Mafia on Holy Orders (Game Over!)
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Socrates Mafia Scum
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I would be fairly surprised to see an Ani scum flip.
I suspect some of the players that haven't posted yet don't know that day 1 has begun, as there was no notification as such. Minor town tell for all of them.Mod: can you notify the players that haven't posted yet that the game has begun?
Friend, do you still support the Furcolow wagon? Why?-
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Oh really? You are riding the policy lynch wagon for reasons of "pressure"? Well, he has gotten his pressure and responded quite clearly. Lets see some conclusions.Friend wrote:@Socrates: Wagon? Sure. Pressure on him will let us know if he's a scum VI or not. Policy lynch, though? Hell no.
Now a question for you: Why do you think Ani is town?
vote: Friend
Townies are more likely to instigate a policy lynch wagon while scumbags are more likely to ride shotgun on them (like you are, not coincidentally). Ani seems to genuinely think that Furc will be a disruption to the town and wants him dead. Regardless of whether his play is optimal or not, his motivations seem genuine to me.-
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Thats exactly what I mean by riding shotgun on the wagon. You aren't going to push the wagon, but yay pressure!Friend wrote:@Socrates: First off, I'm not on the wagon, which you seem to have missed. I don't want him lynched but I'm not fighting actively to diffuse it or anything - it's just an early-day wagon and those are always good. I don't think he has said enough to draw a conclusion, yet, honestly, although I'm leaning towards town. What do you think? Is he town or scum?
I am firmly of the opinion that most people "pressuring for reactions" have no idea what the hell they are looking for. I'd like to see some specifics, why are you leaning town on Furc?
As for furc's alignment, I think everything he has done so far he would probably do regardless of alignment. He's frazzled and getting pushed around by the other players. This wagon is dumb, but not the kind of dumb that says anything about his alignment. Unless you are scum, in which case he is town.
Because I got the impression that you were trying to have your cake and eat it too, attacking Ani and yet you still support the wagon that he started.@Socrates: Why am I more scummy than the other players "riding shotgun" on the Furc PL wagon (who've actually placed votes down)?
@sociopath: Do you plan on actually voting Furcolow any time soon?-
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So he is either scum or an idiot. Why do you pick scum over idiot?Sebguer wrote:Unvote
Vote: Furcolow[/b[
There is no way this guy is not scum. Seriously, just glance over his posts. He's either scum or an idiot. I'm sure he's going to be like "GAH, LOOK AT SEBGUER, TRYING TO LYNCH ME WHEN I AM HELPING TOWN WITH MY STUPID IDEAS AND POINTLESS POSTS INCLUDING POKER ANALOGIES THAT NO ONE BUT ME THINKS ARE INTERESTING. SCUM!"
I rest my case.-
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Could you please attempt to articulate this impression more clearly? An important question to make such an articulation easier: What do you think a scum-VI would do differently?Friend wrote:Socrates: This post feels just like VI-town to me. He's posted things similar to this that gave me that impression earlier.
See my second paragraph of that post.Friend wrote:"Why is this bad? The wagon isn't going to lead to a lynch on page 5. I'm obviously not trying to distance myself from the wagon, and pressure leads to information which leads to finding scum.
I knew you would say this. I am NOT the one that intimated that wagons are productive. In fact, I specifically said that I think such attitudes are bologna, and me demanding content from you is me calling you out on such bullshit.Friend wrote:This is a complete cop-out. You acted like the wagon had reached the point where we could draw conclusions from his reactions, and then you provide none. I find that scummy.
I never once said that Sebguer was scum.
PREVIEW:
The scum quicktopic, of course. (And before anyone says anything, I always assume scum can talk during the pre-game.)Plum wrote:Why would scum be more likely to realize Day 1 began than scum?-
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You are misinterpreting Ani's intentions. He is not voting Furc because he thinks Furc is scum, he is voting Furc because he wants Furc dead no matter what he alignment is. That is the definition of a policy lynch. Are you doing this on purpose?Friend wrote:
The only meta ani had of Furc was his TOWN META. That means that he had only seen Furcolow acting scummy AS TOWN.Plum wrote: Ani never said Furcolow acts scummy as Town; he said that he provides poor reasoning and acts scummy across the board. He never said Furcolow acting scummy = Furcolow Town. The implication made, that Ani had reason to believe that Furcolow was, due to his behavior, Town, is completely illegitimate.-
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In an absolute vacuum, who would you vote? Do you think that could be scum together?Beefster wrote:Holy cow. 5 pages already? I was gone like 20 hours...
Unvote
FoS: Furcolow, Friend
I can see either or both of them being scum. It's just gut right now, but I'll try to get in a little more logic once I unwind from school a bit.
I'm gonna wait for the next votecount before placing a vote though.-
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Socrates Mafia Scum
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In my view of the game, there are two main ways for one to justify that a person is scum.Iecerint wrote:I am sympathetic to Friend being scum, if you're referring to your argument to that effect. Your feelings about Beefster seem pretty nonspecific, though.
No, I don't think his contributions are deliberately subpar. I've never played with Beefster before, though, so I have no reason to assume as much. If you know something about him that you think is relevant for interpreting his behavior, please teach me.
1) Prove that some involuntary aspect of a player's play is indicative of a scum mindset. Basically, show that they wouldn't do what they are doing if they had a town role PM.
2) Prove that their actions are deliberately done with malicious intent.
We have ruled out the latter if we agree that Beefster's poor play is not deliberate, thus we must prove the former. So the simple question is this: What has Beefster done that he would not do if he was town? Even if someone makes the argument that his statements are not a legitimate means of contribution, that is largely irrelevant because Beefster himself MUST think that what he is posting holds weight even IF he is scum or he would not have posted it in the first place.
Comparatively, with Friend's play, I am coming from the latter perspective. I believe his earlier play had hints of dissonance with regards to his stances on Ani and Furcolow. His stance (Thinks Ani is scummy, but still supporting the Furc wagon) was a useful one as scum if both Furc and ani happened to be town, because if the wagon goes through (which was semi-likely, as Furc was rapidly digging his own hole at the time and gaining votes), he is well placed to attack the primary cause of the mislynch, thus a scum Friend would want the wagon to continue, but by only supporting the wagon indirectly and staying off of it himself, if the wagon fails to go through, he would be relatively safe from any fallout from that wagon. The dissonance comes in when his stances didn't make much sense from a town perspective, in my opinion. He thinks pressure on Furc was a good thing and wanted the wagon to continue, but was unwilling to participate in the wagon himself, and not only that, but he thought the primary pusher of the wagon was himself scum. His play doesn't make a lot of sense from town, but does make a lot of sense from scum.
My interactions with Friend have largely been me trying to gauge his honesty in his arguments, and to be honest, my scum read is fading just a little bit, but I still think this is the best place for my vote right now.-
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Saying "so and so is a VI" is an oversimplification of my argument. I don't feel like continuing this discussion much further, so I will just restate this as simply as possible.Iecerint wrote:OK, so, @ Soc, your bit about BS doesn't make much sense to me. I'm going to summarize it as I read it so that I can show me where I am wrong:
There are 2 ways scum can seem scummy:
A) By accident
B) On purpose
You agreed with me when I said BS wasn't intentionally a crap player, so the question is whether he is scummy by accident. But it isn't an accident because he does it (?????).
So...are you basically saying "BS is VI"?
Also, I think we talked past one another on the first part -- I thought you were asking whether I thought BS was a player like Furco who deliberately plays with a scummy style.
I can see where you're coming from in the paragraph about Friend, though.
I don't believe there has been sufficient justification that Beefster wouldn't do what he is doing if he was town, nor do I believe there is any significant scum benefit to his play.
Last time we had this argument you were scum voting for a townie. :/
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I would bet very strong money that the smoke and light stuff comes from our two mystery players.-
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Friend needs moar votes.
In other news, I reread and sebguer might need some rope. The first time through I missed post 102, which, while in a vacuum might not be particularly scummy, in context is shifty as hell.
Take a look at this exchange:
Socrates wrote:
So he is either scum or an idiot. Why do you pick scum over idiot?Sebguer wrote:Unvote
Vote: Furcolow[/b[
There is no way this guy is not scum. Seriously, just glance over his posts. He's either scum or an idiot. I'm sure he's going to be like "GAH, LOOK AT SEBGUER, TRYING TO LYNCH ME WHEN I AM HELPING TOWN WITH MY STUPID IDEAS AND POINTLESS POSTS INCLUDING POKER ANALOGIES THAT NO ONE BUT ME THINKS ARE INTERESTING. SCUM!"
I rest my case.Sebguer wrote:Because lynching either is a plus?
He's scummier than anyone else who has posted.Socrates wrote:Yes. Mislynching, always a plus.
Let me simplify that for you:Sebguer wrote:He's declaring someone's 98% scum from four posts. One of those posts was an RVS of Furc, the second was a "why do I need to justify my RVS?", third was "policy lynches are better for a vig to do", and last was calling out Furc's bullshit.
Furc is scum.
That awesome guy: why is he scum and not just dumb?
Mister shifty: I don't care which he is.
That awesome guy: That's dumb.
Mister shifty: He is definitely scum for these reasons: blah blah blah.
The important observation here is that when I challenged his answer to my question, he didn't back up his answer or try and justify it,he changed his answer. Regardless of the veracity of his arguments (which I happen to think are crap anyway), it is different than the initial one he gave. He's probably scum that wanted to get in on the easy wagon. Scummy.-
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Fate, The Voice of Socrates, Herald to the unwashed masses, has spoken. I seen no need to trouble myself with this issue.Friend wrote:Socrates, what do you think about Fate's bogus "timing" argument?
It's very much in character for Fate, and is an argument I am not unsympathetic towards. You deployed a meta on an unfamiliar character with no further attempt to asses his motivations, giving the impression that you are not really worried that he is scum. Its an easy read for scum to fabricate, but one would normally expect a townie to be more paranoid. Compare to pacman's last post.-
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I might be up for a Wraith power lynch if the Friend wagon dies, since people seem to not care the sebguer is scum.
Protip: when you want to know why people are voting someone, a good resource isWraith wrote:Curious as to why there's a Friend wagon in the first place. What exactly has he done that is scummy?the post where they voted them. Just a thought. Another idea is to read the entire thread, but sheesh, that's too much work.
In other news: Hey Plum! Where'd you go? Post in this game! Its where all the cool kids are at! Don't think I didn't see you post in your Hydra.
It doesn't look like Socio has posted on-site since Friday.
LL is V/LA right?
Who else is lurking? I can't be bothered to check right now.
I might give you active lurking (but that could be a playstyle quirk, I need to check that out.), and he might need a bullet for that, but I think you misunderstand what AtE is in your hypocrisy accusation. Calling something dumb is not AtE. It's an insult, and one can insult someone and still be completely coherent in his arguments. AtE is when you go "My dog has just died! please don't vote me!" The key point being that the argument isn't actually coherent, it just preys on your emotions, and I see nothing of the sort in the post you are talking about. People make the same mistake with Ad-Hom all the time, which is why that word is on my list.Friend wrote:Socrates, thoughts on mothrax? He's been hypocritical, active-lurky, and a whole lot scummier than I feel I have been.
HEY MOTHRAX, GIVE ME A FULL PLAYER RUNDOWN.
You were all like "I don't care what your meta is, Fate, I don't trust you!" Speaking of which, what IS your take on Friend defending Fate via Meta?Pacman wrote:Also, what do you mean at referring to my last post? I don't entirely understand that part.-
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Oh hey, a Vezo wagon day 1. I have yet to see a game that he is in where this hasn't happened.
Hey, Agar! I KNOW you've played with Vezo before. How is this any different from how he normally plays? And I don't want to hear any "I don't care if he does it every time he is town, it's scummy ANYWAY" bullshit.-
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Socrates Mafia Scum
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I think it's hammer time.
Pac, do you still think that your vote is best served on Furcolow?
Link? Cause I flat out don't believe you.Me=Weird wrote:Let's see, in the other game, vezo had longer and more contentful posts, he seemed to know what's going on, he didn't OMGUS, and in general didn't do what he's been doing in this game. He was town.
Oh, you're wagon is "full of scum", is it, vezo? Do you think that's true, or is it just mass OMGUS? And I don't think the mod will care if you're just saying it to get the good stuff. Tomorrow, I'll look into fate and wraith.-
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Lets see,MOD, I would like to request a prod on these players:animorpherv1, Sebguer, AGar
Plum and LL are aparently V/LA
I was going to comment on how weird it is that Wraith has been sitting this long at L-1. I would have figured that one of scumwraith's buddies would have said "fuck it" and hammered him by now, unless he was a scum power role of some sort, but we have a lot of people MIA, so.-
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Really? People are dumb enough to buy that stuff? No scumbag worth their salt says "bah, go scum" until after the mod confirms the lynch. Even IF they believe they've been lynched. Especially since [redacted]. I might not be as confident on this lynch than I was earlier, but that certainly isn't going to be the reason I jump off.Fate wrote:Socrates he just played out the whole "ZOMG I WAS FAKEHAMMERED" gambit, so of course they're gonna lie low and see if people will back off. Wagons can implode VERY quickly from this kind of "tell"
So uhhh
Besides, this is the perfect opportunity for scum to show up and yell "Liar!" and hammer for quick "town points". (So get on it, scum.)
@Wraith: I don't know if you have noticed, but all of the active players are voting you.-
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Why in the world are you trying to get other people to peer pressure you?Furcolow wrote:my read on him is townie
i'm sticking by my read
i am not hammering him, unless 3 people in a row tell me they want me to
You very obviously want to hammer, and you very obviously don't want responsibility for said hammer.
Fate, should we be derailing this wagon?-
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Top three scum:
Sebguer: argues his Furc vote with a healthy swab of uhhh, I forget the word, changing his argument to better fit his desired conclusions, rather than drawing conclusions from his arguments, as previously covered.
Friend: In addition to the dissonance that I went into when I was talking with Iec during day 1, he also antagonized Plum and refused to go along with her request on the grounds that she "Might be scum", with no consideration of whether or not the request was a good one. I don't know if that is actually a scum tell, but I want it to be one.
Furcolow: His actions around the end of the Wraith wagon are just plain weird and at least make coherent sense if he was scum not wanting to take responsibility for hammering a townie but wanting the day to end.
unvote, Vote: pacman-
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Socrates Mafia Scum
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Well, first of all, its the fact that you put the reason forward at all that gets my hackles up. If I wasn't deliberately constraining myself, I would call it atrueexample of the word I misspelled on my list. Discrediting someones arguments by saying they might be scum is flat out irrational.
Second of all, you haven't given any other coherent reasons for you stance than that one. "I feel it's not going to be very helpful." barely counts as a reason because you give no elaboration on why you feel that way, and you are only just now saying that.
The word is actually not entirely appropriate anyway, but it would be pedantic for me to point that out. It gets the point across.-
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WHAT A REBUTTLE. I HAVE NO RESPONSE. I AM VANQUISHED.Friend wrote:Yeah, whatever Soc.
M=W is scummy cause he's pressing for VItown lynches. AKA "easy targets."
Are you remembering to click "Add" to the right of the field where you add the names of the people you are PM'ing? I had a similar problem before I figured out what was happening.Vi wrote:---I found out why the prods weren't going out. I assumed that after clicking "Submit", the PM actually went out instead of going to some kind of auto-preview. Have I mentioned in the last five minutes how much I hate phpBB3?
It's still an unnecessary double-submission to do that. ~ViLast edited by Vi on Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.-
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Every time I see this kind of argument I want to ram my head through my monitor.mothrax wrote:@Plum
That is why. Between the three of you(You, AGar, and Socrates) the call for order sounds like a huge rehearsed attempt to consolidate arounf you. Soc(rates) blatantly said he would follow you vote wise. It is quite possible he trusts you and has confirmed you in some way, but it is also possible that you are scum trying to lead the town by looking ubertown.mothrax wrote:this whole cry for help/unison while on the surface, townish, reads as almost rehearsed, like scum planned it out.-
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Yay for Charts!
That was 2 hours wasted.
Furcolow is town, though.
I would be surprised if all three of the unvotes after the claim (960-981, Iec, CKD, Furc) were all town. Furc is town, so he's out. CKD immediately jumped on the pacman counterwagon (981) and then immediately jumped off (982), which confuzzles me greatly. The jump on the counterwagon fits with a scumbuddy that was bussing, but then he immediately stops.
>.>
mmmm.
Agar is probably town.
Friend was the first person (other than Agar) to kick off the Mothrax revival wagon. Town points for him.
Both CKD and Iec immediately follow him. Those two names again.
I'll look at this some more later.
I came across a post by Mothrax that makes Plum very likely town. I forget the post number, though.-
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They are simply time-lines of what I consider the three major wagons of day 2: Furc, Pacman, and Mothrax.Iecerint wrote:And each chart is a separate player's wagon?
Teach me how you're reading it. I can't get much out of it.
Each post number is a post where someone hopped on or off of one of the wagons, and the colored area represents a player staying on the wagon over time.
Lets take a look at your space on the wagon:
(The images seem to be shrunk to a fixed width, so click on the image for something slightly bigger.)
You hopped on at 888, and hopped off at 974. in the interveneing time, M=W jumped on (the light orange right above Agar) as did Furcolow (The dark Grey).
You jumped back on at post 997 right before Chronopie's hammer.
Does that make it easier to parse the image?
Here is a larger version of all three charts together: http://a.imageshack.us/img688/800/alltogether.jpg
I already shared what I immediately saw in the post where I originally posted the charts. I have some more to say, but first I have to respond to CKD.-
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I don't care that you would have revoted him. The point is that you unvoted in the first place. Your questioning only camecuriouskarmadog wrote:
so much work on graphs, so little work on answering questions.Socrates wrote:X-axes are post numbers, Y-axes is total number of votes. Each color represents a different person.
what your graphs dont show, is my questioning I asked at the end of the day and your late arrival to the wagon...I would have revoted him, but I had signed off for the day and wanted him to answer my questions to be sure. Speaking of counter wagons, where was your vote for most of the day while the moth wagon was gaining steam(hint I know the answer to the question)?
do you think graphs are good ways to catch scum? have you ever used graphs before (as scum)? Given your voting history yesterday do you think you look scummy? Can you please redo the graph with your voting pattern.afteryou left the Mothrax wagon and jumped on and off the Pacman wagon. Pray tell, why did you vote Pacman in post 981? As far as I can tell, it mostly came out of nowhere.
Yes, I was on the pacman wagon. Your point?
I like charts. I have used the charts before, but this was the first time I bothered sharing them (the previous times were trial runs, so to speak.). I don't think my voting history is either scummy or pro-town. Do you remember the context of my voting history yesterday? What do you mean, redo the graph with my voting pattern?-
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Yea, but I don't have to time to go and collect that data.Iecerint wrote:I think there was some mothrax stuff D1, too, so....
Anyway, back to the charts.
I realize that I didn't explain why I declared Furc town. Day 2 started off with wagons immediately appearing on both Mothrax and Furcolow, and if both were scum I would expect at least some of the scum to push some third option other than the two of them (I recognize that scum like to bus, but I don't think the entire scum team would bus in unison.) Furthermore, Mothrax threw his vote down on Furcolow during this initial boost and he left it there for the entire day, never really looking for an excuse to move it (if I remember correctly). Furcolow himself hopped on and off of the Mothrax wagon something like 4 times, showing an inclination to wagon him over other targets.
The pacman wagon is harder to parse. It started growing during a time that the Mothrax wagon was all but dead, so there wouldn't be much reason for scum to push such a wagon over others other than for convenience. The only person to jump on the pacman wagon was Furcolow (which gives me some pause on him.) and CKD's psych-out vote in post 981.
Ehhhh. Why wasn't the Pacman wagon pushed harder as the Mothrax wagon grew? The easiest and most obvious answer is because Pacman himself was scum.
The only common players on the pacman and Moth wagons were Friend and Furcolow.
The most questionable presence on this wagon is Vezo, who joined at it's outset, but as soon as it started to grow, jumped off claiming the wagon had stalled, then jumps back on 55 posts later. ++scum points
I'm getting kinda burned out on this. I'll think some more later.-
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Socrates Mafia Scum
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But I did include myself? I am the light grey, labeled "me".Iecerint wrote:Probably his point is that you left yourself off your graph, which keeps it from being a totes objective view of what happened.
Unvoting investi-PRs to evaluate shit is pretty normative IMO. Not that it's not likely that 1 one of us might be scum, if just via background probabilities.
I doubt CKD is scum (less than background probability). He knew I'd follow him to mothrax cuz I proxy'd, so it'd be a pretty ballsy wagonpush. But ye know.
Ehhhh... I don't know how normative it is to unvote the claimed power role before you have evaluated the claim. Maybe unvoting from L-1 to avoid a hammer, but just that. And besides, the problem I have has more to do with the fact that his first inclination was to vote pacman.
Your second point does speak to me, though.
unvote, while I consider.-
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Socrates Mafia Scum
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Socrates Mafia Scum
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