Scummies Invitational (OVER!!!)

[q21]

1. Have you played in a Lights Out game before?
2. I give you $200 to place a bet on the first Day 1 lynch, with return odds of 15/1 for each player. Who do you bet on?
3. What do you think is the optimum number of lynches for Day 1?
4. What is your favourite animal?
5. Sum up your playstyle in one sentence.

1. A what?
2. Empking. We should lynch him now and play the game as though we'd only ever had 14 players.
3. 1 + Empking
4. Cat
5. Semi-lurky with irregular flashes of logic, intellect, incisive questioning and decisive action.

Now time to hedge my bets with an Empking vote.

Vote Empking

Really, because as much fun as surveys are I like my RVS.

[q21]

3. What do you think is the optimum number of lynches for Day 1?

It depends whether I get good reads/convinced about scum. 1-2 seems reasonable. Hoopla's commentary seemed reasonable, but I haven't thought about this closely yet.

You're ever 'convinced about scum' on Day 1?

5. Sum up your playstyle in one sentence.

For someone with my persona, mafia is an interesting exercise in overcompensation and rolling from aggressive to uselessly cautious and sympathetic and back depending on confidence/accuracy of reads in recent games.

So how have you're reads in recent games been? How can we expect you to play in this game?

[q21]

Myko - the question about his meta response is simple. He's given an indefinite answer that allows him scope to play in just about any way he likes. I dislike that.

[q21]

Tenchi's had already been pointed out. Ojanen's hadn't. I don't think its a big enough point to vote on for either, so I didn't repeat something that had already be said.

[q21]

The third player and second on my scumlist, q21 made the one vote that I disliked. Empking. If we want to lynch him, we'll get there, but this way was plain wrong.

You thought that was a genuine attempt to get Emp lynched? Really? Wow...


I am of the opinion that Myk has blown CKD's post 92 out of proportion. I dislike that wagon.

[q21]

In other news, both hoops and myko are obvtown and shouldnt be lynched ever. Voting for one of these guys is now considered a scumtell.

I find this to be an unnaturally overt and definite statement for this early in the game, therefore, to test it a little I'm going to:

Vote Mykonian

And see what sort of response that evokes. I've chosen Myko because I feel his ckd case is a little overdone, possibly him trying too hard to paint scum where its not.

[q21]

Actually, Myk, that post wasn't to test pop's response. You're right, if it was I did it badly - completely gave the game away. It was to test yours. I had a slight scum read on you for the ckd case that I disagree with (as stated with my vote) and was looking for a way to either strengthen or weaken that. The knee-jerk OMGUS vote strengthens it.

unvote vote Q21

[q21]

Actually, Myk, that post wasn't to test pop's response. You're right, if it was I did it badly - completely gave the game away. It was to test yours. I had a slight scum read on you for the ckd case that I disagree with (as stated with my vote) and was looking for a way to either strengthen or weaken that.

The knee-jerk OMGUS vote strengthens it.

This post by q21 is scummy.
The description of mykonian's instant no explanation vote as knee-jerk omgus assumes mykonian to be an idiot barely able to control his actions at all. That is not an accurate nor a townish assumption. mykonian was obviously looking for a reaction in a way that has some chance of having effect, (or pretending to do so if he was scum), contrary to q21's "hi this vote is because I want to see a reaction" (whether he would have been looking for a reaction from tajo or myko, saying that one is looking for a reaction pretty much collapses the wave).
Labeling the reaction as knee-jerk omgus is hitting an easy buzzword that only someone thinking of the game very shallowly would use in this instance. I find it hard to believe q21 is sincere about scumhunting here.

unvote
vote: q21

QFT.

Esspecially since I explained my vote in the next post and went back to my original case.

Q21 reaction (OMGUS!) is twisting what was going on, assumes I'm a fool (while he knows I'm not: he was the one nominating me for this scummy) etc. It makes no sense. Unless you are scum and you hope the word "OMGUS" is going to convince people.

unvote vote Q21

I didn't assumed you were a fool, I did exactly the opposite. I know you aren't a fool, I know that you're logical and intelligent and when you need to be you're manipulative. I knew that to get a genuine response out of you (rather than one made calmly and couched in all sorts of logic and whatnot) I had to do something you really weren't expecting.

What made me call your vote OMGUS was not just the post in which you voted but also the supposed explanation that followed. See, unlike most, you didn't give your reasons for voting me when you voted me, you gave your reasons for voting me when you unvoted me. The impression that gives me is that your vote was a genuine reaction which you try to justify after the fact in 139, so you can say that you had a reason, just before jumping your vote back onto a wagon you feel safe on.

[q21]

Apologies for the disappearance, real life crept up and kicked me in the ass.

Just finished my second 30+ hour day in succession, will read up the thread over the weekend and post properly later.

For now... is time to go sleepies for about 15 hours.

[q21]

Vollkan makes a good point: in a game with this kind of players, we shouldn't be distracted by the one or two weird players we have. We should lynch scum. If Empking is scum, we'll lynch him. If he isn't, we'll keep him. No need to make the game easier for scum by lynching people who we think to be likely town.

With the amount of support for a Q21 lynch, if nothing changes after this prod (remember me, Q21, didn't you lurk too in our game when you got under pressure?), I think we should lynch him. There is no need waiting for the deadline, as we can discuss after the lynch. Further, this frees the game up for discussion about the amount of lynches, wagon analysis (without one person already killed) etc. I think that if Q21 can't convince us now we are completely wrong, he won't ever. Better get it done then in stead of letting the game drag out. There is no penalty, as we aren't shortening the day.

Firstly Myk, there's a difference between lurking and literally not being able to post. Secondly, I didn't lurk when I got under pressure in that game - I played consistently at the same (admittedly low) level of activity throughout - a result of LA for nearly the entire duration of the game. Things I managed to achieve in that game despite not have much access.

1. Distancing from Empking. He was scummy as, but the day following my lynch - in lylo - he was barely even looked at.
2. Distancing from you. Throwing around all kinds of shit about your claim. In truth, you didn't need the help like Emp did and you'd have won that game for us even if Emp had been lynched.
3. I managed to get the second (and sane) cop to counter-claim me. Thus allowing you to kill him that night and make life a lot easier for yourselves the next day.

The above post looks like an attempt to lynch me before I had the chance to claim. If it was, you failed.


You see, before this game started, while all the rest of you lazy bums were sitting around chilling out backstage, I felt it was prudent to go off and do some snooping around the place. You know, check out the all those little, unimaginably cramped passageways that seem to just spontaneously grow out from the saner, more reasonable backstage areas of any self respecting awards venue. I thought to myself, "Hey self, if you're lucky you might just find something useful... like where scum plans to hide out at night or the inner sanctum of some diabolical Scummies infesting cult... or something."

I didn't find any of those things - or really anything even like those things. I found the old props department and, horror of all horrors, it was filled with trash, junk, rubble, refuse and a few wet stains that smelled strongly of ammonia and... well, really, you don't need to here the rest of that story, suffice to say that I was fortunate enough to also find a working shower in my travels through the depths of backstage. My first reaction to the junk was disappointment, obviously the props at this edition of the Scummies were going to be a little sub-par, to say the least. That sad conclusion was only strengthened by the old scaffolding that collapsed, killing dear ABR, Goat and vIQ. I became truly disheartened when something as pitiful as a faulty trapdoor did Yosarian2 in. I know he's dead, but yes, I still agree with him.

I'm digressing again, aren't I? Anyway, my second reaction... well my second reaction has to do with those stains I mentioned and lets not get into that. Right? Good. My

third

reaction is the one I'm actually trying to get to here. My third reaction was this, it was the realisation that: One man's (or in this case Scummies Award Ceremony's) old props trash, is another man's instrument of death. So I began searching through the junk and low and behold I found a couples of interesting items.

The first was a knife. What type? I'm not sure. Might be an old penknife. Or pocket-knife. Or jack-knife. Or switch-blade. Or butterfly-knife. Heck, maybe it was even a sushi knife. Anyway, all I'm certain of is that right now it's basically a vaguely pointy, elongated stick of rust that may once have been a knife - though I'm not ruling letter opener out. Regardless what purpose it served in its previous life, whether it be box cutting, letter opening or the preparation of small, delicious raw fish and rice delicacies, it would serve my purpose just perfectly. I figured that even if the sudden insertion of something hard and pointy into a kidney wasn't enough to kill someone, the tetanus poisoning would probably get the job done, so I pocketed the rust blade and kept on searching.

What I found next made me jump for joy. What I found next was unbelievable. What I found next, was a sword. Four feet of incredibly shiny, bladed instrument of death. I proceeded, as any of you would have in my place so don't look at me like that, with a victory dance. I feel that this is an opportune time to point out that I am not, unfortunately, a trained swordsman. I'd also like to point out that dancing around with a sword while not being a trained swordsman is incredibly foolish. It was only a matter of time before I managed to hit myself in the leg. The pain. The horror. I'd severed my foot. I was going to bleed to death in the old props room filled with rubbish. And then... and then the stains would come for me... they might not even wait until I was dead... and then... and then....

And then I realised that I was still standing, both feet attached perfectly well to my legs. Both legs attached to my body. I realised that the sword, to my simultaneous joy and heartbreak, was made of wood. All my dreams of being the hero, my bright sword flashing this way and that in the night, scum falling around me like flies, those dreams were shattered. Until, that is, it occurred to me that it takes only a little force and determination to turn a four foot long tow-by-four into a murder weapon. For some reason I'd left all my four foot long pockets at home, so I stuffed the sword down my trouser leg and headed back up here. So the way my leg hasn't been bending all game... no, it's not a peg leg.

And yes ladies, that does mean that there's sword in my pants...

So there I was at the beginning of the game with my two trusty instruments of death. Two kills, one for each. I'd have to leave the weapons behind because, well, it just wouldn't do to be found with a bloody stick of rust... especially not when someone else has a rusty hole in their spleen. Just wouldn't do at all.

So there you have it. The rest is history.

For those of you who didn't catch it, or *gasp* didn't read it. My Role is: 2-shot protown vig.

[q21]

FTR, Q21 (who is obviously telling the truth in the killing department, not so sure about the alignment) needs to shoot Kinetic. TIA.

Personally I'd rather lynch Kinetic. He wasted vast chunks of the day trying to get Empking policy lynched. That expenditure of time and space is a significant portion of the reason that we're in this deadline rush for a lynch. Yes, I know the other significant portion of the reason is my inactivity, difference is that I didn't have a choice in that.

I also dislike his vote on Imaginality... why? What did you see? What is giving you those mixed feelings?

Unvote, Vote Kinetic.

If he doesn't get lynched I will take pop's suggestion under advisement - along with the suggestions for nightkills of anyone else.

[q21]

Right. So I'm starting to dislike the Kinetic lynch a bit here. Those two votes in the middle, Empking and Incognito, kinda rub me the wrong way. They're reasonless and I don't like reasonless. Incog has offered some reasons later, but they've been a bit meh. His main reason is the fact that Kinetic is his only real competing wagon - and if that's the only reason he'd given in this game situation I'd actually be perfectly fine with it - but he's prefaced that reason with other ones and it makes it look like he's trying to disguise the fact that his vote on Kinetic is a "lynch anyone but me vote". Empking... well, yeah, Empking.

At least the reason "Kinetic wasted time for going on and on about Empking policy lynch" is terri, terri,terribad btw (hint: if you think it's a waste of time to discuss, blame not the answerer).

This, I've come to realize, is true too.

I could go with an Incog lynch, but with less than 12 hours left to deadline I'm wary of making a change that could result in a no lynch.

I'll be on and off throughout the time leading to the deadline to keep up and help ensure that we get something meaningful out of this game.

[q21]

Valid point Hoops.

Unvote Vote Incognito

Lets see if anyone else is around to make this happen.

[q21]

I'll be here to vote Kinetic again before deadline if I have to. If there is a no lynch it won't be my doing.

[q21]

Fucking hell. That was seriously a bad lynch.

No it wasnt. Even if Kin is town I needed his flip. The townies that were in his wagon needed that too.

Lynching Incog is stupid regardless of Kin's alignment.

Spyrex is an awesone lynch BTW.

VOTE: SPYREX.

GOGOGOGO SIZE 200 WAGON

VOTE: incognito

Lets get that piece of information for tomorrow. Hoopla, lets see if your theory was right. In case both wagons were on town, you will still lynch more accurately tomorrow (as you don't have to assume anything about the Incognito) . If one proves to be on scum you have a lot of information (scum having to pick between both lynches).

Otherwise, I would support a whole series of lynches tomorrow. There are a few townreads that are quite uncontested: these are valuable. Multiple lynches will protect them for endgame.

No.

Stop being silly. We need the Kinetic flip first.

First, I think Incog softclaimed PR. Let him do (or fake) his work tonight.

Second, making a hasty lynch that depends on the flip of the other wagon will only give erroneus reads on the long term.

We should lynch obvscum Spyrex. God. Please.

Am I reading this right? Because if I am there is a glaring contradiction going on. First post he's saying that regardless of Kinetic's flip an Incog lynch is stupid... second post he seems to be saying that before we decide whether we're lynching Incognito we need Kinetic's flip... which he's just said should have no baring on whether or not we lynch Incog. Says an Incognito lynch doesn't depend on Kinetic's flip, then says it does. Yeah. Contradiction.

What the hell were you complaining about, ckd, on q21 switching when you weren't voting either wagon? pay attention.

I think you are missing my point...if Kinetic flips scum that unvote and such a late date says something does it not?...so get off my fucking back about paying attention, I was just making a note.

This point is valid if and only if I'd failed to return to help finish Kinetic off. I'm back, but the chance to hammer (or L-1) Kinetic is gone, therefore my unvote on Kinetic is null.

[q21]

Lets spot the contradiction here. You don't want a Incog lynch, as we need the Kinetic flip, but you need a spyrex lynch? Come on, who are you fooling?

The Incog lynch is entirely dependant of the Kinetic flip.

If Kin flips scum would you lynch Incog? Spyrex lynch is not based on the Kinetic flip. Its based on the fact that he is obvscum.

Further, I absolutely HATE that you are claiming a PR for him here. 1. you shouldn't be powerrole hunting. Scum only does 2. If he is a powerrole, he clearly doesn't want to be outed. 3. if he wants everybody to know, he'll claim

Why do I feel am I the only one reading the thread?

Are you saying I am scum, Hoopz?

Yeah.

Am I reading this right?

Lynching Incog today is stupid because we dont have the Kin flip. It entirely dependes on the flip and the information it gives us about the players on the wagons. My position should be clear in the last post. I can understand why you think there is a contradiction there.

"Lynching Incog is stupid regardless of Kin's alignment" means that I think Incog is town and that his lynch is stupid imo.

You did it again. Incog lynch is "entirely dependent" on the Kinetic flip and then you say you think Incog is town, seemingly independent of the Kinetic flip.

[q21]

Vote Incognito

Was voting him before Kinetic self hammered, see no reason not to now.

[q21]

Sadly, I can't make other people magically appear and vote Incog.

[q21]

Question... If Kinetic's dead... why does it still take 8 to lynch?

[q21]

Question... If Kinetic's dead... why does it still take 8 to lynch?

The 50% +1 rule. 15 players means 8 to lynch. 14 means 8 to lynch also, as 7 would be half.

*derp*

We started with 15 not 14.

[q21]

Fucking hell. That was seriously a bad lynch.

No it wasnt. Even if Kin is town I needed his flip. The townies that were in his wagon needed that too.

Lynching Incog is stupid regardless of Kin's alignment.

Spyrex is an awesone lynch BTW.

VOTE: SPYREX.

GOGOGOGO SIZE 200 WAGON

VOTE: incognito

Lets get that piece of information for tomorrow. Hoopla, lets see if your theory was right. In case both wagons were on town, you will still lynch more accurately tomorrow (as you don't have to assume anything about the Incognito) . If one proves to be on scum you have a lot of information (scum having to pick between both lynches).

Otherwise, I would support a whole series of lynches tomorrow. There are a few townreads that are quite uncontested: these are valuable. Multiple lynches will protect them for endgame.

No.

Stop being silly. We need the Kinetic flip first.

First, I think Incog softclaimed PR. Let him do (or fake) his work tonight.

Second, making a hasty lynch that depends on the flip of the other wagon will only give erroneus reads on the long term.

We should lynch obvscum Spyrex. God. Please.

Am I reading this right? Because if I am there is a glaring contradiction going on. First post he's saying that regardless of Kinetic's flip an Incog lynch is stupid... second post he seems to be saying that before we decide whether we're lynching Incognito we need Kinetic's flip... which he's just said should have no baring on whether or not we lynch Incog. Says an Incognito lynch doesn't depend on Kinetic's flip, then says it does. Yeah. Contradiction.

Lets spot the contradiction here. You don't want a Incog lynch, as we need the Kinetic flip, but you need a spyrex lynch? Come on, who are you fooling?

The Incog lynch is entirely dependant of the Kinetic flip.

If Kin flips scum would you lynch Incog? Spyrex lynch is not based on the Kinetic flip. Its based on the fact that he is obvscum.

Further, I absolutely HATE that you are claiming a PR for him here. 1. you shouldn't be powerrole hunting. Scum only does 2. If he is a powerrole, he clearly doesn't want to be outed. 3. if he wants everybody to know, he'll claim

Why do I feel am I the only one reading the thread?

Are you saying I am scum, Hoopz?

Yeah.

Am I reading this right?

Lynching Incog today is stupid because we dont have the Kin flip. It entirely dependes on the flip and the information it gives us about the players on the wagons. My position should be clear in the last post. I can understand why you think there is a contradiction there.

"Lynching Incog is stupid regardless of Kin's alignment" means that I think Incog is town and that his lynch is stupid imo.

You did it again. Incog lynch is "entirely dependent" on the Kinetic flip and then you say you think Incog is town, seemingly independent of the Kinetic flip.

Pointed these out at the end of Day 1, but there was no chance I was getting a tajo lynch through then. Now though, its worth the pursuing, I think. His play has felt different to the town-tajo I've played with before and he's had some other minor scumminess, but this to me is the stand out point.

Vote Populartajo

Also, not voting for Spyrex today.

[q21]

Not sure if that's genuine or WIFOM from CKD.

[q21]

You all are doing it wrong.

THE FIRST THING we should have done today was to ask Q21 if he is responsible for the Emp lynch.

SO Ill go ahead and ask Q21 if he is responsible for the Emp lynch. Otherwise please lynch immediately because his cases are obv BS.

Yes, I killed Empking.

I've played with Emp-scum and Emp-town. His play here reminded me of Emp-scum more.
His vote onto Kinetic was horrible and was a significant part of why I got off Kinetic.
Kinetic's town flip in conjunction with the shear amount defence Emp was getting from other people made me suspect Empking. Don't bother ask me which of the people arguing with Kinetic is his scumbuddy, I don't know, but I felt that with the volume of it there was likely scum there defending a buddy.

All these were just the clinching points that made me decide between holding onto one of my precious kills a little longer or using it. The biggest reason I was looking at killing Empking in the first place, the reason I knew he was going to be high on my NK list from the very beginning was that I know Empking tends to serve as a smokescreen, getting in the way of proper scumhunting - that point was proved quite abundantly in the way Day 1 unfolded. In the end I figured Emp was probably scum, but even if he wasn't it wouldn't be a completely wasted kill, so I went for it.

As to the nature of the game now, I think you're scummy. Why make comments like "The Incog lynch is entirely dependant of the Kinetic flip" if you were going to continue with the view that Incognito is town seemingly regardless of Kinetic's flip? Is that question BS? I don't think so because if you can't provide a valid reason then it begins to look like you were simply trying very hard to keep Incognito around for another day. Dismissing the point as obv BS rather than explaining the apparent contradiction is also scummy.

At this point though I don't think I'm going to be able to push you're lynch through, certainly not ahead of the other options going round. I think I like the Incognito lynch best right now. His flip is valuable from the perspective of analysing the two competing day one wagons and I think that flip would reflect on you too, so:

Unvote, Vote Incognito

[q21]

Why vote Slicey over KMD when you prefer KMD?

[q21]

No, just wondering. Why do you prefer KMD?

[q21]

I think you've missed Tajo's point.

Objectively, Incog being scum was logically predicated on the result of the Q21 lynch. Subjectively, however, Tajo was against Incog's lynch regardless.

I think you mean Kinetic lynch, not the q21 lynch, but that's neither here nor there. If what you're saying here is the case then Pop's objective and subjective reasoning contradict each other - this is not in itself scummy. However, he proceeds to cite both of those contradicting viewpoints in order to respond to others' points, which is scummy.

[q21]

The first quote states the obvious: that objectively, Incog being scum was predicated on the result of the Kinetic lynch (making it stupid, on the argument that people were making for lynching Incog, not to lynch kinetic first). The first part of the second post just reiterates this, then he goes on to give his personal opinion.

A point you seem to be missing is that we'd already lynched Kinetic before Tajo made any of those posts.

[q21]

I really dont know what to make of the vollkan defense. Its unexpected but still.

q21, Ive been pretty clear about this. We had already lynched Kinetic but we didnt have his flip.

Lynching Incog today is stupid because we dont have the Kin flip. It entirely dependes on the flip and the information it gives us about the players on the wagons. My position should be clear in the last post. I can understand why you think there is a contradiction there. "Lynching Incog is stupid regardless of Kin's alignment" means that I think Incog is town and that his lynch is stupid imo.

Having two lynches that

interconnected one with each other

when we didnt have the Kin flip was stupid. People thought Kin was town for his selfhammer. I didnt. We needed his flip so people that thought Incog was scum could go all in with the lynch. But what if Kin flipped scum. We would have lynched Incog because we assumed something. We didnt even need to rush things because it was day 1. Thats why Incog lynch was dependant of the Kin flip and not a 100% Incogscum situation as some people tried to paint.

Now from my point of view, Lynching Incog is stupid regardless of Kin's alignment, means that I think Incog is town and that his lynch is stupid imo.

Those two things are different. I understand why you think there is a contradiction there but I hope its clear now. You pushing and poshing this dead horse isnt helping what we are talking about now.

I've been pushing because I wanted this kind of explanation rather than just you saying the point was obv BS. Last question, if your personal opinion was that Incognito was town regardless why turn to the other reasoning to convince people not to lynch him?

[q21]

Oh one other thing that I wanted to mention that I forgot to include in the above post: I can see where Ojanen might get the "SpyreX vote on Empking right before deadline thing being a town-tell", but I'm leaning towards thinking that's more likely to be a null-tell. If SpyreX is scum, I don't think he would have realistically expected that wagon to suddenly rise off the ground even with the unexplained vote made by Emp on Kinetic - there just wasn't enough time for people to switch, the town was seeming fairly apathetic for most of Day 1, and it would have forced way too many people to eat their words for the wagon to actually become viable. Also, Empking flipped Goon, so he'd be more bus-bait than an Empking-scum PR. If Empking DID flip a scum PR, I would probably put more weight into Spy's switch being a potential town-tell.

There is also the fact that he asked me to kill Emp if Kinetic flipped town. As scum he'd know that Kinetic would flip town, so basically that post was a flat out request for me to kill his scumbuddy.

[q21]

I've reviewed the points raised by Hoops and Ojanen in the posts around ~450. I see where there going so I'm gonna lend a hand in that lynch. Also because it'll hopefully help kickstart the game. Since pop has actually made an answer I get to the point I raised I'm no longer as interesting in lynching him/Incog, though I would still like an answer to the last question I put in 475, Tajo.

For now:

Unvote, Vote: Slicey

L-1: Come here and claim.

[q21]

Well fuck me I'm awesome.

Also, I'm pretty much a vanilla townie now.

[q21]

Okay, so last night my kill list came down to vollkan and imaginality. Vollkan was there because his defence of tajo from my contradiction point seemed off. It wasn't a hard point to defend against and in the end it made me put pop back into the neutral pile... but the defence offered by vollkan just didn't sit right with me. I couldn't decide if it was defending a scumbuddy, or defending a townie to earn town cred, either way I felt it was scummy. In the end vollkan won (or lost depending how you look at it) because he wasn't on the Slicey lynch and imaginality was. Here is why I suspected considered imag and why I'd still be willing to vote him.

Why I don't have any votes on me I'm not sure. In a short-deadline game like this, consistent activity is pretty important. DING, hypocrisy? No: I wasn't lurking strategically but I accept that even non-scummy lurking is antitown, and if need be I'll seek replacement rather than slip behind again.

Reading up now.

To start with there's this where he's calling himself out for something in the hope, I think, that therefore no one else will call him out for it and the situation will blow over.

* q21's random-vote for Empking seems slightly weaselly, hoping for a policy-based wagon to start up?

This seems slightly incongruous with this:

Now time to hedge my bets with an Empking vote.

random votes with smileys are 17.4%* more likely to come from scum trying to make people like them.


*Objective accuracy of statistic is not guaranteed in all countries. Consult your local soothsayer.

He moves from joking to more serious suspicion. My feeling is that he's trying to add as much validity as he can to the q21 vote he makes very shortly after this.

Kinetic, earlier you said: "I do think its inevitable that [Empking] will be lynched even if its not today." So it seems your concern about leaving him 'til D2 or so boils down to the "it distracts from scumhunting" angle. I just don't see why that should be the case. With single lynch games, it wastes a day. With this game, it's easy enough to say, "blah blah, vote X, oh and p.s. empking is still useless, let's lynch him too". It's just whereas for some players, our attitude D2 will be "we will lynch you if you're scummy, but not lynch you if you're neutralish or pro-town," with Empking it might well be a higher threshold, more of a, "we will lynch you if you're scummy or neutralish, but not lynch you if you're highly pro-town." It's not using policy-lynching instead of in-game knowledge, it's using it to judge whether the in-game knowledge is sufficiently strong in his case for him to avoid being lynched.

To further reduce possibilities of discussion being derailed, we might want to consider pseudo-voting tomorrow; it could make sense in this setup anyhow. We can all pseudo-vote/unvote multiple players if we want to, and once any player gets enough pseudovotes to hit the lynch threshold, we lynch them for real. That will make it easier to spot any scum players who use "let's lynch Empking" as an alternative to scumhunting or listing other suspects.

Or are you worried that a cop will have an innocent result on him and we'll have to let him stay alive and he'll lose it for town in endgame? I imagine our cop, if we have one, will investigate someone else, to avoid exactly that dilemma.

In any case, if you want him lynched today, why not come help us lynch q21 first and then we can talk more.

Tow things about this post. One is that its a defence of Empking. The other is that the plan he suggests has a significant flaw in it: It will slow down lynches. Even if the second (actual) lynch happens relatively quickly this plan still requires that someone receive a majority of votes

twice

in order to be lynched. In this game that extra time is decidedly anti-town.

Unvote

Incognito's not scum. I wanted to see how he and others responded to this wagon on him. His response feels pretty genuine to me.

I think Ojanen's post is good, and I'm keen to read the 'more stuff' in her next post, especially re. SpyreX = town. I looked back on another game I was in with him and he was more active and helpful as town in that one, so I'm starting to have my doubts about him here.

More from me later.

You're only starting to have your doubts about Spyrex here? Then explain for me this post from 4 days earlier:

Myko, I want that damn reason about Spyrextown in your next post.

Seconded.

Seconding a demand from someone who was adamant that Spyrex was scum would imply that you were at this point at least a little suspicious of Spyrex.

Some things that didn't really affect my view of imaginality last night, but that I think I'd like to raise today:

Ran short of time this weekend, grr. The more from me will be tomorrow. For now, I'm happy to see Tenchi lynched:

Vote: Tenchi

Agree with the posts above: ckd's self-vote feels genuine. I'm definitely not in favour of lynching Ojanen either, and I have no desire to lynch q21 (though there's still a possible SK concern there, so he's worth keeping an eye on). Not so strongly town about Hoopla but think there plenty scummier players to occupy us today at least.

I think at least one of Slicey and SpyreX is scum but probably not both, and I lean much more towards Slicey there; happy to lynch him.

I think probably one of myko or Vollkan is scum, and lean slightly more towards myko. Also I noticed Empking speak up in myko's defence at one point and I think he's more likely to have done that for a scumbuddy.

Kmd and tajo I'm feeling fairly neutral about. Between the two of them I'd lynch Kmd first.

The two paragraphs in the middle. Picks one scum right and one scum wrong - notably its the scum PR that he picks wrong... This is exactly the kind of play I expect from scum. When the scumbuddy you picked right flips scum it gives more credence to your town read on the other.

Where is my case? If you don't want to post it, you can leave it, but you are going to say something about it.

I'm going to leave it for now while we focus on getting a few more obvious lynches done today.

Can we see this case now? Or do you not actually have a case?

Not voting now because I think that mass claim needs to come first... which means that, yes, I support a mass claim.

Scum
-2 Imaginality
-1 populartajo (the flips of vollkan and Spyrex having me leaning this way again)

I don't usually do town reads, but since it was the reasoning of these two that derailed the incog lynch onto a successful scum lynch of Slicey:
+2 Ojanen
+1 Hoopla

[q21]

Vote tenchi[/b[

Lets get this party started. Cos its not a party until you've lynched at least two people.

[q21]

Vote Tenchi

I fail...

Also, L-1 someone hammer.

[q21]

Hey Tenchi, you could always self hammer so we can move on...

[q21]

Here's where we stand with regards to the mass claim:

q21 - vig
myko - rolecop
tajo - power role, but he won't tell us what until last
Ojanen, CKD & Incognito - VT

Tenchi - Hasn't claimed, despite the town being in the middle of a mass claim. Despite being at L-1. Somehow I doubt if he's going to claim if he didn't in those circumstances. I feel that waiting for his claim could very well be a fruitless exercise and we should move on with lynching him and getting on with the mass claim.

KMD - Hasn't claimed. In fairness his 'slot' for claiming hasn't come up yet, but if it does I get the feeling from his infrequent posts that we may end up waiting for a while if his turn does come up. I think we should set him a claim deadline and if he misses it we should carry on. We can't afford to sit around waiting for KMD.

Hoopla - Hasn't claimed. I don't have any problem with that, as one of the towniest players in my eyes I'm happy with her 'official' claiming position to be last. However, I think that the mass claim has lost momentum and that if she were to claim it could remedy that. Also, given the apparent unreliability of claims coming from KMD and Tenchi I think tajo would be unreasonable to refuse to claim after Hoopla has done so.

[q21]

I imagine she wants to be certain someone's town before she risks her life for them.

[q21]

Well, after the Empking killing and Slicey lynching, I'd think you the claimed Vig would probably be a pretty decent person to protect.

Not really. I was pretty much guaranteed to kill again that night. If she'd guarded me she could have ended up giving her life for what would essentially be a VT.

[q21]

True... whatever, I'm still alive now, so... are we really going to wait for a tenchi claim?

[q21]

*fear*

[q21]

tajo is a jailkeeper.

Huh?

No, he's a watcher or tracker.

But then why was there no scum kill night 1?

[q21]

I don't get what use it would be to know Tenchi's supposed night 2 target.

And I've been away from this thread for a few days working. By biggest impression from reading up the thread is that people are over analysing the situation. I fail to understand the danger in using Myko's info to win the game with myself and tajo as the potential last players standing.

[q21]

Finally sanity prevails. So Patrick, you still around?

[q21]

Now this game I enjoyed... my day 1 play suffered for lack of RL time and trying too hard to figure out who to vig rather than just playing the game as normal when I could. I think I made up for it after though. My cloak of scum scalps is coming on well, 2 and counting - just need to be vig again sometime.

Never played in a game where town was so completely dominant as this one, I quite enjoyed it.

[q21]

While I actually get to pat myself on the back this game some I can't not give mad props to the murderbot 9000 that was q21.

Well done.

sigged