Newbie 985 Game over

[Zachrulez]

/confirm

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, I've seen that before.

[Zachrulez]

Better watch it, lest we catch on later.

[Zachrulez]

Vote: Abe27342

[Zachrulez]

I'll spare you guys any lengthy intro and just provide some helpful info instead.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13273

Highly recommended reading. Also the wiki is a great place to learn and get a grasp on mafia theory on a path to develop your own theory and style. (I like to teach learning rather than a specific style of code of play.)

I've played somewhere around 50 games and I'm still learning. Probably the key thing I could offer to you guys is that you never stop learning in mafia, and you never truly "master" it. It's constantly evolving, constantly changing, so always be open-minded and willing to learn and take away something from every game you play.

Any questions about the above, or anything else in general. Feel free to ask.

[Zachrulez]

By the way, since this is a newbie game, I'll bring up that some people confirm by typing out conform as a joke. (When I said I've seen it before, I was referring to the fact that I've seen other players do it before.) It has no bearing on Parker's alignment.

[Zachrulez]

I think Abe's actually a good place to start with a bandwagon. His pre-game actions on Parker are worthy of further investigation and discussion.

[Zachrulez]

There's being pro-active and being pro-discussion, and then there's trying to appear pro-active and pro-discussion.

You line of inquiry and discussion doesn't lead to any genuine scum hunting IMO, it's actually a line of discussion that can easily take the town off track.

[Zachrulez]

You didn't close the bold tag, you just used another one.

[Zachrulez]

What do you think about Abe's paragraph, Zach?

What do you think?

The explanation could be acceptable. I'd need to see more of Abe's playstyle to make an informed judgment about that, but as it stands now I still don't like the action itself from pre-game.

[Zachrulez]

Zach: I think he's town. If he were scum, I don't think he'd say that he knows you're fishing for reactions before unvoting, and instead just unvote and let you have your reaction.
Could you ride the fence any more with that post, Zach?

Unvote.

Do you want me to try?

Really, I'm not in a position to make a good judgment on him based on that explanation alone. I want to see more from him before I decide whether or not I should write the action off.

Also it would be helpful for me to see how others react to this whole exchange, which is key to deciding where he, and others in the game fit.

Anyway, early indication is that you're town. I'm basing this off of something I noted on your play-style recently.

[Zachrulez]

I was referring to Nikanor in the last sentence of 53. We have past experience in games together.

[Zachrulez]

Oh trust me, I'm normally much more normal. Make of that what you will.

Like when?

[Zachrulez]

I'm looking for more of a qualification to that statement, as you seem to be admitting to strange behavior, and I'm just curious about what context you consider to be you being normal. Like in Mini 988 for example. Would that be normal you, or this you?

[Zachrulez]

Do you have a problem with bi-polarity?

It's not helpful in mafia games.

[Zachrulez]

I adhere to no single meta.

And yeah... I kinda learned this in mini 988...

[Zachrulez]

His odd behavior got him into trouble in that previous game I have been referring to. (He played 2 roles and got into trouble both times.)

I was trying to figure out if he considered his behavior in that game "normal" as opposed to his strange behavior in this game.

[Zachrulez]

DavidParker
Oh trust me, I'm normally much more normal. Make of that what you will.

Did anyone question your normality and if not should we? Can you also define normal and not normal please? Are we supposed to make something of this statement or is it scum trying to confuse us with irrelevance? I would be very happy if you could answer these questions (don't these smiley's just look creepy lol). Oh and by the way what is this arguing between you and Zach regarding normality and bi - polarity, I don't find it important (if it is can someone please explain how), on the contrary I find it suspicious that an SE and moreover an IC are quarreling over something of little importance as if you are distancing yourselves and trying to appear like active scumhunters.

@NashiNashi, thanks for the info.

You basically cast suspicion on me for inquiring about Parker's normality right before doing it yourself....

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP:

You basically cast suspicion on me for inquiring about Parker's normality right before doing it yourself....

Right after actually... but yeah.

[Zachrulez]

Yes, that is more or less what I did, shouldn't we question everything?

If you find it important yes.

[Zachrulez]

If you find what you're questioning important I mean. And obviously you do, which kinda undercuts your argument that I'm discussing an unimportant subject with Parker.

[Zachrulez]

VOTE: TVELLALOTT

(COMPLETE WITH BOLD TAGS IN CAPS LOCK AS WELL)

I like the way you're thinking.

Unvote: Vote: Tvellalott

[Zachrulez]

@Zach, consider yourself the "piggy in the middle", do you consider yourself worthy of not being interrogated?

(Quite the oxymoron I just created... Oh well)

You can interrogate me all you want. I have nothing to hide.

[Zachrulez]

Zach, to be honest I didn't cast suspicion on your inquiries, I cast suspicion on the reason for the inquiry as I didn't think there was a point in you inquiring and now looking back in retrospect I see that my questions were kinda stupid too (please forgive me I'm a big noob) as they were kind of rhetorical and too philosophical (as in with the what is normal and not normal I was referring to behaviour in the game in general not specifically to David's behaviour).

David was playing the game quite dangerously with his excessive use of humour and devil-may-care attitude and that post of his surprised me mainly due to its seriousness and the fact that no one said he wasn't normal as if his facade cracked.

That's pretty much the crux of the matter. It's not normally important, but it became important to me because he felt it was worth mentioning.

[Zachrulez]

I'm at L-2 I believe.

Yeah... got any thoughts on the game?

[Zachrulez]

Zach, what's your opinion of FakeGod?

He looks legitimately scummy to me. He hasn't been scum hunting aside from a quick comment about abe, but even that seemed to just feel like throwing a quick stance out there where there isn't much to criticize.

[Zachrulez]

Also guys, FakeGod is town.

Why?

[Zachrulez]

I was looking for some kind of actual reasoning.

[Zachrulez]

Zach, what's your opinion of FakeGod?

He looks legitimately scummy to me. He hasn't been scum hunting aside from a quick comment about abe, but even that seemed to just feel like throwing a quick stance out there where there isn't much to criticize.

o rly, why didn't you point this out yourself when you noticed it then?

perhaps you're "going with the flow" in your attempt to look town and not stand out.

Because no one picks up on absolutely everything that happens in the game. I hadn't actually noticed your play until it was pointed out.

[Zachrulez]

Your attempt to make me look suspicious without acting on the suspicions you are trying to create is noted though.

[Zachrulez]

Also... I think I'm gonna

Unvote

[Zachrulez]

Your attempt to make me look suspicious without acting on the suspicions you are trying to create is noted though.

Also... I think I'm gonna

Unvote

So........because I'm trying to make you look suspicious without acting on the suspicions I'm trying to create, you suddenly think I'm town?

......... o.0

It wasn't YOU I unvoted.

[Zachrulez]

Vote: Davidparker

[Zachrulez]

I'm voting you over 163. (And the fact that you've pretty much only been casting suspicions on others without committing a position to a vote.) What's your reason?

[Zachrulez]

Parker, you know no lynch is a bad thing and you know why. You don't need me to explain that to you. With the manner in which you voted for no lynch, and the fact that we seem to have a pretty competent group of mafia players from the get go who ALREADY seem to understand that scumhunting and lynching are the way to go, it's unnecessary to waste time explaining that point.

You're blowing up a non explanation of no lynch into being an issue where it's not, mostly because:
1. A newbie didn't vote no lynch, you did.
2. There really isn't much of a threat of a no lynch actually happening as of now.
3. If there was in the face of an approaching deadline, I would explain then why it's a good idea for the town to actually lynch someone.

On another note, too scummy to be scum is a fallacy, and claiming that your play is baiting is just ridiculous.

[Zachrulez]

I still stand my vote for you DavidParker. You've vote hopped off me because no one else was buying your ploy and now you're trying to build yet another false case. I say you talk too much.

Wait a second, other people are going to explain my votes now??

Last time I checked, I'm the only one capable of explaining my own votes... Oh, and here zach said we were playing with a group of capable players!

You could feel free to give a better explanation for your vote. What I got out of your explanation that I understood was that you intentionally played scummy to "bait me" (Think very hard about exactly what's wrong with that statement.) and that you don't think I'm being a good enough IC by pointing out and explaining game theory things that I apparently should be explaining as standard operating procedure even though no one has asked and everyone but you seems to understand the value of lynching over no lynching anyway. (If a newbie took a pro no lynch stance, you might have an argument. As it was, you did.)

[Zachrulez]

Parker's play and tactics, as horrible as they look, I just have a feeling that he's town. (I've seen that horrible baiting tactic done before, and it's a town playstyle I've seen used by a particularly bad player somewhere else.)

Kalofer's most recent post, in addition to a look at his iso is troubling.

Unvote: Vote: Kalofer

[Zachrulez]

For all you've posted, you've actually said very little about who you actually think is scum.

[Zachrulez]

You don't find that response worthy of voting him Parker?

[Zachrulez]

I took 195 and 198 as a scum claim, so lynching you now quickly isn't scummy.

[Zachrulez]

And you're at lynch -2

[Zachrulez]

Why exactly am I definitely scum?

[Zachrulez]

And why do you want to believe Kalofer is town after he basically claimed scum? That doesn't make any sense. If someone's pretty much claimed scum (As he has done.) AND THEY AREN'T SCUMHUNTING AT ALL YOU LYNCH THEM. It's simple.

[Zachrulez]

yeah, if i was zach-scum, i'd do the same, after kalofer's actions.

and zach, have u not been reading any of my posts?

I have this 8 ball.

It is magical.

You're ignoring a very obvious possibility here.

[Zachrulez]

yeah, if i was zach-scum, i'd do the same, after kalofer's actions.

and zach, have u not been reading any of my posts?

I have this 8 ball.

It is magical.

You're ignoring a very obvious possibility here.

That his 8 ball's really not magical?

That, and the possibility that I am town and legitimately find Kalofer scummy.

As it is, I can practically guarantee that at least one of the two of them is scum. I just can't see any possibility where neither is after the interactions we've seen.

[Zachrulez]

I DID NOT CLAIM TO BE SCUM, honestly I have no idea where you got that from. 195 I posted because I really didn't know where I went wrong and 198 was a joke, I really don't see why you took it so seriously and about me not scumhunting, yeah then what where those large block posts at the start, if that wasn't scumhunting then I don't know what is. I REALLY REALLY REALLY need to know why when someone asks someone where he went wrong they are immediately proclaimed to be scum. Defending oneself in this game is unbelievably hard. If you're gonna lynch me, just get it over with I hate to be toyed with and to help people who want to kill me on my expense.

Who is scum then?

You haven't taken a single firm stance on who you think is scum.

[Zachrulez]

Further in response to 219. Defending yourself is about all you've been doing lately Kalofer.

[Zachrulez]

Hey Parker, you still there?

If you could assign a percentage to how likely you think it is that I'm scum, that would be great.

[Zachrulez]

kalofer is this ur first game of mafia, have u played any on other sites, what experience do u have with the game?

This is at least his 2nd game of mafia. (From looking at his profile on this site.)

[Zachrulez]

i would like a fair assessment of kalofer's induction into the mafia community before rushing into lynch him. to me it seems possible he is noob-town, who thought he was legitimately dead and ppl were gonna bandwagon him, and wanted to know where he went wrong. with that said, i'm leaning towards newb-scum, but still unsure.

Awesome.

[Zachrulez]

Hey Parker, you still there?

If you could assign a percentage to how likely you think it is that I'm scum, that would be great.

100%

Even more awesome... with the post above this one you entertaining the notion of lynching someone else.

[Zachrulez]

We're 10 days into day 1 which is almost halfway toward the 3 week deadline. Would you prefer to simply wait till the deadline gets extremely close and flail votes around on a lynch that we have to get before the deadline hits?

[Zachrulez]

Defending oneself isn't scummy in and of itself. Defending oneself a disproportionate amount of the time in favor of actual scum hunting, pressure and investigation is.

[Zachrulez]

Interesting. Kalofer's stated suspicion of Parker has apparently never been worth a vote, but his sudden stated suspicion of me is.

[Zachrulez]

Subtlety. There's nothing subtle about anything I've done.

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP: Subtlety? There's nothing subtle about anything I've done.

[Zachrulez]

Also, OMGUS is scummy.

[Zachrulez]

Well Abe, in reality it is possible that I am scum and through ATE I am trying to convince you otherwise, Although that is not the case I'm happy it's working.
The gut feeling was what drove me to vote for you Zach because as I said, I consider Parker to be using a certain play style and for that reason I did not find him so suspicious and worthy of a vote.

But you stated earlier you found him suspicious...

You on the other hand I do, mainly because of your carefulness, you have been a lot more subtle, you also pushed for a lynch on David and a lynch on me, yet then after so much quarreling with David you say you have a feeling he's town...wtf?

This is scummy why? Townies change their mind. Parker's recent reactions have me reviewing that assessment. (I think it could be as simple as both of you being scum.)

Now it's true that I have the same feeling but I didn't argue with someone the majority of my posts, push for their lynch and then say "I think he's actually town".

So?

Then you accuse me of not scumhunting even though I would like to believe that I did scumhunt, by voicing my suspicions, not by voting, why should scumhunting only be restricted to voting

Voting is the stongest way to voice your suspicions, it's also the one thing that is most visible when players review the game in later day phases. Voting also gets you noticed, so there is scum motivation in not using your vote much in order to avoid notice. I have seen scum do that before.

Then you start dealing with absolutes, saying I'm definitely scum,

I did? Where?

Why are you not holding Parker to the same standard who declared me scum with 100% certainty? (That sure as hell is an absolute if I've ever seen one.)

that I have claimed to be scum and that for that reason there's no point in wasting time and I should be lynched immediately (by all means if everyone reading this agrees with him, lynch me).

That is the way I interpret those posts.

You could say that this is an OMGUS vote, in fact I'm admitting that it is, but I believe it is a well justified OMGUS.

Here we cut to the heart of the reasoning for his vote.

[Zachrulez]

I should start a wiki page "David Parker's Magic 8 Ball-Like Scum Tells"

1. Multi-quoting.
Lynch anyone who multi-quotes. Especially if they aren't responding to multiple questions. If it is just multiple counter-remarks, they are definitely scum.

Zach is our first scum.

Well that's a new one at least. (I've never seen anyone ever try to argue that multi-quoting is scummy with a straight face.)

[Zachrulez]

I'm not really worried about getting lynched at all, lynch me I don't care, but if you're town you'll be disappointed that's all I'm saying. What i said about AtE leads to WIFOM if I try to explain it. Yup Zach you're right, townies do change their minds, as you have seen I changed my mind in voting for Fake and voted for you. And why are OMGUS votes scummy? I justified my vote, so why is it still scummy. And yes I did find parker suspicious but at most for an FoS not for a vote and that thing about the 100% I consider a joke, there you have it those are my answers.

Because the source of your suspicion is the fact that I'm voting for you, which is a horrible (and lazy) foundation to build suspicion on.

[Zachrulez]

Also after 259, I'm getting this big urge to slap my vote back on Parker. His categorical dismissal of multi-quoting as scummy also just so happens to let him brush aside any points I happened to make in my posts. EXTREMELY scummy.

[Zachrulez]

Then why call it an OMGUS vote?

[Zachrulez]

Voting for a player that happens to be voting for you (If you find the intent behind their place scummy.) is not OMGUS.

If a large part of your case is the fact that the player is voting you (Or if it makes you suspicious of that player all of the sudden.) then it is OMGUS.

[Zachrulez]

How exactly is it that I want to lynch anyone?

[Zachrulez]

FakeGod

- Somewhat scummy: Third on the bandwagon is classic sign of scum... You're playing a good chat game though. I'm mildly suspicious.
Based on all of this, I

VOTE Zachrulez

That's it. Analyse away.

Third on bandwagon is classic sign of scum huh?

Ohhhhhh haaaaaay.

[Zachrulez]

Something else I find scummy about Zach is his response to #268 because he didn't address Tvell's main point which was "Zachrulez has never made an original vote" , but instead started picking on Tvell for saying "You seem to want to lynch someone, anyone. " And "Third on bandwagon is classic sign of scum". In other words he started defending himself from Tvell's opinions in an attempt to turn attention and suspicion back on tvell but disregarded the fact of the post which was the most important part.

"Zachrulez has never made an original vote" is a non point. Just because I don't place the first vote on someone means that my vote is somehow less valid and more scummy? What?

And yeah, I want to lynch scum. That requires investigating and changing my vote accordingly. I do not see how that translates into me wanting to lynch anyone. (I do have town reads afterall.)

As for third on the bandwagon, it's a point against Tvel that's legitimately scummy about him. The fact that he thinks it's as simple as explaining his actions to set himself apart from HIS OWN STANDARD that he applied to Fakegod is just ridiculous.

[Zachrulez]

Zachrulez (IC)

I see Zachrulez as the either character right now, however I am quite disappointed at the mentoring from him so far. There are very little explanation for new players, and he is not encouraging discussions or giving out tips as what I think an IC should be. A link to another topic is the best you can do? Really?

Nor that I am convinced with “I’m not giving out standard game theories because no one asked”. (Post 183) This is a NEWBIE game. In order to even ask the right questions people would need some degree of experience. The IC should be taking the initiatives – be the locomotion choo choo, not the safety net.

He just does not come across as someone who is eager to help throwing the rope. Perhaps a scum who sees winning more important than being IC guide? So far both of the SE had done far more at teaching than he has, and Nikanor had stated right in the beginning that he didn’t want to teach. Ridding of the IC so early in the game is a risky move, and we are at the point that we could get hammered. Hence I'm holding onto my vote until later on, even if my FoS is on him.

Verdict: Likely scum.

The IC role is a role I am required to play regardless of my alignment. It has no bearing on my alignment. The issues you are bringing forth are a clash of styles with the way you expect me to play the IC role vs how I play it. It's also a role that can be influential and be used to a player's advantage when they are actively throwing out the IC term all the time. I don't believe in teaching a standard set of theory and accepted behavior to newbies. I believe more in letting them develop on their own and answering questions about things they aren't sure of along the way.

It doesn't matter what my alignment is, I have chosen to play the IC role in this way because it's what I believe in. (Go read some of my past IC games.)

I'm still a player in the game, and I still want to find and lynch scum. The most important job I have is to actually play mafia and not baby the players along the way. That means I'm not going to take it easy on my suspects just because they're a newbie and I'm an IC if I happen to think that they are scum.

You won't learn how to climb the hill if I do it for you.

[Zachrulez]

I'm treating Nashi's FOS of me as a 4th vote. If there's someone else that finds me suspicious enough for a vote that's not already voting me, they should make that intention clear. I'll work on posting my opinion of everyone in light of this, and if there is enough support for my lynch, all I ask is that I'm not hammered before being given a chance to claim. (Hammering before a claim is terrible play.)

[Zachrulez]

Nashi, how has the game been harmed by my lack of explaining why a no lynch is a bad play? (If someone doesn't understand WHY it's a bad play, then speak up now and I'll explain it for everyone.)

It would be one thing if I was being criticized for this on day 2 after the town had actually voted through a no lynch, but that hasn't happened.

You're just making an issue out of something that isn't an issue.

[Zachrulez]

To be honest, my confidence in Kalofer scum is actually not as high now as it has been before.

I'm actually going to

Unvote: Vote: Tvelalott

I dislike the most his willingness to slap a third vote on someone while being critical of another player for doing this, while initially finding Kalofer scummy and then changing his mind and attacking fakegod for it. It doesn't smell right.

I think Parker has a strong chance of being scum too, he's taking a very non serious approach to the game while being completely confident that I'm scum. (Even stated 100%) It was countered that I shouldn't have taken that seriously, but if I ask a question and get an answer that's what I'm going to do.

Out of all the stances against me, I can kinda see where Kalofer and Nashi are coming from with their suspicions, but I don't understand why Parker is suspicious of me at all, and Tevlalott's reasoning on me is pretty weak overall, as are his stances on all his previous suspects when I took a closer look.

[Zachrulez]

Two OMGUS votes? LMAO! I knew you two were scummy.

If calling my vote OMGUS helps you to pretend that there's no actual reasoning for my vote, then feel free to call it that.

[Zachrulez]

Zachrulez

Can you define "harming a game"? If by that you meant that "your side didn't win", then yes day 1 is far too early for that. Still IMO a newbie game is about guiding and teacher first foremost. On post #12, Nikanor asked you whether you'll going to do an IC intro. You ignored him for 3 posts, then slapped a Wiki and a link in. If that alone is sufficient then why do we need an IC in a game? Anyone can google for those links. You did make some explanations on the first three pages, but after that, it was the SE who did the explaining.

You have a differing opinion. It's key to recognize that this difference has no bearing on my alignment or yours. You suspect me for not conforming to your view of what an IC should be. What you should really be doing is looking at me as if I was any one of the 8 other players in the game and deciding what your opinion of me is based on my play... not by IC standards. Cause making the game about me being an IC and trying to judge me based your opinion of proper IC play isn't scumhunting. I do not try to use my IC role to influence newbie games. I've never played that way EVER as an IC, regardless of what alignment I happened to draw.

Before you take this argument any further, I want you to read my play in these links and decide whether you truly feel like this issue is worth pursuing after seeing my play as both town and scum.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=13465
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=13008
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=11742
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=13761

After reading those links, it should become pretty apparent the things you should look for that are actually signs of me being scum.

[Zachrulez]

And speaking of David, da hell is he?

I'm around, just my 8 ball is in the repair shop so I don't have anything to add right now.

This joke is beyond old now and is not an excuse for your lack of contribution toward any kind of reasoning for your vote.

[Zachrulez]

Where you're "putting me" (as if I'm some household item ) is irrelevant, what's relevant is that you are actually voting for me after Nik asked you to and this leads me to believe that you wanted to vote for me when I was L-2 but didn't...why? And what's the purpose of this vote seriously, just to keep the pressure until Fake and Zach decide to vote for me again?

After having another look at your iso. (and also in light of Tvel's play.) I'm actually leaning town on you now.

I'd urge you to take a closer look at both Parker and Tvel. (Especially their interactions with each other, and Tvel's quickly dissipating suspicion on Parker, whose contributions to the game have dropped rapidly concurrently with this change in read.)

[Zachrulez]

I lol'd.

In case you hadn't noticed I have done the exact opposite of flying under the radar this game. And 0 votes on me! WHOOP WHOOP!

In fact, I might adopt this new playstyle as all my other games I seem to get to L-1 on day 1 for scummy behaviour...

Why do you care that you have 0 votes on you? You've repeatedly brought this up, but it doesn't really have anything to do with anything.

[Zachrulez]

Vote Kalofer

The guy quasi-claimed scum. He is to go.

And I don't mind FakeGod, I'll ignore you too since you are town.

Well that's great. Why did you ignore that point about 7 pages or so ago when I made it?

[Zachrulez]

I would definitely be down for a Parker lynch.

[Zachrulez]

Parker and Nikanor I'm assuming.

[Zachrulez]

Nikanor's avatar is pretty blatantly a bear.

[Zachrulez]

Oh wait no I read that post wrong. For some reason Parker's avi gave me a bear vibe.

[Zachrulez]

Anyway, what makes you think those two might be the scumteam?

[Zachrulez]

I could go either way on Kalofer, but based on his play as a whole and his reactions to pressure, I lean town.

Honestly, I had a fairly scummy read on zombeh initially, and was thinking of switching my vote from zach to him recently, but did a quick iso on him, and everything there gives me a town read on him, Nikanor. What do you find scummy about him?

What's town about him lurking, and pretty much attacking everyone else he goes after with an accusation of lurking?

And Kalofer, basically this is how I understand the events that happened:

People voted you for finding something about you scummy..
You reacted by saying "what did I do wrong?" (without defending yourself)
I said something along the lines of, "oh too bad, better luck next time when you are scum"
You didn't deny being scum, just kept asking about what you can do better to not seem scummy. (ie: semi-claiming scum, imo a town-player here would have denied being scum)

Covered this. His reaction was strange, but I'm less confident then I was that it means scum.

Zach points out more or less how you claimed scum, and gets you under pressure. You finally then deny being scum once you realize you aren't definitely being lynched. It seems you only denied being scum once you realized you weren't being lynched (yet). You are a player who has to be lynched sooner or later, and won't make it to LYLO. With that said, you are also very likely to flip scum at this point (at least from my POV), and because of all this, you will make the best lynch today. (sorry zach, i'll get you tomorrow)

Let me get this straight. You suspect me of being scum, but are still using a case I've made against another player 7 pages ago as a basis that he makes the best lynch, and planning to pressure me tomorrow BEFORE he even flips, presuming that I will certainly survive the night?

Unvote: Vote: DavidParker

[Zachrulez]

I think you need to diescumdie.

[Zachrulez]

So my alignment is dependent on what Kalofer flips but I'm likely scum no matter what that flip is?

Die faster please.

[Zachrulez]

Basically I pretty much think everything you say at this point is bullshit because you previously stated a 100% certainty that I was scum, yet are settling for another lynch now.

[Zachrulez]

Face it, the only thing that's really changed from right before the point you unvoted me was the viability of the wagon. Why push hard to convince people I'm scum when you can back off once it's apparent I'm not likely to get past 3 votes when you can just adapt and focus your efforts on someone who you might be able to lynch without as much effort.

[Zachrulez]

Translation: See Post 399

Explanation (since I assume you are): How can anyone be 100% sure anyone is scum? Unless I am your scum-buddy I have no way of knowing you are 100% scum.

As stated, see #399.

I point you to your ISO #49.

And yes, I actually expected an honest answer to that question.

[Zachrulez]

Face it, the only thing that's really changed from right before the point you unvoted me was the viability of the wagon. Why push hard to convince people I'm scum when you can back off once it's apparent I'm not likely to get past 3 votes when you can just adapt and focus your efforts on someone who you might be able to lynch without as much effort.

Because we are 3 (?) days from deadline and need to make sure we get a lynch. That's why.

And as stated, I was always intending on switching my vote to Kalofer.

I simply don't buy it.

Cool, you expected an honest answer... Guess what, I didn't give one.

Hey, we've tapped into the root of one of the issues with your play here! I think we're getting somewhere now.

[Zachrulez]

That, and you're play in general has been blatantly unhelpful to the town. Your scumhunting has left a lot to be desired, and you've repeatedly been gloating about how you haven't had any votes on you.

[Zachrulez]

Blatently unhelpful is scummy.

Shall we review some of your scumhunting?

OMGUS voting me in a play you claimed was a bait, by playing intentionally scummy and citing that I'm scummy for voting you based on said scummy play. I can't even begin to get into what's wrong with that.

The magic 8-ball, used well after RVS which has allowed you for most of the game to not actually justify any of your play.

Sarcasm and joking behavior in response to serious inquiries where serious responses are desired, which you then use against the questioner as attacking a non serious/sarcastic response. How is that effective exactly? How does any of this actually get you any closer to finding scum. I see more potential to aggravate players actually interested in catching scum to the point where they might actually give up on actually trying to win the game because of your actions. That alone makes you highly likely to be scum.

[Zachrulez]

Kalofer, you wouldn't happen to have a link to the parts of that game where that happens would you? I mostly want one for easier viewing and verification. I've already kinda looked through that game already though and I can see that as a reasonable explanation for your reaction to the pressure. (As an alternative to actually being scum.)

What I did look up previously did feature you heavily defending yourself.

[Zachrulez]

Crap, I didn't notice that game was still ongoing. Still it should be fine since you didn't specifically mention any opinions on any of the players in that game.

[Zachrulez]

@Mod

: Requesting Kalofer be modkiller.

Seriously, you are scum.

As for that paticular issue, I take full responsibility for it. I asked Kalofer for a link I shouldn't have and he just didn't know any better. There's absolutely no reason to modkill him over it given that no actual damage to this game or any other was actually done.

[Zachrulez]

Why exactly did you feel it was necessary to request a mod kill on a player who very obviously made a newbie mistake? Mistakes like that are actually one of the main reasons we have newbie games, to catch and correct mistakes like that before they happen in other games. As it is, the entire incident was entirely my fault anyway.

[Zachrulez]

i requested it cuz i find him scummy and he used a method not allowed to defend himself. ignorance of the rules is not an excuse. ever.

1. Modkills are cheap.

2. A modkill deprives the town of further discussion and of lynch wagon information that we would otherwise get from a full bandwagon lynch.

3. You don't suppose it makes much of a difference that the post that allegedly crossed the line was done so at my request?

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, once that game ends, it will be okay, but in the meantime, we need to drop the issue. I hadn't realized the game was still ongoing until I read the most recent page after he posted the link. I apologize for that.

[Zachrulez]

Anyway, now would be a good time to post your thoughts on all the players in the game and to consider claiming Parker.

[Zachrulez]

Being aware that you're playing anti-town and continuing to intentionally play that way is scummy.

[Zachrulez]

I don't really fault the hammer itself, Parker deserved that lynch... however, stated philosophy and quick hammering by your definition of the discussion you said you wanted before settling on a lynch is a bit bothering.

[Zachrulez]

Zombeh-Pug's ghost magically appears:
"Bahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"
(Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post except for a brief "Bah!"-type post.)

"Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post except for a brief "Bah!"-type post." Erm, Mod just to clarify is he technically allowed to do that cause he did say something more than a Bah post, still it is a harmless opinion but let's say if I die can I say something like that?
Just as expected, Zombeh is killed by the mafia and since he suspected me of being scum I am right now probably the most suspected person of being scum since he is dead (this leads to WIFOM but who cares), however this makes me even more certain that Zach is scum and so VOTE: Zachrulez

How do you figure?

There are probably other good reasons why Zombeh was chosen, though I'd prefer not to get into them.

[Zachrulez]

Just as expected, Zombeh is killed by the mafia and since he suspected me of being scum I am right now probably the most suspected person of being scum since he is dead (this leads to WIFOM but who cares), however this makes me even more certain that Zach is scum and so Zachrulez

How would that make Zachrulez more suspecious?

He probably figures that I killed Zombeh to make him look more suspicious.

I know I'm answering for him, if I'm wrong, he can feel free to correct me.

[Zachrulez]

To answer Kalifor's question about Zombeh's bah post, yes it's against the rules. Once you are dead, you can not post any game related content.

[Zachrulez]

Sorry Kalofer, I butchered the spelling of your name.

[Zachrulez]

I'm going to be V/LA the week of the 9th. I'll be taking a last look at the game then to see if there's anything to address before I go.

If there's anything you guys need from me before then, bring it up now.

[Zachrulez]

I'm thinking theory 3.

Parker was so scummy I don't think that wagon needed 2 scum on it to lynch him.

If there's a scum on the lynch wagon, I'm thinking it's one of Nashi or Abe.

I can't see Kalofer's stance on me being a scum gambit, I think he's most likely paranoid town.

I still don't like Tvel, especially today. His vote is weak, and his presence in thread has been lacking.

Vote: Tvellalot

[Zachrulez]

Ok, I'm back. Kinda caught up.

Still definitely happy with my Tvel vote.

[Zachrulez]

Abe's been active enough.

Nikanor hasn't posted since... the 11th.

Where are you Nikanor? Come and say hi... or something.

[Zachrulez]

Zach, where's the reason, where's the action? You were most active in Day 1 you're officially out of V/la at least tell us if you're having problems stopping you from posting or say something already.

The reason and action for what? I've stated my top suspicion and voted it. What seems to becoming a big part of the discussion regarding tvel is stuff I've been trying to make the town see for a while now.

At any rate, you try having no access for about a week and see how easy it is for you to completely get back into the flow of a game that's been rolling since you've been out of it.

[Zachrulez]

Basically, have some patience. My activity will be going up from here and I have no further V/LA planned for the foreseeable future.

[Zachrulez]

Anyway, based on Kalofer's reactions to everyone, my read of him is getting more strongly town.

[Zachrulez]

And Fake what is the basis of your suspicion of Nik and Abe? I take it as just a bit more than a random vote and right now I feel very disillusioned, everyone kept saying how Day2 is more about discerning but what you're doing seems a game of chance, how about we all just roll a dice and vote hmm? Tvell seems to be implying that by saying we shouldn't listen to "fence sitting crap" etc.

My impression based on what I've seen from Fakegod is that he thinks there's a scum between Nikanor and Abe. Based on their overall activity, I'm not finding the stance unreasonable, and Nikanor's lurking is a bit more unforgivable under the circumstances, so I can't fault the vote.

What I'm more interested in is why Tvel picked Abe over Nikanor. He really hasn't said that much about Nikanor, but he's in a pretty similar position to Abe with his overall activity level at this point.

[Zachrulez]

Zach, last time we voted for and lynched a crazy person and he turned out to be town, I wouldn't want to repeat that mistake but if everyone else is for a tvell lynch I will support it, as for now my vote remains and my FoS on you too as I don't have a strict lynch all lurkers policy.
By the way Mod, how much time does Nik have before a PM or replacement?

Sometimes scummy players flip town. This doesn't mean you should ignore that scummy behavior in others, particularly when they have that town flip as an excuse to get away with such behavior.

[Zachrulez]

No hammer at least until Nikanor gets a chance to post again.

Ideally, we don't lynch him at all. (At least not for what he's being wagoned for.)

[Zachrulez]

ahoy Zach

DP with his dying breath said you're scum, how do you react to this accusation?

What? What does that have to do with anything?

Why do you suddenly think that's relevant to bring up now as opposed to any other previous point of the day?

[Zachrulez]

unvote: Vote: Fakegod

Kalofer is town. Fakegod's looking scummier and scummier in the last page or two. Attributing his read to Nikanor as gut after actively attempting to explain it, telling Kalofer to feel free to disagree with the wagon while actively trying to discredit his dissent. I'm liking fakegod for scum.

[Zachrulez]

Kalofer is town.

How sure are you

Sure enough to assert it.

[Zachrulez]

Sorry, I've been under the weather (and missed 2 days of work) and I haven't really been getting much better.

At this point though there's about a week to deadline and I'd be happy with a fakegod or tvel lynch.

[Zachrulez]

@kal: I'm actually quite intrigued by tvell's experimental playstyle, whether it would be successful in finding us the scum.

The question and answer to this is better suited for mafia discussion, with past game data to illustrate research toward the question.

For this game, it just qualifies as a weak defense that looks like an attempt to take Tvel off the lynch table, and does nothing to help the town.

[Zachrulez]

Bah! Go town!

[Zachrulez]

So yeah, wow. This game taught me a lot. (Which it should have done when sotty did it in gonzo.) Never presume a player clear based on what would appear to be an optimal situation with a split wagon. The presumption of scum being cleared can allow them to easily ride to endgame.

Keep in mind though that in the newbie setup, busing your roleblocker like that can really screw the pooch if you're in the prs setup. Cop and Doc in day 3 alive is pretty much an autowin for town in most situations.

Unless you thought it was likely they didn't exist?

[Zachrulez]

But hey, I was onto Tvel for most of the game... and his lynch would have likely not spared Nikanor... so

[Zachrulez]

If any of you want any specific feedback regarding my take on your play, feel free to ask.

In the meantime. *Burns book of associative tells.*

That's probably the best general piece of advice I can give. Overly focusing on associative tells after the 1st scumflip seems to lead right off a cliff. There are a few exceptions where the associative tells are very obvious, but in most cases, you're better off throwing them out and focusing on standalone tells/scumminess of players. It's one of those things that's very easy to say and very difficult to actually do... but the advice is there anyway.

[Zachrulez]

Nah, all this time I was sleeping lol, I was so liking bear team for scum I guess I wanted Abe to be scum, shows how much I suck though. Tvell if you think that your telling anyone you're convinced I'm town made me sympathise with you, you are absolutely wrong, it actually made me more suspicious of you. However, in the end, you just seemed too crazy and erratic to seem like scum to me. Though what unnerved me more than your defense of me was when Abe started saying he's been sure I was town all this time. Tvell, you played a really good game there, congrats on your win.
And one last time, sorry for the epic fail (I should have known not to vote Abe, when I've been having bad luck all day lol).

Tbh, I probably would have done the same thing in your position. Abe's quick hammer and quick vote really worked against him in the end there, I don't blame you at all for voting the way you did.