New York 116 - Prozacs Large Normal - Who won?

[AGar]

Hi.

Didn't expect this to start so soon lol.

Reading another large normal of 90 pages I just replaced into.

Life is grand

[AGar]

In other fun news, after I decided to replace into two games, two games that I had signed up for started, bringing my total number of games I'm playing to 8: 3 newbies, 2 large normals, 2 mini normals and 1 mini theme.

Hi Wraith. Let's see, I also know Sensfan, Diginova, Charlie, Mr. Sandman, Mindgamer and Lowell.

'Ello, all.

[AGar]

@Benmage - Yes, I'll be quite alright. I'm good at juggling these types of things.

[AGar]

WOO TROLL!

[AGar]

VOTE: Diginova for trying to push policy lynches on page 2.

[AGar]

VOTE: millar13 for both being the only non-bolded player in the player list,

and also on policy

.

Do explain.

It was mainly an RVS joke, but have you ever

PLAYED

a game with Millar? He insults players and uses constant craplogic.

Confirmation bias is scummy.

[AGar]

Vote: Zorblag

Because I find him annoying.

Troll is awesome. Awesome players are townie. Players who attack townie players are scummy. Therefore, players who attack awesome players are scummy. Therefore, you are scum.

One scum found.

VOTE: Fugitive

The rest of you can out yourselves now.

[AGar]

Vote: Benmage.

Agar, how serious is your vote?

As serious as I feel this question you're asking should be. Meaning not serious at all.

[AGar]

Joke posts? Null.

[AGar]

Ok, it's official. Fugitive is the VI.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Wraith

[AGar]

EBWOP:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Wraith

[AGar]

VI is not worth a lynch anyways. More votes on Wraith bandwagon gogogogo.

[AGar]

Cuz he's uber-scummy.

[AGar]

woo gunslinging... also, since benmage's signature tells me to, I guess I will blindly follow him...

Unvote: Charlie
Vote: toon fighter

Unvote
Vote mothrax

I do not like your sheepish behavior. Benmage was at least random, your reasoning is just bad (derp, BMs sig told me to do it).

Looks like someone wants to end RVS and start srs bznz. Done deal.

Toogeloo - do you feel that mothrax's vote was indicative of scummy behavior, anti-town or RVS shenanigans?
Fugitive - Do you believe that I was actually defending Troll in the game? Are you aware that I am a fan of Troll in general? Also, do you feel my vote on Wraith was indicative of any alignment?
mothrax - If you dislike the RVS, why were you trying to prolong it? Why not attempt to end it by calling a player on the carpet and being forceful?

Fugitive isn't VI. He is slightly townie though. He was attempting to end RVS by calling out my shenanigans, just wasn't forceful enough in his attempts. I didn't really take them 100% seriously.

For the record, all of my votes were intended to gauge reactions. Not from the players they were on, but instead from other players who might have followed my lead or called me on the carpet. All of them were bad votes with crap-logic. All of it was intentionally done in order to see how players would react.

I'm returning to my vote on Diginova now. That vote was semi-serious at the time.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Diginova

Because pushing some policy lynches is scummy. They deter the town from scumhunting, they give no vote patterns and they overall don't do very much to set up for the future of the game. I don't believe your backtracking to say it was an RVS joke, mainly because you still emphasized why you would like to policy lynch the player. When the slot changed hands, you got back on your fencepost.

I'm serious this time when I say I'm happy with this vote and a bandwagon on Digi.

[AGar]

How was it not an RVS vote, when the vote itself was prefaced by "for being the only non-bolded player in the player list"?
It was the first post in the game, on someone who hadn't even confirmed, that I mentioned just twice and then stopped saying anything about?
I agree that pushing policy lynches is a scumtell, but I was not even attempting to push it at all. Thus why once he (actually, his replacement) posted, I removed the vote.

In addition, what is it with mothrax and AGar constantly mentioning "getting RVS moving" as well as ending it in the same post? RVS is not some fixed phase, and there is no reason to wait until other people want to end it before posting reads. It ends when enough discussion has occurred for useful analysis. AGar, why did you wait until someone else wanted to move out of RVS to post your reads instead of taking initiative?

For the first part:

I'm assuming you mean your first post in the game. But the preface could easily be forced to mask a true intention. If it was an RVS vote, why bring up the policy at all? And why follow it up with any justification?

For the second part:

I've mentioned "getting RVS moving" and ending the RVS in one post together, and I was questioning mothrax about it. Nice try though. And I didn't end it myself because I was able to garner reads on other players' alignments by who tried to prolong RVS and who tried to end it quickly. By trying to end it myself, I gain nothing in the form of reads, or a lot less at best. By letting someone else end it, I was able to see who wanted to get down to business.

Note that I was not attempting to prolong the RVS myself, rather I was going with the flow. I also deflected the first attempt by fugitive in order to see if he was simply scum trying to set himself up to look townie or a townie themselves. If he was the former, he would've made the one not-so-forceful attempt and continued with the RVS if it failed. However, he kept at it, kept applying pressure. +Town points for seriously trying to end the RVS. Toogeloo seems leaning +town as well, as he was fairly forceful in his attempt to end the RVS.

[AGar]

This seems like a null tell to me.

What seems like a null-tell to you? BE SPECIFIC.

[AGar]

Mmm. I'm comfortable with my vote on Diginova. I don't necessarily see the probing Troll is seeing.

Charlie, explain what was the null-tell I asked about? Also, why is page 3 null to you?

Will post more later. Will be out of the hospital and have access to a normal computer soon enough.

[AGar]

Fugi, why are you openly randomly bandwagonning right now exactly? You're basically extending the RVS, which has already been said is only beneficial to scum.

[AGar]

Digi has disappeared since the wagon got rolling on him.

How have I disappeared since the wagon got rolling? I've given my suspicions, yet I don't see anyone worthy of a vote. I've already stated my suspicions and explained the facts behind the reason the bandwagon on me started in 75 and 79.

If I get to L-1 I'll claim, and if I see a post that I really don't like, I'll call it out, but not much is happening for me to comment on right now.

So you're going to lurk the whole time? Cool story bro.

Call it whatever you want but it doesn't fit as a RANDOM VOTE (RVS). Random reason, yes; random vote, no. It's a wagon vote, which helps town put pressure on individuals and promotes discussion. It was guised under the pretenses of being a random/bad reasoning to gain reaction. I didn't like mothrax's response to my vote so I kept it.

It's a vote that had no reason, and it didn't add anything to the game. The only discussion that was promoted was focused on yourself and why a pro-town player would do that. You're lucky Digi is looking scummier right now.

Wraith is V/LA, btw. That's the only one I know from the player list.

[AGar]

Digi's 133 revised:

I'm going to sit here on my fence because I don't want to get off of it and commit to anything because that could backfire and then my scummy ass might be lynched.

Also, Digi does not understand deflection.

Claim is interesting... but not sure how I feel. L-2 was not the right time to do such, however.

[AGar]

FoS: Wraith

Because he's fence-sitting and stalling L-1... Keeping a close eye on him.

[AGar]

unvote

, reasonable claim.

vote charlie

unreasonable overreaction.

Uh... sorry, but what reaction?

[AGar]

Just a question: Wouldn't a scum jailkeeper be a bit of a bastard role?

Wraith is reacting funny to a FoS. Definitely looking a bit scummier. To Wraith directly: You're admitting to not having an opinion. That's fencesitting. You're stalling, not because you're saying that we should wait and promote discussion, but because you're putting a time-limit on it, and setting a goal before we should be doing anything decisive. If you really wanted discussion, you'd promote it. And I can't help if you're scummy in every game I'm in.

@Troll - I didn't think it was really scumhunting, but I could see it as such. It's a point.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Wraith

[AGar]

Oh, whoops.

Unvote

Leaning toward AGar as scum. Pushing an early lynch is a scumtell, and he's trying to get rid of me because I'm trying to prevent the early lynch.

Vote: AGar

Did you even read my last post?

I said it was scummy for you to stall because you're setting a deadline for us to take action. Waiting and letting discussion develop is great. But saying "We need at least X pages before we lynch someone," sounds like scum just trying to buy time. You also set a window of opportunity for scum to active lurk by saying "We have 4 more pages before we're doing anything, so I've got nothing to say right now." THAT is why I find what you're doing scummy. So cut the OMGUS and flailing.

And I'm not pushing an early lynch. I'm pushing for the town to be aggressive, and if a lynch comes a bit earlier, so be it. Early lynches are only bad for the town if they are done in a quick manner and no discussion is promoted. You could have 4 pages of stellar, in depth discussion, mislynch on D1 and be better off in D2 than a town that has 20 pages of useless discussion and a handful of lurkers that lynches scum D1. 5 well thought out pages are always going to be better than 15 wasted pages. The town has been discussing quite a bit right now, it's not like we're averaging 2 lines a post.

[AGar]

Anon.

No seriously, not yet.

Why are you stalling on any content production? It's looking mighty mighty suspect right now.

[AGar]

...

No.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Charlie

[AGar]

Benmage - what do you think of Charlie's general attitude and lack of contribution thus far?

[AGar]

Lowell lurking is null - it seems to be site-wide.

[AGar]

Ooh, I think you might just be mafia for that last comment + vote, CCARaven4.

You may not like my play, that is fine...but I'm anything but anti-town at D1 page 8. This is a large game. Some people say things, others choose to observe. Granted, the observers are more likely mafia but so much more unlikely at D1 where the sample size is large. I have some free time, I'll get cracking at these 8 pages. I'll be a little bit psychic and say it'll be a null read on most people!

-Charlie

Your fencesitting is worthless. At BEST you're being anti-town with your pre-conceived notion that everything will be null. At worst, you're scum sitting around and trying to stall until nothing happens.

[AGar]

Because he's fence-sitting and stalling L-1... Keeping a close eye on him.

Stalling L-1? Seriously? You really think Digi should have been lynched at that stage of the game? Also, why are you mostly ignoring the claim?

RTFT.

L-1 is a pressure cooker for making scum break, and as long as you don't have idiot-town, it'll work out in the end. Wraith was saying "No one should be at L-1 until we have 8 more pages." Why does it have to be 8? Why couldn't digi be put at L-1 right then and there? Why not push him a little harder?

Waiting and letting discussion develop is great. But saying "We need at least X pages before we lynch someone," sounds like scum just trying to buy time

Not quite. I'd say it looks more like fail logic. Scum doesn't like buying time D1 if they are not a major wagon (which he wasn't). It does look like you making bullshit points though. And you did say that he is scummy for trying to prevent a L-1 (thus suggesting that it should have happened) so unless you are suggesting a scum-team including both Wraith and Digi your theory is crap. You should know better and that makes me think that you do know better.

First of all, if scum all followed the exact same meta, we'd catch them every game. It's called a meta-shift, and also scum trying to appear to be townie too hard (that's a perfect example).

And, no, my theory isn't crap if I'm not suggesting a Wraith/Digi scumteam. Wraith could be scum trying to appear very townie by promoting extended discussion and also trying to deter a Digi wagon if he knows Digi to be town. That was the theory, that was what you're missing in my points.


Hmm Charlie - if you'd read the thread, you'd know I also suspect Wraith (although that's dropping fast) and Diginova to a lesser extent. I'm not 100% sold on the claim, and I never said I was. Stef is also trying to force pro-towniness and trying to misrepresent players with her posts.

Lowell's post is null-tell. He does that regardless of alignment.

[AGar]

Does Benmage have a history of playing with Lowell? Because otherwise, he probably won't know that Lowell is basically just an easy target for scum to policy lynch later on.

[AGar]

D1 is the most opportunistic time to do this.

No. A million times no.

D1 is the worst day for policy lynches. It gives town next to no reads. At all.

Playstyle policy lynches are hilariously bad for town.

Pegging you up a few notches atm.

EBWONPreview:

I saw it, and it didn't click with me for some reason. I remember it now that I re-read it.

I still don't agree with it.

[AGar]

Like what? Vote patterns are useless, connections are useless. All you have is people who opposed and people who supported and their reasoning, and often that is linked to playstyle, not alignment.

Your perception of policy lynches is hilariously bad.

And yes, I realize he is a dilemma. But you know what, scum pushing the policy lynch on D3 - you at least have reads established by then on scummy players and associations from flips and vote patterns. You're basically suggesting we do this and end up back in D1 tomorrow. It's like a no-lynch, only a player dies.

[AGar]

Charlie, why more votes on Wraith?

@Troll - Good point about the claim. I've spent way too much time in newbie games, so I'm trying to branch out, heh. Some roles I just don't get right off the bat.

[AGar]

agar

I am afraid of your gut. leaning town on you here as well.

lol.

In other news... Charlie lynching would be mighty fine today.

[AGar]

Charlie, I'm not stupid. I get that you're pushing for a lynch. I'm asking why. Why do you find him scummy?

Mr Sandman - Pressure votes fail to be pressure votes when you announce that pressure votes are pressure votes.

[AGar]

I'd like some comments on my case against Lowell, please.

I think the case against Lowell can be boiled down to laziness.

You replaced Fugitive. I suspected Fugitive and Lowell of possibly being a scumteam. Someone else, please?

You're pushing a case against a player who is notorious for playing a lurky, anti-town game regardless of alignment. A player that one other player in the game is trying to policy lynch. A player who is better served as vig bait.

You're taking the easy route.

I'm not gonna wagon on Lowell because it's a useless D1 wagon - he doesn't leave connections or things to follow up on. He leaves a dead end.

[AGar]

Still Charlie as my top suspect. I'm not too keen on Benmage for his pushing of a bad policy lynch.

[AGar]

Here's an idea:

Benmage wagon.

He initially tried to push a very scummy policy lynch on Lowell for reasons that do not benefit the town in the least bit. Since his policy lynching attempt has all but failed, Benmage has disappeared. I know he's blaming the /in-vitational game for taking up his time, but the game really wasn't that much of a time constraint, and it got shut down. Two days ago. The fallout shouldn't be absorbing all of his time, and he doesn't appear to be in any other games. In other words, he should be posting. And he's not.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Benmage

[AGar]

He initially tried to push a very scummy policy lynch on Lowell for reasons that do not benefit the town in the least bit.

This is an inaccurate statement.

Let me ask you something. Do you value meta at all? Do you ever use it in supplementing cases or gut reads or even defense of players?

I value meta quite a bit. Which is why I'm against lynching Lowell - IT'S FUCKING NULL.

Since his policy lynching attempt has all but failed, Benmage has disappeared. I know he's blaming the /in-vitational game for taking up his time, but the game really wasn't that much of a time constraint, and it got shut down. Two days ago. The fallout shouldn't be absorbing all of his time, and he doesn't appear to be in any other games. In other words, he should be posting. And he's not.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Benmage

Disappeared is such an exaggeration. People get consumed elsewhere. In life, in other games. A few days is nothing. There are also way worse non-contributors than myself. This looks like a pathetic attempt at tossing a vote my way. Again, you love the misstatements for I am in several other games. Did you even bother to look, because it should've been soooo easy to see this. But you just like to make baseless statements to make your points sound better. It’s quite the fallacy.

Actually I did. You aren't in any of the queues that list players, and I didn't feel like going through every open and large theme. So apparently you're playing in 3 of them, but regardless, you're only excuse for taking time away was "invitational was interesting and distracting."

[AGar]

So I should let you know every time I'm wiping my ass?? Are you serious right now with this crap. The invitational ate my time keeping me away from here. You can't argue that. Should I list everything that distracts me? Clearly you aren’t worried about the last line about the invitational alone being interesting and distracting or you wouldn’t have looked to see if I was in any other ques/games. So your point now that my other games and RL is null…is bullshit.

You've wholly overreacted to the fact that I said you went under after your attempt at a policy lynch went under. My point may have been proven null, but it gathered fruits of its own. Why are you so concerned about one statement. You could've simply brushed it off, said "Nah, I'm pre-occupied. Chill." Instead,you've flipped your lidd.

@Agar what do you think of Wraith's vote on Lowell?

I've commented on this. Read the thread.

@Agar what do you think of Anon?

Anon is interesting, pretty weird player. Needs more content to get a read.

@Agar what do you think of the other players saying Policy lynches D1 are the best time for one. And or would be for a policy lynch.

I think I made it pretty clear.

Could you also say when you think would be the best/most ideal time to lynch a player like Lowell.

When an informative role has targeted him with an alignment, or not at all when he bites a vig-kill. Better solutions for lowell than just policy lynching. Only thing is, scum would need to policy him, as a false cop claim with a guilty would out them and a NK would be wasted by scum.

[AGar]

Feck, this didn't post with the rest.

I meant to say in the top part with the valuing of meta. That you just witnessed a game, yes get mith-ended, that had me as a townie pushing an early policy lynch. Just cause you couldn't grasp my points or see eye to eye with me there, or here, doesn't make me scum nor early policy lynching scummy.

I was town there, does that weigh into your beliefs about this game at all?

No. And you're an idiot if you think meta-ing can be done off of one alignment only. Actually, it's pretty suspicious that you'd be suggesting that. You've been around for a while, you should really know how meta works.

[AGar]

Ben, I'm not re-highlighting my stance on Wraith's vote, because it should've been seen if you were reading.

For the rest of your post. Anon hasn't posted enough for me to glean a read. Pushing a policy lynch is pretty telling to me. You haven't recovered and shown me that you're acting any more beneficial to the town, so I'm not sure why I should all of the sudden drop my read on you. Anon has lurked. I'm not big on LALurkers. I'm not giving you a list of my reads as to who is town/null whatever, because that's, in my opinion, one of the worst things a town can do. If scum want Lowell gone, the only way is to policy him. You seemed to have missed that point. You may be right, scum probably don't want him gone. But a vig or an investigative role can also target him and clear it up very quickly. Your hypothetical about Lowell, you've given me only 2/3 of the options. Who's the last player? How have they behaved? If there's someone who's been clearly pro-town, I'll vote Lowell. If they've behaved clearly scummy, I'll vote them. If they're reading neutral and so is Lowell, I'm forced to go on gut, but then again, half of all LYLO situations usually come down to gut anyways. Usually if you're in LYLO, it's because you're either a liability to town because of your behavior or you've been dead wrong about your reads anyways.

[AGar]

Oh wait, missed a part.

Again, my point here was to test your capacity to see if this knew knowledge even touched or imprinted upon your beliefs. Which I can see your stubbornness with be quite the fault. I have a wonderful understanding of how meta works. And moreover a much better understanding how scum work. Like in the game you just witnessed, no scum would’ve sought after the unnecessary attention I was. As in this game no scum is going to push a D1 policy lynch. Most as people have agreed upon that scum look for the easy lynch later on in the game. I can show you more examples of games where I’ve policy’d or tried to policy as town. I don’t think I actually have a meta of doing them/attempting to do them as scum, but you’re welcomed to look.

I'm not going to meta you on your request. I'll meta people when I see fit to meta people. For the rest of your post, I'll have none of your WIFOM as a reasoning of why you wouldn't do it. There's a lot of things that "no scum" are going to do that someone as scum has done. So get off the whole "OMG NO SCUM DOES THIS, I DID IT, I CAN'T BE SCUM."

[AGar]

Actually, Toogeloo - directing a vig to bite Lowell is a good move. We don't have to waste a policy driven lynch on him.

[AGar]

I don't like Stef's sure-thing attitude about people's alignments.

But I also don't think we're heading down the right path with Benmage. Sure, I still think it's scummy as hell for someone to push a policy lynch on a player on D1, but I also have nothing else to go on other than an emotional reaction to a vote, which also seems null in context.

Wraith, on the other hand, has re-surfaced on my radar. He had dropped for a bit because he seemed to be making some progress, but now he's going backwards, voting for players he finds "townie" and "neutral" and just really using crappy logic in his gameplay.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Wraith

[AGar]

@MOD: Can we have an up-to-date votecount?

I'm going to be V/LA with more emphasis on the V from Friday the 6th through Sunday the 8th.

I don't like how the town is still split into 30 different lynching paths. We need to settle on one and lynch someone or we're going to be screwed in the coming days. At this point, I don't care who it is. I really hate that it's come to this, but we just need to come to a consensus on a lynch asap.

[AGar]

We are not lynching Benmage.

Are you saying in the event that it was Benmage or a no-lynch, you would choose no-lynch?

Wraith wagon is at L-6. Let's get more votes there, it's a good wagon.

Mothrax, stop dicking around and get on a wagon that will lead to a lynch.

[AGar]

Hi Oso.

[AGar]

I don't like how the town is still split into 30 different lynching paths. We need to settle on one and lynch someone or we're going to be screwed in the coming days. At this point, I don't care who it is. I really hate that it's come to this, but we just need to come to a consensus on a lynch asap.

While this is a qft I'm surprised that you of all people would suggest such a thing. Why aren't you pushing for your strongest scum-read at the moment? More importantly, who is your strongest scum read again?

I am. My vote is on Wraith. I've encouraged people to get on the wagon.

And I'm not saying let's just randomly pick a name out of a hat and wagon him. I'm saying that we should all decide on one of the leading wagons (mothrax, Wraith, I think you have had some support, Stef) and we should move in one direction rather than keep fighting for our own wagon to win. Town has to make sacrifices sometimes, and that may mean dropping what you are thinking is sure scum to ensure that we get a lynch in. No lynch is awful territory for town to start in.

The good thing is we have an extra 6 days.

[AGar]

Post #502. Just one more reason you should be voting Wraith right now. Total and complete fence-sitting, refusing to take a stance, and a lot of words to put forth no real opinion. IIoA if I ever saw it.

[AGar]

Post #502. Just one more reason you should be voting Wraith right now. Total and complete fence-sitting, refusing to take a stance, and a lot of words to put forth no real opinion. IIoA if I ever saw it.

What's IIoA? And yes to more Wraith votes, please.

Information Instead of Analysis. A Tar's Standard Tell.

[AGar]

Oh yeah, and

V/LA August 6th through 8th. I won't be posting until late Sunday night.

[AGar]

Furcolow, by any chance do you know a person here on MS who goes by the username of razorback?

no, at least, not on this site.
i play on teamliquid, where agar has played before.
i'm a pretty bad player, but i'm trying to get better

Who are you? I'm interested to know.

And also, I'd just like to see the day ended.

@Wraith - The reason I'm "ignoring" (I'm not) those posts is because it's the same thing I saw in the newbie game. Useless and forced, faked content. Pretty confident to believe that you're scum.

[AGar]

Wow. Really?

-_-

Also Furcolow - not really that intrigued to guess. If I don't know who you are, I'll just assume you subscribe to the L/Ace school of thought of mafia and operate under the assumption that you are bad at mafia (not to be confused with Bad at Mafia, which is awesome-sauce)

[AGar]

VOTE: Toogeloo

[AGar]

VOTE: Toogeloo

What lovely reasoning to go along with said vote AGar.

Worried?

- Buddying up to benmage hardcore, defending him from anything and everything that you can find.
- Hypocrisy about the lynch that you were on.
- Borderline tunneling on mothrax for a good period of time now.

[AGar]

I like the thinly veiled OMGUS Charlie.

Toogeloo's response was copacetic. Willing to explore other options for now.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Charlie

Toogeloo - Here's an idea about something from the Wraith flip. Charlie wanted to see Wraith's lynch through, but couldn't provide a case. Who can't provide cases on people they know to be town?

[AGar]

Well by my count, that's only L-3. Tubby still has plenty of time to come in and post analysis, thoughts, etc etc.

[AGar]

Charlie's at L-1. Would love to see intent to hammer right now, I do say.

Otherwise, I'm just keeping an eye on this. Mothrax's latest posts are pinging my radar, as he's really just trying to avoid doing anything other than slap attacks at Toogeloo. Interested to see what Stef comes forth with, and if CCAR/Troll are gonna make any input at this point :/

[AGar]

How am I suffering from tunnel vision? Do explain, please?

And I'm apparently too quiet to be town.

I don't like Charlie's play, but I do respect the wishes to extend the day, and I'm definitely in agreement with that.

I don't like Tubby's constant promising of content and not coming through, but that's always read null to me. I'd rather see a replacement in the slot than lynch him at this moment, because we don't have anything to go off of.

Stef going after Tubby reeks of scum going after an easy lynch. Toogeloo's vote at least makes sense and has backing. Disliking my earlier read on Toogeloo.

Hoping to see more Benmage soon, he at least is active and promotes some original thinking.

Mothrax 673 is sooooo awful.

"I will hammer someone I think is town."
"I will do what you all want me to as a good townie."

Here's a start - scumhunt, or we'll lynch your ass. Seriously.

Charlie shutting down is unfamiliar to me. Going to need to meta him for some thoughts.

Wish Troll was about.

[AGar]

mothrax's 708 is more craptacular posting.

Let's break it down:

- He wants to vote for who he thinks is scummiest, because that's how he thinks he will appear pro-town. But he doesn't think Charlie is scummy. But he will vote for Charlie.
- Quantity over quality.
- Oso's claim is bad. And let's stall out until deadline again.
- People aren't responding to Troll's pressure votes. This is scummy on Troll's part.
- Votes tubby for not producing content. WHERE'S YOURS BUD?
- Tries to play the newb card.

@Troll - I haven't considered it active lurking thus far. I consider active lurking to be more "I have nothing to say, but I'm reading" or appearing to post content. I agree we definitely need more from him, and it is beginning to frustrate me, but he's not acting the same as, say, Mothrax or Charlie, who are both insisting that they are scumhunting, but not.

@Charlie - How am I a brick wall? Want to put a little more effort into your posts? If you're really a VT, you're not doing much good at convincing us otherwise.

@Oso - I do not feel the information needs to be shared atm.

[AGar]

2.)

FoS: AGar

. I do not like how you accused Wraith of “taking the easy route” (Post 292) when he suggested a scum-team of Lowell and Fugitive (because they are lazy / lurky) while in the next breath your only suspect is Charlie (for apparently being lazier / lurkier than his “town” play in the game Anon linked to where he was a Survivor) and you suggest you do not like Benmage solely because he is pushing a policy lynch.

Fact: Scum can get away with pushing a lurker lynch because there is no real analysis behind it, and thus less chance for slips. Opportunistic scum will jump on these wagons, and it's a common mistake for a new scum player to mistakenly get overzealous and go after multiple lurkers.

Also, my vote was on Charlie because he was actively posting nonsense, fluff and bullshit. I called Wraith out for picking two players who had been

lurking

as in not posting.

In my experience, policy lynch discussion is worthless. Nobody

actually

ever gets lynched solely on policy. Hence making it your “platform” just allows you to fill up the thread with contributions that let you get away with posting without actually scumhunting. Players’ positions on policy-voting are positions held by the

player

, not the

role behind the player

.

What is the point of saying this? That Benmage filled up the thread without contributions?

I was in a mini once, where a policy lynch came about on D1 and greatly benefitted scum as we lynched possibly the best shot town had at nailing any scum, and gave scum a flawless victory. In fact, I've never seen a policy lynch lynch scum before. I'm not here to lynch players I think will be a liability in LYLO. I trust myself and my skills enough to not worry about someone like Lowell in LYLO.

AGar suggests that policy-

vigging

of Lowell (the person Benmage was policy-voting) is acceptable in Post 388. Although there are differences between policy-lynching and policy-vigging, the two are similar enough, and it even gives AGar a reason to direct a possible Vig away from him (and possibly away from his scum-team). From experience, I know very well that scum love directing Vigs.

I did, because Benmage had been adamant about not keeping Lowell around. I refused to get behind a policy lynch, but vig kills often show very little analysis anyways. It's obvious that it didn't matter, no?

On another subject, I disagree that Wraith’s posting was “Information without Analysis.” Wraith had more analysis than most players in the game, and in fact, gave more stances than

all

players in the game. You are simply using a “tell” without looking to the reasoning behind it: Wraith was putting in the work, coming to conclusions, and explained his conclusions. That is not “without analysis.” Simply because his posts contained a good deal of information (by summarizing players by post), it does not follow that his posts were therefore lacking analysis.

Really? I didn't see any analysis until he really got pressured, at which point, in my eyes, all of his scumhunting was reactionary and tainted.

I like the contradiction petroleumjelly makes about repetition, where he soft-accuses Benmage for it, but does it himself when his case on Tazaro doesn't hook after, y'know, one night.

Trying to force the information out of Oso doesn't sit well with me. "At the very least it tells us who couldn't have sent in the kill last night."

Ok, so it tells us, at the very most, which scum DIDN'T get selected to send in the kill then. Brilliance...

Charlie answering questions with questions is useless, like he is.

PJ is ticking me the wrong way with this one.

[AGar]

Mr. Sandman, I do not believe Oso is Town. What I said is that if I am correct about Tazaro being scum, that Oso is probably not scum with Tazaro. When I originally replaced, I thought Oso was the scummiest player in the game. Now I think Tazaro is the scummiest player in the game, and his alignment necessarily bears on Oso's probable alignment. How does this "discredit" my opinion? If Tazaro ends up Town, there is a fair chance I will headed straight back to Oso.

Nicely done, here.

"I think A is scummy and B is scummy, but A and B can't be scum together. I'm gonna vote for A, but if he flips town, then B is likely scum."

Leaving yourself with options, I see.

And I don't buy into Tazaro-scum. Much more inclined to see Charlie-scum or you-scum.

You've tried too hard on the whole "Troll is scummy for misunderstanding JK" thing, which without any confirmation of which JK it was, isn't inherently scummy at all.

You've cleverly masked your tunneling on Tazaro today with an out to Oso if Tazaro mislynches.

You've inexplicably linked Taz to Ben with a backwards case - as Oso pointed out, your own link suggests Taz-scum/Ben-town not Taz-scum/Ben-scum, and with that, set yourself up with an option for tomorrow no matter how Taz flips.

[AGar]

@PJ:

For point 1, the scum motivation I see is setting up for a mislynch and then another lynch, like pre-eminent knowledge. It's not too often I see townies say "If A flips town..." when they're voting for A. I don't like the perceived lack of confidence in your vote.

For point 2, the problem is you're trying to apply your own scum meta to the situation. I usually leave players who nail me down be and let them live unless they're obstinately pro-town. The tactic you use is not a majority tactic. It may be 50/50, but it's not used enough for me to buy into it.

However, the recent response shows a lot more town-oriented thinking than I had perceived, and virtually no scum motivation that I can find. I still like a Charlie lynch, but with Taz's recent posting, I'm not vehemently opposed to his wagon. Mothrax is still being superbly scummy as well.

[AGar]

->

a.)

Suppose you are in a scum-team and one lone player has latched onto your scum-team (and not simply "you," as you suggest in your latest post).

When

do you kill them?

The thing is, the longer you wait, the more chances for people to listen. The longer you wait, the more likely it is you will have to defer killing them because you have to kill other players for various strategic reasons (i.e. power role claims, confirmed townies, etc.). The longer you wait, the more likely their death will point the finger at your scum-team. Killing people who are on top of the ball

early

is an excellent way to prevent problems

later

.

I wait until they become problematic as a townie, not as nailing me, generally. When I feel that they could nail me down based on their scumhunting and they have the confidence of the town. If one player nails me but the town regards him as a VI or otherwise, or he doesn't have a case to back it up, I generally disregard it. Half of mafia is knowing who is guilty. The other half is convincing people.

Obviously, this is just one tactic -- nightkills can be for any number of reasons. But I think that unless the scum thought Furcolow had a power role, that he was likely killed because of his (and possibly his predecessor's) opinions. Perhaps he was killed because he was completely off (to "frame" somebody), and perhaps he was killed because he was dead wrong. However, Day Two suggests against him being killed to "frame" somebody because nobody (except arguably me) has tried to directly (or subtly) "frame" either Benmage or Tazaro.

You're bordering heavily into WIFOM here, and if you're trying to justify your towniness with it, you're highly mistaken.

Now why do you think Furcolow might have been killed?

I don't really give a flying rat's ass about why he might've been killed. It was the N1 kill. Oso could've jailkept someone who tried to make the scum kill. It could've been a vig kill. It could've been a SK kill. It could have been a lot of things, and I'm sticking away from night-kill speculation for the time being.

->

b.)

How does my latest post addressing you supposedly have more "town-oriented thinking" than my other posts? That post felt like I was just rehashing older posts. This is making me wonder if you just now realized you bit off more than you can chew by attacking me.

You showed the thought process thoroughly, a transparency that hadn't previously been displayed to my liking. Your previous posts went directly from A to Z without B through Y, in my opinion.

->

c.)

What do you think of Toon Fighter's latest post?

What does it matter? He provided a line of thinking similar to yours with "Lynch A first and then depending on the flip, B." Do you want me to jump on him for being scummy too? I believe I provided more than just that for my suspicion of you.

->

d.)

Why is mothrax "scummy as Hell"? I want you to present a clean and crisp case against him. I ask because I currently only have two Town reads, and mothrax is one of them.

You mean the trying to stretch the town until the very last minute, not really participating and actively scumhunting, trying to say he's not defending himself but really is, the delayed OMGUS on D2, the "Woe is me" posting on D2, the inherent contradictions (see ISO #32 and 33 for a great example) and the really bad logic (Zorblag's votes for pressure got no reactions, therefore Zorblag is scummy)? =

Now how about you tell me why you have a strong town read on him?

@Taz - You've been solely on your heels.

[AGar]

You're only being defensive anymore...

[AGar]

AGar,

1.)

I generally detail cases on scum and not on people I think are Town, unless that player is in danger of being lynched. Pre-post edit: Although it looks like you are going to luck out some, because I am explaining some of my reasons for thinking mothrax is Town in the body of this post. I have to say, I am not a fan of your case on mothrax. You can just go ahead and consider this post as “defending mothrax,” since I can see such an accusation coming a mile away.

Pre-empting things, eh? Worried? I wasn't gonna say a word, but since you bring it up...

->

a.)

Why would you ask me to explain why I think somebody is Town? Is this something you normally ask people?

->

b.)

What does it mean to “stretch the town”?

->

c.)

What is wrong with mothrax’s Day Two vote, exactly? He is exactly right: both Toon Fighter and Toogeloo voted for mothrax at the start of Day Two, but immediately switched their votes to Charlie after Charlie hit three votes. His vote was clearly on the theory “these two look like they are in concert” and does not appear to be an “OMGUS” vote. I am not liking how you are trivializing his suspicion as OMGUS when he was clearly voting on reasons other than “they voted for me.”

a) Because I'm curious. I don't think I've ever asked it before, but I've also never had someone go completely against one of my scum reads and call them town. In other words, I'm usually not wrong.

b) stretching the town until the last possible minute before deciding a lynch. It is completely to scums advantage to have deadline sneak up on the town who is twiddling their thumbs.

c) convenient that he votes someone who voted for him as soon as said player switches votes with another player, no?

Furthermore, do you find something wrong with OMGUS? One should be careful with using this term. Observe:

Suppose you have a bandwagon on you with several players. Chances are, not all of those players are Town. So what is wrong with saying, “of all the people who voted for me, X and Y are the scummiest?” A player who has had a fairly large bandwagon on them should be able to vote people who have bandwagoned them without having their votes labeled as “OMGUS.”

Nothing is wrong with it, when you have a decent reason. He does not.

->

c.)

How do you get the impression that mothrax is “not actively scumhunting?” I have gotten just the opposite impression, which is one reason why I think he is Town. Reading his posts, I get the feeling he is constantly questioning his votes and looking over the game.

Point out the active scumhunting? Most of it reads to me as terrible logic, poorly formed votes and self-preservation.

->

d.)

How was mothrax “actively lurking” and “not participating”? At best, mothrax’s posts are not the best-organized posts and many of his earlier posts seem to be written in the defensive (in that they largely address players who are voting him, even though he claims he acted as though he was not overly worried about the wagon on him), but reading them I can definitely see the points he is making, and they are often points that other players are not making.

I don't see the content you see, obviously. I don't see content coming from him. I see promises of content that don't come. Where are those isos?

Not only that, but mothrax took the time to post while he was on V/LA. Just because he does not post walls it does not mean he has avoided posting. It looks to me like he has averaged roughly a post a day.

So? He posted on V/LA. Big friggin' whoop. And not posting walls doesn't make someone scummy. Walls in themselves benefit scum more than town. But that's an MD argument.

His posts have not have content, in my eyes.

->

e.)

Iso-Posts 32 and 33

contradictory

? Iso-Post 33 was actually the post that “hit home” to me – it looks to me like a classic breakdown (which I have experienced before as well) of a townsperson who feels like they are shouting into the wind. This is not to say I

approve

of the attitude in the post, but I do not find the attitude

scummy

. Allow me to explain:

After Iso-Post 32 (where mothrax gave his suspicions, and said he did not approve of voting for a player he thought was Town), Toogeloo called mothrax “blind” and soon attacked him in Post 668. AGar (you) similarly attacked mothrax in Post 670. Combined, your posts from mothrax’s point of view had the effect of “you are useless.” At that point, mothrax made Post 673, which was to me, a “fine, I give up, apparently nothing I do is right” post.

Of course

this is going to “contradict” his latest posts, because this was a

giving up

post.

ISO #32, he says he will not bandwagon a player he thought was town.
ISO #33, he says he will vote for who we tell him is scummiest, regardless of his own personal read.

That, is a contradiction.

Giving up posts, AtE and the like are null.

So tell me: have you thought to read mothrax’s posts in this context? When I play mafia, I look for the

reason behind the post

. It seems to me as though you are not. I can see perfectly well what led to Iso-Post 33, and I believe it is genuine.

No, I'm just a complete fucking retard with no idea how to play mafia. Derp-de-derp. What's contexts.

You classify these posts as “woe as me,” but I do not find this particular “woe as me” posts as being scummy.

I find it feigned.

->

f.)

About the only thing I agree with you on is that I did think his reasons for suspecting Zorblag were nonsensical. But that is far from “scummy as Hell.”

Really? Bullshit reasons for finding someone scummy? Who does that? Oh, that's right. Scum needs to do that.

The rest of your post is pointless confirmation bias. You've already built up that you find me scummy, no sense in addressing the rest. The placement of the vote is just for show.

Quit spamming the thread with WoTs btw, it really gets annoying after a while. You can make a point without 30 bullet points.

@Toog, don't soft-sell me as scum. Take a stance or don't ffs. Am I scum? Or am I just a suspect so you can have a backup plan at the end of your list?

Petro is an idiot, but likely town.

Still good with the Charlie lynch.

[AGar]

AGar, did you even reread mothrax's posts in context, or did you simply immediately write your post to contradict everything I said in my post?

This is the reason I am not liking you. You do not seem like you are scumhunting. You seem to just immediately react to posts instead of stopping and thinking. Calling me an "idiot" and trying to knock me for "Wall of Texting" (hint: look at my title, which is "thirteenthly, ...") is not going to change how I play, or my suspicion of you.

Herp de derp, nope. what's context???

If you're going to continue to post in WoTs, I'm just going to ignore you. I'm not sorting through 31 bullet points, and if you think your title is an excuse for that, well then good for you. Playing to a bad meta doesn't excuse anyone from bad play.

@Toog - It felt like a soft-sell. And for everyone saying I fizzled out yesterday (because it's been said multiple times)... I really would like to see how. Yes, after a certain point I got sick of repeating the reasons I wanted Wraith lynched. I'd hardly call that fizzling out. I'd be down with a moth wagon. Stef is definitely giving scummy attention. Zorblag, I dunno. I don't like that he's tried to push lurker wagons (active, yes, but lurker none-the-less) and yet he's been a fairly infrequent voice himself so far.

@Mothrax - Your stated purpose was to get behind a Taz lynch. Are you claiming now that this was not the case?

[AGar]

PJ - If you can't glean it from my responses, you're obviously not even reading my posts.

I, like Benmage, am also more in favor of a Charlie lynch, but I could definitely swap to a Mothrax lynch.

For the time being though,

V/LA through Friday

[AGar]

I'mma going to be busy with my college course work today

Wait, night's going to come because of the hammer. I don't have to post in this thread for a couple of days

Also, this really rubs me the wrong way.

Him not needing to go on V/LA rubs you the wrong way?

VOTE: Stef

Poor cases, very flawed logic throughout, and trying to appear pro-town by starting a wagon on a player several players thought were scummy. Nice try with the easy out.

[AGar]

Lowell, I am not calling you lazy, I am saying you have obvwagoned on two mislynches.

Why pre-empt this? What purpose?

@Toog - I heavily disagree with Oso-scum. Lowell's lynch is still meh to me.

I'd much rather lynch Stef, I think we found scum there.

[AGar]

It was inevitable nervous suckas turn the tables on me. It's clear I'm lazy of late (new job, new house). But it's equally clear I'm town. Any questions I'm happy to answer. But any high-minded-theories-that-really-just-come-down-to-me-being-lazy I'm happy to ignore.

I pre-empted as an answer to this.

Ok, didn't follow that.

---

@Lowell - Taz aside, who are your next two suspects, and what have you seen?

[AGar]

Sorry about my absence. Work work work.

Anyways. Lowell's claim strikes me as very odd.

1) I don't like a PR ever claiming that they didn't use their ability, especially because they are selfish and never targeted. The first part isn't playing for a town win-con, the second part is poor because if you aren't going to be targeted, that just increases the chance of absorbing a kill.

2) Lowell was not at L-2, nor was there intent to hammer. I heavily dislike that he claimed this early.

Toogeloo - I feel that Oso has been acting quite pro-town and thinking with the town's best interests in mind, is my primary reason for not seeing the Oso-scum. There's also some other things, but I don't feel it's appropriate to get into them at this time.

[AGar]

L-1, not L-2.

My apologies.

[AGar]

Calling a claim "odd" is pretty weak and scummy. Man up and disagree if you think it's wrong. Stef and Agar look scummy for trying to sucker others into doing their work for them b/c they don't want to look guilty after the lynch. I'm obvtown.

And again, I

do

think my role is more important than masons. Which is confirmed by the fact that no one has tried to kill the masons. So yeah I guess I could have lied and said "OMG masons are so important I protected them with my life!", but it's not really the case. If I were fakeclaiming I would have at least claimed to use my role... geez.

Protective roles are pretty useless until you find somone with some kind of investigative powers worth protecting. Failing that, and if I don't consider myself a likely night target (which I didn't), I think that my play is entirely justified and justifiable.

Part 1 - Odd is my way of saying scummy with a claim, and if you couldn't tell I didn't believe it from my post, then you really need to go back to 1st grade. Nice try weaseling your way out of it, though.

Part 2 - Defending your suspicious actions with WIFOM doesn't make them any less suspicious.

Part 3 - No. Blocking a more important, pro-town player from biting the NK, taking the bullet yourself could be a much better tradeoff.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lowell

Now you are at L-1.

[AGar]

Okay well even if you believe that to be the case, that makes me selfish or wrong, not scum. The fact that you included part 3 at all makes me think you know I'm telling the truth.

No, I included it to tell you your logic was shitty.

[AGar]

Man, brotha' can't even claim his way out of a lynch this game. Brutal. Someday I'm going to make it to endgame and you'll all be sorry.

Apologies all for being less than attentive this game.

What about other games?

Don't talk about them if they're ongoing. It's gotten you modkilled before, you think you'd learn.

[AGar]

Bah.

[AGar]

Funny crosskill, Agar, why me?? I was about to fake cop claim with guilty on Oso and go for the sweep .

I was killing players I didn't feel like playing with anymore. Swear to god.

N1 I targetted Benmage.
N2 Petroleumjelly.
N3 Benmage again.

SK is a shitty role lol. I always wanted to be SK, then this game and it was like "WTF yo?"

[AGar]

And to pre-empt the question: You two were posting too much.