/in-vitational Game 8 - Nito City (over) after 1015

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Zajnet

The reason is obv ... Central Park 234.

Enough said.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Zajnet

The reason is obv ... Central Park 234.

Enough said.

This is one of those times that this site had a facepalm emote like the other site I play mafia on.

Any reason you felt the need to not bother to join in the Random voting? Indecisive as to whether to bus your partners in RVS?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Any reason you felt the need to not bother reading the thread? Indecisive as to whether to attempt to mislead the town?

I’ve read the thread. I appreciate the attempt at humor. What I find interesting is that you are the only one who bothered to attack my ‘mistake’. Add your ‘random’ start of game vote and I have to wonder - Holding a grudge from the Newbie game for some reason?

First to accuse of rolefishing is scum.

And yes I'm serious, rolefishing is one of those accusations that is incredibly easy and safe to make as scum because it is seen as one of the most anti-town thing you can do and it is very easy to make a fairly innocuous statement look like rolefishing.

Have any links that support your assertion?

You obviously never played with Jack. I dubbed him the person to always do something scummy for reaction purposes. It's why I like playing with him. He gets the game going that way.

I’m going to agree. My experience with Jack shows exactly this behaviour.

I'd also like to point out that Zach is lurking. Normally with a game only just opening I wouldn't go as far as calling someone on lurking, but he has posted in all this other games today but is avoiding this one. Zach's scum meta is to lurk, he hates playing scum and will only contribute to the thread if called upon. The thing is, he knows that I know this is his scum meta because I poke him about it all the time. SO I am feeling very WIFOM'ed right now.

So you call out Zach for lurking as Scum Meta and then undercut your own argument?

[MagnaofIllusion]

magna that post lacks a shotty vote. Why do you still have your vote parked on zajnet?

Yes it does lack a Shotty vote since he isn’t playing this game. It also lacks a Sotty vote. I’m not one to vote-hop like a pinball machine. Thus my vote on zajnet is going to sit there until I have a firm suspicion I want to apply pressure to.

If you are so worried about RVS style votes not being on Sotty why didn’t you question anyone else who still has an RVS vote out there?

I wanted his scum meta in this thread so if I die and he lurks there is some reference that should provide pressure.

Why only bring Zach’s scum meta to the discussion? Is he the only one that has an easily identifiable meta? And why if you die would he be the obvious culprit?

Also I have had active scum games, granted they are not common. I have also had less active town games, granted they are also not common.

Can you show examples of said games that ‘disprove’ the scum meta read that Sotty is presenting? No, I’m not going to hunt through your Wiki for them.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Manga, Zach and myself are married, maybe that will answer your question. Basically he is the only one who's meta read I can trust, that is until he stabs me in the back with it.

Well I guess that puts things in a clearer light. This is why I don't like being on the dark about these sorts of things.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This is how I read the above events: with no counter point to keep the debate going, he pretty much accepted Sotty7's defense. Problem is, half of it are questions and the other half are not incredibly good defense points. Seems like they were made for more elaboration.

I take it from this post you find Jack’s points convincing. I myself don’t find them overwhelmingly powerful evidence that Sotty is acting scummy. Please elaborate on why you find Jack’s points (especially the third and fourth points) convincing.

I'm interested to see the effect of increased pressure on Sando to see how he responds.

UNVOTE: Porochaz
VOTE: Sando

Someone else asked what the effect of said pressure would be. You never answered. Are you satisfied with Sando’s statements since this post?

UNVOTE: Zajnet
VOTE: Charlie

I think there is a point we are at that keeping to a random vote and not apply pressure to someone you actually feels scummy is off. Did I miss something or aren't votes meant for pressure? Why the concern for voting here?

You can feel it is off if you want. I don’t sling my vote around. If you feel that is me being ‘concerned’ you are mistaken.

Who are you top scum suspects right now?

I feel so far that the best prospects for scum are Locke, Zach, and Charlie.

Zach is playing a passive, fairly content free game so far. Far too much defense of his own meta and not any significant inquiry into others.

Locke and Charlie seem by far the weakest votes reasons for voting Sotty. I don’t feel Sotty is scum at this point so they both bear scrutiny. Both also aren’t setting the world on fire with post volume. As evidenced above Charlie I feel is a stronger current scum read than Locke.

Zaj and CDB need to post more, especially CDB.

Nope, no grudges. Don't flatter yourself into thinking that you're the only player in this game I've played with before. You just happened to be the one my finger landed on when I shut my eyes and jabbed the screen, and the one that random.org suggested. 2 out of 2 random methods chose you, so that's where I put my vote.

I’m not flattering myself at all. Prodding at you in that method was designed to get a reaction. You’ve reacted and I don’t see any reason to pursue it further.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh you mean the excessive defense you fueled by asking me for game links?

So you are only capable of responding to direct questions without actively searching other’s posts? Until I placed you on my suspicions list you were 100% reactive.

So their suspicion can't be legitimate because you think she's town?

No-one said they couldn’t. Nice straw-man. That being said the players with the worst reasoning on the most prominent target have a much higher chance of being opportunistic scum than those with solid reasoning.

Your soft defense of Locke and Charlie is noted.

Neither are you. Your whole scumlist pretty much consists of attacking lurkers.

Yeah if that was the case it would consist of CDB and Zajnet (yes I'm aware he's on V/LA) wouldn’t it …

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOI is winning some serious scum points for voting shenanigans.

It would have been more clear if you had just said ditto Farside.

I don't know what to think of the Zach/Jack/Sotty/MOI/etc debate. I kind of trust Sotty's read on Zach, but at the same time I don't. Meh

So you return after V/LA and have no opinion on anything that’s gone on? And you trust Sotty’s read but don’t all in the same sentance? When the fence-posts get painful to sit on let me know.

Well I was kinda classed as one wasn't I?

By who? If it’s me you are referring to here that’s a mis-rep. I classed you as someone with a content free, passive game.

As it is I'm very suspicious of MOI at the moment, particularly after his response which basically tried to paint everything I said into the scummiest light possible. It just seems like he's trying to make people think he's more sure of his picks for scum than he really is or possibly could be.

Isn’t that you are exactly doing with me and my responses?

Magna's line of thought that he doesn't think Sotty is scum so Charlie and myself are likely to be is flawed. I'd like him to explain exactly what is weak about our votes and scummy about our play in general.

You disagree that when looking for scum that you should be looking for the players who you perceive to have the worst reasoning? That’s the point of my statement. It’s entirely possible that you both could be innocent. But I’m not going to focus my attention on the players I feel have the best reasoning.

Your vote I feel is the least reasoned for the following reasons –

1. You RVS voted Sotty.
2. In your next post you transition it to a real vote (“I think I'll leave my vote there.”) based on two things – Sotty’s attempt to move suspicion to Zach for scum-lurker meta and Poro’s view.

Both of these are borrowed reasons. Jack posted the first in ISO 72 and you explicitly say you agree with Poro’s view. Two borrowed reasons don’t strike me as an extremely strong foundation for a vote.

Charlie’s vote is not well reasoned as follows –

His stated reason for voting Sotty is that he doesn’t feel Sotty’s responses to Jack are strong. Not that Sotty’s been scummy. He even says that he feels Jack has accepted the reasoning. As I stated in my questions to Charlie – I want to know why he feels Jack’s reasons are compelling.

So first your wrong about charlie not answering

Responding to a question does not automatically make it a response. His original statement was -

I'm interested to see the effect of increased pressure on Sando

to see how he responds.

Emphasis added. The bolded portion, as you originally noted, clearly states he is looking for a specific response to his ‘pressure’.

His response to your question was -

No, it is an argument between Jack and Sando. I'm taking one side and seeing how it goes and nothing else.

That’s clearly not in line with his original statement. He didn’t say ‘I believe Jack’s opinion is valid, and thus I’ve voting for Sando’. The answer he gave was a non-answer and I want to know what he was looking for from Sando.

You do realize that Locke's original vote on Sotty was RVS

Yes. As stated above in his ISO 1 he in my mind transitions to a serious vote when he states the agreement with what is essentially Jack and Poro’s reasoning. Do you disagree?

Why isn't poro on your scum list then?

I disagree with Poro’s assessment but his suspicion was developed over a serious of posts and responses. That's a Town perspective process IMO. As pointed out above Locke and Charlie both echo others as their support. I find personally developed lines of attack more convincing (and thus better reasoned) than borrowed logic.

And yet I question you about your lack of vote on Sotty and suddenly you find a voice and vote charlie for (1) reason's that are false and (2) weak reason for his vote.

So first I'm scummy for not transitioning to a serious vote very early in the Day. Then I'm scummy for voting someone I find suspicious. Seems like a 'Damned if you do, damned if you don't" dilemma you are creating here.

And as evidenced above I disagree with your assessment of point 1. Not sure why point 2 isn’t worth suspicion.

@MOD – I’ll be V/LA from today at 4pm EDT until Monday morning for my regular weekend family duties.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It's voting someone when a person ask you about your lack of vote I take issue with.

So once you asked why I hadn’t made a non-RVS vote what would be the ‘appropriate’ amount of time to take to make a serious vote? I’m not going to let you personally dictate when and how I place my votes. If you find that scummy more power to you.

MOI must have a firm scum read on Charlie, but I'm not seeing how that case is any stronger than any of the other cases.

So what is this other than fluff? Are you saying that I am scummy for voting for the read and case from my mind as opposed to just mimicing someone else?

I'm shit for analysis on D1. Charlie is acting scummy, but not enough so that I would feel confidant lynching him. I still feel MOI is the scummiest, for reasons I've already stated (they may be brief but so what?).

The reasons stated being that I didn’t move my RVS vote until I felt I saw scummy enough behaviour? That’s more scummy than vote-hopping to the strongest available wagon twice inside of 2 pages (which is what I see Charlie doing)?

I'm sorry, you misunderstood me. I do not find them convincing. I'd like to think that Jack's actions in that post is like a fisherman throwing cheap bait on the ocean to get reactions from people; like a catalyst for discussion. I like that action. I'm not too fond of cheap bait. I voted based on my point in #101. As an added extra, I've decided to not hold back on votes this game (I'm trying a playstyle shift; trying to play more aggressive).

I’m not quite sure I’m following your logic here.

1. You find Jack’s tactics to be something akin to weak reaction fishing.
2. You like catalyzing discussion but aren’t ‘fond’ of Jack’s tactics.
3. You voted for Sotty to based on tactics that aren’t convincing purely to increase discussion.

If this summary is correct I don’t see a Pro-Town reason for you to have chosen to vote Sotty over Jack. You didn't feel his reasons were credible but felt Sotty's defense was less so? This combined with your wishy-washy jump onto my wagon looks more like Scum looking for a popular wagon as opposed to Town looking to ‘stir’ discussion.

I will be compiling a short case on MoI later. I'm just a little bit lazy at the moment.

I’m looking forward to this.

Magna: yes, I agreed that Sotty bringing it up was scummy. Last time I checked, the rules of this game do not require you to post entirely original suspicions before you make a vote. I think the thrust of my attack was a little different because I've played with Sotty and Zach in the same game before, as well as playing in scum games for both of them, and I actually followed up on it more than you or Jack did. What I'd like to know is, as of post 109, what made you think I was just bandwagoning and not genuinely interested in whether Sotty is scum?

Read your posts before 109. ISO 1 is a very weak reason to transition your vote on Sotty from RVS to real. You agree with her meta assessment but paint it as scummy for being ‘almost apologetic’. In ISO 2 you furthermore say that Sotty’s statements ‘feels off’ regarding Zach. Reading those give me the feel of someone attempting to vote opportunistically. It looked like bandwagoning to me at the point I wrote 109.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna: so what exactly was your problem with what Sotty said about Zach, and how was it different from what I thought?

The extent of my problem with Sotty had nothing to do with believing her bringing up meta as a distraction technique. This was your point. My questions focused more on why Sotty was simply bringing meta from only Zach. Sotty answered those points for me.

Re: IKD at 149

– These are all valid points. Jack is getting a pass simply based on his history of ‘wacky’ antics. If anything read the Princess Bride Mini that ended in the last month or so. Jack latched onto Sensfan with similar lack of explanation and ended up lynching a Serial Killer. Jack’s reaction to your points will help me decide if I think he’s crossed over from regular antics to scummy play.

Even thought he is V/LA I’d like to officially note that Zach has once again dropped his actively level once the attention has shifted off him.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Is cdb lurking scum?

What do you think? You are allowed to actually express thoughts as opposed to just dropping in one-liners with little substance.

The point was whoever hammered (although the chances were slim) would be under intense scrutiny the next Day. You're going to have to take my word for it that I was confident that this would not happen. I cannot explain it any other way unless I lie.

So you felt it was worthwhile to put me at L-1 and risk a quick / accidental mislynch because you felt the chances were small? And why should that person face more scrutiny than you, who voted for someone you didn’t even have a solid scum-read on (based on your I’m conflicted statement)? Finally why can’t you explain your confidence without lying?

Aha, good. This reaction I find normal. Notice the glaring discrepancy of opinion/playstyle between Zajnet and ChannelDelibird. This makes me think that if actions are done as I expected, then one of them is manipulative and thus more likely to be mafia. Am I making sense here?

So you are stating one of CDB or Zaj is more likely to be Mafia but aren’t willing to explicitly say which. I assume you are finding Zaj scummy but it’s not clear. Looks somewhat like an attempt to postion yourself to go in whatever direction the wind blows regarding those two. And if you do find them more likely to be Mafia why aren’t you following up with that person? Please don’t respond with ‘I’m lazy’.

I am sorry, but you have either misunderstood me or put words in my mouth again. Let me make this much clear: I have no idea what the heck is going on between Jack's apparent silliness/strange tactics and this is me expressing confusion over it. I did the best I could to interpret it at that time and posted it. You just make conclusions for me and I'm slightly uncomfortable with that. The summary is incorrect.

So Jack’s actions you found confusing and the best way to sort that out is to take his ‘side’ and vote for Sotty? If you were confused why didn’t you question Jack? Why are you uncomfortable about others drawing conclusions based on your play? That’s the essence of the game of Mafia at its most basic. Didn’t you chide me for not expressing opinions about people’s play earlier? You can't credibly call out someone for not expressing opinions and then attack them when they do.

I'm inclined to agree that they may be better lynches out there. On Day one, we all have to work with what little information we have.
UNVOTE: MagnaofIllusion

EBOWP: Wait, why did I unvote Magna?? I am playing aggressively this game! No fear!
VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

So there may be other, better lynches. You’ve hinted at others playing in a manner that indicates they may be Mafia. But your ‘aggressive’ play is not to question or pressure others? I think this borders on Cognitive Dissonance, which only further enhances my scum-read on you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOI seems really quiet now that pressure is off of him I'm tempted to switch back to Magna

Really quiet? Really? I post generally once a day. Due to a busy day Thursday I was unable to do so. I posted Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. If you are expecting multiple small posts from me you should either expect disappointment or adjust your expectations. I don’t make serial posts as a general rule.

Additionally how is the pressure ‘off’ me? I have 4 votes to Charlie’s 5. Hardly a situation where there is concensus.

I have caught up whilst I have some town reads but no scum reads as of yet, I need to read when its not early morning, however I think an unvote would be appropriate at the moment.

You have no-one who you feel is playing scummy enough to warrant a scum read? So was your initial attack on Sotty simply for pressure?

That was your original objection. I don't see anything there about why she brought up only Zach. The tone of that seems more along the lines of my objection; that is, she's making a point against Zach but excusing (or undercutting, if you prefer) it at the same time that she makes it.

It was my initial question. I wanted to see her reaction and if she would widen the meta-field. When she didn’t I inquired about what most bothered me – the lack of meta attack on others (in my very next Post).

You make it sound like it is a bad thing.

Opprotunistic voting? Yes I feel that is a bad thing. Let’s look at your voting record (outside of RVS so far).

When you vote for Sotty at 101 it is your first mention of her. When you placed your vote on her (in the dreaded third slot) she was competing with Jack and Poro for wagon leader. You’ve repeatedly stated that you wanted to take a side in the Jack / Sotty debate but didn’t choose the side of the player who ‘confused’ you. This seems off to me.

After I vote for you at 136 you return the favour. At this point I have 5 votes. You are the next leading vote getter with 3. It looks like again choosing a big wagon and also trying to save your own neck with a potential quick lynch.

Also, please answer this question which you seemingly ignored –

Finally why can’t you explain your confidence without lying?

How do I figure out which is mafia..it is like Day 1. Again, you make it sound like it is a bad thing.

You can’t for certain determine when they are Mafia or not. That’s a straw-man attack. You commented that one of the two is exhibiting behaviour that you expect from a Mafian. You do not indicate which player it is. That’s fence-sitting, which I believe is a bad thing.

Which player of CBD or Zaj is the one you suggest is playing in a manner expected of a Mafian?

Certainly better than sitting around to the point that I get accused of active lurking! Which I am glad it has not come to that.

But hopping on a popular wagon as opposed to questioning / putting pressure on the player whose behavior you find confusing or scummy is much worse than actually following up on suspicions. And you don’t address either of the following points. Please do so –

Why are you uncomfortable about others drawing conclusions based on your play?

Didn’t you chide me for not expressing opinions about people’s play earlier? You can't credibly call out someone for not expressing opinions and then attack them when they do.

Actually if I were to go on this statement alone I think it justifies my vote on you (Over-complication of simple things = mafia-ish). Would you kindly tell me more about this Cognitive Dissonance and how it fits on me being mafia?

Demonstrating your behavior as Cognitive Dissonance is not over-complication of matters.

Cognitive Dissonance is when the stated opinions of a player are in direct conflict with the behaviour and actions they undertake. This is scummy because playing in a manner inconsistent with your stated opinions indicates your opinions are not true but contrived.

You state that there may well be better lynches than me. You point out players (Jack and CDB/Zaj) who may be playing in a manner you feel is worth investigation and / or voting.

Then you don’t question said players and lazily slap you vote back on me. Your actions are in conflict with your stated opinions. Scummy.

Your buddying up in 172 to Farside is noted.

Zajnet, Zach, Jack are all pretty much contributing nothing outside of their votes on me. No scum-hunting at all. I would not be surprised if at least 1 Mafain (if not more) were not riding out the day among these slots.

I’ve made my opinion on Charlie well known.

Poro’s lack of reads is moving him up the scum ladder in my mind.

@MOD – I’ll be V/LA from 4pm EDT until Monday morning due to family responsabilities. I will have limited chances to contribute before deadline but will not have a chance to make significant posts.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You didnt read my next post did you?

No I missed it. I started composing before you or farside posted. Due to a hectic day at work it took me that long to put everything together. I saw farside's post but missed yours.

Consider my question to you answered.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna: I don't see it. How does your first question lead on to anything to do with widening the meta field? Was your original objection similar to mine or not?

I explained my thoughts in the last post I made. I don’t think I can be any clearer. If you don’t believe what I’m saying that’s your call. I’m not going to waste any more time on it.

Regarding Jack’s meta and his play this game – here are his three most recent completed games:

Quick and Dirty Mafia – he flipped Goon.
Gears of War Mafia– he won as a Serial Killer
Alternate Vote Mafia– he was engamed as an undisclosed Town role.

Take a look at his play in each game and decide which he most resembles. I’m leaning towards Mafia based on his lethargic, listless play in this game and Q&D Mafia.

If I'm lucky, that what will the scenario be? This is a WIFOM trap. You're suspicious for this!

You are missing the whole point of Sando’s statement. There would be no pressure on the person who hammered if the lynched person was Town. It’s not a WIFOM trap.

Stop right there. There is a flaw. I wanted to take a side, but in no way can you said I'm inclined to pick one based on YOUR assumptions. These are mine and only mine to make. You are putting words in my mouth and I can't highlight this enough so perhaps you are ever so bold.

My perspective is approaching the game from a logical, Town oriented perspective. I don’t see that in your thought process. Thus I’m asking you about it. That’s not putting words in your mouth. That’s trying to determine why you are playing in an illogical manner.

Oh well, what's done is done and I cannot defend against this point now.

Do you think stating that you can’t defend your action in this case mitigates suspicion?

@Charlie

– Don’t take this the wrong way, but is English your first language?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why is this true?

It’s not. As Sando has pointed out I garbled the post. It should have read “There would be no pressure on the person who hammered if the lynched person was

Scum

”

That said you haven’t addressed the point Sando originally made - that your presentation of the vote on my indicated that you believed I was Town.

Really, I can see your thought process somewhat logical, but not Town orientated. For simple matters, I take the simple solution. Adding a little bit of extra thought in post goes a long way, but there is a time for just going for it.

Please elaborate on why my thought process is ‘not Town oriented’.

At this point in time, yes I believe that he is mafia. He continues to put press on the same matter without giving much room.. I would say he'd have a counter-point for every point I make. This seems too good to be true. Vote stays.

So you think it is scummy to inquire, press, or otherwise interrogate a player I think is scum? If so we have a differing opinion on what constitutes scummy play. If I feel you are making points that aren’t valid I’m going to question / respond to them.

As the day is coming to a close I think Charlie is honestly the best lynch. I also think that Zaj, Jack, Zach, and CDB’s replacement need more scrutiny Day 2.

@Zach, Poro and IKD

– Please share your thoughts on Charlie.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Excellent.

Farside, MOI what say the pair of you? Wanna help me wagon my husband?

I’d rather not end up with a No-lynch due to the deadline but I would support a Zach lynch. All he has done today is explain how the meta you describe isn’t accurate, attack me on some points, and latch onto another lurker’s wagon. Having done a little digging into his ISO I tend to agree with your meta assessment.

That said deadline is 10 hours away. I will probably not have much access past 4pm EDT so if a move is to be made I would need to make it in the next 3 or so hours.

@Sotty

– Does Zach’s sudden replace out reduce your thoughts about whether his slot is Scum?

Ok, so Zajnet has been online, posted in other games and yet can't be bothered to post in this one despite deadline being less than 24 hours away. His total contribution in the last week is a prod response and then a V/LA notice. He's just lurking out this lynch.

Agreed.

I’d also suggest that Jack needs some pressure immediately Day 2. He has posted nothing of content since ‘Sotty is scum’ post on August 3rd. He also hasn’t posted since August 11th.

There is nothing I can get out of a straight read that I can't get out of a dozen isos. It's all the same stuff. If anything it's better because I see the same scenarios a dozen times.

Great, whatever method you prefer is fine. Just get your thoughts in here ASAP. The deadline, as mentioned above, is about 10 hours away. I’d like for your slot to have something on record Day 1.

MOI: Who do you think is scum that was on your wagon? Is charlie the only person?

I’m glad you brought this up because looking at my wagon before Night was something that has been slipping my mind since I started pressuring Charlie.
Here are the reasons stated for votes against me –

VOTE: MagnaofIllusion
Got you.

I may also be V/LA this weekend (starting Thursday), depending on how things turn out (I might be going camping; no internet). I'll be more sure about it closer to that time.

This was a RVS vote and he removed it as soon as he notice my wagon quickly getting steam.

unvote, vote:Magna

Yes, the entirety of his post with a vote for me. He had previously expressed that I should have been voting Sotty (who I don’t think is scum based on my previous experience with her) and then FOSed me with no support. No movement on his vote since.

Oh you mean the excessive defense you fueled by asking me for game links
So their suspicion can't be legitimate because you think she's town?
Neither are you. Your whole scumlist pretty much consists of attacking lurkers.

Unvote: Vote: MOI

Zach kept this vote on me until his recent change to Zajnet. He didn’t question me further until I prodded him regarding is lack of input (while he as V/LA for a portion of that time, I acknowledge).

Oops, got prodded.

I don't know what to think of the Zach/Jack/Sotty/MOI/etc debate. I kind of trust Sotty's read on Zach, but at the same time I don't. Meh.

MOI is winning some serious scum points for voting shenanigans.

VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

His vote hasn’t moved since this post, and he also hasn’t pressured me with questions or comments.

So first your wrong about charlie not answering
You do realize that Locke's original vote on Sotty was RVS
Why isn't poro on your scum list then?
And yet I question you about your lack of vote on Sotty and suddenly you find a voice and vote charlie for (1) reason's that are false and (2) weak reason for his vote.

unvote:
vote: MOI

This vote has moved since then to farside’s other targets. He’s continued to question / pressure me even after vote moved.

Keeping in line with decision to be more aggressive, I'm going to place MagnaofIllsuion at L-1 now.
UNVOTE: Sotty7
VOTE: MagnaofIllusion
I have a divided opinion on him, but there are so many instances that I hesitated to place someone at L-1 for fear of a quickhammer by scum. I'm over that.
I ask that none of you hammer him without first stating intention to hammer.
He who fills the old pot and adds new knowledge is fit to be a teacher.

I think I’ve addressed this vote sufficiently during the day.

The relevant vote counts from Incognito –

MagnaofIllusion (5) <-~ imkingdavid, Jack, Zachrulez, Zajnet, farside22

Between these vote-counts Charlie takes me to L-1 and IKD and farside unvote.

MagnaofIllusion (4) <-~ Jack, Zachrulez, Zajnet, Charlie

It’s assumed in your question that I consider Charlie scum on my wagon.

That leaves the following players as potential scum on the wagon –

IKD, Jack, Zach, Zaj, farside

Of these I believe IKD and farside’s vote to be the least fishy. IKD’s was an RVS vote and he moved it as soon as he noticed the wagon quickly forming. Farside’s was built on suspicions formed during play and was followed by further pressue in the form of questions and threats to return the vote.

That leaves Jack, Zach and Zaj.

I feel that Zaj’s and Jack’s are poorly grounded. Jack’s reasons amount to stating ‘he’s scummy and I don’t think it bears explanation’ and Zaj’s is basically ‘ditto farside’. I would rate Zaj’s more scummy than Jack’s based solely on wagon position. Jack was the second vote while Zaj was the fourth.

Zach’ vote was at least presented with suspicions. I find him scummy for other reasons (the already mentioned Sotty meta).

I doubt all three scum would possibly all be on the wagon at the same time. It’s a possibility but seems pretty reckless to me.

I’d place Zajnet – Jack – Zach as a decending order of suspicion based solely on the votes.

Overall I’d say Zach is more likely to be scum with Zajnet and Jack neck and neck right behind.

- For today's lynch: MagnaofIllusion, Porochaz, Zajnet
- I'd bet 1 lunch that farside22 isn't mafia.
- Jack's erratic, but I don't see it as mafia-ish.
- Not impressed by jasonT1981's long post (maybe it is because he votes me).
- Everyone else: does not stand out.

Regarding your scum list – should I be suspicious that your list consists of me (your biggest pursuer), Poro (the top scum read of farside who is your one Town read) and Zajnet (who is lurking)?

Aside from a RVS Poro vote he doesn’t appear ANYWHERE in your ISO prior to being put on your ISO list. Ditto for Zaj. It looks like you basically have just thrown two perceived popular targets on your list.

Did you read Jack’s three recent games that I posted? Are you saying his game here resembles a Town game?

I have to say I’m really a bit discouraged at the activity level shown here for an invitational game. I expected more dedication. We’ve had two replacements; IKD has suggested he was thinking of being replaced, and others putting little effort into the game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hm, yes. Having a list of three people listed as mafia looks more impressive than just one. First impressions count!

What looks even more impressive (ie not made up and based on an actual Town perspective) is when your list of three potential Mafians is comprised of people you have reason to suspect and not just taken from other players' suspicions.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well appareantly my V/LA until today wasn’t worth mentioning by the Mod.

Welcome vollkan

Because I'm a dumbass.

This aside why did you avoid the thread at the end of yesterday (up until your non-claim hammer) while posting in other games with frequency?

I don't like Jack's explanation behind his claimless hammer.

vote Jack

Umm what? Are you talking about Zajnet here or some other game?

charlie was obvtown, thought I could swing it over to moi in time...also I was confusing this game with another one which had a "person with most votes at deadline gets lynched" mechanic.

Nice after the fact assessment that Charlie was obvtown. Wish it had shown up in your ISO before the lynch

Why did you wait to the absolute last minute to make your ‘claim’ of Day-Masonizer instead of beating around the bush with your no-content statements / attacks? I don’t see a Pro-Town reason to do so other than it was a last minute gambit on your part, which I would buy coming from you.

@sotty: yeah, he's amusing inconsistent in a scummy way, I'll probably vote for him if you quit asking me too.

VOTE NOW JASON, VOTE OR DIE

Classic distancing / fencesitting here regarding Jason from Jack. States he’s scummy and he’ll vote for him but always finds some ‘reason’ not to. If Jason does indeed flip scum Jack’s a partner.

VOTE: Jason

His play yesterday (which I discussed during my wagon post) in both Zach and Jason form was whelming. Today he’s harping on Sotty’s use of meta while ignoring any other element of his slots scumminess (his wagon hopping, his slots total lack of solid reads).

[MagnaofIllusion]

He's scum. People are amusingly ignoring my pr result, which was partly my attention, but still

Nice summary with nothing to it.

You still haven’t addressed the following question –

Why, if you used your ‘Day Masonizing’ power early on to ‘confirm’ I’m scum didn’t you make more of an effort to lynch me earlier?

Also, why claim at the last possible moment when you spent Day 1 with your cute ‘Don’t Rolefish’ routine?

His vote isn't based on my recent posts.

Why should your massive Day 1 lurking, which is in line with your recent scum Meta, be ignored because today you are active?

This thread needs more Jason, Poro and Zaj (also Locke but at least he has announced a V/LA).

[MagnaofIllusion]

325 to 331 is just comical –

“I’m voting Jack because he threatened me”
“I mislynced you once in another game that has no bearing on your alignment here, so you must be Town”
“Oh, I remember that. Unvote Jack, that same game makes me think you are Town”

This exchange is so blantant I’m starting to doubt whether the links between Jack and Jason I saw earlier are valid.

Accusing me of boilerplate scumtells Vollkan... Cute.

Are you suggesting that you are too good a scum player to commit run-of-the-mill Wiki tells?

I think I need to review your Weeds Mafia play to see how it looks compared to this game.

@Jason

– Your play today is exactly the same as Zach’s – reactive defensiveness mixed with a complete lack of scum-hutning. My vote stays right where it is.

moi has been very fakey

I’m glad you can quantify exactly why I’m scum with clear details and support

I’d ask you to support your generic assertions but I know it’s a waste of time since all you do is drop ‘reads’ into the thread and look for reactions.

Also you ‘Lynch all Lurkers’ paragraph is interesting. You whip out this long (for you) explanation of why you have to lynch them Day 2 when Day 1 should have been when you pushed CDB / Ythan or Poro or Zaj.

Why is meta a stronger reason to lynch someone than Zajnet’s hammer without claim?

Have you consistently shown this LaL belief during your play here at MS?

For everyone else

– I ask these questions knowing Jack will ignore them. Being accountable for his own actions isn’t something he is big on.

[MagnaofIllusion]

When I used meta to explain my backing off jason you say it is "blatantly scummy" and a reference to another game that "has no bearing on his alignment". But you have frequently brought up meta--you agree with farside that my actions are like my town meta, and then you bring up princess bride as a further argument. You note that I didn't explain my vote and ended up lynching the SK. Later you make a meta case on me, somehow digging up 3 recent games but ignoring that my activity had dropped sitewide for about a week--calling what you had said was town meta scummy.

How can you reconcile that with saying that a reference to another game has "no bearing on someone's alignment"?

Nice of you to not bother to answer direct questions. Note that unlike you I welcome discussion. Regarding your post above.

There is a HUGE difference between using Meta (ie the general tendencies of a player as a whole for any given alignment) and referencing a single, specific game. You didn’t reference other games where Jason plays the same. Just a single outlier. Have you played in other games where Jason was mislynched playing like he is?

Why, when referencing Meta, should I be disallowed to reference games of recent vintage with three separate alignments in comparison to your game here? You state you sitewide activity dropped for a week – your point? Given that your activity in Quick and Dirty (where you were Mafia) was very relevant to your play Day 1 a logical conclusion is that you have an inherent dislike for Mafia roles, and thus your ‘lower activity’ is a result of that. So please don’t accuse me of ‘ignoring’ your drop in activity.

I don’t really have a need to reconcile anything given the above.

Is it your contention that meta should be a valid defense for you (your early game pointless antics) but not be a valid reason for suspecting you?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Poro, Zaj and Ythan all are lurking and not providing anything in the way of content. Specifically calling out any one of them without the others looks like selective reasoning – which is scummy.

@Sando

– Who do you think are vollkan’s partners?

Looking at Zajnet in ISO, he really has not added much to the game.

Neither has Poro or CDB / Ythan. Why aren’t they worth highlighting?

He aint really done much though Jack.. I am not sure he is scum. right now I feel vollkan is a better lynch.

1. Your lack of support for why Volk would be a better lynch is telling.
2. Why did you go out of your way to highlight Zaj’s lack of activity at the top of the page? If you aren’t saying it is scummy then you aren’t scum-hunting and are just staying active.

@Jason

– I also agree with farside’s assessment that your attack on him is flailing. You admit yourself that Zach has been playing as a Hydra with Sotty during the duration of this game. Additionally his /in post in the Road to Rome specifically says he has availablility.

This is magna's description of my quote. Why is my bringing up supreme court a reference to "a game that has no bearing on jason's alignment"? That's an outright dismissal of meta.

It’s a refusal to blindly accept of single game Meta when it can easily be an outlier. If you had other Meta sources that supported your assertion would carry some weight.

In the alternative vote game which you linked to his was mislynched day 1 (not by me, I was voting scum).

The article I posted refutes a lot of your comments as well by the way.

Are you asserting that his play there is similar to the game we've been discussing and here? I will look at both.

I’m glad you found an academic article (which is generalist in nature as far as I can surmise) which you think backs your position. Not sure how it must apply to every person and every setting (like here on MS, for example).

I suppose to be fair, magna was just as whiny (sorry but you are :/) when I voted him in small town. Although I eventually got a town read out of it. But it's hard to judge people who throw as much crappy reasoning and rhetoric as they can at any suspicion. Reminds me of how parama reacted in pizzaria mafia as scum, so.

Nice ad hominem. And I love you are using meta from a completely different player to ascribe scummy motivations to me while dismissing Stardust. I thought single game Meta was strong evidence. Inconsistency in your opinions perhaps?

[MagnaofIllusion]

So let’s assess your reasoning then –

Jack, you make very good points. I also notice, he makes no points towards (scum?) sotty after post 79 of his catchup yet has her at 2nd most likely scum.... and only makes mention of me/zach after Sotty pushes Zachs lurking. I feel his vote is opertunistic.

in fact it is not until his 2nd catch up post he even makes reference to Zach.

vote:vollkan

His points system is a bit weird

1. His point system being weird is a scum-tell? I have seen him use it as Town. At worst it is a null if you can show Volk using it as scum.
2. He makes specific reference to Zach in the following line of his first catch-up post

57: Sotty helpfully points out that

Zach

is lurking. Convenient timing....Sotty+1

so your statement on the face is invalid. If you meant that he didn’t address any of Zach’s posts as scummy until the second summary please answer the following question -

Zach only has 5 posts (including an initial RVS style post) by post 70 where Volkann's summary ends. Is it not easily possible that Vollkan only found suspicious posts in the 12 posts that followed as opposed to the fluff that accompanies the early game? Please indicate the scum motivation for Vollkan to specifically label posts by Sotty scummy if they are partners and he doesn't intend to bus.

And please indicate why Vollkan finding Sotty’s early posts scummy but finding later posts not suspicious makes it incorrect for her to have a high-point total but for you to have an even higher total based on your play?

[MagnaofIllusion]

As you may or may not know

.I have a problem retaining information, now I don't like using it as an excuse and will try my best to play regardless

, my usual play is to delve into day 1 and make my mark and find a "hook", obviously due to my exam period I couldn't do that so when I read back over the past pages, in my opinion, to be quite frank,

I read some of the most mind numbingly dull and pointless stuff that was absolutely useless to me

, which made reading up a real drag.

Bolded for emphasis –

So the reasons you have done little in the way of scum-hunting are –

1. You are busy IRL
2. You don’t retain information (which you include even though you ‘don’t’ like using it as an excuse)
3. Everyone else is playing in a fashion that you find boring and not useful.

Number 1 I can understand. Number 2 isn’t a real reason and number 3 is just plain bad.

You catch-up post really doesn’t have anything significant to say. You don’t develop why you would be voting for Jason and your suspicion of farside is that she isn’t a ‘cuddly Mom’.

If you read my whole post.. I also had issues with how he never mentioned Sotty after post 79 yet had her second highest scum. And how I felt he was opertunistic jumping on my wagon with the vote.

I read the whole post since I quoted it directly

You don’t address how Volkann’s early suspicion of Sotty (where she accrued her points) should mean that he has find her later post suspicious. And you don’t address how her having the second most points (and having aquired them in his first analysis post) somehow indicates he is scum.

Last page is pretty bad, someone hammer, don't wait for a claim.

I was thinking there weren't any worthwhile power roles after cop and that it would be best to push through without a claim. doc is sort of confirmed though...hmm.

The flip-flop here is fantastic. Note the short-sighted way he attempts to ‘confirm’ that the Doc is the only way there could be no NK.

Compare it to Vollkan’s stament –

For thos who don't know the role, the difference between me and the standard sort of doctor is that I die if I target mafia.

Last night, my predecessor protected Sotty. Which means that, absent any other PRs affecting what happened, Sotty is not mafia.

One of these perspectives is Town. If you think its Jack think again.

I think I've made it clear that I think Jack is quite scummy. I think that considering his play from Weeds mafia, Ythan is looking very different from his previous play, and as that was town-play, it must be considered scummy.

I agree his play here is 180 degrees from Weeds. That said – did you look at any more recent games (and games where he replaced in)? I haven't dug into him myself. I need to put that on my to-do list.

That seems like an awful lot of research to do in 80 minutes...

Are you just tunnelling vollkan here?

I think we should lynch the guy who just claimed doc and got CCd. I'll go ahead and:
VOTE: Jason

Thanks for coming in and providing nothing in the way of opinion as to who Jason's partners are.

Jason has been countered and I think it is pretty plain that he’s full of crap.

NOTE – HE IS AT L-1 SO DO NOT HAMMER UNTIL LOCKE GETS SOME CHANCE TO WEIGH IN ON THE DAY.

If Jason does indeed flip Scum (which I'm 99.99% sure he will at this point) I think Jack should be next in line. Read his interactions with Jason today and how he 'transitions' to Jason as scum instead of me.

MOD

- I'll be V/LA from 4pm EDT until Monday in the evening for weekend family duties and my wife's surgery Monday.

[MagnaofIllusion]

In the time remaining I think everyone should give attention to the following players over night –

1. Jack – His flip-flop today on Jason based on ‘meta’ and his previous interactions with Jason are worth a closer look. I also haven’t forgotten his ‘Masonizer’ gambit.

2. Zajnet – The second day in a row he has provided no content and has posted a horrible late vote. Day 1 he hammered Charlie without asking for a claim. Today his unsupported vote allowed Jason to self hammer, which prevented further scum-connection hunting and kept Locke from making any contributions today.

3. Poro and Ythan – both are lurking and providing little content.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Since we have a flipped scum I’m going to do a VC analysis for Day 1 and Day 2. I find it tends to clear my head when I’m focused on prior day suspects. Proven scum show up as red. Proven Town show us as blue. I don’t color myself blue because althought I am proven to myself I’m not proven Town for all players so don’t ask why I'm in black. All replaced players have the current slot holder in all vote-counts for ease of readability.

Spoiler: Day 1

Vote Count #1 of Day 1

Erg0 (1) <-~ Zajnet
Locke Lamora (1) <-~ farside22
Porochaz (1) <-~

Charlie

Sotty7 (2) <-~ Locke Lamora,

JasonT1981

Charlie

(1) <-~ Erg0
MagnaofIllusion (1) <-~

vollkan

JasonT1981

(1) <-~ Sotty7
Zajnet (2) <-~ MagnaofIllusion, Porochaz

vollkan

(1) <-~ Jack
Jack (1) <-~ Sando

Vote Count #2 of Day 1

Erg0 (1) <-~ Zajnet
Porochaz (2) <-~ farside22,

JasonT1981

Sotty7 (3) <-~ Locke Lamora, Porochaz, Jack

Charlie

(1) <-~ Erg0
MagnaofIllusion (1) <-~

vollkan

Zajnet (1) <-~ MagnaofIllusion
Jack (2) <-~ Sando, Sotty7
Sando (1) <-~

Charlie

Vote Count #3 of Day 1

Erg0 (1) <-~ Zajnet
Porochaz (2) <-~ farside22,

JasonT1981

Sotty7 (2) <-~ Locke Lamora, Porochaz

Charlie

(1) <-~ Erg0
MagnaofIllusion (1) <-~

vollkan

Zajnet (1) <-~ MagnaofIllusion
Jack (2) <-~ Sando, Sotty7
Sando (1) <-~

Charlie

Locke Lamora (1) <-~ Jack

Vote Count #4 of Day 1

Sotty7 (2) <-~ Porochaz,

Charlie

Charlie

(3) <-~ Erg0, MagnaofIllusion, Sotty7
MagnaofIllusion (5) <-~

vollkan,

Jack,

JasonT1981

, Zajnet, farside22
Jack (1) <-~ Sando
Zajnet (1) <-~ Locke Lamora

Vote Count #5 of Day 1

Sotty7 (1) <-~ Porochaz

Charlie

(4) <-~ Erg0, MagnaofIllusion, Sotty7, farside22
MagnaofIllusion (4) <-~ Jack,

JasonT1981

, Zajnet,

Charlie

Jack (2) <-~ Sando,

vollkan

Zajnet (1) <-~ Locke Lamora

Vote Count #6 of Day 1

Charlie

(5) <-~ Erg0, MagnaofIllusion, Sotty7, farside22, Sando
MagnaofIllusion (4) <-~ Jack,

JasonT1981

, Zajnet,

Charlie

Jack (1) <-~

vollkan

Zajnet (1) <-~ Locke Lamora

Not voting (1) <-~ Porochaz

Vote Count #7 of Day 1

Charlie

(5) <-~ Erg0, MagnaofIllusion, Sotty7, farside22, Sando
MagnaofIllusion (4) <-~ Jack,

JasonT1981

, Zajnet,

Charlie

Jack (1) <-~

vollkan

Zajnet (2) <-~ Locke Lamora, Porochaz

Vote Count #8 of Day 1

Charlie

(4) <-~ Erg0, MagnaofIllusion, farside22, Sando
MagnaofIllusion (3) <-~ Jack, Zajnet,

Charlie

Jack (1) <-~ vollkan
Zajnet (2) <-~ Porochaz,

JasonT1981

JasonT1981

(2) <-~ Sotty7, Locke Lamora

Vote Count #9 of Day 1

Charlie

(6) <-~ Erg0, MagnaofIllusion, farside22, Sando,

jasonT1981

, Sotty7
MagnaofIllusion (3) <-~ Zajnet,

Charlie

, Jack
Jack (1) <-~

vollkan

Zajnet (2) <-~ Porochaz, Locke Lamora

Incognito's Final Vote Count of Day 1

Charlie

(7) <-~ Erg0, MagnaofIllusion, farside22, Sando,

jasonT1981

, Sotty7, Zajnet
MagnaofIllusion (2) <-~

Charlie

, Jack
Jack (1) <-~

vollkan

Zajnet (2) <-~ Porochaz, Locke Lamora

Spoiler: Day 2

Vote Count #1 of Day 2

Zajnet (2) <-~ farside22, Jack

Not voting (9) <-~ Erg0,

vollkan

, Locke Lamora, MagnaofIllusion, Porochaz, Sando, Sotty7,

jasonT1981

, Zajnet

Vote Count #2 of Day 2

Zajnet (1) <-~ farside22

jasonT1981

(1) <-~ Sotty7
Jack (1) <-~ Erg0
MagnaofIllusion (1) <-~ Jack

Not voting (7) <-~

vollkan

, Locke Lamora, MagnaofIllusion, Porochaz, Sando,

jasonT1981

, Zajnet

Vote Count #3 of Day 2

Zajnet (1) <-~ farside22

jasonT1981

(2) <-~ Sotty7, MagnaofIllusion
Jack (2) <-~ Erg0, Sando
MagnaofIllusion (1) <-~ Jack

Not voting (5) <-~

vollkan,

Locke Lamora, Porochaz, Zajnet,

jasonT1981

Vote Count #4 of Day 2

jasonT1981

(3) <-~ Sotty7, MagnaofIllusion, farside22
Jack (2) <-~ Erg0, Sando
Erg0 (1) <-~ Jack

Not voting (5) <-~

vollkan

, Locke Lamora, Porochaz, Zajnet,

jasonT1981

Vote Count #5 of Day 2

jasonT1981

(4) <-~ Sotty7, MagnaofIllusion, farside22,

vollkan

Jack (1) <-~ Erg0
Erg0 (1) <-~ Jack

vollkan

(2) <-~ Sando,

jasonT1981

Not voting (3) <-~ Locke Lamora, Porochaz, Zajnet

Vote Count #6 of Day 2

jasonT1981

(5) <-~ Sotty7, MagnaofIllusion, farside22,

vollkan

, Jack
Jack (1) <-~ Erg0

vollkan

(2) <-~ Sando,

jasonT1981

Not voting (3) <-~ Locke Lamora, Porochaz, Zajnet

Incognito's Final Vote Count of Day 2

jasonT1981

(6) <-~ Sotty7, MagnaofIllusion, farside22,

vollkan

, Zajnet,

jasonT1981

Jack (1) <-~ Erg0

vollkan

(1) <-~ Sando
Zajnet (1) <-~ Jack

Not voting (2) <-~ Locke Lamora, Porochaz

This is the raw data, hidden in spoiler text for those adverse to large posts. Analysis follows.

[MagnaofIllusion]

EBWOP - I failed to color Sotty7 blue in the mass analysis. This is an error. vollkan's flip as Weak Doc confirms Sotty7 is Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

In looking at the VC I’m going to focus my analysis on the following counts / series of counts. When I’m referring to unknown players in the analysis I’m specifically referring to players with alignments unknown to me.

Day 1:

The dueling Charlie versus MoI Wagons –

Charlie

(3) <-~ Erg0, MagnaofIllusion,

Sotty7

MagnaofIllusion (5) <-~

vollkan

, Jack,

JasonT1981

, Zajnet, farside22

Charlie

(4) <-~ Erg0, MagnaofIllusion,

Sotty7

, farside22
MagnaofIllusion (4) <-~ Jack,

JasonT1981

, Zajnet,

Charlie

Charlie

(5) <-~ Erg0, MagnaofIllusion,

Sotty7

, farside22, Sando
MagnaofIllusion (4) <-~ Jack,

JasonT1981

, Zajnet,

Charlie

Charlie

(4) <-~ Erg0, MagnaofIllusion, farside22, Sando
MagnaofIllusion (3) <-~ Jack, Zajnet,

Charlie

Prior to the first count Charlie and I were both a 1 vote – Erg0 for Charlie and vollkan for me. From a grouping standpoint I find it most likely that scum probably committed at most 2 members to each wagon (Charlie and mine) at the wagons peak. All three appearing on the wagon early in the day would be suicide based on the kind of analysis I am doing now.

Unknown players on my peak wagon – jack, Zaj, farside
Unknown players on Charlie’s peak wagon - Erg0, farside, Sando

I don’t think there is more than 1 scum in the set of jack, Zaj and farside. We know Jason was on my wagon during the two peaks.

I think there is at most two scum in the set of Ergo, farside, Sando.

Charlie’s final wagon –

Charlie

(7) <-~ Erg0, MagnaofIllusion, farside22, Sando,

jasonT1981

, S

otty7

, Zajnet
MagnaofIllusion (2) <-~

Charlie

, Jack
Jack (1) <-~

vollkan

Zajnet (2) <-~ Porochaz, Locke Lamora


If there are three scum on this wagon I’d be surprised. That only makes sense if Zajnet is scum. If Zajnet is not scum one scum is more than likely off the Charlie wagon.

Unknown players on final wagon – Erg0, farside22, Sando, Zajnet
Unknown players off the final wagon – Jack, Porochaz, Locke

Day 2:

The abbreviated nature of the day and the fact that we only have one major wagon leads me to focus on the major wagon and any budding counterwagons.

Jason’s Wagon as it built –

jasonT1981

(1) <-~

Sotty7

jasonT1981

(2) <-~

Sotty7

, MagnaofIllusion

jasonT1981

(3) <-~

Sotty7

, MagnaofIllusion, farside22

jasonT1981

(4) <-~ S

otty7

, MagnaofIllusion, farside22,

vollkan

jasonT1981

(5) <-~

Sotty7,

MagnaofIllusion, farside22,

vollkan

, Jack

jasonT1981

(6) <-~

Sotty7

, MagnaofIllusion, farside22,

vollkan

, Zajnet,

jasonT1981

Those not on Jason at lynch -

Jack (1) <-~ Erg0
vollkan (1) <-~ Sando
Zajnet (1) <-~ Jack

Not voting (2) <-~ Locke Lamora, Porochaz

Jason’s self-vote tells me that he was trying to protect at least one of his scum partners. Otherwise he wouldn’t have self-hammered. Also the wagon was very consistent through the day with only Jack getting off right before the self-hammer.

If Zajnet is scum then farside is very unlikely to be. This further strenghthe
If Zajnet is Town the likelihood that farside is scum rises slightly. It is possible that Jason was protecting both partners so it is only a marginal rise.

There is at least 1 scum in the set of Erg0, Sando, Jack, Locke and Poro.

Budding counterwagons –

Zajnet (2) <-~ farside22, Jack

Jack (2) <-~ Erg0, Sando

vollkan

(2) <-~ Sando,

jasonT1981

These are the only other players with more than 1 vote during the day’s VCs. Based on the fact that Sando was on two separate budding wagons while Jason’s wagon built he is one I see as most likely trying to divert from Jason.

Farside, jack and Erg0 all still bear watching.

Other factors for both Days – Jason’s vote movement –

On Day 1 Jason first appears on Sotty and later switches to Poro. He then parks on my wagon until Charlie’s solidifies itself as the stronger wagon. He then moves Zaj before hoping onto Charlie in 6th position.

On Day 2 he holds off voting for a significant amount of time before voting for vollkan. His vote stays here until he self-hammers.

I’m looking at his Poro and Zajnet votes as most likely votes meant to skew a VC analysis. He wasn’t under voting pressure Day 1 and thus was free to make bussing votes. I especially think this is true because he didn’t return to either of those players Day 2 but went for a now-confirmed Town with his vote.

Going into the day I was most focused on Jack and Zajnet as likely scum based on Jack’s Day 1 interaction with Jason and Zajnet’s horrible voting both days and his lack of contributions.

Based on the VC analysis I have the following thoughts –

Zajnet’s position on the wagons combined with other factors (Jason’s self hammering, etc) makes him a lynch-pin in determining scum via this style of analysis. I don’t think he can be scum with farside or Jack for the reasons mentioned above. If he is scum it goes a long way to clearing two more players and making a POE endgame viable. Also, Jason’s vote for him before joining the Charlie wagon at the end of Day 1 looks like distancing.

farside appears in more suspicious places based on my analysis than I would have expected given my read. I’ll have to re-ISO her with a fresh set of eyes.

Erg0 and Sando also appear multiple places of suspicion during both days. I’m going to review Sando’s ISO to look closely at his day 2 contributions. Erg0 will be assessed as he goes with my thumb on the scum side of the ledger as CDB / Ythan’s total lack of contribution to the game strike me as scumtastic.

VOTE: Zajnetfor the moment as the VC analysis doesn’t lessen my suspicion of his play.

[MagnaofIllusion]

QFT to farside’s 501

. Scum have shown they have no compunctions self-hammering if caught. Anyone who puts Sando at L-1 and facilitates the end of the day before

1. farside returns and posts said content, and
2. Erg0 finishes his ‘catch-up’ posts and gives some actual reads that can be used to assess his slot

they deserve to be roasted over hot coals. If you feel Sando is obv-scum FOS him at this point.

@MOD

– I’ll be V/LA from now til sometime Monday for regular weekend and holiday family duties.

First general responses to posts –

@Poro

– why is Locke not listed at all on your ‘Who is in the game’ post at 455?

In regards to lurking, or lurking within this game, Im now past the point of caring to be honest, vote for me, or don't. Im not going to defend myself against something which is true in that Im playing this game in the background to some of the other games, its a shame because if you look at the player list for all the games Im playing, I actually like this one the best overall. Im getting into this game as much as I can but it's not happening at the moment, but be sure as soon as I find a hook I'll be onto it with my same "fierceness" as in my other games.

Umm what? You aren’t going to defend that you are active lurking right through the game with the minimum of content. My question is – why if you like the playerlist and overall game here the best why are you playing ‘in the background’? That makes no sense.

I need to reread looking specifically for connections to Jason now, but a preliminary look over MOI's analysis seems to show that Sando is the scummiest because of voting patterns. However, I am not comfortable enough in that to vote for anyone, especially with Sando at L-2.

Storing this for future reference regarding possible links between Zajnet and Sando.

FYI, after that game, I got the very distinct impression that Poro is very anti-bussing.

Do you have a link to support this vague assertion? And what are you trying to say with this statement? That if Poro is scum you can’t be a buddy because he doesn’t bus? Can you explain the why the inherent WIFOM of that conclusion should be ignored?

Jack, you seem to spend your entire time saying 'Zajnet is DEFINITELY SCUM, but let's lynch this other guy...'.

This is a good point that I’d like any players not named Jack to address. What do you make of his constant shifting towards whatever wagon seems strong / popular. A quick run-down of Jack’s opinions about who is scum or the day's lynch–

Day 1 -

UNVOTE, VOTE:SANDO

NOT SO FAST SCUM

Are you guys blind? Why aren't you voting sando?

This listed as much to highlight potential early distancing. Sando is obv-scum early Day 1. It disappears and lo and behold Sando only becomes the obv-scum lynch again Day 3 when Sando is under fire.

magno is very scummy, don't think it needs to be explained.

Here I am public scum enemy number 1. In context this is just as my bandwagon Day 1 really took off.

Day 2 –

vote:moi

other scum between zajnet, imkingdavid, and maybe jason.

Begins the day on me. Note that IKD / vollkan is confirmed Town via death and that ‘maybe Jason’ is scum.

moi is still scum, but zajnet is obvscum too, see for yourself if you don't believe me.

Now look – Zajnet is obv-scum dejour now that he can’t resurrect my wagon.

jason why don't you vote for someone?

@sotty: yeah, he's amusing inconsistent in a scummy way, I'll probably vote for him if you quit asking me too.

Says he would vote for Jason if Sotty stopped bugging him. His next post? Revotes me? What happened to Zajnet as obv-scum?

But there's no excuse not to be voting moi right now.

Note Jason only has 1 vote at this juncture. His wagon hasn’t taken off.

Jason is null.

For context - Jason has 3 votes and five players aren’t yet voting.

moi has been very fakey

jason isn't that different from the game I mislynched him in, and he has scum pushing his lynch

I believe we should lynch ythan however. unvote, vote:ythan

Jason’s lynch is scum driven
Also suddenly lurker Ythan / Erg0 is so much scummier than lurker Zajnet. What? Zaj was obv scum not so long ago and had done NOTHING in the game since Jack voiced that opinion. Yet Ythan is now the must lynch.

Not voting (5) <-~ vollkan, Locke Lamora, Porochaz, Zajnet, jasonT1981

Vote ythan.

For context – Jason is still not under significant fire.

I propose a sando-farside-jack-sotty "townie discussion group". Although maybe sando still thinks I'm mafia. But I think discussing the game with people you generally trust leads to more insight than arguing with mafia. Topics:

Emphasis added – yes Sando is a “Townie” Day 2.

Jack speculates on any number of ‘Scum’ teams including myself, Sotty, vollkan, Zanjet and Ythan / Erg0 as the day goes on.

hmm, moi's posts leading up to deadline don't seem to be from a scum point of view.

It seems like I dropped jason after the start today because of moi going on his wagon. He is actually scummy and I trust sotty and farside.

unvote, vote:Jason

Jason is the obvious lynch today and suddenly Jack has a change of heart. In context this puts Jason at L-1. He unvotes in his next post.

Zajnet is scum vote:zajnet

Now Zajnet is scum again.

unvote, vote:Jason

Last page is pretty bad, someone hammer, don't wait for a claim.

Obv setting up fake-claim is obv.

unvote, vote:zajnet

I was thinking there weren't any worthwhile power roles after cop and that it would be best to push through without a claim. doc is sort of confirmed though...hmm.

Really? Cops are the only worthwhile PR you could think of?

Baring a counterclaim of jason, there is no earthly reason not to lynch zajnet instead.

Pushes for a counterclaim.

Zajnet is so clearly the lynch for tomorrow.

Once again Zajnet is obvscum.

Day 3 –

Starts off with ISO 69 containing simply “vote:zajnet”.

Just vote for zajnet.

But anyway, I said to myself "it has to be ergo because the only other option for zaj's partner is porochaz and he seems town" but I checked the playerlist and saw sando, reread in ISO, sando is scum. Very much so.

Wait suddenly Sando is scum again despite being only mentioned since early Day 1 as part of Jack’s “Town discussion group”. In context Poro has just attacked Sando and Sando has 1 vote.

I wasn't being sarcastic, I really do love it. You kind of don't notice him but when you look back it's obvious.

Yes he was Town when Jack went looking to buddy up to people Day 2.

Summary – Jack’s opinion about scum seems pretty much to float to wherever popular opinon seems headed. I’m scum Day 1. Jason is null / Town until too much pressure arrives on him. Then he’s scum but Jack facilitates the Doc fake-claim. Sando is town until today when he’s under pressure and wham – he’s scum.

This isn't scum-hunting. Jack's just playing off his 'meta' to do nothing but sling accusations at the Town approved targets or lurkers who aren't around to fight back.

UNVOTE: Zajnet
VOTE: Jack

[MagnaofIllusion]

You quote me:

a) claiming you were guilty when you were not a town approved target
b) claiming the jason wagon was bad when he was to the town approved target
c) calling sando scum after one person jumped on them

In response –

A. You did so at the start of Day 2 when, if you are scum, you must have had some hope that I’d be run right up again since I was the counterwagon to Charlie. When it became apparent that this was not going to happen your change of heart occurs.
B. You did claim the Jason wagon was bad until it was inevitable. Are you suggesting this clears you somehow of bussing?
C. Let’s look at the time-line –

447 – Your first post of the Day for Zajnet once again.
453 – “Just vote for Zajnet” from you.
455 – Poro votes for Sando for his attack on vollkan
456 – farside questions Sotty about why not a vote on other lurkers like “zajnet or even Sando”
457 – Erg0’s partnership analysis post that sticks Sando as a candidate with little Jason / Zach interaction.
462 – Suddenly despite your Day 2 Town read on Sando suddenly he’s obvscum in review of his ISO.

Do you see how I find this sudden shift troublesome. Poro voted for him and farside and Erg0 make posts that indicate their possible suspicion of Sando.

If you are scum and Sando is scum with you I can certainly see you trying to bus him as early as possible given how your interaction with Jason looks for you.

If you are scum and Sando is town I can see you wanting to move to a more palatable mislynch given your Zajnet quest seems not to be taking off.

The fact that I can see motivations for your play as scum regardless of Sando’s alignment makes me believe (along with what I mention later) that you are a better lynch than Sando.

@Zajnet

re 515 – This makes my skin crawl. This sort of ‘support’ for Jack as a candidate actually gives him Town cred.

Its also not my meta. I now am doing it myself, self meta-ing doesn't work but I don't want to be known as the guy who lurks through games because generally Im not. People like farside and erg0 will be able to vouch for me on that one I hope.

If you have time to make multiple posts like this you have time to scum-hunt. As it is this is a perfect example of how to active lurk in a game.

Why I Don’t Think Sando Would Ignore his Partner as Scum –

My direct play experience with Sando as scum is
Weeds Mafia.

He was scum with Ooba and Konowa / Crywolf. I re-read the game. He bussed Ooba Day 1 when there was some chance he would be the lynch over McGriddle. He directly questions and interacts with ooba and Kowona to some degree. My personal experience says he would not ignore Jason if he was scum partners with him, especially given the heat Sotty applied to Zach / Jason Day 1.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm leaning strongly towards a jason/Sando/Jack scum trio at this point. Definitely want to lynch one of the last two today, Sando's not ripe for lynch -1 yet so...

Vote: Jack

You have stated you have a scum read on Sando in 511. At the time you made this vote Sando had 3 votes and Jack only 1. If you think they are both members of the scum team why push on the member with less votes? Why are you afraid to put Sando at L-1?

Given that Sando's scumteam lost that game, do you think he could have learned from it and changed his scum style? Do you recall whether scum interactions were a big part of the reason for Sando and ooba's lynches on the last two days?

Scum interactions had little to do with the scum team being lynched. I was V/LA for basically all three scum lynches. Flavor of claims is what doomed the Mafia there combined with a smidgeon of PoE. Nothing to do with interactions.

So, no, I don’t think Sando decided to change his scum play as his bussing / interactions didn’t result in his team’s loss.

So if I'm scum, Jack probably isn't. Cool, because I'm not scum.

Not my point but possibly true. What makes it so scumtastic is that you haven’t scum-hunted or made any sort of comments about Jack that I can see in your ISO. You swoop in (much like your avatar), make a vote with little reasoning and disappear.

The fact that you chose to ignore the Sando wagon is an interaction I will be keeping my eye on.

MOI do you think Sando is likely town then?

Nope that’s a logical leap I’m not willing to make. I’m only stating that I don’t that his ignoring of Jason is a scum-tell. Below is my analysis of Sando’s ISO.

Sando’s ISO -

ISO 0 – Votes Jack for the tell “first to accuse of rolefishing is scum”. Note that this is the ‘boilerplate’ scumtell, which vollkan attacks on Day 2.

ISO 1 is the last significant direct interaction with Jack.

ISO 2 – 7 he goes back and forth with Farside significantly over issues regarding Jack’s meta free pass Day 1 and issues related to Sotty.

ISO 8 – Disagrees with Charlie’s decision to put me at L-1 while he is ‘divided’.

ISO 10 – Comments on IKD’s case on Jack and elaborates further reasons why he feels Jack is scummy and why Jack’s defenses are not credible.

ISO 11 – Move vote to Charlie for Charlie’s “Quickhammer would be under scrutiny” comment. ISO 12 follows up explaining why to Charlie.

ISO 13 - Light attack on Poro for not taking ‘stands’.

ISO 14 ends the day discussing Charlie.

ISO 15 starts Day 2 with a renewed vote for Jack based on role-fishing. States Jack is ‘muchos scummier’ than Zajnet.

ISO 16 – Attacks vollkan for his attack on Sando for using ‘boilerplate’ tells.

ISO 17 – Votes vollkan over the boilerplate issue with a touch of self-meta.

ISO 18 and 19 – Back and forth with vollkan regarding Poro’s inactivity.

ISO 20 – Answers questions about his scum-reads (Jack, Yhtan / Erg0 and vollkan)

ISO 23 – Long defense of his scum meta and a vote for Poro for inconsistency in voting / scum-reads.

ISO 24 – More scum meta defense. Admits to ignoring Jason but states it is not deliberate. Attacks Jack for ‘Saying Y is scummy but voting Z”

ISO 25 – More meta scum discussion and questions to Locke / Poro / Jack regarding his relative scumminess in comparison to Zajnet.

ISO 26 to 29 – More arguments against him being scum based on meta.

ISO 30 – Votes Locke for being opportunistic.

ISO 31 – Responds to questions regarding his and Poro’s scum game together

ISO 32 – Answers question from Sotty regarding his Jason.

I've voted Jack for most of the game, I've decided that I'm best served highlighting the things that I find wrong with Poro and Locke at the moment.

Sando – if you are sure Jack is scum why are you better served highlighting Poro and Locke at the moment? Isn’t your later Day 2 / Day 3 play to this point the same thing that you have accused others of – ‘Jack is scummy, but I’m voting for Poro / Locke’?

ISO 34 – Questions Erg0 about his scum partnership reads.

ISO 35 – Comments about Zajnet’s vote for Jack.

ISO 36 to 38– Contradictory point that he is not attacking Poro on meta. All statements regarding Poro relate to his play in other games as scum.

ISO 40 – First direct scum-hunting on Jack since early Day 1. Accompanied by a vote.

I’m getting a scum read from Sando at this point. He’s called Jack as scum for the majority of the game but hasn’t actively worked towards proving that via scum-hunting. In fact his focus on Jack really wilts Day 2.

Many of his posts are framed from a defensive position.

The timing of his renewed attention to Jack (aligned with Jack’s sudden attention to Sando) strike me as possible bussing.

Overall most of his ‘scum-hunting’ revolves around meta attacks, which he states in ISO 2 he dislikes (emphasis added)

Funnily enough, having not played a significant number of games with anyone here,

I can't really contribute to the meta discussion, doesn't really bother me though, I hate meta arguments.

He's been hammering multiple people for 'Call Y Scum, Vote X" when he looks to be doing the same thing with Jack in the last Day.

Finally that last bit of self-contradiction regarding his attacks on Poro triggers one of my top Scum-tells - Cognitive Dissonance.

UNVOTE: Jack.

At this point I really need to assess how strongly I think Sando and Jack are likely scum partners. If I do either is a good lynch. If I don't I really need to weigh the scumminess of the two.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Other than Poro and a single post on Ythan, who's scum-meta have I even mentioned? I've defended my own meta, I haven't attacked anyone over their own meta. And my 'attack' on Poro was merely to Null a town-meta read from someone.

That’s really my point. You really haven’t done much attacking / questioning of anyone in the game. Except for your very recent post on Jack you really have only gone after vollkan and poro. Thus even though your haven’t talked much meta what you have talked about has constituted a large part of your scum-hunting.

Are you saying the only reason that you even have questioned Poro is not because you think he is scummy but because someone else had a Town read?

Does the post below ring any bells?

Yes it does. That said I made that post so that you and farside could provide content. By the time you made your vote you had already made point 2 moot. The post was more directed at anyone not named Erg0 and farside.

I'm curious about the timing of your hop off the wagon, though - why don't you want Jack at lynch-1?

MOI's last post was all kinds of strange for me. He talks about Sando's scum meta in that one game where he doesn't ignore his partners but then goes on about how Sando could be scum. Feels off to me, like he wants it both ways. The unvote was weird too. I'm not getting it.

These posts have similar themes so I lumped my response together on them.

1. I wasn’t going to declare Sando scum based on some meta that pretty clearly is in dispute. Based on his ISO his play seems scummy to me. But for reasons in part 2 he’s not getting my vote.

2. I unvoted Jack to see his reaction. As the pressure has built on him today he’s turned very passive. Sando retaliated to Jack’s placing him at L-1 by doing the same. Both votes to L-1 seem like very unlikely busses and somewhat opportunistic. Jack hasn’t returned since my Unvote. Were he Town who was fighting for his life I would expect him to be take the chance my unvote offered to make a stronger case for his ‘scum’ candidate.

Sando is active in the thread and is making an effort at defending himself. IMO Jack is just hoping to let the pressure slide right off. Unless we have managed to wagon two scum to L-1 I’m more confident based on my overall scum read on Jack that he’s the lynch.

VOTE: Jack

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Poro Again

– I don’t recall seeing an answer to these.

@Poro – why is Locke not listed at all on your ‘Who is in the game’ post at 455?

My question is – why if you like the playerlist and overall game here the best why are you playing ‘in the background’? That makes no sense.

Mod

– I’ll be V/LA til Monday for regular family weekend duties.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Erg0

He is scum. Who his buddy is will be harder to figure out.

If you have information that assures this I’m on-board. If not I'll look at Erg0 in ISO again before committing.

Otherwise I think Jack is a worthy lynch today.

“Do the right thing farside” – bleh AtE for the loss.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Let's see -

Sotty is confirmed Town.
Sotty has no reason to lie about having role information.
Sotty says Erg0 is scum.

Goodbye Erg0!!!

VOTE: Erg0

[MagnaofIllusion]

Now that we have another scum flip I want to revist my previous VC analysis and update for the new information.

Please don't end the Day early today - yesterday had a good result but we once again allowed scum to self-hammer and possibly protect their last partner.

I probably will not be able to do my full analysis until Monday so please don't end the day early. Feel free to put anyone at L-1 (since there are no partners left to protect) but don't hammer them.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Here's the revised Day 1 and 2 raw vote data.

Spoiler: Day 1

Ergo

(1) <-~ Zajnet
Locke Lamora (1) <-~ farside22
Porochaz (1) <-~

Charlie

Sotty7

(2) <-~ Locke Lamora,

JasonT1981

Charlie

(1) <-~

Ergo

MagnaofIllusion (1) <-~

vollkan

JasonT1981

(1) <-~

Sotty7

Zajnet (2) <-~ MagnaofIllusion, Porochaz

vollkan

(1) <-~ Jack
Jack (1) <-~

Sando

Vote Count #2 of Day 1

Ergo

(1) <-~ Zajnet
Porochaz (2) <-~ farside22,

JasonT1981

Sotty7

(3) <-~ Locke Lamora, Porochaz, Jack

Charlie

(1) <-~

Ergo

MagnaofIllusion (1) <-~

vollkan

Zajnet (1) <-~ MagnaofIllusion
Jack (2) <-~

Sando

,

Sotty7

Sando

(1) <-~

Charlie

Vote Count #3 of Day 1

Ergo

(1) <-~ Zajnet
Porochaz (2) <-~ farside22,

JasonT1981

Sotty7

(2) <-~ Locke Lamora, Porochaz

Charlie

(1) <-~

Ergo

MagnaofIllusion (1) <-~

vollkan

Zajnet (1) <-~ MagnaofIllusion
Jack (2) <-~

Sando

,

Sotty7

Sando

(1) <-~

Charlie

Locke Lamora (1) <-~ Jack

Vote Count #4 of Day 1

Sotty7

(2) <-~ Porochaz,

Charlie

Charlie

(3) <-~

Ergo

, MagnaofIllusion,

Sotty7

MagnaofIllusion (5) <-~

vollkan

, Jack,

JasonT1981

, Zajnet, farside22
Jack (1) <-~

Sando

Zajnet (1) <-~ Locke Lamora

Vote Count #5 of Day 1

Sotty7

(1) <-~ Porochaz

Charlie

(4) <-~

Ergo

, MagnaofIllusion,

Sotty7

, farside22
MagnaofIllusion (4) <-~ Jack,

JasonT1981

, Zajnet,

Charlie

Jack (2) <-~

Sando

,

vollkan

Zajnet (1) <-~ Locke Lamora

Vote Count #6 of Day 1

Charlie

(5) <-~

Ergo

, MagnaofIllusion,

Sotty7

, farside22,

Sando

MagnaofIllusion (4) <-~ Jack,

JasonT1981

, Zajnet,

Charlie

Jack (1) <-~

vollkan

Zajnet (1) <-~ Locke Lamora

Not voting (1) <-~ Porochaz

Vote Count #7 of Day 1

Charlie

(5) <-~

Ergo

, MagnaofIllusion,

Sotty7

, farside22,

Sando

MagnaofIllusion (4) <-~ Jack,

JasonT1981

, Zajnet,

Charlie

Jack (1) <-~

vollkan

Zajnet (2) <-~ Locke Lamora, Porochaz

Vote Count #8 of Day 1

Charlie

(4) <-~

Ergo

, MagnaofIllusion, farside22,

Sando

MagnaofIllusion (3) <-~ Jack, Zajnet,

Charlie

Jack (1) <-~

vollkan

Zajnet (2) <-~ Porochaz,

JasonT1981

JasonT1981

(2) <-~

Sotty7

, Locke Lamora

Vote Count #9 of Day 1

Charlie

(6) <-~

Ergo

, MagnaofIllusion, farside22,

Sando

,

JasonT1981

,

Sotty7

MagnaofIllusion (3) <-~ Zajnet,

Charlie

, Jack
Jack (1) <-~

vollkan

Zajnet (2) <-~ Porochaz, Locke Lamora

Incognito's Final Vote Count of Day 1

Charlie

(7) <-~

Ergo

, MagnaofIllusion, farside22,

Sando

,

JasonT1981

,

Sotty7

, Zajnet
MagnaofIllusion (2) <-~

Charlie

, Jack
Jack (1) <-~

vollkan

Zajnet (2) <-~ Porochaz, Locke Lamora

Spoiler: Day 2

Vote Count #1 of Day 2

Zajnet (2) <-~ farside22, Jack

Not voting (9) <-~

Ergo

,

vollkan

, Locke Lamora, MagnaofIllusion, Porochaz,

Sando

,

Sotty7

,

JasonT1981

, Zajnet

Vote Count #2 of Day 2

Zajnet (1) <-~ farside22

JasonT1981

(1) <-~

Sotty7

Jack (1) <-~

Ergo

MagnaofIllusion (1) <-~ Jack

Not voting (7) <-~

vollkan

, Locke Lamora, MagnaofIllusion, Porochaz,

Sando

,

JasonT1981

, Zajnet

Vote Count #3 of Day 2

Zajnet (1) <-~ farside22

JasonT1981

(2) <-~

Sotty7

, MagnaofIllusion
Jack (2) <-~

Ergo

,

Sando

MagnaofIllusion (1) <-~ Jack

Not voting (5) <-~

vollkan

, Locke Lamora, Porochaz, Zajnet,

JasonT1981

Vote Count #4 of Day 2

JasonT1981

(3) <-~

Sotty7

, MagnaofIllusion, farside22
Jack (2) <-~

Ergo

,

Sando

Ergo

(1) <-~ Jack

Not voting (5) <-~

vollkan

, Locke Lamora, Porochaz, Zajnet,

JasonT1981

Vote Count #5 of Day 2

JasonT1981

(4) <-~

Sotty7

, MagnaofIllusion, farside22,

vollkan

Jack (1) <-~

Ergo

Ergo

(1) <-~ Jack

vollkan

(2) <-~

Sando

,

JasonT1981

Not voting (3) <-~ Locke Lamora, Porochaz, Zajnet

Vote Count #6 of Day 2

JasonT1981

(5) <-~

Sotty7

, MagnaofIllusion, farside22,

vollkan

, Jack
Jack (1) <-~

Ergo

vollkan

(2) <-~

Sando

,

JasonT1981

Not voting (3) <-~ Locke Lamora, Porochaz, Zajnet

Incognito's Final Vote Count of Day 2

JasonT1981

(6) <-~

Sotty7

, MagnaofIllusion, farside22,

vollkan

, Zajnet,

JasonT1981

Jack (1) <-~

Ergo

vollkan

(1) <-~

Sando

Zajnet (1) <-~ Jack

Not voting (2) <-~ Locke Lamora, Porochaz

[MagnaofIllusion]

Here are the Raw Day 3 Vote Counts –

Spoiler: Day 3

Vote Count #1 of Day 3

Zajnet (1) <-~ Jack

Erg0

(1) <-~

Sotty7

Not voting (7) <-~

Erg0

, farside22, Locke Lamora, MagnaofIllusion, Porochaz,

Sando

, Zajnet

Vote Count #2 of Day 3

Zajnet (2) <-~ Jack, MagnaofIllusion

Sando

(3) <-~ Porochaz, Locke Lamora,

Sotty7

Porochaz (1) <-~

Sando

Not voting (3) <-~

Erg0

, farside22, Zajnet

Vote Count #3 of Day 3

Zajnet (2) <-~ Jack, MagnaofIllusion

Sando

(3) <-~ Porochaz, Locke Lamora,

Sotty7

Locke Lamora (1) <-~

Sando

Not voting (3) <-~

Erg0

, farside22, Zajnet

Vote Count #4 of Day 3

Zajnet (1) <-~ Jack

Sando

(3) <-~ Porochaz, Locke Lamora,

Sotty7

Locke Lamora (1) <-~

Sando

Jack (3) <-~ MagnaofIllusion,

Erg0

, Zajnet

Not voting (1) <-~ farside22

Vote Count #5 of Day 3

Sando

(4) <-~ Porochaz, Locke Lamora,

Sotty7

, Jack
Jack (3) <-~

Erg0

, Zajnet,

Sando

Not voting (2) <-~ farside22, MagnaofIllusion

Vote Count #6 of Day 3

Sando

(4) <-~ Porochaz, Locke Lamora,

Sotty7

, Jack
Jack (4) <-~

Erg0

, Zajnet,

Sando

, MagnaofIllusion

Not voting (1) <-~ farside22

Incognito's Final Vote Count of Day 3

Sando

(5) <-~ Porochaz, Locke Lamora,

Sotty7

, Jack, farside22
Jack (4) <-~

Erg0

, Zajnet,

Sando

, MagnaofIllusion

[MagnaofIllusion]

Day 1 and 2 Revisited –

Erg0’s flip solidifies my opinion that scum split themselves on the dueling Day 1 wagons between Charlie and myself.

Charlie

(3) <-~

Erg0

, MagnaofIllusion,

Sotty7

MagnaofIllusion (5) <-~

vollkan

, Jack,

JasonT1981

, Zajnet, farside22

Charlie

(4) <-~

Erg0

, MagnaofIllusion,

Sotty7

, farside22
MagnaofIllusion (4) <-~ Jack,

JasonT1981

, Zajnet,

Charlie

Charlie

(5) <-~

Erg0

, MagnaofIllusion,

Sotty7

, farside22,

Sando

MagnaofIllusion (4) <-~ Jack,

JasonT1981

, Zajnet,

Charlie

Charlie

(4) <-~

Erg0

, MagnaofIllusion, farside22,

Sando

MagnaofIllusion (3) <-~ Jack, Zajnet,

Charlie

Those of unknown alignment on my peak wagon – Jack, Zajnet, farside

Those of unknown alignment on Charlie’s peak wagon - farside

It is possible that the third scum avoided both peak Day 1 wagons. Those players of unknown alignment are Locke and poro.

Final

Charlie

Wagon and other votes –

Charlie

(7) <-~

Erg0

, MagnaofIllusion, farside22,

Sando

,

JasonT1981

,

Sotty7

, Zajnet
MagnaofIllusion (2) <-~

Charlie

, Jack
Jack (1) <-~

vollkan

Zajnet (2) <-~ Porochaz, Locke Lamora

Jason’s Day 2 Wagon as it built

JasonT1981

(1) <-~

Sotty7

JasonT1981

(2) <-~

Sotty7

, MagnaofIllusion

JasonT1981

(3) <-~

Sotty7

, MagnaofIllusion, farside22

JasonT1981

(4) <-~

Sotty7

, MagnaofIllusion, farside22,

vollkan

JasonT1981

(5) <-~

Sotty7

, MagnaofIllusion, farside22,

vollkan

, Jack

JasonT1981

(6) <-~

Sotty7

, MagnaofIllusion, farside22,

vollkan

, Zajnet,

JasonT1981

Those not on Jason at lynch -

Jack (1) <-~

Erg0

vollkan

(1) <-~

Sando

Zajnet (1) <-~ Jack

Not voting (2) <-~ Locke Lamora, Porochaz

Erg0 being revealed on the final Charlie wagon for me clears farside of being scum. It seems highly unlikely that all three scum would be on the wagon for any significant amount of time Day 1. The only unknown play who might make sense as the third scum on Charlie’s final wagon is Zajnet.

Thus Jack, Porochaz and Locke all bear scrutiny based on their position off the wagon at the end of the day.

Budding Counterwagons –

Zajnet (2) <-~ farside22, Jack

Jack (2) <-~

Erg0

,

Sando

vollkan

(2) <-~

Sando

,

JasonT1981

Regarding the potential budding counterwagons to Jason –

The only one without 100% confirmed alignment was on Zajnet, with both farside and Jack on it. I’ve already assessed that farside looks clear based on the final Charlie wagon so Jack would be the only one worth reviewing based on the counterwagon.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Day 3 Analysis –

Part 1 – Erg0’s behavior

Erg0’s vote doesn’t come until the fourth vote-count of the day. The first three vote counts were

Zajnet (1) <-~ Jack

Erg0

(1) <-~

Sotty7

Zajnet (2) <-~ Jack, MagnaofIllusion

Sando

(3) <-~ Porochaz, Locke Lamora,

Sotty7

Porochaz (1) <-~

Sando

Zajnet (2) <-~ Jack, MagnaofIllusion

Sando

(3) <-~ Porochaz, Locke Lamora,

Sotty7

Locke Lamora (1) <-~

Sando

When Erg0 does vote it is for Jack. Things I think are important to draw from this information.

1. Despite being a strong early wagon on a Town player Erg0 refused to jump on the Sando wagon despite indicating suspicion of Sando.
2. Zajnet was a viable counterwagon to Sando over these vote-counts and yet Erg0 also doesn’t vote for him.
3. When Erg0 does vote it is for Jack.

What can be drawn from this? With two remaining scum I feel it is less likely that Erg0 was bussing Jack. It’s not out of the question but seems less likely. Erg0’s behaviour leads me to believe more strongly that either his partner was already on the Sando wagon early (which would be either Porochaz or Locke) or is Zajnet (who he didn’t vote for despite listing him as a Top Tier scum candidate as Locke displayed above).

Part 2 – Final Wagon on Sando

Sando

(5) <-~ Porochaz, Locke Lamora,

Sotty7

, Jack, farside22
Jack (4) <-~

Erg0

, Zajnet,

Sando

, MagnaofIllusion

Zajnet’s position on the final wagon leads me to think that final scum is in the unknowns on Sando’s wagon. For the reasons I’ve stated above I think farside is clear so that leaves Poro, Locke and Jack. Based on the thought process above regarding Jack being a less likely partner Locke or Poro are the best candidates for the last scum.

Lastly Locke and Poro once again were ‘protected’ from having to vote on the Erg0 wagon by Erg0’s self-vote as they were by Jason’s self-vote.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Recent post reaction –

Have I? I dont need it if your away too.

I absolutely loathe this post. Why do you feel you don’t need to contribute just because the Mod might be V/LA?

On the heels of all your ‘can’t get into the game’ posts that rings false.

The only other thing CDB says of note about living players is that he's very non-committal about Magna's L-1 vote on Charlie.

Locke can you clarify what you mean here? I wasn’t the L-1 vote on Charlie. Do you mean vice versa?

@Zajnet re 631

– You are complaining about my scum-hunting and contributions? Really? Ok, guess any port in storm.

Other issues

–

At this stage my VC analysis leads me to Locke, Poro and Zajnet as my likely remaining scum suspects.

My review of each of their ISOs is as follows –

Zajnet

–

ISO 0 – RVS vote for CDB / Ythan / Erg0. You don’t strike me as someone who would think too deeply about that sort of obvmove.

ISO 2-6 is basically you dittoing Farside in the early Day 1 attack on me.

After a couple of “I’ll post later / VLA comments” at 10 you hammer Charlie pre-claim.

Your next post the is really game-relevant at all is your late vote of the CCed Jason, despite the fact that you haven’t mentioned Jason / Zach in anything other than passing.

I am stumped by my semblance of a reread. Nobody really jumps out to me as scum. Sando, Poro, and Jack all exhibit elements of scumminess, but nothing blatantly a scum-tell. I need to reread looking specifically for connections to Jason now, but a preliminary look over MOI's analysis seems to show that Sando is the scummiest because of voting patterns. However, I am not comfortable enough in that to vote for anyone, especially with Sando at L-2.

Lots of fence-sitting and lack of commitment here. Sando, Jack and Poro scummy but not. You specifically mention a Jason re-read that never materializes.

ISO 17 – “I'm going to sound like lurking, wagoning scum, but that's OK.” – pre-emptively attempting to ward of questions about your play. A minor direct scum-tell.

ISO 20 – “I have nothing more to add than that Jack is obvscum.” Interesting how that suddenly changes overnight.

ISO 22 – Yet another vote for scum after nary a mention of them in your ISO.

ISO 23 – WIFOM at its heart. I’d like to hear your response to Locke’s question on that front.

Porochaz –

ISO 0-2 interestingly contain votes – farside (RVS), Zaj (to wagon) and Jack (for the whole role-fishing fiasco).

ISO 3-5 is general responses to his Jack vote. I’m noting not a lot of quoting going on.

ISO 6 – Comments that IKD / vollkan is fine (assuming this is code for a Town read) and Sotty hasn’t made good post to date. Follows up with a Sotty vote at ISO 8.

ISO 9 to 13 is back and forth explaining why Sotty is scummy.

ISO 19 – Begins questioning of farside’s play.

ISO 20 – Votes for Zajnet. This avoids either Charlie’s or my competing wagons. This votes stays there until the end of the day. No mention of Zach / Jason or CDB / Ythan during the day.

ISO 22 – First mention that he can’t get a ‘hook’ into the game..

ISO 24-26 – Spam focused on what a Goon Cop is. More theoretical discussion.

ISO 27 – More defense of his playstyle and inability to ‘get into the game’.

Ok so I read back from page 10 and I said before its about as funny as scraping my eyeballs out with a rusty nail in that,

I would have been voting Charlie by the end of day 1, and I would be voting Jason here.

(I am going to let him answer farsides question though) …
Stop doing it. I've enjoyed vollkans posts so far, beyond him defending me slightly, they have been fairly interesting

would look to hear more from Ythan - he seems quite banterous as well.

Emphasis added - Notice the soft support for voting Jason despite not mentioning the slot once before this point. Also seems to be prodding Ythan to be more active. The day ends shortly after this post with no vote from Poro for the Day.
In ISO 33 we get his read on the Erg0 slot is that the slot has failed to post a lot but Erg0 will. The ISO lists Sando and farside as the only scum reads.

ISO 36 begins a long string of meta arguments regarding his play here differing from scum games. It tapers off at ISO 45

ISO 49 – More apologies for his lack of content and contributions and another vote for farside.

Locke Lamora

–

ISO 0 – RVS vote for Sotty

ISO 1-3 contains significant commentary regarding Zach and Sotty’s early sniping. No direct interactions with Zach, however.

ISO 4 to 10 that strikes me as Pro-Town. I disagree with his assessment after the fact on several issues but he address numerous people (although not the Jason or Erg0 slots) on a variety of issues. Reads as real scum-hunting.

ISO 11 – “Hi Ythan. Who's scum?” Fairly friendly opening considering how CDB lurked.

ISO 12-13 – Back and forth with Sotty regarding Zach, ends with a Zach vote (2nd on the wagon)

ISO 15 – Returns vote to Zajnet (previous suspect). Seems to be willing to work in tandem with Sotty.

Sando I think blatantly damns himself by not mentioning Zach or Jason for the entire game, as far as I can see, despite the fact that Jason was a major topic of discussion yesterday and Zach's scumminess was being shouted by Sotty for all of D1.

Locke a question for you – given you thought Sando was scummy for avoidance of Jason’s slot what do you think of Zajnet and Poro on that account for both Jason and Erg0’s slots?

Also from 18 –

The CDB/Ythan/Erg0 slot is similarly devoid of any useful content. That recent catch-up post by Erg0 is the first time any genuine analysis has come out of that slot. Would like to see a lot more firm opinions on who's scummy in his next post as I feel like a lot of his conclusions are quite ambiguous.

Never follows up on this prompting. On the heels of his Ythan soft greeting this looks suspect.

From this point his ISO spends a lot of time delving into Sando’s scum meta play and Zajnet until the Day ends with Sando’s lynch. He’s understandly absent for the short Day 4.

Conclusion

–

At this point all three of them don’t have stellar interaction records with Jason or Erg0’s slots.

Locke’s ISO reads much more to me as someone actually hunting scum but still lack significant interaction with those slots. The fact that he spent significant time focused on Zajnet as a low performer but more or less ignored CDB / Ythan is troubling. I'd rate him as a distant third in the best lynch department.

Poro and Zajnet’s ISO are more or less devoid of any scum-hunting at all. It’s really a coin-flip for me whether Poro’s weak voting record and general wagon avoidance or Zajnet’s late voting / potential bussing is more vote-worthy. Really both look like worth lynches.

VOTE: Zajnet – This is L-1. I’d like to see a concerted effort for you to actually look at the game and make a solid case for someone.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I certainly have no problem waiting for Farside to actually weigh-in.

At this point Zajnet isn't going to hammer himself if he is the last scum.

Mod - As usual I'll be V/LA until Monday for normal family duties.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Not a lot of time right now.

We are in MYLO with 4 alive.

Discussion - Mass-claim likely to do any good?

No Lynch? Yes or No in your Opinion.

My gut answers are Maybe and Yes if we do not mass-claim.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well given that Boberz is still doing a re-read I think we can continue to discuss the options.

For reasons I will not go into currently I'm for either No Lynching or a Mass-Claim today, but not both.

If we No Lynch I would prefer to save the Mass-Claim for the next day.

If we Mass-Claim today I don't think it is best to No Lynch.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well at this point I think the consensus on the course of action is clear ...

Boberz should have ample time to get caught up now.

VOTE: No Lynch

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh forgot to mention - if I die tonight and the game doesn't end lynch Locke.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yes, mass claim I think is pretty much mandatory for today.

I suggest Popcorn style and I would prefer for Porochaz to go first.

Why did you say this?

I said it for two reasons, both of which will become apparent when the mass-claim is done.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, it has been over 24 hours since my last post –

I’m going to start the claim process. I’d much rather my top scum candidate goes first but I’m getting no support on that from boberz and Locke is V/LA.

I’m an Even Night Hider.

Targets –

N2 – farside22 (now boberz)
N4 – Jack
N6 – boberz again.

Reasons –

farside Night 2 was to confirm another likely Town player. vollkan had ‘confirmed’ Sotty and since I had no reason to doubt his Weak Doc claim I didn’t think hiding behind Sotty was wise (from a information standpoint and from a possible double-kill scenario).

Jack Night 4 – after Sando’s mislynch Day 3 I was certain that Jack was scum. However Sotty’s Day 4 claim that Erg0 was scum threw that read for a loop. My VC analysis didn’t point to them being likely scum together. So I took a chance with him. If I died I hoped it was likely that the extra death would lead Town to the conclusion that Jack needed lynched. I also knew with two scum down it would not cause a Town loss if I did die. It was pretty obvious that Sotty was going to be killed N4 so I wasn’t worried about the 2 for 1 issue.

Boberz Night 6 – This was a gamble. When I posted the “If I die lynch Locke” it was a pure gambit. With 4 alive if I hid behind the wrong player of Locke or Poro town losses with a successful Mafia kill other than me. I couldn’t risk losing in the Night. So I gambited for the following reasons –

1. I thought the statement would dissuade Locke from attempting to kill me. He’s repeatedly had a Town read on Poro so if Poro ended up dead last night I have a 100% confirmed scum.
2. I thought the statement would make killing me appealing from Poro’s standpoint. It sets up WIFOM discussions to be sure but me dying might be enough to allow either Poro to persuade Boberz that Locke is indeed scum or Poro to persuade Locke that farside set him up. If I didn’t have positive confirmation on farside I would be certainly curious why farside (replaced by Boberz) was still alive.

I think the lack of kill last night indicates that Poro took a shot at killing me. I can’t be certain. There are too many variables. One of the reasons I wanted a mass-claim was to see if any other information roles exist for Town.

A set-up of Town RB / Weak Doc / Goon Cop / Even Night Hider makes sense compared to a Mafia of two Goons and the equivalent of a Godfather Day Cop. The Weak Doc and I serve as flawed secondary information roles.

If there are any other Town information roles (Tracker / Watcher / etc) then last Mafian being a Goon (and thus detectible by Charlie’s role) plummets. With another information role I’d expect the Mafia to have some sort of Role-blocker. In that case I can’t be certain any of my hides were successful and my clear on boberz is no longer valid.

VOTE: Porochaz

Unless the rest of you claim a PR of some sort I feel fairly certain that boberz is confirmed Town. I have a bigger scum-read on Poro than Locke. Thus that is where my vote goes.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Forgot to add my general weekend V/LA .

MOD - I'll be V/LA from now until Monday morning for regular weekend duties.

I will have some access Saturday morning and Saturday or Sunday night so I will be able to respond briefly to any qeustions.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh how Ironic. You post everywhere but here before I claimed and instantly are here to comment once I do.

I'll let Locke and boberz decide what they think. I'm fairly certain your not liking my claim has more to do with the fact that I think you are scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Prod noted – work had been a bitch the last two Days and I was so tired last night I figured responding with a fresh mind would be best.

Putting it to you straight, weak doc and goon cop are fairly strong info roles, why would there be a hider as well to give the town yet more info, I am also trying to work out exactly what balanced game you are playing in with 3 info roles, (weak doc, is a lot more powerful than you make out. For example see the Pick Your Poison Games - specifically 2 or 3) and a town roleblocker. Against a Mafia Rolecop/Mafia Goon/Mafia ???.

Feel free to knock yourself out trying to attack my role. I’m not going to try to defend the set-up. It’s not something I can do as I didn’t create it. I will say that Weak Doc is not nearly the strong information role that you attempt to portray it as.

Your response here is why I’m happy with my vote. Your only line of thought involves Set-up speculation. You’ve had countless days to make a case as to why I’m scum. You’ve alluded that you think I am yesterday. But still nothing concrete in the way of accusations. Heck, you didn't even bother to go to the trouble of looking at my ISO to see if my claim matched my play. It's further reason why, despite your similar VC positions and interactions, I think Locke is Town and you are the last scum. He's at least engaged in trying to figure out where he stands. You pretty much have sat on your butt all game. Locke thinks it is a sign of unengaged Town. I think it is a sign of scum who can't bother to fake scum-hunting.

Magna, if you hid behind Farside N2 and hence knew she was town, why did you say this on your D3 analysis?

I would think, in light of my claim, that this would be pretty obvious. Let’s look again at the quote in question.

farside appears in more suspicious places based on my analysis than I would have expected given my read

.

I’ll have to re-ISO her with a fresh set of eyes.

The bolded portion is pretty clear – I was surprised at farside appearing where she did in the VC analysis because I had a read that says she is confirmed Town. I certainly didn’t want to tip my hand that I she was clear in my eyes and her positions in the VC analysis do look scummy.

The italicized portion should also be a pretty big clue – why do you think I never re-ISOed her? Because I didn’t need to with my successful hide. I had to give the impression that I suspected her based on her placement in the analysis but never did.

This is also why after Night 4 my ISO 39 where I lay out my suspicions I skirt around Jack as much as possible despite gunning hard for him the Day before.

In summary

– I’m not going to repeat my whole case that I made on Poro. Read my ISO. His position in the VCs is very suspect. His interactions (or lack thereof) with scum are not positive. He hasn’t scum-hunted the entire game but has instead slid by on explanations that ‘he’s not engaged’.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I like your case in your above post. It completely ignores the fact that invitational was chosen as a balanced game and regardless of how strong an info role weak doc is, its still pretty much one sided. I don't need to view the iso to think your claim was bullshit. Your defence on the hole Locke found is truly terrible. Fact is your pissed off that I havent done much this game, yet I have seen straight through your terrible claim.

Ummm what?

1. I’d really like to know how exactly you know the set-up is one-sided. How exactly do you know the set-up again and thus know it is unbalanced?

2. Rhetoric for the sake of it - ‘claim is bullshit’ and defence is ‘terrible’. If you would like to explain how it is ‘terrible’ feel free. Otherwise go back to not contributing like you have done the entirety of the game. The irony that your sig boast how you are such a prolific poster here on MS but have done zilch is not lost on me.

3. I’m pissed? That’s funny. Anything that makes you feel better about yourself.

@Locke and boberz – Anytime the two of you would like to chime in would be great.

[MagnaofIllusion]

1 and 2 tie into each other, trying to balance 3 investigative roles would be a nightmare. An even night hider, while fits into a "normal" setup (in my view), doesn't fit into the rest of the setup.

Im going to assume that the last mafia is a goon.

(A goon cop by my eyes is still oddly specific) However let me run a game, MoI, I assume you dont have much modding experience but how would you balance this game? Take the exact setup revealed, and add an even night hider and 2 VT's, now how do you make scum balanced?

Emphasis added … just why are you assuming the last Mafian is simply a Goon? From the Mafia side that would make two Goons and a Daycop who serves as a pseudo Godfather. Doesn't seem like a likely distribution based on Mafia teams I have seen.

Your assumption about my experience is rather faulty. I played for two years on another site before joining MS with 4 dedicated games GMed and countless set-ups reviewed. But given I’m guessing you just looked at my join date I can’t expect you to know any better.

I don't think you can. Putting a goon in would be to weak, putting a godfather in would mean if he was cop immune then we would have 2 people the goon cop couldnt investigate, if he was nk immune then A. goon cop would still not make sense and B. be totally pointless as there are no other town killing roles. So how would you do it? Mafia Doctor? Then you have the ol' cop-doc routine except in reverse. And this is why you claim is terrible.

The only thing you can come up with are a Godfather or Doctor? Really? My whole concern with claiming and then no lynching yesterday was predicated on my suspicion that the last Mafia would be either a Roleblocker or Jailkeeper. If not that a Redirector / Busdriver also is something I considered as possible. I’m not going to get into any of the more obscure possibilities given this is a Normal set-up.

But let’s discuss. What we know –

Town – Roleblocker, Goon Cop, Weak Doc, Even Night Hider, VTs
Mafia – Daycop and Goon.

If the last Mafia isn’t a Goon then the having three weak information roles makes for a swingy but balanced game IMO (with the caveot of not knowing what the third Mafia role is, of course). The Cop only actually can detect 1 of the 3 Mafians. The Doc and Hider can detect all of them but dies for his efforts. So you have a very ineffective Cop and two fragile informational / protection roles. As I type this I think either a Jailkeeper or Redirector makes solid sense.

But this is exactly what you want … a focus on anything but scum-hunting.

Love how your telling me not to contribute because Im upsetting your easy lynch. Fact is I havent contributed much, Ive given excuses etc. Im not going to apologise for it again. I am a profilic poster on site, I have been sucky recently in a large amount of my games. Don't feel victimised.

Really .. this is classic. You’ve slid by this entire game not contributing any analysis or anything closely resembling scum-hunting. The closest you came to actually accusing someone was your feeling that farside ‘wasn’t right’. Reading back you had the same tone of indignation with her that you have now. It is as if you feel it isn’t fair that you are being attacked for your poor play and are lashing out with rhetoric and assertions you aren’t willing to back.

I’ll wait for Locke and boberz to weigh in. Continue to howl and rage as you wish.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't care what you did or who you voted for in the past 27 pages, to go back through and look through your post history would take up a load of my time, would be largely ignored and in the end would dilute my main point.

I am looking at cold hard facts here and no matter how you put it, it still looks wrong and Im hoping the others agree with me.

Emphasis added: In summary – I know actually looking at the game is not going to provide ammunition so I’m going to keep harping on Set-up speculation.

The bolded portion I find telling and somewhat funny – attempting to present your opinion as ‘cold hard facts’.

In regards to the rest of your post, Ive said all I want. I did "just look at your join date" and I had a quick look to see if there were any modded games here on ms (as other sites 99 times out of a hundred mean absolutely nothing. Your inexperience in normal games is showing though, as you will see:

Interesting that you are bringing up the MD discussion started by mith to bolster your attack.

First post of this /invitiational? July 29th
Date of the post you referenced? August 15th

You can feel free to digress into whether Incognito would be aware of the impending clarification by mith and whether his set-up, made at least 2 weeks before the clarification, would pass muster as a Normal set-up.

But please don’t try to Appeal to Authority using post-dated evidence. Scummy.

Jailkeeper is stupidly strong for scum to have. Redirector and Bus Driver shouldnt be involved and we have has no evidence of that to the contrary. Town Roleblocker becomes a problem when considering both scum roleblocker and scum jailkeeper, who resolves first and how does that effect balance? Also whats the point in having a goon cop when he can only detect one person? 6 townie's, 3 PR's and 3 Mafia, half the town being vanilla sounds good.

1. Care to explain how a JK is ‘stupidly strong’? It is weaker than a regular Roleblocker because the Mafia can’t block and kill the same target. In the case of a Confirmed PR the lack of ability to both block and kill in the same night limits the Mafia's strategic choices.
2. Stating that any sort of Roleblocker is problematic while asserting that I don’t know what I’m talking about is funny. Natural Action Resolution is just one example of how you handle a potential conflict. And it is only really a conflict if they block each other and the scum is indeed a JK. Otherwise Roleblockers going head-to-head simply cancel each other out.
3. I love how ask ‘What’s the point’ of a specific role in a set-up. Set-ups are often crafted to punish lazy assumptions, which you are attempting to advance.

Considering Ive been after farside most of the game I wouldnt say its as clear cut as that, every single person is still under suspicion, as it should be from everyones p.o.v. I wouldn't be voting straight away after the kill. I think scums nk could potentially be very telling.

Your right, I think I need to take a closer look at both of you before I decide, properly.

These two consecutive posts by Poro illustrate why I think he’s scum. These posts are 20 minutes apart. If Poro was Town you would think he would be actually putting some thought into his stances on the game. Yet it takes Locke directly telling him why it’s a 50/50 for him if he is Town for the realization to occur. Reads clearly as scum who is not able to distance himself from his inside knowledge.

My vote is going to stand until Deadline. I believe Poro is the last scum.

Magna: I'm guessing you didn't, but did you attempt to leave any stronger indicator that you'd hid behind Farside/Jack, confirming them as innocent? Given your D3 comment about Farside in particular, had you been killed N3, it wouldn't exactly have been the most obvious breadcrumb that you'd hid behind Farside.

No, I didn’t stronger breadcrumbs. My fears about a potential scum RB or JK made me hesitant to leave them. A hider is a very weak information role and as such didn’t warrant outing myself as strong role (Cop) might.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Can someone explain a goon cop to me please. What result will it get on a scum pr, what on town, what on a goon please! It isnt on the wiki before someone tells me to look there.

The only person who can answer with 100% positivity is Incognito. I think it is somewhat of a custom role.

Preparing the bullshit button. Ive stated Ill have a deeper look into the game. However I think this point stands on its own. Its not speculation, saying "I think there is a roleblocker in the game" is set up speculation. "Having 3 investigatory roles in a mini game makes it hard to balance when we already have yet another town role on top of that" is fact

But the fact that a game might be ‘hard to balance’ doesn’t mean it can’t be balanced. You are trying to assert the game isn’t balanced when you shouldn’t, as Town, have the full picture. So once again you are speculating on the balance of the game as scum-hunting.

Now I did add a disclosure initially but then I deleted it. Fact is, most of whats there was still normal before. Specifically why I referenced it. Bus Drivers and Redirectors have never been normal. Not August 15th, not July 29th, not July 29th 2005.

So you specifically acknowledge that you knew the post from Mith was made after the game started but chose to not provide that information? What Town motivation do you have to hold back specific information in a way that makes your argument look stronger?

And if what you are saying is true why didn’t you just reference a source that listed all the roles that were considered Normal before mith’s post? Is it because there isn’t one?

And for the record from the wiki in the definition of a Normal Game –

A Normal game does not have to have any other roles other than Mafia and Townies. If it includes other roles, they should mostly be considered standard, such as Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Traitor, Serial Killer.
Other (new or otherwise) roles can be included. However, there should be no more than 1-2 of these, and they should be based around the usual game mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Voting.

Note that it specifically states the other roles (not specifically normal roles) can be included. So your whole argument that the set-up as you see it can't be normal falls apart.

1. Well apart from anything else, find a mini normal game with a scum jailkeeper in it. You can block a power role, you can protect a scumbuddy from a kill, (which by the way, there are no town killing roles so point = null).

2. When has 2 roleblockers ever cancelled each other out? Bullshit button again.

3. But a normal setup limits it, it keeps you in a box of predefined limits which you are outside of right now.

1. What relevance to the set-up here does any other game have? None. And note that protecting a buddy also limits that buddy’s ability to use powers or make the Nightkill. Nice of you to not look at the offset when making your argument.

2. Zang’s Mini 1003 had a Town Jailkeeper (myself) and a scum Roleblocker. The possibility existed that we could use our actions on each other. Yet that game was certified as Normal. And once again Natural Action Resolution was created to provide a reasonable solution to any potential problems. You can throw rhetoric (bullshit) all you want but it doesn’t make your argument correct.

3. The quote above begs to differ.

Should I have waited an hour to post that he was right? I did put some thought into it, but in all honesty, what thought do I need here.

I just need to run scenario's. If you have hidden behind boberz, it makes him confirmed town, that leaves from your p.o.v. Locke/me. Scum kill boberz as confirmed town. If you are scum, then it still leaves boberz as confirmed town, unless you are town and are lying. Im going to go out on a limb here and say you are a better player than that.

I forgot you stated you hid behind boberz.

Emphasis added -

First bolded – You are strawmanning here. The point is that you shouldn’t have needed Locke to point out the natural issue to you if you are Town. You should have considered it on your own. Instead you only 'think' about it once the obviousness of the situation is presented to you in black and white.

Second bolded – You ‘forgot’ that my claim (which you have focused on almost exclusively today) included hiding behind boberz twice? I’m not buying that for a second.

This is bad play. You should be considering all options at the moment, even the possibility that I am not scum. Isn't it just slightly interesting that Locke has all but clammed up now. Yes, he's been busy. However when he does post, he doesn't comment on this.

Strawman again. I’ve considered the other option (Locke as scum). Based on my VC analysis work and reviewing both your ISOs I think you are the scum. Locke’s play today and yesterday hasn’t changed my opinion and neither has your play. So I don’t forsee my vote changing unless some new information arises.

I find it ironic that you are attacking Locke for not providing input.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna: one more thing - is use of your ability compulsory?

Yes, each even night I have to hide. That was the impetus for my request that we either Massclaim or No Lynch Day 6 but not both. If we were to mass-claim I judged the likelihood that I could draw a NK attempt plummeted without lying about the mechanics of my role (claiming Odd Night Hider), which at this point in the game would be incredibly Anti-Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna: did you have any concerns that Boberz would be the NK last night?

I had some concerns. You can’t with only four players left in the game. Given my read on Poro as the last scum over yourself I didn’t think he would go for either of you. He’s been pushing boberz slot as scum based on his gut all game long. I think the only reason he hasn’t made a stronger effort to go after him (post 712 not withstanding) is the fact that I’ve more or less 99.99% cleared that slot. You’ve given him a Town read pretty much all game long. So keeping you around makes sense in LYLO.

That said it was a gamble simply because I can’t be sure that Poro is the last scum. And as a gamble it made me somewhat uneasy.

712 and 714 – I’m not sure what to say about these. 712 is so stupid (he can’t have forgotten that you were originally in the game can he?) it makes my head spin. 714 is basically a wall of AtE. I don’t know Poro well enough to know if he’d take shot at the “Look he’s given up and admitted he sucked he must be frustrated Town” gambit as scum or not.

At this point I’m waiting to see what boberz has to say.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why did you single out CDB?

I had to go back to review the thread at the point I made that statement.

I made that post at 109 on August 5th. At that point both players had 2 posts. Over two months later I can’t say as I have a clear recollection why CDB’s lurking warranted his mentioning twice in the sentance.

Number two is the fact that had our weak Doc protected scum N1 or N2 and our hider hidden behind scum N2, with two mislynches and two successful kills, scum win on N2. I'm aware that it's unlikely, but it's possible. I was always under the impression that it was bad for game balance to allow a game of this size to be over before D3.

I agree that a Mini Game shouldn’t end before Day 3. That said it takes a specific set of circumstances to end the game N2. It’s similar to a 8-3-1 Town-Mafia-SK set-up. With a non-NK immune SK two mislynches on Town combined with N1 deaths of Town * 2 and N2 deaths of Town and the Serial Killer ends that game N2 at 3-3. Not impossible but unlikely. In the end you’ll have to ask Incog about the set-up after the game ends to get his thoughts about why he crafted the set-up he did.

But why claim hider if it is a crapclaim.

This is basically a WIFOM argument but I will echo– what possible motive would I have to craft a fake-claim that essentially puts me under scrutiny. I wasn’t under pressure at all going into N6.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Erm, Im not sure but has deadline passed, you better decide quickly.

Actually, based on Incognito’s last post at 709 the countdown clock is shown here

Day 7 Deadline.

So boberz has approximately 21 more hours to actually make a vote.

(all file in behind the confirmed townie.)

Umm Locke and I are already voting for Poro so we’re ‘in file’ if you do actually want to vote for Poro.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Is this the part where I come in and make a big AtE display yelling that Town loses if you mislynch me?

I'm not sure how that sort of thing works.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Thank god this is finally over ... 7 Days is way too long for a 12 person game.

I'll collect my thoughts in a bit but let me also QFT Charlie's last post.

I have no objections to the Scum QT being made public if Jason or Ergo don't object (unless Incog does it himself).

[MagnaofIllusion]

Thank you Incognito for running the game. You did a good job with all the Mod mechanical issues and especially with handling the replacements so well.

Overall I think, despite this being an /invitiational, that the level of play was pretty sub-par. Both sides had seriously under-performing slots.

Thoughts on my play

–

I think I played a fairly average game. My Day 1 early play absolutely sucked. That stupid comment about Zajnet not RVSing on Page 1 was just careless and I was right to get run up for it.

I planned pretty much from the get-go to bus Zach / Jason hard based on the whole Sotty – Zach relationship factor. She was going to catch him and when vollkan protected her N1 and we lost the kill I pretty much knew it was a requirement to win the game. My thanks to Jason for taking it in stride.

The Hider claim was a WIFOM-filled gambit I would never had made had my endurance in this game not run out. From my perspective the game was exhausting. I wanted the game to end Day 6 and the gambit was made purely to end it right then and there.

In hindsight the smart move would have been to kill on Night 6 and just play as a Vanilla Town. I doubt it would have been as close.

Thoughts on my teammates –

I NEVER want to see either CDB or Ythan as a scum partner again. Worst scum-play ever. Should I mention they both failed to submit a Dayscan action Day 1 or Day 2? The only scan we actually got was on Sando, the day he was lynched.

I appreciate Zach’s replacing (I’m assuming it was to try to save the slot), Jason’s handling of the bussing and Erg0’s play until he got fingered by Sotty.

Erg0 – I simply wish you had used your Daycop on Sotty before self-hammering and just posted the results in thread so I was 100% sure she was a RB.

Thoughts on Town –

Once again Jack’s fake-claim ended up biting Town in the butt. I think it cost him any credibility in attacking me and after I escaped Day 1 gave me additional cushion that I needed.

Poro – you were dead on in your set-up analysis. If you had not been so lacklustre to that point it probably would have been easier to convince the rest of Town I was scum.

Vollkan – I have a question if you read this – was your Town read on me accurate or just blowing smoke? Would you have protected me N2? I had suggested not killing you N2 in hopes that you would protect me and die and then spinning the double kills as either Erg0 or I being a one-shot vig who killed the other death that night (which would have been Jack had I gotten my way). Of course flavor could well have done us in but I thought it might have been a good gamble.

Sotty – Do you remember your N1-2-3 RB targets?

General Thoughts –

From a scum perspective I think the game was weighted towards Town from a set-up perspective.

Town had essentially a Sane Cop, a Roleblocker and a Weak Doc (who could effectively detect via protection the Mafian the Cop could not).

Scum had 2 Goons and effectively a Partial Godfather who could Dayscan.

Overall I enjoyed the game. The two misses on kills certainly helped to drag it out farther than it should have gone.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Thanks Sotty, think of it payback for the Newbie game where you fooled me

Link to Dead QT please? I really want people were saying there.

[MagnaofIllusion]

http://www.quicktopic.com/44/H/TtmvVRhZNxj

Now we're even. Next game, lets team up and take over the world.

If we ever end up in a game together as individuals and are on the same side for once I heartily endorse this plan!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Jason your play in that doomed slot Day 2 was great in my eyes.

1. You drew vollkan's Weak Doc claim which could have been HUGE trouble long term if he was able to clear multiple Town.
2. Your quickhammer (and Erg0's subsequent self-hammer Day 4) both made it possible for me to put both Poro and Locke in the questionable portion of my VC analysis.

Good work there!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Day and Night Actions

Night 2

vollkan protected MagnaofIllusion

Sotty7 roleblocked Locke Lamora
Erg0 killed vollkan

Bolded vollkan's action for emphasis -

God damn it we should have gone for it!!!! I wish I had pushed Erg0 harder in the QT about that. I guess Hindsight being 20/20 and all.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Incognito - The big issue I have with the Daytime Role-cop being a powerful offset relies on the fact that he's also our defacto Godfather. It makes the Mafia suffer from very swingy results if they should lose that role early. And yeah, not using it Day 1 and Day 2 really hurt us anyway.