NY 118 - BBM's Large Normal Mafia (Game!)

[Shanba]

/confirm

[Shanba]

VOTE: UA

OMG HE SELFVOTED OBVSCUM

oh wait he hasn't posted yet. But he will.

[Shanba]

UA customarily starts games by selfvoting (a fact testified by both his title and his signature). Someone always says "OMG you selfvoted you're scum" despite the overwhelming meta evidence that it's completely null. I thought I'd pre-empt the whole thing.

And no, I'm not encouraging him to do it; it's fairly self-evidently wasteful. But I don't mind getting a few laughs out of it

[Shanba]

what?

Unvote vote: danakillsu

[Shanba]

Oh man. The egos are out in force already, I see.

UA: do you think dana's actions were at all scummy? Who do you think looks scummiest right now?

Frank: Are you more certain of the case against dana or the case against UA (bearing in mind your case against UA is based on him protecting dana)?

Jdodge: Have you ever considered hiding your dislike of people? It might help you build the support you need to push through lynches.

[/theory sidetrack] Meta is not a stupid concept. It's perfectly reasonable. Mafia is a game about a group of people trying to achieve mutually contradictory goals. Knowing something about the character and habits of a person is therefore inevitably useful in determining their motivations: if you're asking yourself the question "why are they voting so and so" or "why are they reacting in such a way" (in other words, the sorts of questions you need to ask yourself if you're going to scumhunt) you need some insight into their character to get an accurate answer.

Or to put it another way, if you've lived with someone for twenty years, you can tell when they're lying. When you've played thousands of hands of poker with someone, you get a feel for when they're bluffing. When you've played a substantial number of mafia games with someone, you can read them better. That's meta, in a basic but powerful form.

In the specific instance in question, it's simply bizarre to suggest that I was colluding with UA when a dozen simpler and more plausible explanations exist, most notably that I know a small part of UA's meta. (Note: I know she backed down from this position, I'm just illustrating my theory sidetrack.)
[/end theory sidetrack]

I don't give two hoots about dana's claim to be experienced. That's not the key part of that post, it's a side-issue at best, somewhat scummy but hardly earth shattering. What's scummy is the fact that she essentially claimed to have lied to us for no reason at all (that's what the "it was my plan all along!" meme post was fundamentally about, dana, not about you having some master plan to get us scumslip.) We're left with two options, either she's telling the truth about lying, which makes no sense because there was nothing she could possibly be gaining from such a lie or she was lying about that and in that case it looks like a terrible cover up.

That's a feeling that's reinforced by some of the further dramatic responses dana gave ("Whatever. Wagon me. Don't care. You'll probably realize it's pointless eventually, because I know the people here in general are smart enough to see through your lies.") ((Lies? What? Who are you even trying to accuse of lying about anything?)

dana: in your defences there's at least one cheap shot at porochaz, one at jd, a vote for me and a vote for frank. Do you think all of these people are to a greater or lesser degree, scummy, or was that all just rhetoric?

+1 porochaz' calling out of wraith and +1 whoever called out benmage.

[Shanba]

The more the initial emotional reaction to dana's post is passing, the more I think he might have been trying to piss about in the first post he made. The second and subsequent posts are still scummy (there's a desperation to avoid attention at a pre-emptive level and his reaction to those voting him makes it looks like his first priority is not to find sucm but to avoid being lynched).

[Shanba]

vote: UA

Something's really not right there. Either he and Shanba communicated outside this thread or UA is just doing what Shanba wants him to. Either way, it deserves explanation.

Well it's funny to see the reactions I got from pretending I knew UA was scum. I have played with him before, I believe. At any rate, no one as experienced as me would really pretend that they knew someone was scum in the RVS. And the fact that it's tradition to start with a bandwagon on UA should make my actions even less remarkable. Anyway, I'm glad I make it worth it to you, UA.

unvote

Good to see some discussion starting.

What you say in the second post implies that you're lying in the first (it's not a complicated train of logic; you say one thing then later say that the first thing you said was just you pretending). What I am saying in my first sentence in 156 is that I believe you were actually joking around in the first post I've quoted here.

[Shanba]

Shanba: who's scum?

scummiest player thus far is dana.

[Shanba]

Have you ever played with dana before? Because I tend to wind up thinking he's scum in every damn game I play with him.

When you end up thinking he's scum, what's generally the logic behind it?

[Shanba]

No, I legitimately thought you were scum.

Shanba, I don't know how else to explain it...maybe it's just bias, but every single post he makes I wind up thinking to myself "Hey, I could see this coming from a scum perspective".

So because you're bad at reading him we should ignore anything he does that is scummy?

Hell, maybe we should just declare him town now and zone him as off limits from any lynch attempt, because after all, he always looks scummy, right?

[Shanba]

Please point to where in my argument I insinuated we should just declare him town now and be like LOL OKAY HE'S OFF LIMITS.
Please, show me. Because that's the most overeager, overreaching statement I've seen in a long time.

I simply asked you a question. Dear God what an awful response.

You didn't. But that's the idea that's implied by your questions.

What I understood from your probing was that you believed the pressure on dana was at least partially due to dana's playstyle, to things that he does that makes him look scummy regardless of whether or not he's scum or town. That's why I asked for specifics, because I wanted to know whether there was anything I could disregard as just a function of the way he plays/thinks. But you couldn't give me any.

Which means that your posts probing me were essentially worthless. So he always looks scummy to you. Great. How am I supposed to adjust my play to correct for his meta of 'scummy-looking'? Answer: I can't. I can't say we should give a certain portion of his scumtells a free pass (give him more leeway), I can't say we should learn to read him better (because you've given me no indication of how such a thing could be done.) It's a bad meta because it's a useless meta, yet you clearly wanted me to do something because of it or else why ask me?

Better to stamp that kind of thinking out hard before it's allowed to spread.

[Shanba]

My post was more of a cautionary warning that if you tunnel on him too hard, you're going to wind up ignoring other potential scum.
Not that you were tunneling. But since you haven't played with him before, I think you're town, because it's only natural to attack him given his playstyle.
If you had played with him before and were tunneling on him, I'd probably be looking at you harder since he's an easy mislynch target (just ask anyone who's played with him before).

So, there we go. My first town read. Hot damn.

I don't think I'm tunneling, but warning taken.

[Shanba]

Unvote

Some very strange reactions to the claim. I'm not willing to lynch a claimed cop for what amounts to a semi-decent for day 1 case.

Anyway, this is only a good thing in terms of creating the info we're going to need later in the game. Thus far we've had 1 wagon with a couple of sideshows (furcolow).

xite, do you believe the claim or not? It wasn't entirely clear to me from your post where you mentioned it.

[Shanba]

Porochaz, what are your thoughts on hiphop?

[Shanba]

hiphop, I don't really care that you think day 1 is worthless or any of that jazz. I want any and all reads you have, now.

[Shanba]

also

Vote: hiphop

[Shanba]

I don't think frank is that scummy, tbqh. He doesn't seem the brightest marker in the pencilcase but I don't really "get" what is supposed to be so scummy about him.

Hiphop, there's something I don't get.

No opinion after 8 pages. As far as I care I just want a bw. vote danakillsu

This is my 2nd large normal. Even though I was scum in the last one, day 1 is the same to me. As far as I am concerned the only thing useful day one after day 1 is the bws. Hitting scum day 1 in a large normal is luck, so let's just lynch someone and get it over with.

8. I felt that iso 2 alone deserved my vote, since he hasn't done anything to counter it IMO, but being that everybody who voted him gave that reason, why should I say it again? If a person is scummy and has a bw day 1 in this large of a game, then that lynch is fine with me.

In your first post you quite clearly state you have no opinion (or have I misunderstood?) And yet, you claim later that you were voting hom for the same reason as everybody else. What's more, you've stated that you don't think it really matters who we lynch day 1, yet you claim later in the second post I quoted (here for the audience playing along at home) that you're going to do some isos before voting. So clearly it does matter.

I also don't get prozac's unvote. Yes, he's added a little more since before your vote, but crucially he still hasn't given any reads (except for, again, in the post I quoted where he gives a read on dana and a small amount of (albeit fairly interesting) analysis on xite.) In fact, that post was prompted by wraith attacking him, so it's fair to say that hiphop has only delivered under pressure. So why ease up the pressure?

In summary, I don't like the fact that he thinks day 1 is worthless and wants to wagon anyone (see here), as I think this is antitown; (I initially voted for pressure because I wanted to have something we could use to help read him in later days but the more I dig the more interesting it gets.) Later he seems to retract that and states that he did have a reason and he did have opinions, which I don't get at all. He's only delivered content when under pressure, which is typical of scum wanting to stay under the radar. Oh, and I still don't know who he thinks is scum (possibly xite?)

[Shanba]

Is there a reason everyone is totally ignoring my last post? I demand attention, dammit!

[Shanba]

/drinks the wine

I don't think Wraith is scum (or at the very least I don't think his switch on to Frank is that scummy.) It's not good scum strategy that; i frank were to get lynched tomorrow I'd wager that post would make him odds on favourite to be lynched. Yes I know it's wifom, but in my experiience people never play for the wifom interpretation! Or to put it another way, it's much more likely that he is genuinely town who has changed his mind than that he is scum who has suddenly decided it would be a good idea to attack Frank after all.

The only way I could see him scum is if Frank is also scum, as then his motivations as scum make a hell of a lot more sense (originally trying to avoid frank getting lynched, but when it looks inevitable switches over to attacking him to see if he can regain some lost credibility.) I still haven't made up my mind about Frank himself yet; a lot of the tells seem more about his lack of knowledge (yes that's a euphemism) than anything else, for example when he said the scum probably have an extra kill.

Hiphop is still abdicating responsibility and refusing to commit to who he actually thinks is scum. Here's a hint, hiphop. Even if it is impossible to accurately find scum day 1, but saying that because of that you're not going to scumhunt day 1

makes it impossible to find scum on later days, too.

The distinction he is trying to draw between reads and opinions is meaningless, as a read is just an opinion about who is scum and that he clearly did have. I still can't reconcile his two statements.

BBM, when you prod JD make sure he posts ASAP as he's probably soon going to be using the song contest as an excuse.

[Shanba]

Also, seth has only posted in the confirmation stage, sebguer has been V/LA all game and so has Orochi, and Johnny Rotten still hasn't posted anything. He hasn't even confirmed! We need contributions of some type from every player if we are to be able to scumhunt effectively. Please do something particularly about johnny and seth.

[Shanba]

I think he is scum or a really horrible mafia player

I think whether he's scum or town he'll be disappointed with his play, as in this game it has been terrible. But the whole wagon reads to me like a pretty typical day 1 townie lynch. If he goes I won't complain, but he's not the scummiest player in the imho.

[Shanba]

Bah fucking bah.
Catchup can't happen for a few days now - I'm going home this weekend and will pretty much be busy all day every day.

The longer you take the longer the thread will be and the more you'll have to catch up.

The coaching argument is bunkum, particularly the part where singer is accused of feeding him the claim, as singer's post basically makes the claim worthless to him anyway.

I could restate the myriad ways in which DP's claim was stupid and terrible (and there are multiple reasons that no one else has noted yet) but I'm not going to as I don't think it's really relevant.

Prozac: you really think DP is scum? Honestly?

hiphop is still scum. Confid, did you read my reason for thinking wraith is town?

[Shanba]

step 1: point out the breadcrumb to us
step 2: explain the reasoning behind your claim and then claimchange
step 3: stick your head in a gas oven in the name of improving humanity

seriously. Grrr.

[Shanba]

Vote: Mysterio

On both wagons, some weird reasoning, contributed little of value. Fits my expectations of what scum would be doing to a tee.

[Shanba]

How much attention are you actually paying to the game, flinter?

[Shanba]

EBWOP because I have a short attention span:

It's fair to say singsign wasn't coaching David.... still a bit leery of her, BUT the coaching thing was the only/major reason I suspected her. I'll have to iso her [too, along with Wicked].

That's a shame, because it was never a very good reason in the first place, but whatever. Why are you now leery of her? Just because you need some kind of opinion on something? Notably, SS is the only person you've suspected all game. If you read her iso and decide she's town, then what - you'll have to move on to wicked as your lone suspect? You never gave an opinion on the frank or the dana wagon which frankly is an abdication of responsibility.

Flinter has voted for mysterio as anticipated.

Unvote

I don't think Wraith is scum. I don't agree that the shift on position on Frank is particularly scummy - if you read my posts you'll notice a similar thing happening with my read on dana (though in the opposite direction). More to the point, though, that kind of repositioning requires a degree of bravery, and hence is more likely to come through conviction of belief than desire to jump on a lynchwagon.

The rest of the Wraith case is not overly convincing.

Hiphop still needs to up his contribution. I am in horror of suddenly realising it's day 4 and we still have nothing we can use to determine his alignment. I also think he's still scummy, but

Vote: Porochaz

because I want to explore a different avenue instead.

[Shanba]

Wraith: I like your latest posts (and intend in reading them in more detail later), but the last one has brought to mind a question - why

did

you vote frank in the end? There's something about his "continuing ultra-scummy play" and "nothing ventured nothing gained" and about how you're losing faith in your defence of him, but overall the whole tone of those posts is really confused and even in the one just after you voted him you've almost moved back to defending him again - with the whole "I think it's bad in the long run".

[Shanba]

Strange that Wickedest will vote almost anyone except Wraith.
He's definitely someone to look at as a scumbuddy if Wraith flips scum as expected.

Is it so odd for a player to have a town read? Just because you believe someone is scum doesn't mean they are, and moreover, just because you think someone is obviously scummy doesn't mean it's true.

Xite: Let me put it this way. Scum in that situation has nothing to gain from switching over to frank. Frank is the only viable wagon, and it he's almost certainly going to be lynched regardless of what you do. On the other hand, you have quite a lot to lose - for one, someone is likely to pick up on the reversal in your position and two you lose the kudos that you had been garnering for protecting a townie. It's far better to have Frank lynched without you being on the wagon if possible - and at that point in time it certainly was possible that Frank got lynched without wassisname being on the wagon.

On the other hand, you're a townie and you start protecting someone, but then people keep attacking him and attacking you for defending him. To what extent is paranoia going to take over? You know if you're wrong it's going to get you in a lot of trouble. That's what I feel happened; Wraith gave in to paranoia and selfdoubt caused by the pressure. This is why I asked him the question I did in my last post - he's still confused himself about what happened and that tells me that he was never comitted to the lynch in the first place.

And you haven't made a case against him xite: I even reread your posts just now to check. You make a lot of sarky comments, call him scum a lot, even say "X post has a lot of classic scumtells" quite early on. The only person I really feel has added anything of worth against Wraith is ConfidAnon (who on balance I don't think is scum).

Xite, you also need to work on your reading comprehension. I wasn't saying we were day 4. Please try reading that sentence again.

UA, who are your top suspects? Same question to hiphop when he gets back

[Shanba]

Let me put it this way, scum do not follow a "set of rules" therefore, they could be anywhere on or off that wagon. Hell, they could be on the other side of the earth. There's this thing called WIFOM, and it will point that out clearly. Scum have nothing to lose switching to frank either.

Oh, have I not? Oh, i guess all I've done is throw points at him the whole time huh? Just never put them all together in one post as a "case"
Well if it's better for you I will do a consolidation post when I have time (probably not till tonight or tomorrow)

Haha, I have to work on my reading comp? Funny because the way you wrote it, it could easily have been taken that way. But now reading it again, I understand what you meant.

No, you don't get it. There's no rules, I know that, hell I used to spend half my time in mafia discussion arguing that very point (more accurately, I used to argue against reading by rote - that you use a lit of scumtells and go down them one by one to see if someone has committed them. Did they WIFOM, did they OMGUS, are they lurking, were thye on a townie lynch, etc. etc. The problem is not that these aren't good tells per se - the problem is that they omit context. But I'm getting distracted.) What I am looking at is motivations. Why would Wraithscum decide to start attacking Frank in that scenario? The obvious reason - that he wanted to help lynch a townie - seems to me to be countered by the damage that would do to his reputation. There's definitely something for him to lose by switching there - partly, he's aware that the switch itself will be seen as scummy, but moreover it stops him from using the fact that he defended a townie in his own defence when he was inevitably going to be suspected the next day (that is, today.) Whereas with town, the motivations are much clearer, much less subject to this kind of calculation - the most basic possible one being that he simply changed his mind. I don't think that's true either because of the way he did it, but I do think it looks like he was, in a way, "bullied".

So how does this make his actions there a towntell? Well, something is a scumtell if mafia are more likely to do it than town - or to put it another way, if a player is more likely to perform that action when they're scum than when they're town. Looking at the motivations, I deduce that he's not likely to do that as scum, but is likely to do that as town - hence a towntell.

And you haven't made a case. Let's look at all you've posted wrt to Wraith (to keep this post which is turning into an epically long one short, I'm stripping them of context. You can find the context by searching out each phrase in xite's Iso and then clicking the little white post token at the beginning of each post, which will take you to the relevant place in the thread):

There are so many textbook tells in just that post. Just sayin

followed by a QFT of prozac calling out Wraith as having a "really bad voting fail". I don't mind this - it's the closest Xite comes to delivering anything relevant about Wraith and although it's not strong by itself it's a perfectly legit early day case.

The OMGUS was an obvious RV. Don't piggy back on my case, make your own. I don't remember when 1 happened.

This however is a perfect example of what I mean by snarky comments overshadowing actual points. Presumably this was supposed to be saying that Wraith's post was scummy because he was justifying his vote by lifting stuff from you - which is blatantly false (and besides, you just partially piggybacked on prozac's case yourself). When this becomes a pattern of behaviour it becomes scummy, because of reasons I've already explained vis hiphop - it makes it hard to actually get a read on a player. But I think we can definitely say that that's not true of Wraith who has made a number of points himself and has differentiated himself from the crowd with his position on Frank.

I note you later spell out the textbook tells explicitly. What you don't say is why they're tells. For example, asking for a votecount, making "a comment unrelated to the point I get at at the end of my sentence, then use an obvious Joke vote as what made me positive he's scum." The first part of that sentence is LOLWAT, the second part is iffy but ok. Also note - this is the third time you've used this post to attack him. I'll come to that later.

@Wraith's last post;
1) Your plan to fool the town is not working, at least with me.
2) If dana is at L-2, maybe it's time for a claim?

Again, snarky comments.

I'm gonna stop here because there's just too much material to cover - but see how much of this is smoke and mirrors! It's just so easy to repeat that a guy is scum and then people start to believe you after a while. There's a smattering of legit points, a smattering of iffy points and a lot of "well wraith is obvscum" and repeating the same points over and over again - this is a problem, it's actualy possible to cinvince people simply by repeating the same stuff over and over again (which is why the reuse of that one post multiple times concerns me). Now anyone who doesn't agree is wrong, (or according to dana, scum.) The case is not bad, but it is overblown - and there are so many tiny towntells mixed in with his play as well as the big one I've already noted. Stuff like: "*confusing self with thought*" which is a problem I often get as town - thinking myself in knots - but not so much as scum.

Dana: it's important because that kind of impression doesn't go away. If you lynch Wraith today and he turns up town, I'd bet that you would come back tomorrow with a very similar suspect list and a note saying "well I know Wraith was town but x is still scummy anyway..."

Please note, I don't think Xite is scum. But I do think he is heavily tunnelvisioned.

Also note: I think there are better cases made against Wraith by the likes of ConfidAnon. But I still don't think he is scum. The thing about Wraith that strikes me is he seems to be a very honest player - he says what he thinks and damn the consequences. He also seems like an emotional player - things get him worked up and he's not good at dealing with it in a rational way. The combination of these traits makes him selfvote under pressure, then suddenly change tack and post huge walls of text attacking players and so on. It also explains his relentless defeatism, which frankly is doing him no favours.

@_@ I think he's genuinely not claiming, because then why would he ask us to take his scumhunting seriously? Also it makes no sense with the rest of the post.

So who is scum? Porochaz, for one, though I can't pursue him until a couple of things I need to deal with fall into place. Expect a case later this day. Also getting vibes from Gorrad. Hiphop I'm worried about though I'm not so sure he is scum, but i can't tell if he never goddamn posts anything useful, hence pursuing him avidly as long as possible. It hasn't helped, though, so I'm reduced to just hoping he contributes on his own steam. I'm also getting increasingly worried about UA, who since the danawagon seems to simply be sitting above the fray and sniping rather than helping out.

[Shanba]

Mod: Leaving tomorrow to go to scotland. I guess with packing etc. I'll probably be offline for about 24 hours total.

[Shanba]

Let's get this sorted.

Xite, were you lying about the daykill? If not, why are you still trying to lynch Wraith? If you are, why did you lie?

[Shanba]

Gorrad, have I got this straight? You're saying that proclaiming your pro-townness is scummy? It's really not. A lot of newer players who get frustrated when they have wagons on them will start just screaming that they're town because nothign else seems to be working. In my experience, proclaiming yourself town is a newbtell, not a scumtell.

Building a case on Prozac tomorrow. Also, hi guys, I'm back!

[Shanba]

I'm not going to lie, I'm struggling a little with finding motivation this game. Luckily, I find that picking fights is often a way to get myself more involved, and hence the fact that the next move on my planned itinerary for the day was to go after porochaz is a major boon.

I was hoping to draw some kind of reaction from Prozac before I went after him proper but he seems to have let the whole edit thing distract him from the game and the only response I got was a flippant remark anyway, but never mind.

Prozac's response to bunnylover struck me as odd, because bunnylover was hardly the only player in the game to have been doing the same tells he commented on. I'd already noticed hiphop and wanted to put him under some pressure, and forming a wagon is better at doing that than an isolated vote, so I tried to coerce prozac into voting with me - and sure enough, he obliges. But then he unvotes and votes frank barely much after with the excuse that hiphop had started to contribute. I still don't see hiphop's contribution there as particularly useful - though his most recent piece of contribution has eased my worries about him somewhat - but the weird thing is that he doesnt go back to bunnylover. Presumably he moved over to hiphop only because bunnylover was worse - so what has changed between the vote for bunnylover and the vote for frank? As far as I can tell, nothing - or at least, nothing that prozac ever explains. I know he was already suspicious of Frank, so I'm not too worried about the Frank vote in particular, it's just I can't follow his thought process on the bunnylover - hiphop - Frank series of votes. Has bunnylover started contributing? I don't think so. When I can't follow someone's thought processes, that often means the cases they are making are in bad faith.

Similarly, his reaction to the DP cop claim was off. To me, I fairly strongly believed at that point that DP was a townie fakeclaiming given singer's post. It was that or actually cop. I've seen townies pull that (idiotic) gambit before, where they strongly believe a player is fakeclaiming and counterclaim to get them lynched, and I've also seen power roles counterclaim. But I've almost never seen scum counterclaim a power role on day 1. Prozac's been around the block, he knows that too - so why is he implying in his posts that he thinks DP is scum? Again, I can't really follow his thought processes.

And then he revotes hiphop today. The problem I have with this is that yesterday the implication behind his posts is that the reason he switched from hiphop to frank was not because frank started looking scummier but because hiphop started looking townier. But then he revotes him again today. What's the deal?

So that's why I'm voting Prozac. There was also a section about his lack of contribution today - but actually, he's apparently been on LA practically the whole game day, so I guess that's slightly more excusable.

I have a growing suspicion of Gorrad that's working down the same lines.

[Shanba]

dana: I seem to recall that you are already workign on the assumption that Wraith is scum. Does that mean that you think Xite is bussing?

[Shanba]

Also, are you people all so stuck in your mindsets, so tunneled on your one or two top suspects,t hat you're not even prepared to listen to alternative cases? I remember a similar reaction when I first made my case on hiphop yesterday and evryone totally ignored it until I jumped up and down and demanded response, and now I'm getting the same thing with my prozac case. Even if you disagree, that kind of info is better than ignoring it totally.

[Shanba]

UA and MME probably need to get their vote somewhere more useful. Actually, I still don't really know who UA thinks is scum - he's said it's Jd/his replacement but he hasn't followed that up with a vote.

[Shanba]

Bullshit. I laid down my case.

[Shanba]

Page 49, post 1205, plus a later post where I whine that no one has responded to it. Which reminds me

Wraith: I'm not convinced by your case on Mysterio. There are some points I like, some I don't; mostly, his play is reminiscent (to me) of a player still finding their feet at mafia, particularly as we play it on mafiascum. For example, his vote on Jdodge reminds me of a similar vote I made in my very very first game as town. There's enough there that I wouldn't cry about him being lynched, as I think he's somewhat scummy, but eh. It just doesn't enthuse me much.

[Shanba]

At deadline, my vote preference for the three biggest wagons is as follows: Prozac, Mysterio, Wraith. I will switch to Mysterio to achieve a lynch if Prozac looks like he's getting away - which is incredibly frustrating to me, actually. I know he's had some V/LA but he's practically skipped this entire game day now. Heck, someone (I think it was xite?) said that they needed more posts to discern his alignment which is cool and all, but kinda difficult if he's not going to post anyway.

Anyway, as I was saying, I will switch to Mysterio unless the Prozac wagon starts growing, and if even that lynch looks unlikely then I'll have to bite the bullet and vote Wraith - I will be on near deadline time to be sure that a lynch happens. I'd prefer it not get to that stage, but we'll see.

[Shanba]

for people who are not aware, deadline is this friday - that's 2/3 days time depending on your time zone.

[Shanba]

Vote: Deadline Extension

So Antihero and MME can catch up, as it's going to be tight otherwise. We need a majority for this, so chop chop people!

[Shanba]

Alrighty, well it's time for everyone to be voting for Wraith or Mysterio, no ifs ands or buts. Only thing that could change this is a good old deadline extension, but I don't expect to be given one, considering how much time we've had. Just in case I die tonight, I want to say that Xite is probably scum.

Or you could read the mod's posts and realise that he has said he will give a deadline extension if a majority vote for it.

Porochaz wagon is dwindling and onlye xtra vote I can see getting on it at this point in time is eek. So

Unvote Vote: Mysterio

but I'm none too happy about that. At least mysterio is a little bit scummy, unlike Wraith.

[Shanba]

Mysterio: I've already laid out in detail why I think most of the case on Wraith is crap and also mentioned in passing (I think only a couple) of the reasons why I think that he is town.

Robb: the deadline extension is mostly for the benefit of the couple of players who have just replaced in and have a 58 page thread to read. That's a lot to gnaw through.

On that note: MME I'd like that you read through this day in its entirety, if possible, rather than cherrypicking stuff. There's a lot to it.

[Shanba]

Vote: Porochaz

Even better. Check out Benmage's 15 and 20. Plus my case from yesterday. Wraith is still a poor lynch.

[Shanba]

Actually, no, prozac. Oddly enough I was looking at Benmage's iso last night. Basically he pushed hard against Frank and then posted a whole lot of "will catch up later" posts. But strangely, despite having almost no time to contribute at all, he finds the time to defend you - twice. He posts like one post of substance at all that day, and it's to defend you. 15 is nowhere near as significant as 20, obviously.

[Shanba]

Holy crap did I just get accused of tunneling by the guy who has done nothing else for the last day and a bit but tunnel on wraith?

Let me put this simply. Wraith is a terrible lynch. Frankly I'm simply astonished that you are so convinced by it - I literally cannot understand your viepoint. Like, at all. Frank was not a great lynch either. Both are simply players playing badly. Prozac is a player comitting scumtells. This is a

clear and obvious difference

. And you're a good player, so what in the name of Woden's Beard is going on?

He's a scummy claimed vanilla who has come very close to lynch. And if our mysterious second killer was going to do the honor, he would have last night. The only way Wraith is going to die is by lynch, and if we put it off we're only delaying the inevitable.

And this? Clear bullshit. We should lynch him because scum won't kill him? Seriously? Are you even listening to yourself any more? ARGH this game.

Prozac, particularly in regards to the second of Benmage's iso things that I am referencing - I don't realy care how weak or strong the written case was against you at that point. What I care about is the fact that a scumbag, who up to that point in time had contributed very very little, decided to take the time out of his day to protect you? WHY DID HE CARE ABOUT MY CASE OR LACK OF CASE ON YOU? He had no horse he was pushing instead, it's just gratuitous defence. I mean, as scum, it's so much easier to squash cases on your buddies before they get big and scary. If he's just trying to play the concerned townie, why isn't he posting about any of the other stuff that's going on that day?

On to the case itself: What you have stated with regards to the frank/hiphop/bunnylurker thing is not what you stated at the time. You stated that hiphop had improved. That doesn't mean that Frank has gotten worse no matter how you try and spin it. What did Frank do between those votes that made you switch back from hiphop to Frank and not back form hiphop to bunnylover?

On the DP thing - one, we did not know for a fact that he was lying right then. In fact, the only reason it became likely that he was lying was because singersigner had said that he lies as VT - which implies that the increase in probability that he is lying came from the possibility that he was a lying VT, not a lying scumbag. I literally cannot see a reason why you would just assume that not only is DP lying in that situation, but that, moreover, he's lying scum!

I also don't really see how, from your perspective, you wouldn't have bunnylover overtaking hiphop again. Nor can I see why you did 0 legwork in looking for other lurkers at all, this game.

[Shanba]

Unfortunately, he's hardly the only one to have coasted this game.

Lots of things flooding my mind now. UA, today you need to add something. I don't care if you have gut suspicions that you can't quite crystallise, you need to add something concrete to proceedings. Robbnva, remind me where we have any evidence of a roleblocker at all? End of yesterday replacements (Antihero, MME and the like): please tell me you caught up overnight?

[Shanba]

Unfortunately, he's hardly the only one to have coasted this game.

Lots of things flooding my mind now. UA, today you need to add something. I don't care if you have gut suspicions that you can't quite crystallise, you need to add something concrete to proceedings.

Robbnva, remind me where we have any evidence of a roleblocker at all?

End of yesterday replacements (Antihero, MME and the like): please tell me you caught up overnight?

seriously did you not read who was killed last night? Mafia roleblocker was killed.

this is why I think dana could be scum cop or not a cop at all. I was just in another game on this site where the cop was mafia cop and everyone trusted him.

if I was mafia roleblocker dana would have been blocked, period end of story.
the fact dana got a result is fishy.

:egg on face: My bad.

[Shanba]

I checked the completed large normals. The first one (working backwards) with a roleblocker is mafia 107. 108 through 114 had no mafia roleblockers, and neither did 117. Mafia roleblocker is a lot less common than you guys seem to think.

[Shanba]

UA, today you need to add something. I don't care if you have gut suspicions that you can't quite crystallise, you need to add something concrete to proceedings.

In all honesty, I'd much rather sit back and let everything happen around me, while saying useless quips like. "You're all mostly idiots for putting Dana in the position he's in, and then lynching him for it" or "I don't think Robb knows what Active Lurking is" or even "Wraith is still not scum and Gorrad needs a bop on the nose for denouncing NK speculation".

but that's just me

In all honesty, I don't give a flying dingo's kidney about what you'd rather do. Hrmf.

Tell me, what do you make of Gorrad?

Despite the fact that I sometimes find myself agreeing with xite and sometimes disagreeing with him, the discussions involving him tend to be the worst in the game. Regardless, he's pro-town, so this boring stuff between him and flinter is, well, boring.

[Shanba]

Mod: Very busy weekend. Will be gone completely sat/sun and LA fri.

Xite has been obviously town for a long time, MME.

I'm not wildly excited by a dana lynch. Not sure the risk/reward calculations are right from certain players - I think he's mildly scummy, that there are scummier players, that I don't understand what's going on with the mafia rber (as MME said, if dana is scum, not claiming to be blocked was a mistake, but if he's town, not blocking him was a scum mistake.)

Bunnylover is a better lynch, but I prefer one of Prozac/Gorrad. Bunnylover's hammer yesterday was awful, no idea why he didn't leave time for Mysterio to claim. I've only skimmed recent parts of the thread so don't know if he's offered an explanation.

[Shanba]

Ok, so after a quick check through kise's posts nothing is sticking out as being indicative of an investigation - there's no sudde changes of position, no balls to the wall defending of anyone. I'd guess he'd have claimed if he had a mafia investigation, so we're looking for town ones. THe closest I have is Reckoner and Prozac, and I'm bloody uncertain of that. He picked out reckoner specifically to ask him who he thought was scum and hinted there was a reason - but if he had a town result on Reckoner, why later in the game did he FoS him? He did seem to be thinking about a possible godfather a lot, but still...

He also specifically calls prozac a godfather. I have seen people just pick out a scum role for a player (rather than just broad brush accusing them of being scum) but not very often. It's a possibility that this is code for him having a town result on prozac, or it being the case that he had a town result on prozac yet still found him scummy. Again, it's weak.

I think it's highly unlikely we have a doc, a super backup, and two cops and masons. Plus the not roleblocked thing. It's probably prudent that we get dana's investigation result before lynching on the offchance, but this looks fairly cut and dried to me, now.

I also am pretty convinced gorrad is scum. Like 90%+.

Pre-post edit: A guilty? Hrm. Possibly scum ploy to delay lynch. Normally I'd suggest lynch the guilty result before the cop, it's just there's too much stacking up against dana now.

Vote: danakillsu

[Shanba]

I dunno if you guys come from different metas or whatnot, but the dead we have now - plus the implied masonbuddy - is pretty much the limit for town power roles in a normal game this size. I'd be surprised if we had anything else at all, frankly - especially with the super backup. Two cops, a doc and a backup? That's pushing the limits of credulity. Non-sane cops and a backup in a normal game? Again, that would be incredibly unusual. Even if you don't trust my scumhunting skills, trust that I've played enough games here to have a feel for these things.

Gorrad, no case yet. I'm debating whether to bring one today or tomorrow. I'm worried that if I do it today, it'll get swallowed up in the quicklynch and the impact will be dulled. But I'd like to get it out before I get nightkilled. I dunno.

[Shanba]

Aight, here we go.

The crux of my case is something like: "I think nearly every popular case we've had this game has been crap, and Gorrad has pushed all those popular cases. Gorradtown should be able to distinguish those crap cases from the good cases" but I suppose you're going to want more detail than that.

Firstly, there was the Frank lynch. Frankly (pardon the pun), I never really understood that wagon. There was a lot of bluster and badlogic from Frank, but despite asking I never got anyone to explain to me why. Gorrad is no exception. Check his catch up post if anything, reading through it, you'd expect him to be on Dana or Wraith (I think his points on Wraith are bad, but I'll get to that in a bit. The important point here is that He beings up more points against Wraith and reacts more strongly to the points he's brought up than against). To me, it looks like there was a kind of whispering campaign against Frank that made him an easy target; lots of vague accusations and a player who's not looking like he's strong enough to counter them, and then your late jump on the easiest wagon in the game... eh.

Day 2, though, I really didn't like. Again I didn't understand why you were going after Wraith, and what's more a lot of his posts had a genuineness and a townfeel to it. I've given a few concrete examples in earlier posts but I can go find them again if you like. Given I was pretty convinced he was town, I wanted to understand the case - but I never felt you made one. You piggybacked on a load of other people's suspicions and tried to drive the wagon without giving a reason why (beyond X POST IS SUPA SCUMMY". And teve the stuff in your catchup post - well, most of that "DIRECTING THA COP" kinda crap is a nulltell.

Seriously. No scum pulls that kind of gambit. I have never, not once seen scum pretending to be newbies to propose something that they shouldn't. It's like when a newbie says we should no lynch. It's just not scummy.

Given that I don't have you down as an "anti-town always = scummy" type, I don't see how you can honestly believe in your case on Wraith. And Robb, again, follows the same pattern. A weak player, an easy lynch, no thought, no actual scumhunting going on.

All this builds into a pattern of behaviour. It looks to me like you're looking for the easy lynch instead of scumhunting - you've made 3 posts containing anything I would classify as any sort of scumhunting (your initial and two posts where you address the wagons.) And I still haven't forgotten that dismissal of my prozac case - that was so strange to me. You think a connection to dead scum and a pattern of lurking is less strong than a bunch of newbish actions and "detracting from the town"? We're not playing hunt the bad players, we're playing mafia. We're scumhunting. I hated hated hated that you tried to discredit me by saying I was tunneling. Seriously. I have been looking at many players and drawing conclusions on all of them - I have a multitiude of townreads. But you? You just have your wraithread and you're happy with that.

It's particularly egregious when the cop died. My first intinct was "ok dana's scum", and my second one was "did the cop breadcrumb any results? Better go check." So I did. I don't expect everyone to do that, but I do expect experienced players to. Similarly, when the scum died, it seems like you haven't looked at all. There's so much potential information in this game, and you're just faffing about pushing the same damn case again and again on different players. You haven't looked at dead scum to try and discern info from them. You haven't questioned anyone at any given time except your top suspect. There seems to be no attempt to get a read on anyone. Look at Reckoner's interaction with me early game, where he questions me and then backs off. What's happened to that kind of stuff? Nothing in your posts indicates anything more to me than scum who just wants to coast to victory.

Prozac is a horrible lurker (almost as bad as benmage was) who has, recently, spent more time defending himself than engaging in the game. But you're scummier.

Vote: Gorrad

[Shanba]

Bloody hell, how is it even OMGUS anyway? As far as I know, he's not yet expressed any suspicion of me.

[Shanba]

Feh, I'm so sick of this all of a sudden. I'll address the rest later when I'm in a better mindstate, but please explain this morcel:

"He actively detracted from the game with his posts. Town have no reason to act the way his did." I don't know what this means. Actively detracted from the game? You mean he was no fun to play with? That's not scummy. Frankly, this could be in tagalog for all the sense it makes to me - I simply cannot get what point you're trying to make.

[Shanba]

Bunnylover is another bad wagon.

He put himself, time and again, on the 'martyr' block while not scumhunting at all. IF he's town, he actively tried to not have scum be caught. He then later on admits that the only reason he put himself up to be martyred is so that he'd seem protown and not be lynched.

Actively tried to not have scum be caught? That's a pretty huge leap from "tried not to be lynched himself." But anyway, with tells like these I always feel the fudge factor is too large to take them particularly seriously - there's a large chance that the player doing it is just new (OH NO DONT LYNCH ME is a pretty common new player reaction) and hence although there's a particular advantage for scum such that rational scum will perform said act more often than rational town, the irrational town/scum factor is much larger than both and swamps any potential utility from the scumtell.

Thanks! I understand where you're coming from and will try to explain what I can.

1. Yes. I hopped on the easy lynch. What you're overlooking here is that my second choice of lynch at the time was at L-2. Obviously Wraith wasn't going to get lynched that day, and Dana had claimed cop. I was happy to lynch someone I found scummy D1.

?

Do you mean wickedest when you said wraith? Also, dana was much lower on your scumlist than that - d1 it wasn't just wraith ahead, it was wickedest and hiphop, too. What's more, your day 2 vc analysis didn't dig any dirt on dana. From this section it looks like the reason you weren't voting dana was because he had claimed cop, but in reality he was a long way down your list.

2. I repeatedly told you. He actively detracted from the game with his posts. Town have no reason to act the way his did. And I daresay I made more of a case on him than anyone else. I can understand that you may not understand my case on him, but it was MY case.

I know I've partially addressed this, but I don't feel it's true. For starters, there were a number of players who had expressed suspicion of Wraith before you had, and a number of cases had been made against him - for example, confidanon. I struggle to call what you added a case at all - it covered a lot of the same ground other cases did, and what's more parts of it came after your vote on Wraith. In fact, the reason you are stating here as your primary one (the "martyring") didn't happen until well into day 2.

But that's not what really gets me. It's that everyone you've attacked (seriously attacked, that is, not throwaway remarks in your vc analyses) have been players already on the town radar. Take robbnva. Xite pointed him out to you first. Wraith, similarly - other players got there first. I think if you were properly scumhunting, you'd find many more players who were under the radar and attack them.

3. I don't look at connections. It's really not something I trust. They're SO EASY to fake, and when I'm scum I go out of my way to do so. Porochaz is lurking, yes. I accept that. But I don't see anything else to your case.

Well, for a start there's the stuff I posted day 2 which you totally ignored. The thing about benmage was a sidepoint. Regardless, you're wrong about connections. Maybe you fake them, and I agree that it's good scum play to fake them, but I think the vast majority of scum players don't - and an even smaller fraction fake them when under no pressure (notably, they only start thinking about these things when they realise they're going to be lynched.) What's more, that particular type of connection - attacking a weak case on a partner - is a scumtell I'm particularly happy with. When scum see a strong case on their partner then they might well know there's little point defending him, but when the case is weak there's no reason not to try and shut it down instead (after all, a good townie shuts down weak cases). At the time, all I had said about prozac was that I thought he was scum. The fact that benmage found this practically the only thing worht commenting on in practically the entire game day is significant.

As for your tunneling: I have made cases on Dana, Robb, Wraith, and Frank, and mentioned multiple times my dislike of Flinter and Hiphop. Other than Porochaz and Myself, who do you suspect? I have no bloody idea. Maybe you aren't tunneling, but you certainly aren't expressing that in thread.

Where are these cases then? I've seen a few points, but never anything solid. It seems like smoke and mirrors to me.

As for me tunneling - yes, I've had prozac and now you as my top suspects for a while. Day 1, you may note, I was the first vote on dana and then started the pressure against hiphop. On later days? Day 2 I mostly pushed prozac (the push on flinter was for a reason I'd rather not reveal yet - but I didn't have any particular feeling s/he was scum), but that was because I didn't think my prozac attacks were getting the attention they deserved. I've repeatedly named hiphop as a player I'm worried about - simply because his contribution level has been unacceptable and that's prevented me from getting a read - and until he died, UA was my third (after you and prozac - although tbf you've only really crystallised as scummy in my mind since about mid day 2 when some of your posts on wraith started to ring alarm bells). But he was a pretty damn distant third.

Regardless, I've also been very vocal about other issues. I take offence to your use of the word tunneling, as it implies that I'm not looking elsewhere. I am, but the cases I've seen elsewhere haven't been appealing. I've made it pretty clear I think wraith is town, for example. The fact is there's a core of active, self-destructive players who keep attracting wagons (wraith, dana, robb, frank) that frankly, I don't think are very strong (dana obviously being an exception when the rber failed to rb him and the real cop died - even I have to admit that's a pretty decent case ) and then there's a plethora o shadowy, half-there, fade into the background types who've been happy to pretty much coast along all game (UA, Lowell, Benmage, Prozac etc.) As such it's been hard to read, but I'm pretty sure most of the core group, players like xite and wraith, are town. I have strong townreads on those two, in fact. Which means that given I have a scumread, and that scumread is on one of the god damn lurkers, I'm pretty certain he's scum. The lukewarm response I've had has only fuelled that - my case is fairly strong, I know that, so I'm bemused as to why it's pretty much fallen flat.

I don't go for the easy lynches. I start the wagons. I don't hop on for the ride, I make cases. The reason the lynches are easy is because either Xite or I push them and everyone else agrees. Look at every wagon I've been on- how many of them have me not in the first few votes? If I hopped on at the end parroting, I might believe your case had more merit. As it is, I think you just don't understand what I've been saying, and that paired with OMGUS (in response to the tunneling accusation) is the root of it.

I look forward to your reply : )

Well, at least you're polite scum ^_^

[Shanba]

What? Please don't give me that bullshit. I am not thikning you're scum because you're vocal, nor am I thinking Prozac is scum because he's vocal.

[Shanba]

Please, stop diagnosing me with stuff. It's not because of OMGUS, it's not because you're vocal. It's because you're scummy for the reasons I've already given.

[Shanba]

improved my gorrad case? Sorry but speaking frankly, the cases on both bunnylover and xite are shit. xite defended dana a bit? So what? Frankly, I was shocked that no one had any doubts at all. I was still wrestling with my thoughts at that point.

As far as bunnylover goes, I don't see anything more than smoke and mirrors. Still, he's one of those fade-into-the-background types, and unlike xite I don't have any particular townread on ihm. Bullet to my head between him and xite it would be him, but I don't intend to be pressured into yet another suboptimal lynch.

Actually, I'm slightly baffled at this point. How can you people believe these cases you have are strong? Honestly, either there's somethign I just don't get or everyone is playing terribly. No one, with the exception of wickedest, has said practically anything at all that I agree with, and the way my cases have fallen flat baffles me, because I know they're good cases. This stuff would normally have people jumping up and down in anticipation, or at least acknowledgement - I had to post about that prozac case several times before anyone read it, and even then it seems a substantial number of people just ignored it. Am I being dumb? Are people just not paying attention? What the hell is going on?

[Shanba]

I clearly gave shanba

three

options. Follow either of the bandwagons

or think of something new, either on Gorrad, or on someone else

. On this moment I have a townread on Shanba, but I really want him to do scumhunting that others would agree with. It's just a better use of his scumhunting qualities. Now, I made this very clear, then why do you misrep me by saying that I give him only two options.

Hey flinter, the problem I have with this is fairly simple. I don't have any particular reason to think the two who are top suspects today are scum. I do have good reason to believe gorrad is scum. I'm not going to go from a case I think is strong to a case I think is weak just because you guys want me to. If you don't agree with my scumhunting then I suppose you're entitled to your opinion, but I'm not going to change my mind based on that.

Tell you what, I can compromise a bit here. I have been skimming xite's posts a bit since I've had a townread on him - I'll go back and reread him thoroughly and tell you all exactly what I make of the case. Ok?

[Shanba]

Oh man, I just read the last couple of pages of prozac's iso again. He is being so phenomenally lazy. I understand the appeal, but seriously, if you're town get your act into gear mate.

I don't like the fact that everyone here died except for me:
Hiphop [3] (Dana, Lowell, Bunnylover)

What are you insinuating here? You do know hiphop died and is town, right?

The vig/sk is killing off lurkers, nitwits.
- nhammen
- benmage
- kise/ua
- baby spice/lowell

In the case of baby spice, I'm willing to bet he went with dana's first day 4 post. But other than that, he's killing off lurkers, which is not a thing an sk would do.

Oh I totally missed this first time round. Why the hell would any vig go with a fakecop's claimed guilty?

MME is pretty bad in general, actually. Definitely one I want to keep my eye on. Since he replaced in he's been like prozac without the drunk posts - barely posting, and when he does, posting without addressing barely anything.

Bunnylover is probably town. Yes, new, and hence making mistakes, but town. The more I think about it the more I reckon this is probably another of those bad wagons on poor players that have so plagued this game.

I'm beginning to doubt my gorrad case a bit. I think it's moer likely he's just misguided. In fact, my top suspect right now is MME (partially because I've all but convinced myself that prozac was investigated by Kise). I'll get a proper case on him soon.

The defence of dana is troublesome, but I don't think xite is scum. Essentially the assumption there is that xite would invest a large amount of energy into protecting a buddy who was essentially doomed if any real cop claimed or died (as eventually happened.) I don't see that being a worthwhile strategic decision for scum. Maybe I'm giving him too much slack, but although he's made a number of poor cases and pushed a few twnies to their deaths this game, he's also been one of the fwe players who I feel are actively scumhunting. He's attacking things that look bad to him, picking up stuff that others have missed and then not been afraid to change his position if he's had a change of heart.

I think xite fell into a wifomtrap on day 3, but I'm still fairly certain he's town.

Flinter: I could go back and pick out a whole bunch of semantical things gorrad said, I could spew a whole bunch of theory as to why I completely disagree witha lot of the stuff he pushed, but basically my case boils down to a) I don't think he's scumhunted honestly/hard enough and b)he seems to be looking for entirely the wrong things, leading to him being on a lot of terrible wagons. If that's not enough to convince people, adding a bunch of fluff won't help (or at least it ought not to.) Regardless, I'm coming around to the idea that he and I have different philosophies on what is scummy.

Gorrad: I still think you're not giving my prozac case nearly enough credit. It's much more than just lurking.

Of the big wagons today, bunnylover is the best, but still not great.

Unvote Vote: MME

[Shanba]

Heh. I was actually referring indirectly to gorrad there: explaining why I don't feel like pushing his case further with little bits and pieces. That was addressed to you, it wasn't about you, flinter.

[Shanba]

Oh jesus, deadline tomorrow. A choice between poison, guillotine or the electric chair. All these viable wagons suck is what I'm saying.

Unvote Vote Bunnylover

putting him at 3. I'll vote for one of wraith/thingy if I have to.

[Shanba]

I'm kinda second guessing myself a little here, but then that's hardly surprising given I don't want to lynch any of them. I think Wraith is a better lynch than bunnylover, but wraith is now l-4 whereas bunnylover is l-1... condundrum. If xite voters switch to wraith I would swap over, but if it's bunnylover or bust then it's bunnylover or bust.

[Shanba]

Why am I still alive?

Well obviously gorrad was the wrong tack. However, another easy wagon on a stupid townie has just confirmed to me that the town in general is looking in the wrong place. And xite flipping town is so hilariously unsurprising, as is bunnylover. But if I'm right about this stuff, why keep me alive? It's clearly not in the hope of getting me lynched, so I must be no threat to the scum. I guess with all my energy focused on gorrad, that's not surprising, but it also means I'm doubting my prozac read a bit. When it comes down to it, though, you gotta go with that gut and my gut still is screaming scum on prozac. Better to take a stand and find out you're wrong than never have taken that stand at all.

The problem now is a lot of the people I had definitive (and mostly town) reads on are dead. I mean, I virtually have no read on evilpacman, singersigner, antihero and demonhybrid. These are the people I want to check over today, along with MME. MME was a spur of the moment thing yesterday, a quick glimpse at his posts combined with a memory of vague inactivity - I want to be a bit more thorough today.

That's the plan. I wish we had lynched wraith instead of bunnylover yesterday, but I had to make a spur of the moment decision and had to make a decision that I didn't want to make and I guess I wasn't thinking clearly, as bunnylover very pro-town. And equally, I'm having some second thoughts about wraith.

Finally, I think we ought to massclaim today- or more to the point, any info roles and the second killer ought to claim. Its all very well saying we arent in lylo yet, but leaving a massclaim until lylo has its own perils. I'd guess we have 1-2 more mafia and 1 vig/sk, o maybe we can leave it one more ay, but I like plenty of time to deal with counterclaims, possible serial killers and the like.

[Shanba]

BTW, I want a top 3 from MME. Same from Demon, Wraith.

[Shanba]

No, top 3 reasons that I'm awesome.

Course I mean top 3 scum list, silly .

[Shanba]

Singer, evilpacman, Wraith.

Hrm

Are there any others you find scummy?

[Shanba]

Singer, evilpacman, Wraith.

Hrm

Are there any others you find scummy?

flinter is a 4th. Not OMGUS, mind you, but from our interactions yesterday. It gave me an iffy feeling.

So you don't think prozac is scummy then?

[Shanba]

Ok, my donotlynchtoday list has expanded. Antihero and evilpacman are not going to be lynched by me. Of the people I said I was going to check over, the last one to do is singersigner. I also haven't yet double checked on MME.

Wraith: what about that votecount makes prozac scummy?

[Shanba]

Ok, so I can be convinced on to a singersigner wagon. There's a couple of things that strike me the wrong way, both of which are related to dana. Firstly, during day 1, singer (like a lot of people) gets drawn into the dana vs frank dichotomy thing. But she calls them both scummy and stupid and repeatedly tries to intimate this is some kind of bussing play. At the time she was doing this, it looked like dana was the one going down, so linking dana and frank would be a pretty smart move as scum. Combined with the fact that I don't really see how it looks like bussing at all, that's a serious question mark frowny face thing.

Secondly, there's her reaction to dana's claim. She's careful to show that she's still suspicious of dana, but that we shouldn't lynch him today. Which is like the perfect balancing act if a scumbuddy claims a power role for a player that's worried about being linked to them. So again, a little bit dodgy there - and it gets worse, because with no real explanation, her position has changed by day 2 to thinking dana is town and claiming he made the smart play (or more exactly, "did what any smart cop would do") in targeting DP. I want to focus on that wording a wee bit - singer clearly believes that a cop would have targeted DP that night. I'm not sure everyone would agree that was the smart play, and the idea had to hav come from somewhere - it's easy to think that that topic might be discussed in the mafia qt, and you'd probably assume that they'd tell dana to claim to target whoever they think a real cop would target. So another strike against her there.

Other than that? I thought xite was pretty obviously town, but I don't think people voting people who I think are pretty obviously town is that telling a scumtell when pretty much everyone in the game has been guilty of it. And besides, since gorrad flipped town I'm beginning to doubt my own reads a little bit anyway. But hey, I calls it as I sees it.

On to MME now.

[Shanba]

Ok, reading MME's iso I'm against lynching him today. Whooo backtracking. I've come to a different conclusion about the post that set off massive alarm bells yesterday.

Singer is a much better lynch.

Vote: Singersigner

a) way to bypass my point completely and start talking about something else. I am referring of course to your continued assessment that frank and dana must be scumbuddies. There was not a huge number of people doing that, if any.

b) Yes, reads change, but they generally change for a reason. You had very clearly stated that you didn't believe dana's claim day 1 and were only holding off lynching him because you didn't want to lynch a claimed cop day 1. Then day 2 you come out and say you believe his claim, simply because he did what a smart cop would. That's a strange reason to suddenly believe him when you had been fairly certain he was scum day 1.

c) The point I am making is that scum would certainly believe that dana's target was the smart one. Not all players believed that dana's target was the smart one. That you so clearly did is significant - it's not WIFOM; if anything, your attempt to discredit it is WIFOM. But anyhoo.

[Shanba]

Too many suspects, not enough evidence to go around. The only person I'm certain about alignment is Shanba, and since he's been a voice of reason throughout the game I'll go with him.

-_- buddying, heh.

You still trust my reads after gorrad flipped town?

[Shanba]

I don't trust my read on wraith any more. I still think he's town, but I might just be biased by the appalling cases that have been thrown at him generally - there might be some scummy stuff I can't bring myself to admit. But singersigner is scum regardless.

[Shanba]

10AM october 31st, pacman.

[Shanba]

I'm quite happy with a singersigner lynch today.

Singer, if you're a townie you should be giving us your last thoughts. If you're one of those people who keeps shit to themselves, spew it all out. And last callouts, theories, wild ideas, get them down.

If you're scum you can do what you like.

[Shanba]

Ah.

[Shanba]

Good game. Slow burning, but really took off towards the end - I found days 1, 2 and actually 3 as well fairly stupid. It was only actually when we were down to about 12 players that I started to enjoy myself. I maintain that we spent far too much effort going after players playing badly (furcolow, wraith, robbnva) and not nearly enough going after players acting scummy. Of course, my scumhunting was pretty innocuous this game too, so I can't really spout my mouth off to much on that - and I was seecond guessing myself on wraith (found his buddying on me fairly unnerving).

I was suckered in by pacman and DH. Both benefitted from a good start from their predecessors, but both held it together well. The scum were good enough that I couldn't tell them apart from the massed town, and that's generally good enough to win.

I honestly feel antihero's claim was a mistake. I feel for him though. I've been sk once - I lost in lylo after picking the wrong target to kill (4 alive, 1 mafia, we both killed the same guy and I was bulletproof). That was in a 12p game and it hurt. I can't imagine what it must feel like in a large. To be so close, and yet so far! Especially after the excellent job with the nightkills.

Town pulled out a fairly undeserved win in the end. We were always behind the curve. I don't think any of the scum except dana came under any serious pressure until endgame - they were simply eviscerated by the sk.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a hat to eat. And socks. And trousers. And a street to run down naked.

[Shanba]

Man, i wish ppl listened to me and lynched dana day 1 !!!!

My cop-fake-claim actually helped...

Don't do that shit.

Seriously.

Let me make it clear to you: I don't care what you think you're doing, you honestly are nowhere near good enough to pull that off properly. You need to be both bloody certain and bloody good at scumhunting to do that shit, and I guarantee you you aren't the latter. The risk/reward calcs on that kind of play are terrible.

[Shanba]

hatahs gonna hate.

Mhm.