Mini 1005: Mafiaphobes! (Game over)

[quadz08]

Ok, I've now done a re-read of the whole thread. woooooo! Dang, we spent a long time arguing about Tasky's questions. Ugh.

My number one suspect right now is SSBF. First and foremost is this:

Defending people is a scum tell, period.

This is part of his ISO #9. To me, what this statement boils down to is that if a player has a reasonable point saying that a player is not scum (or may not be scum, or whatever), he shouldn't bring it up if that person is thought to be scummy. That makes no sense to me. "Gee, I have this opinion that, if brought up, may keep us from lynching a townie. But that's a no-no! Only scum defend people!" I just don't see how forcing out opinions is pro-town in any way.

There is also this (found in his ISO #8):

Absolutely hate this. I see absolutely no purpose of that self-vote, especially since we're already getting something to work on in this game.

SSBF made a pretty big deal about what was clearly a jokey vote. Like someone (diddin, maybe?) said earlier, it seems like he's grasping at straws. Yes, we were in the serious stage. But come on, it's a game, dangit! Let a man make a dumb joke. It meant nothing and did no harm to scumhunting. Not worth the attention it's gotten.

I also have an eye on KageLord, xvart, and vezok, but nobody has really exhibited any huge scumtells that I've seen. SSBF seems to me the wisest D1 lynch, at this point.

[quadz08]

Woops, almost forgot!

UNVOTE:
VOTE: SSBF

[xvart]

The point would be to get my opinion across on diddin's comment. Yes, it was a defense of what he said. However, I think that every opinion expressed in this game is, at its core, either an attack or a defense of another player. If the only opinions you express are attacking opinions, then that's your choice. That doesn't make a defense a scummy play.

I don't exactly agree with your point in concept. I think there is defending people and there is not supporting someone's argument. The latter is typically used and I find it suspicious when someone else jumps in and answers for someone or defends someone. If you are looking for how someone responds or want some straight answers it helps when they respond first, and not be prompted by someone else.

@xvart: So I caught something immediately after I posted. Again, what's wrong with that?

Forced? How so?

I'm just trying to show that doubleposting is not a scumtell.

I never said doubleposting was a scumtell. And the fact that you said you caught something after you posted when there was a minute in between posts is interesting.

It's interesting, though, that you should ask I why I didn't mention things that I did mention. Shows that the only thing you paid attention to in that first post of mine was the self vote (something you could attack me for). Not reading all the content of a post, especially such a short post, is scummy.

Nice deflection back on me. I obviously read your post, and the only thing relevant to the game is the fact that you self voted (and your "justification").

It's interesting, though, that you should ask I why I didn't mention things that I did mention. Shows that the only thing you paid attention to in that first post of mine was the self vote (something you could attack me for). Not reading all the content of a post, especially such a short post, is scummy.

Lets analyse the responses to that self vote... 9 out of 11 players other than myself moved on without so much as a comment (maybe they laughed, maybe they didn't; I don't know, I don't have little cameras at everyone's computers to see if they're laughing). 2 out of eleven people called me out for it. Even if neither you not SSBF are scum, those numbers still prove that most townies paid it very little mind.

So, hypothetically if only two people catch a scumtell it is invalid?

As to why I don't care if vezo is scum or town now? Because I don't. Whatever his alignment is, I believe that his drawing a lot of heat, whether he intended to or not, has exposed scum. Namely you. If you get lynched and I am proved right, then I have no problem seeing if it can be done again tomorrow using vezo and I still won't care what alignment he is. If the conversation surrounding vezo keeps drawing out scum, I'm in favor of keeping him around until it doesn't. Then I'll consider looking at his alignment.

Well now that you have found scum connections as you were trying to do you still don't care if vezok is scum or town?

I would support a Kage lynch, too.

Tasky has stated that he will be v/la for 16 days, and seeing as the deadline for one game day is 14 days he will miss out on a significant portion of the game, so I've decided it's up to you guys whether you're happy to have him remain in the game or if you would rather him be replaced.

I don't know whether I will be able to get an internet connection in the place I'll going... if I am, then I could post sometimes (not often, but every two or three days)...
I'd make a proposal, you wait to replace me until the 20th and if I haven't posted until then it means I have no internet and if the other players want it, you can replace me at that point...

Yep okay, that sounds good. Another possible option is if you know of someone who might be willing to replace you just while you're away (kind of acting like a fill-in), I think that would be okay.

I say that's fine, as long as Tasky sets up an minimum time that he would post to know if he won't be replaced. If he doesn't make his deadline, replace him. I can't say I'm a fan of the idea of temporary substitute.

xvart.

[Friend]

Here's what basically happened, xvart:

I posted, saying vezo's unvote reeked. I submitted it. Then, I thought "boy I should mention why said unvote reeks, or else other people won't understand why." So I clarified.

I never said doubleposting was a scumtell. And the fact that you said you caught something after you posted when there was a minute in between posts is interesting.

You say interesting...interesting as in scummy? Interesting is an INCREDIBLY vague word and it should be banned from scumhunters' vocabulary.

[Oso]

@xvart

Did you perhaps forget to close a quote tag some where. I think you are asking me a question in your last post but I'm not sure, it is in among quoted text.

[KageLord]

@xvart: So I caught something immediately after I posted. Again, what's wrong with that?

Forced? How so?

I'm just trying to show that doubleposting is not a scumtell.

I never said doubleposting was a scumtell. And the fact that you said you caught something after you posted when there was

a minute in between

posts is interesting.

xvart.

I advise you not to try this. Remember what happened to me when I tried to bring time into it? I'm surprised Oso didn't already mention this though.

Also, even I, the infamous time-watcher, see no significance in just 1 minute in between posts for something like that.

[xvart]

You say interesting...interesting as in scummy? Interesting is an INCREDIBLY vague word and it should be banned from scumhunters' vocabulary.

The reason I say "interesting" is because you said you caught something between your post and your doublepost. Not that you remembered it or forgot something but that you "caught" something (which reads to me as you went back and did some reading and noticed something else). While this may just be semantics, it also might suggest that you were trying to back peddle after I questioned you about it. That's why I said interesting and not necessarily scummy. Something to keep in mind, for sure.

@Oso - Talk about major quote failure. This was the buried question in that mess:

Well now that you have found scum connections as you were trying to do you still don't care if vezok is scum or town?

xvart.

[Oso]

Thanks, I thought that was it.

Yes, I do. But it does depend somewhat on if KageLord flips town or scum if he is lynched. As I stated earlier, the way KL constructed his attack makes me think that that vezo may indeed be town.

Since I do think that KL is scum, vezo right now is looking better in my eyes right now as well.

[vezokpiraka]

I don't remember anyone keeping me alive just for the owl effect.

I can't think straight right now. I should reread everyone.

[q21]

It's interesting, though, that you should ask I why I didn't mention things that I did mention. Shows that the only thing you paid attention to in that first post of mine was the self vote (something you could attack me for). Not reading all the content of a post, especially such a short post, is scummy.

Nice deflection back on me. I obviously read your post, and the only thing relevant to the game is the fact that you self voted (and your "justification").

So then why ask me about why I didn't include things if those things weren't relevant? (despite the fact that I did include some of them)

Lets analyse the responses to that self vote... 9 out of 11 players other than myself moved on without so much as a comment (maybe they laughed, maybe they didn't; I don't know, I don't have little cameras at everyone's computers to see if they're laughing). 2 out of eleven people called me out for it. Even if neither you not SSBF are scum, those numbers still prove that most townies paid it very little mind.

So, hypothetically if only two people catch a scumtell it is invalid?

No, I didn't say that. If only two people catch a scumtell then its up to those two people to bring it to everyone else's attention. Thing is, selfvoting like that isn't a scumtell. My point was not that I thought 9 players missed my self vote, I reckon everyone saw it (its a kinda obvious thing), but that most of the other players figured it wasn't worth calling me out on.

[Tasky]

ISO on vezokpiraka:

1: three lines, three times scummy... line 1, denies information (well, we had that discussion enough ); line 2 - why would scum ever want to end the RVS? why would town and scum do it in a different way; line 3 - totally faulty accusation
total: decent scumtell = -0.3

2: first part is odd, wrong at least, scummy at worst; second part is stepping back while keeping the attack with the vague statement "I don't like tasky's response to my vote."
total: slight scumtell = -0.1

3: theory discussion - nulltell (0)

4: theory discussion - nulltell (0)

5: sheeping? - slight scumtell (-0.05)

6: contradicting unvote of previous post - slight scumtell (-0.1)

7: one can discuss a lot about this post, in the end I think it's honest and we shouldn't overrate it (0)

8: explanation - nulltell (0)

9: explanation - nulltell for now (0) but you still owe us "all your reads"

10: while I do not share your method, I respect it - nulltell for the first sentence
"People usually suspect me if I don't have a PR and I'm uncced. " - this looks a lot like the selfmeta you so fiercely attack in ISO 2 - contradiction - slight scumtell (-0.05)

11: this looks a lot like OMGUS, since you give absolutely no reason for your argument against KageLord - slight scumtell (-0.1)

12: nulltell (0)

13: still self-meta... but consistent, so I'll say null-tell

14: wow... this post is crazy... I'd like to hear a

very good

explanation for it (haven't still heard one), especially the first line... for now I won't call it a scumtell...

15: weak explanation, I expect a stronger one soon...

16: the first line is the important one, not the last line

17: nice point, even if I don't think Friend is scum atm - slight towntell (+0.1)

18: backing back from what could have been a good point? fear of being attacked? attempt to buddy in the last line? - slight scumtell (-0.1)

19: overall an acceptable post, only thing I don't like is " I scum hunt very weird"... don't expect to use this as an excuse now or later

20: what's the owl effect? this post seems to imply there is no other reason to keep you alive? isn't there? - slight scumtell (-0.05)

total: -0.75
I vezokpiraka will be a good lynch today, if we don't find anything much scummier, for 2 reasons:
1. he is highly scummy
2. he is/was the centre of attention of a lot of peoples posts... since a lot of peoples have debated against/for/with him, making him flip will give us more information that anyones else's flip

therefore I am quite comfortable with leaving my vote on him atm...

[diddin]

Tasky, what is this point system you are using for ISO's of people? Is it of your own creation or is it a universal point system from somewhere? If it's something you just created, it's subject to bias and I'd take it with a grain of salt.

[Tasky]

Tasky, what is this point system you are using for ISO's of people? Is it of your own creation or is it a universal point system from somewhere? If it's something you just created, it's subject to bias and I'd take it with a grain of salt.

yeah, of course it's subjective...
it's a way to show how scummy I evaluate different posts... so that my logic is clearer and if there is something you don't agree with it's easier to discuss about it...

[vezokpiraka]

Mod

: Big Shit happened. Someone died. I am V/LA for the next 4-5 days. Sorry.

Noted, sorry to hear about that.

[diddin]

Tasky, what is this point system you are using for ISO's of people? Is it of your own creation or is it a universal point system from somewhere? If it's something you just created, it's subject to bias and I'd take it with a grain of salt.

yeah, of course it's subjective...
it's a way to show how scummy I evaluate different posts... so that my logic is clearer and if there is something you don't agree with it's easier to discuss about it...

I don't mind it, in fact I actually like it. I was just curious.

[KageLord]

Tasky, what is this point system you are using for ISO's of people? Is it of your own creation or is it a universal point system from somewhere? If it's something you just created, it's subject to bias and I'd take it with a grain of salt.

yeah, of course it's subjective...
it's a way to show how scummy I evaluate different posts... so that my logic is clearer and if there is something you don't agree with it's easier to discuss about it...

I noticed this in the other game and I have to say I like it too. It reminds me of chess analysis. Anyway, I didn't want to rip off your idea, which is why I didn't do something similar.

And needless to say, I agree the conclusion to your ISO analysis.

[totallynotmafia]

Vote count 1.6

Oso (0)
Tasky (1) Super Smash Bros. Fan
KageLord (3) Oso, vezokpiraka, q21
Friend (1) jayfl383
q21 (0)
jayfl383 (0)
xvart (1) ChibiSanNub
quadz08 (0)
diddin (0)
vezokpiraka (3) Tasky, Friend, KageLord
ChibiSanNub (0)
Super Smash Bros. Fan (2) diddin, quadz08

Not voting: xvart

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.

Deadline is July 21, 10:30 AM (GMT + 10:00).

Searching for a replacement for ChibiSanNub.

If Tasky hasn't posted by the 20th I'll assume he doesn't have internet access during his v/la and I'll look for a replacement, in which case I'll probably extend the deadline.

[quadz08]

@vezok: My sympathies, my friend. You'll be in my thoughts.

@Tasky: Your point system is interesting. I pretty much agree with your ISO on vezok, and this:

he is/was the centre of attention of a lot of peoples posts... since a lot of peoples have debated against/for/with him, making him flip will give us more information that anyones else's flip

is an excellent point.

I would be ok with a vezok lynch today. I still think SSBF looks scummier, but vezok certainly has a good enough case against him to be lynched today.

[Friend]

@Mod: Requesting replacement. My apologies.

Okay, no worries.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Unvote

Tasky's play resemble's a townie a lot more. He is finally contributing to the game and making stances. I'll still keep a close eye on him, thought. For example, I thought his ISO of diddin and vezokpiraka contained some unecessary information, especially the points where he passes them off as null tells, those can be cut off unless he has something worthwhile to say about them. Looking forward to hearing more out of the slot.

I also need to re-read the thread to see if I can bring anything else to the table and mention who I think should be the play for ToDay.

@diddin: ISO: 9: Why have you decided against defending your actions that I brought up against you?

[xvart]

It's interesting, though, that you should ask I why I didn't mention things that I did mention. Shows that the only thing you paid attention to in that first post of mine was the self vote (something you could attack me for). Not reading all the content of a post, especially such a short post, is scummy.

Nice deflection back on me. I obviously read your post, and the only thing relevant to the game is the fact that you self voted (and your "justification").

So then why ask me about why I didn't include things if those things weren't relevant? (despite the fact that I did include some of them)

Because the only thing game relevant was the self vote. The rest was just your personal business which doesn't really matter to me (other than the context of the self vote). I think you're missing the point of the original suspicion I had of you: Lurking is generally considered anti-town at best and scummy at worst. You pop in, make a joke about not being around self-voting. In my eyes, a scummy person is more likely to try and deflect the attention of being a lurker by making a joke. Town people have nothing to hide. And the fact that you immediately call my behavior scummy is mildly concerning to me; say you are town, you don't think it's possible for town to find something scummy about another town member? Isn't that what mafia is all about? Determining who is town and who is scum? When two people expressed suspicion over something you did it is automatically scum motivated? And you really think that both of us are on a scum team and decided to attack you on this? Now that I think about it, your immediate OMGUS without the vote is more indicative of scum than town.

No, I didn't say that. If only two people catch a scumtell then its up to those two people to bring it to everyone else's attention. Thing is, selfvoting like that isn't a scumtell. My point was not that I thought 9 players missed my self vote, I reckon everyone saw it (its a kinda obvious thing), but that most of the other players figured it wasn't worth calling me out on.

But the majority of the town not speaking out doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed and doesn't mean it should simply be dismissed.

2. he is/was the centre of attention of a lot of peoples posts... since a lot of peoples have debated against/for/with him, making him flip will give us more information that anyones else's flip

I don't really like this. It sounds like a justification for a mislynch.

Hey, hey flipped town but at least we learned a bunch about a lot of people!

it's a way to show how scummy I evaluate different posts... so that my logic is clearer and if there is something you don't agree with it's easier to discuss about it...

Comparisons like this only mean something to me if you have comparison samples. It really doesn't mean much if the only two people sampled are at -0.75 and -0.50 if everyone else would yield a result of -2.0.

Tasky's play resemble's a townie a lot more. He is finally contributing to the game and making stances. I'll still keep a close eye on him, thought. For example, I thought his ISO of diddin and vezokpiraka contained some unecessary information, especially the points where he passes them off as null tells, those can be cut off unless he has something worthwhile to say about them. Looking forward to hearing more out of the slot.

For someone who is a lot more town now, you sure do go out of your way to explain reasons why you are keeping your eye on him. If those reasons were more substantial I would be concerned.

[diddin]

Unvote

Tasky's play resemble's a townie a lot more. He is finally contributing to the game and making stances. I'll still keep a close eye on him, thought. For example, I thought his ISO of diddin and vezokpiraka contained some unecessary information, especially the points where he passes them off as null tells, those can be cut off unless he has something worthwhile to say about them. Looking forward to hearing more out of the slot.

I also need to re-read the thread to see if I can bring anything else to the table and mention who I think should be the play for ToDay.

@diddin: ISO: 9: Why have you decided against defending your actions that I brought up against you?

At the time, I thought Oso's thing on tasky was solid, so I voted him. I unvoted because vezo was acting scummier and Tasky started acting a lot more pro-town.

[KageLord]

I would be ok with a vezok lynch today. I still think SSBF looks scummier, but vezok certainly has a good enough case against him to be lynched today.

If you believe this, why aren't you voting vezo?

At the time, I thought Oso's thing on tasky was solid, so I voted him. I unvoted because vezo was acting scummier and Tasky started acting a lot more pro-town.

If that was your reasoning, why not vote vezo again? Didn't you leave the vezo wagon because it was moving too fast and you wanted to reexamine it? Well, in my mind, vezo has not given a satisfactory answer yet for the backpedaling on the Tasky vote (which was a main reason you voted vezo in the first place, if I'm not mistaken). I would think that's enough for a vote again now that we seem to have reached a bit of a standstill and the deadline is a few days away.

And vezo, I'm sorry for your loss.

[KageLord]

EBWOP: The last sentence of that post has nothing to do with the game, in case someone gets confused.

[quadz08]

I would be ok with a vezok lynch today.

I still think SSBF looks scummier

, but vezok certainly has a good enough case against him to be lynched today.

If you believe this, why aren't you voting vezo?

See underlined text.