this game.

I think that pretty much sums it up.

[Thief]

Oh lord Flake city.

I'll be back in a month when its my turn to claim.