Open 236 - Pamplona Mafia (C9++) Game Over

[The Fonz]

@Fonz: In other games I've seen you try to get the town to agree to certain things when the game starts. Why didn't you do that here?

Other game

s

? Really? I tried to get folks to agree not to do antitown stuff in one game I can recall. It didn't work out that well.

[yabbaguy]

Flagging this for myself, I'll have more later.

[Alduskkel]

Back from vacation. Need to catch up a fair bit. Just reached the stupid stuff over my random vote. Point is, I closed my eyes and pointed. Then I eenie meenie miney moed, changing my finger position each time.

[Prox]

Back from vacation. Need to catch up a fair bit. Just reached the stupid stuff over my random vote. Point is, I closed my eyes and pointed. Then I eenie meenie miney moed, changing my finger position each time.

I can't deny this, but I don't believe you. It seems like you backtracked to cover your contradiction. You can't change my mind about this.

[Alduskkel]

Oh hey.

Incidentally, @Prox: Al has already answered that question. He states that he closed his eyes, pointed at the player list, and went 'eeny meenie miney mo' which to me seems eminently plausible and not evidence that he lied at all.

Nailed it on the head.

Its relatively hard to do eeny-meeny-miney-mo with your eyes closed for starters.

No it isn't. You randomly move your finger each time you say a word, but not too far because then it'll drift off the player list.

Oh. I misread a post. Al is in the clear (sort of), but Ythan is also right in suspecting him (sort of).

Still, Ythan seems more likely town than Al, but only because of his content.

And that means what? Ythan is more active than me. I won't deny that, I've been gone for a week. On the other hand, you seem to think that this is an either/or thing. We could both be Town. We could both be Scum. Just because you think that Ythan is more likely to be Town than me doesn't mean I'm scum.

Well that's it for now. More tomorrow probably. Right now I'm tired since I had two plane trips today, among other things.

[Prox]

Still don't believe that's what happened.

[Alduskkel]

Why would I lie about a random vote?

[Prox]

I have my thoughts.

[Ythan]

Are you asking why you'd lie about a random vote as if it's preposterous for a player to do that? If not then word your question better.

[Beefster]

*facepalm*

Let's not waste time on this crap again.

FoS: Prox

[Prox]

Ok. It's time now for restatements.

All of the following has been said before:

Spoiler: Restatements so People Will Read and Answer. Specifically: Netlava, Shotty, Beefster

PREVIEW EDIT: Oh my. This hasn't happened before. But don't worry, my playstyle isn't anti-town in any obvious functions. Except:

I do not role claim at L-1 unless sure of a hammer

. Remember that for later. And, like I said, my first-post is more for me than for you, though in this way indirectly for you.

vote shotty

: you get my first vote because you might be town, but right now you suck and look...disingenuous. But I read you as a lazy town who doesn't want to go through the effort of trying. Fix this.

@Netlava:

No, I don't disagree.

Why not?

Blatantly anti-town? That seems like a mischaracterization. I was about to answer the question, but then decided to see if there were any objections first.

That doesn't mean you should support it the proposal. I call this bull.

@drmyshottizsik

What made you think that it was a playstyle issue?

Has shotty answered this yet? If he has, I might.

EDIT: Shotty should answer this question.

***

@Beefster:

I'm not complaining. I'm just saying where I've been. I wanted to post earlier but couldn't.

This makes you seem unnecessarily apprehensive.

I thought I posted pretty recently. Maybe I just didn't feel I had anything to add. Anyway, I've been wanting to say this for a while but forgot.

I'm not liking how Ythan is refusing to (basically) defend himself calling it spoonfeeding. Recapping is NOT spoonfeeding. I'd say spoonfeeding is more like building someone else's case for them. You're obviously hiding something.

Could you elaborate what Ythan is obviously hiding by not recapping?

@Ythan: When Alduskkel was pressing you for answers, you refused to answer him by calling it spoonfeeding. In reality you never actually answered the questions. I think it was YOU who was too lazy to read the thread and quote yourself for answers. Therefore you are hiding something.

Furthermore, I reread and did an ISO, and I'm not at all liking how overly defensive he was about Alduskkel's RANDOM vote.

My vote stands.

This post doesn't make sense. So you do think Ythan was just dodging the question or that he was too lazy to go back and find them or too... Ythanic (pronounced EE-Than-ic; term soon to be patented)... to realize that he never answered the question?

2) Overly defensive is a scum argument. Also, to my mind, he wasn't defensive, he was attacking- trying to place pressure on a minor point to get the game going. This to my mind is slightly townish, as it reads as trying to create an argument to get the game going. I've also attacked players in the past for seemingly being unable to keep their story straight about their reasons for their random votes.

He was attacking a totally non-threatening random vote. It got the activity going, but that's not necessarily pro-town.

I'll restate this in this now-serious post:

Weird, yes. But scummy? What was scum-Ythan thinking by both catalyzing discussion and bringing attention to himself? Since when is getting activity going a bad thing?

Clarify: You haven't explained sufficiently the reason that Ythan's attack on a nonthreatening random vote is scummy.

***

@Shotty:

And ythan, I like meta reading people

Since when??

Yes, either he is scum or his playstyle is anti town. I would like to meta read him. NETLAVA SEND ME A LINK OF YOU PLAYING TOWN AND MAFIA PLEASE

His whole play-style? Clarify.

Also, what were you hoping to find in Netlava's recent games? I think I know, but I don't want to assume.

Ythan, are you scum?

Why did you ask this? The tone and setting seems serious.

I don't know, maybe he is your partner and you didn't want him to fall through the cracks too early, but when you realized he was just a dumb ass you backed off

I got an entirely different read from that altercation you speak of.

Also: this view seems to suggest that you believe beef is scummy. But then you call him a VI (again, harsh). What is it?

Ok gere goes my thoughts on what has happened lately.
Dry is lurking and being unuseful.
My opinion on beef is that he is dumb and VI'ish
I think the vote count has it right, Ythan and Net are pretty scummy
I think no one should be lynched untill we hear more from Dry Ald and Ekim

This sounds like Good & Honest, not playing the game but still a part of it. You aren't G&H: PLAY THE GAME.

Also my views havent changed to much

So I'm going to have to assume that reading netlava's meta didn't change your opinion of him? Tell us what you found.

***

@Ythan:

Al, provide a reason for your vote on me.

Why did you ask for this?

Why didn't you believe Al's answer?

Before anyone answers, does anyone disagree with asking everyone what their policy is on shooting N0 as a vig?

Why did you ask this question?

Insistent on not accompanying his vote with any kind of random vote stage flavor, yet then felt it necessary to question me regarding my brief entry post, despite the fact that some players had not even posted and in fact still have not. Inquisitive but not about anything useful;...

You're being inquisitive about his random vote due to the fact that it has no flavor. That is useful? How?

Dr, you're scum. Your hop onto Net is disingenuous and your demand that he provide meta to dispute it as well. Beef, how can you suspect just me OR Net if the basis of your suspicion is that we're both scum?

If Dr is scum, why don't you vote for him?

You sure are dodgy about the simplest possible question in the game.

Why do you insist that Al make up a reason for his random vote? What is going through your head?

Knowing how players in this game would act as a vigilante, a role whose actions are immediately apparent if successful, would aid in my speculation. I was trying to narrow it down but in this complicated setup that really won't be fruitful for some time.

THERE IT IS! THE REASON YTHAN ROLEFISHED. HE ACTUALLY DID ANSWER THE QUESTION!

How is it protown to publicly narrow down the possibilities of who the vigilante(s) might be?

Also, wouldn't it have been easier to just go ahead and quote the post you knew you already made or at least restate what you had already said rather "I've already said this"?
It would seem to me like you were trying to bog down the game by being so stubborn if it weren't for the fact that you do the same thing as scum and town.

Ythan, please answer the question on everyone's lips, which is to explain why you suggested asking everyone if they liked vigging N0 in the first place. What were you trying to achieve?

I have answered this. I was speculating on my own about the nature of the setup. It was unwise for me to ask that question but it did not occur to me at the time.

What would you said if I called this backtracking?

And what makes you think that they're disingenuous?

This is a dumb question. You are either being intentionally obtuse or you are just obtuse. I don't trust your inquiry because I don't trust your inquiry. It's how it reads to me. I will not attempt to further break this down.

That's not good enough. If it's just gut, you have to say what in the post triggerred the gut. People don't get bad vibes from someone without ANY sort of provocation. You should be able to express yourself better than that.

Don't you understand why people sometimes ask you a question more than once?

I have

directly

referred back to such instances on at least one occasion. I'm not going to keep spoonfeeding you because you can't bother read through the five page thread.

No, you haven't. Sorry. You haven't once quoted yourself in one of your posts. The closest thing to this happening was when Fonz asked you about your reason for rolefishing and you backtracked.

I was uncertain, which is why I asked. I had a hunch it might not be ideal so instead of coming out and asking I did that.

This reminds me of Netlava not putting much thought into his posts.

blah blah

Semi-open setup means that I don't know what the setup is but I can figure it out, to an extent. I want to know as much as possible. I was speculating in the literal sense. In my head. There is no why. It's what I was doing.

The Fonz has a solid point there, Ythan. What were you hoping to accomplish with your question?

Nice contribution.

But you didn't speculate about how rolefishing would make the town's vigilante(s) more obvious?
And you could go ahead and answer the question by attacking Zajnet at the same time.

Al, then dr.

Could you list why?

***

Ythan seems strange but right now I have to clear out some discrepancies before voting him.

And Netlava/Beef are #2

Spoiler: Just for Zajnet

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the active lurking topic because I don't consider fencesitting and being V/LA to be active lurking. The beginning of games is always hard for me analytically, so I fencesit a lot, but I do provide opinions and content.

You promised a wall post.

[Beefster]

I'm not complaining. I'm just saying where I've been. I wanted to post earlier but couldn't.

This makes you seem unnecessarily apprehensive.

Don't take things out of context. I was responding to another post which accused me of complaining. I felt it necessary to correct that, despite it being completely irrelevant. It was all part of an irrelevant convo.

I thought I posted pretty recently. Maybe I just didn't feel I had anything to add. Anyway, I've been wanting to say this for a while but forgot.

I'm not liking how Ythan is refusing to (basically) defend himself calling it spoonfeeding. Recapping is NOT spoonfeeding. I'd say spoonfeeding is more like building someone else's case for them. You're obviously hiding something.

Could you elaborate what Ythan is obviously hiding by not recapping?

Not exactly. I can't really tell what exactly he's hiding. If I knew, he wouldn't really wouldn't hiding anything, right?
He's hiding something along the lines of evidence or reasoning. He expects us to read his mind while reading his posts.

@Ythan: When Alduskkel was pressing you for answers, you refused to answer him by calling it spoonfeeding. In reality you never actually answered the questions. I think it was YOU who was too lazy to read the thread and quote yourself for answers. Therefore you are hiding something.

Furthermore, I reread and did an ISO, and I'm not at all liking how overly defensive he was about Alduskkel's RANDOM vote.

My vote stands.

This post doesn't make sense. So you do think Ythan was just dodging the question or that he was too lazy to go back and find them or too... Ythanic (pronounced EE-Than-ic; term soon to be patented)... to realize that he never answered the question?

Yup. You had me correct. Explain why it doesn't make sense, knowing this.

2) Overly defensive is a scum argument. Also, to my mind, he wasn't defensive, he was attacking- trying to place pressure on a minor point to get the game going. This to my mind is slightly townish, as it reads as trying to create an argument to get the game going. I've also attacked players in the past for seemingly being unable to keep their story straight about their reasons for their random votes.

He was attacking a totally non-threatening random vote. It got the activity going, but that's not necessarily pro-town.

I'll restate this in this now-serious post:

Weird, yes. But scummy? What was scum-Ythan thinking by both catalyzing discussion and bringing attention to himself? Since when is getting activity going a bad thing?

It's not bad, but is often done by scum. Getting activity going is a nulltell. Don't use it to defend him.

Clarify: You haven't explained sufficiently the reason that Ythan's attack on a nonthreatening random vote is scummy.

He has more to lose if he's scum. If you deflect votes early, you shouldn't need to deal with them later. Also, in another game, I was scum and heavily attacked a random vote with no reasoning. I feel Ythan is doing the same with similar intentions.

[Prox]

Well, which are you suggesting? 1,2,or3?

[ekiM]

Deadline is a week away, by the way.

My playstyle isn't anti-town in any obvious functions. Except:

I do not role claim at L-1 unless sure of a hammer

.

How is that anti-town? Seems like SOP to me...

However, Ythan and his immediate suspicion of Al's random vote still confuses me. It could suggest several things.

Such as?

Why leave this statement hanging, seriously. You're implying it's potentially scummy without saying so. Why?

The point is that I see you as town, but some questions still remain. These need not be asked atm.

And again. What questions remain?

1) You kinda contradicted yourself there, saying it was Ythan who was too lazy to go back and quote himself. That implies that the answers were there, and therefore Ythan was in the right.

^Misinterpretation. It happens. I can't read minds either.

The thought process I went through was this:

-He claims he answered the questions, which I'm not seeing.
-If he thought he answered the questions, why didn't he go back and quote what he thought to be the answer?
-He covers it up by labeling it as spoonfeeding to quote the answer he claims to have.
-I see this as hiding something because he refused to answer a question clearly.

Can you give an example of what he might be hiding?

Reasons, true intentions. Specifically, the real reason he asked the Vig question.

For example

? Getting really bored of people answering things in an unhelpful way.

[Ythan attacked] a totally non-threatening random vote. It got the activity going, but that's not necessarily pro-town.

How can getting activity going be anti-town?

I never said anti-town. Scum may want to provoke activity more along the lines of flinging accusations or causing accusations to be flung. Not all icebreakers are pro-town.

Or perhaps being a village idiot as town thus making the rest of the town fling accusations at you. That gets the activity going, doesn't it? And I would call it anti-town. (This case is not applicable. It's just to prove a point.)

OK, point taken that being a village idiot wouldn't be helpful. I don't understand how "provoking activity by flinging accusations" is a bad thing, even if they're fairly weak sauce. That's exactly what people should be doing at the start of the game. I also don't understand what scum motive you're imputing here.

Back from vacation. Need to catch up a fair bit. Just reached the stupid stuff over my random vote. Point is, I closed my eyes and pointed. Then I eenie meenie miney moed, changing my finger position each time.

I can't deny this, but I don't believe you. It seems like you backtracked to cover your contradiction. You can't change my mind about this.

If you think he's straight-up lying you should think he's scum, as town have no reason to lie. So why aren't you voting him?

Why would I lie about a random vote?

I have my thoughts.

Seriously, this is absurd. If you have an explanation of how something is scummy, why not give it?

Are you asking why you'd lie about a random vote as if it's preposterous for a player to do that? If not then word your question better.

HEY, you know what you could've done in the SAME AMOUNT OF TIME it took you to write this? Give an example of why someone might lie about a random vote, if you can think of one. That'd be 10* more useful.

[ekiM]

[Fonz]'s case on Beefster seems very contrived.

How so specifically?

Not knowing what active lurking means isn't a scum tell, but I think some of the other things Fonz has been saying could be.

The fact that he bothered to differentiate between the 2 is what bothers me.

Why does that bother you?

@drmyshottyizsik: Just curious, did you "meta" me btw?

yep

Which games did you read? What conclusions did you draw?

Answers on a postcard.

[Prox]

I think talking about those things would constitute as rolefishing, and help the mafia. Do you disagree?

Because, really, can't you guess why scum might "randomly" vote a player on the Day after N0?

The case on Al isn't currently strong enough to get him lynched today. And there's more than one scum. I'd rather have a known scum alive N1 than an unknown one; this game has a vig in it.

[ekiM]

I think talking about those things would constitute as rolefishing, and help the mafia. Do you disagree?

I asked...

How is not claiming until someone threatens a hammer anti-town?
What things could Ythan's suspicion of Al suggest?
What questions "remain but don't need to be asked yet".
Why aren't you voting someone you believe to be scum?
What are your thoughts about Ald possibly lying about his RV?

I don't see how those are rolefishing.

Because, really, can't you guess why scum might "randomly" vote a player on the Day after N0?

What I

think

you're insinuating is that Alduskkel might be the mafia spy cryptically communicating his result and epically slipping when Ythan brought unbearable pressure by asking him why he was voting for him. Seems fairly implausible. If he really did have something to hide he'd be more careful, no? Also his vote for Ythan looks like a pretty crappy cipher if it is one (how's it indicating the exact result?).

Why insinuate this rather than saying it (if I'm right about what the hell it is you're trying to say..)? How does saying this tell scum anything at all they wouldn't already know?

The case on Al isn't currently strong enough to get him lynched today. And there's more than one scum. I'd rather have a known scum alive N1 than an unknown one; this game has a vig in it.

So you think Ald is "known scum" but you're not even trying to convince anyone else of this? In fact you're specifically holding back the reasons why you think this (I think..), to the extent that I only just worked them out myself.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Prox

[Nobody Special]

Votecount 1.8

Beefster - 4 - Dry-fit, The Fonz, Prox, Zajnet
Ythan - 3 - Alduskkel, Beefster, yabbaguy
Alduskkel - 1 - Ythan
drmyshottyizsik - 1 - Netlava
Netlava - 1 - drmyshottyizsik
Prox - 1 - ekiM

Not voting: ...

With 11 alive, it is 6 to lynch. Deadline: August 16

V/LA: Netlava, August 9

[Prox]

Sigh.

1. I most likely won't claim at all.
2. It suggests that Ythan knows things. Things we don't. And I believe he's Town.
3. Questions about Ythan's immediate suspicion of Al's vote.
4. Already explained.
5. Al may be sending a signal to his buds. Probably signifying either he's townie or PR.

*

When I inquired to Ythan if I should speculate about this, he declined.

*

I already explained that the case on Al is too weak. There is little I can say more about it, and you find my thoughts implausible already. And I'm not going to advocate the lynch of someone based on one thing, especially something that can't be proven. But it only takes one to vig, and he can make that choice.

And I've already explained why I've held speculations back.

[drmyshottyizsik]

Ok. It's time now for restatements.

All of the following has been said before:

Restatements so People Will Read and Answer. Specifically: Netlava, Shotty, Beefster
@Shotty:

And ythan, I like meta reading people

Since when??

It's a fun hobby I took up at the start of thursday morning murder

Yes, either he is scum or his playstyle is anti town. I would like to meta read him. NETLAVA SEND ME A LINK OF YOU PLAYING TOWN AND MAFIA PLEASE

His whole play-style? Clarify.

Yes I can't get a propper read unless i read town and scum

Also, what were you hoping to find in Netlava's recent games? I think I know, but I don't want to assume.

I just wanted to see if he play a very destinct way when he was town vs. mafia

Ythan, are you scum?

Why did you ask this? The tone and setting seems serious.

The game was moving along slowly so I thought I may as well start an attack on him,,, but that really didnt go anywhere

I don't know, maybe he is your partner and you didn't want him to fall through the cracks too early, but when you realized he was just a dumb ass you backed off

I got an entirely different read from that altercation you speak of.

Also: this view seems to suggest that you believe beef is scummy. But then you call him a VI (again, harsh). What is it?

I think, after read some other games he has been in. That beef is just a bad player a lot of the time.

Ok gere goes my thoughts on what has happened lately.
Dry is lurking and being unuseful.
My opinion on beef is that he is dumb and VI'ish
I think the vote count has it right, Ythan and Net are pretty scummy
I think no one should be lynched untill we hear more from Dry Ald and Ekim

This sounds like Good & Honest, not playing the game but still a part of it. You aren't G&H: PLAY THE GAME.

WHAT THE FUCK!?!?! That was really harsh man.

Also my views havent changed to much

So I'm going to have to assume that reading netlava's meta didn't change your opinion of him? Tell us what you found.

No nothing has changed on my views on netlave, since he didnt give me any games I searched him and found that he play like this when he is scum, and some times when he is town.

***

Fixed Spoiler tag breakage issue. ~~NS

[drmyshottyizsik]

But since the rest of the town think beef is scum, and he is secind on my scum list

unvote
Vote:beef

I'll go after lava again tomorow

[Alduskkel]

It's ironic that drmy's calling Beefster a bad player. Pot calling the kettle black, as they say.

Anyway, I think it's obvious how far-fetched Prox's theory that I'm the Mafia Spy indicating Ythan as a power role is. It assumes so many things:

1. There's a Mafia Spy (has about a 7% chance).
2. I'm that Mafia Spy (1/10 chance not counting Socrates or Prox).
3. Assuming all of the above, that I investigated Ythan on N0.

Unlikely? Very. Compare that to my explanation of my random vote. I just find it funny that Prox says that no matter what I say he won't believe me.

2. It suggests that Ythan knows things. Things we don't. And I believe he's Town.

No, it doesn't. If I was the Mafia Spy I could be voting Ythan to indicate that he was Vanilla.

What makes you think that it's the opposite?

[Alduskkel]

Hey drmy, when you meta'd Netlava, did you come out suspecting him more or less than before you had meta'd him?

[drmyshottyizsik]

ehh a bit more but not much

[Alduskkel]

Okay. What specifically made you suspect him a bit more?