Cereal Killers - Mini 1027 (Game Over)

[XScorpion]

I wasn't asking you anything. The whole thing is directed @ Robo.

[xvart]

Responses from page 7:

Because I don't see how answering an question about someone else's vote is a really solid parrotting scumtell. First of all, why is XScorp responsible for knowing the details of my vote and how can he possibly be scummy for not knowing? How else is he supposed to provide an answer to the question except use the context of the game?

1. Because your declaration that you would vote Kirbyoshi has been talked about a lot and he should know at least that.

Sorry, I misread their back and forth. They were talking about Sawyer's vote on me. And the back and forth was basically both of them saying they didn't know why he was voting me, and XScorp responded with what I assume he dug out of the thread.

2. It means that he was not reading the thread, which is known to be scummy.

I agree that not reading the thread is anti-town, but not necessarily scummy. I think there's been a couple people say the same thing (but I might be mixing a couple games now).

3. This is a very good question. Right now, tbh, I haven't been able to formulate a decent answer to this question as I have no clue how to answer this. If I can ever answer it decently, I will immediately get back to you on this.

Yeah, that was my point above (except for the wrong vote in question). He was asked to justify a vote by someone else. XScorp asked Charter why Sawyer's vote was bad (as Charter said); Charter responded that he didn't know why he was voting for me and then asked XScorp if he knew why Sawyer was voting for me; XScorp responded: "I dunno, because Xvart said he would vote for Kirby if Kirby's daykill was fake? That seems like the right reason.". That isn't parrotting in my opinion, which was the original quote in question when parrotting was raised.

re: weak defence - I don't really think that having a weak defense of oneself is necessarily a scumtell either; not everyone is good at defending himself and I don't think that indicates alignment; especially when the cases are weak (in my opinion) to begin with.

By weak defense, I meant that his defense doesn't really look genuine to me, not to mention he continues to be scummy while defending himself IMO.

I'll go back and reread him to see if it sounds genuine to me; but my initial response is that I feel like the attacks on him are much more contrived.

---

Lurkers: Confid, Zang
Active Lurkers: XScorp

I think you're getting your reads mixed up (which is understandable since you really never justify anything) but now XScorp is the active lurker? He has 11 more posts than you do. I've also noticed that you have continued to not explain any of your reads when asked. Is there some reason other than the obvious?

Spyrex is so obviously town, every time you try and call him scum I just get 100% more sure you are scum.

Why is he so obviously town? Please enlighten me because I have a fairly neutral read on him. I also like you didn't answer Jenni when she asked you, but to give you the benefit of the doubt I'll just assume you missed it. I'm guessing hiphop will probably switch his vote to you since not answering questions is the "first sign of being scum." But maybe that is only non-game related questions?

---

@xvert: Who is your number 2 read?

At the time of your question, I probably would have said hiphop; but now I would definitely say hiphop with his recent attempts to undermine me by misconstruing and truncating my posts to make it look like I'm not answering his questions. The evidence in my previous post where he tailored our quotes to his accusation is especially damning.

xvart.

[jenniwren]

XScorpion: First, off the record/out of game/whatever passes for being unofficial communication

...you brought up what I said about you in earlier posts, and the way you addressed it with Robo made me feel as though you were personally offended. I felt bad about the way I said what I did when I reread that post later, and SSBF already sort of called me out about it and defended you in post #127, but I didn't know how to address it in game since no one seems to be able to say anything and be taken at face value; however, since you brought it up, I am going to address it. Anyway, I’m sorry if I offended you personally with any thoughtless comments I have made. It's not an excuse, but I was caught up in the moment in which I was writing and was maybe a little—or a lot—meaner than I should have been. That’s not in keeping with the spirit of the game, and I apologize to you and anyone else who may have been personally offended by anything I have said; that was not my intention at all.

On the record/back in game/etc:

I do feel that the underlying issues of what I posted about you and Robo have some validity, and that bringing them up and pointing them out is justified. This time, however, I will attempt to address them with maybe a little more explanation and a little less venom.

The crux of what was meant in the earlier post is basically this:
I am not convinced you are scum, but I do think you've definitely done some pretty anti-town things so far.

If you two aren’t scum and you don’t think that the little back and forth you have had going with Robo this entire time hasn’t marked you as a target for mislynch by scum then you might want to think again. If you don’t think doing something like rolefishing will set you up for trouble, then you also need to think again. I don’t want to read through all your personal history with Robo; you two should take that up elsewhere because it isn't useful to this game and the town win-con at all. You are both experienced players, so you should know better than to drag your dirty laundry through this game when it has nothing to do with this game.

That being said, I don't think that stuff necessarily makes you scum, and I think there are some others far scummier than you, which is why I am not voting for one of you.

Hiphop

I find jenni to be newb (if that offends you sorry) who is still learning how to play.

I can’t be offended by the truth. I'd rather not use that crutch, though. Also, don't discredit newbies too much. For all our faults, one thing we have going for us is fresh perspective.

[bouncy.bouncy]

Fixing hiphop's vote.

VOTE COUNT

7 to lynch
Xscorpion (5) Super Smash Bros. Fan, charter, SpyreX, Kirbyoshi, Sawyer
charter (2) xvart, jenniwren
xvart (1) hiphop
Robocopter87 (1) Xscorpion

Not voting (3) [Robocopter87] ConfidAnon, Zang

[Robocopter87]

If I had a vote on XScorp I would unvote, lets NOT lynch him today please.

His one post flipped my whole read upside down.

Xscorp, which post of hiphops were you referring to?
There was two or three on the last page, can you give me a post number?

[XScorpion]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p2463602

[Robocopter87]

Its actually a little scummy. But really I am going to say its null for me. Why?

[XScorpion]

Be more specific please. And particularly pay attention to the last paragraph and tell me what you think of it.

[Robocopter87]

Except for the xscorpion rolefishing, there would be nothing that separates xscorpion-scum from robo-scum, and I really do not like all the noise they are pushing. In fact now that I think about it I really do not think the rolefishing was so bad. Look at it this way-kirby fake vigs, the mod writes the flavor. Now based off what other people said it looked like people believed that kirby was actually a vig after the flavor, but were not quite sure. Now if that were the case the fake-vig can be looked at as a real vig. And if he is a real vig, then he just breadcrumbed his role. Now I am not an expert on breadcrumbing, but i believe it is supposed to be like an actual claim, but not quite. But being that is was so blatant, then it was an actual claim. Confirm claim anyone? And being that he asked before kirby verified the kill was a fake makes it not scummy compared to scummy if he did afterwards. So the way i look at it xscorp and robo are just noise so far. What is the difference between the 2?

I don't really know what your getting at Xscorp. I think that he is right in the fact that we are no different. He kinda talked about us then went to Kirby's daykill thing and then came back to us. This is pretty null to me.

[XScorpion]

If we are no different, why do you think 5 people are voting me while only 1 person is voting you?

[Robocopter87]

Because I laid out my case before you did. I actually took the time to explain my vote. But it took me a while, like it did you. i don't think anyone has read your case yet. And I don't feel that this wagon on you is good.

I want to spotlight Zang for a second,
COME OUT ZANG!!!!!1111

[XScorpion]

Because I laid out my case before you did. I actually took the time to explain my vote.

No, that can't be the reason, because most of them have been voting me since before you made your 'case.'

[Robocopter87]

Well, you were pretty scummy I guess.

I don't know the reason.

[XScorpion]

K
Also you really should go and answer that case post I made.

[Robocopter87]

Its a decent case. I don't have anything to respond to.

[Robocopter87]

Oh, and maybe because I have dropped the hint that I would be better off NK'ed than Lynched.

[charter]

If I had a vote on XScorp I would unvote, lets NOT lynch him today please.

Good thing you have no say in who we lynch today.

[Robocopter87]

Bully.

[xvart]

Quote wall ahead. I typically don't really like PBPA but thought it was important to consolodate scummy behavior of charter in one place. I don't comment on every post of his so I implore you to do your own ISO/full reread for the full scope/double check to make sure I am not misrepresenting him. For you lazy readers, tl;dr version at bottom, but context is excluded.

Wait, I just noticed Robocopter voted for himself. We should lynch him to punish this behavior, OR MAYBE DAYKILL HIM HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA.

Suggestion that "we" should lynch robo when he is not voting robo. Could be argued to be a joke, except for the follow up questions and justification for asking the question later in the game.

SSBF, xvart, Xscorpion, hiphop, Kirbyoshi, and Sawyer. Why did none of you comment on how Robocopter voted himself?

Robocopter, why shouldn't we lynch you right now?

The implication that there was something wrong with not commenting on it (therefore scummy) to SSBF, XScorp, hiphop, Kirby, Sawyer, and me for not commenting on the self vote.

Guys, I am 99% sure that XScorpion is scum. I've already identified three townies. The rest of you are making this very difficult to figure out who his buddies are (except Sawyer, who is making it very easy to see he is scum).

Actually, it's probably SSBF with his whole "There is definently an overreaction to Kirbyoshi's fake daykill attempt. I knew this wasn't serious, so I saw no point in making a negative reaction to it." speech.

XScorpion, Sawyer, and SSBF, what is your opinion of the other two?

Solid scum read on XScorp and a solid three town reads on unknown people. No justification for any of it. Says everyone else is making it difficult for him to identify the rest of the scum buddies (although Sawyer apparently is scum independent of XScorp). Also identifies SSBF as probable scum. Overall, terribly scummy post.

Your whole "vote Robo and see what happens idea" is inherently scummy in nature, and as such, I believe (quite strongly by this point) that you are scum.

Scum "wait and see what happens" whereas townies "make stuff happen".

Plus, your timing of it was bad, how you posted some, then did some RVSing. Then, the degree that you're pushing the idea (of which nobody seems to have much interest in following) I find pretty bad.

What about Sawyer do you like? His active lurking, his deflecting questions, his poor voting, or something else?
How is SSBF behaving consistent with his town meta? You didn't really give an opinion on him, I would still like one.

I'm not voting Robo because I don't think he's scum.

I italicized a flawed argument in the quote. You can not unilaterally claim that scum "wait and see what happens" while townies "make things happen." In an ideal utopia, this may be correct; but it hardly has any basis in reality. Just because it supports your argument does not make it true. Also questions XScorp under the pretext that Sawyer is scummy.

It is also interesting how he when he explains his reasoning on voting XScorp he says "[he] believe

(quite strongly at this point) implying that since his 99% claim his scum read on XScorp has increased. What happened between these two posts? One post: This. I think he is trying to validate his scum read by saying more had come forth.

Also charter: Any particular reason you think Robocopter is town?

I didn't say I think he's town. I said I don't think he's scum. I don't have much of a read on him one way or the other.

Waffles on Robocopter, saying he isn't town but doesn't have a read on him at all. Saying someone isn't scum does not equal having no read on that person. Speculation: I'm starting to wonder if this is a slip knowing Robo's alignment (by virtue of not being on a scum team together) but backpedaling to seem ambivalent about his alignment. There is just no good way to argue semantics in this case because it is so clear.

Jenniwren is shaping up nicely for the slot of lurkerscum, we'll have to see how that pans out as time goes by. Actually, now that I actually read her post 53, I believe we've got another scum hooked.

Charter now believes that Jenni is lurkerscum. Note that the game had only been started 26 hours prior to this statement, in which Jenni had posted two times (excluding her confirmation post). This read is most perplexing, as even if he didn't agree with Jenni's analysis or observations, it can hardly be said to be active lurking. Another fluff accusation that casts doubt on someone based on nothing substantial.

I put myself in their shoes and answered the question, and I came up with something similar to what they said.

This is strange because he is using a scum read of his (Sawyer) to justify a townie response...

If he's not scum, like you said, then what could he be?

I said I didn't think he's scum (I don't have a scum read on him) and I said I don't think he's town (I don't have a town read on him). He is one or the other, but I don't have a clue as to what he is right now.

Tries to once again explain his read on Robo but tries to muddle the subject by adding in more nonsense like "I don't think he's town and I don't think he's scum" hoping we all would decrypt that jumble to reading "I don't have a read on him." Compare:

I'm not voting Robo because I don't think he's scum.

to:

I didn't say I think he's town. I said I don't think he's scum. I don't have much of a read on him one way or the other.

to:

I said I didn't think he's scum (I don't have a scum read on him) and I said I don't think he's town (I don't have a town read on him). He is one or the other, but I don't have a clue as to what he is right now.

Note that he never said that Robo wasn't town, but that got added in during the third permutation.

I wanted to know why they didn't comment on his self vote. I didn't follow up on it because there was nothing to follow up on. I think something did come out of it, Sawyer's deflecting.

Now Charter admits that there was no point to his self voting question and there was nothing to follow up on. Also, his follow up with Sawyer shows that he was expecting some sort of response.

I'm actually more sure of Jenniwren at this point, but I really can't imagine XScorpion and Jenniwren not being scum together.

This is especially damning, as Charter is more certain of Jenni being scum now but is voting XScorp (and they can't possibly not be scum together).

You never answered the question I asked: Why would I comment on Robo's self vote?

You could for any number of reasons. It wasn't random. It wasn't smart. Anything. It was an innocuous question, which just about any actual answer would have been fine, but you didn't answer, you had to question back.

Accuses Sawyer of "deflecting back" on him, which he says is scummy, by Sawyer simply asking why he would respond to the self vote. Highly defensive trying to make Sawyer scummier by him asking why the question charter asked was important/relevant.

Spyrex is so obviously town, every time you try and call him scum I just get 100% more sure you are scum.

The giant backpedal with your Spyrex and Kirby (and a little bit of Charter) scum reads is pretty scummy.

I'm debating trying to lynch Jenniwren over XScorpion. Spyrex and Hiphop, what do you think about a Jenniwren lynch?

Claims Spyrex is obvtown, and uses his unexplained town read to make Jenni more scummy. Also now wants a bandwagon on Jenni, but apparently doesn't want to start it himself.

Looks like hiphop dies day three.

Now hiphop is scummy, for unexplained, probably apparent reasons, like all his reads.

---

tl;dr version:

charter...

• pulls reads out of nowhere; hardly justifies anything, and when he does it is weak observations;
  
• has a solid scum reads on XScorp, Sawyer, Jenni, hiphop, probably SSBF. Says Jenni is his strongest read, although is voting XScorp;
  
• Uses supposed scum reads to justify townie behavior and uses alleged town reads to justify scum reads;
  
• claims Jenni is lurkerscum for posting three times in the first 26 hours of the game; probably to "deflect" attention on him (as he likes to say) because she is questioning him and putting pressure on him; and,
  
• waffles on whether he thinks robo is not scum or has a neutral read; backpedals a bunch and contrives fake reasoning.

If that's not scum I don't know what is.

xvart.

[charter]

You and Jenniwren can form the "bad cases with no possibility of leading to a lynch on Charter club". Unfortunately, it's not going to be a popular club.

There's no need for all this explaining you keep clamoring for. You see how Five people are voting for XScorpion? You think I'm scum because I didn't concoct some elaborate case on him. The real explanation is there is no need to because the other townies see the same thing I do. It's the same reason I don't need to elaborate on why Spyrex is town. Scum hate when townies identify each other, and you know what they do? They try to undermine it so that the idea doesn't catch on. I'm sure anyone who has played with Spyrex before sees he's town, whether or not they're as vocal about it as me, they are thinking it in their noggin.



(and yeah, I meant Xvart in post 195, pretty obvious I didn't mean Hiphop)

[Robocopter87]

I'm sure anyone who has played with Spyrex before sees he's town, whether or not they're as vocal about it as me, they are thinking it in their noggin.

Wow, you should become a mind reader.

My head tells me he isn't acting townie much but my mind tells me he is town.

[XScorpion]

The real explanation is there is no need to because the other townies see the same thing I do.

Wow this is just bad. You don't need to make a case because other people are voting with you? LOL

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@Robocopter87: Since XScorpion latest big post blasted your scum read off him completely, who is your top suspect now?

---

On that note, what do you think of how Robo and charter having not read the entire thread?

To be honest I will have to agree that it is scummy. I disliked how charter said that he did not read jenniwren's latest wall (Referring to her response against me). This seems intentional as although it was mostly directed at me, it did show that she wanted charter dead. Robocopter87 saying that he hasn't read jenniwren's same post is also scummy.

How did you know it wasn't serious? I can see thinking it was a joke because it was so early, but this post implies more assurance than an assumption like that.

It would make absolutely no sense for a day vig to intentionally kill a person Day 1. I see no possible town motivation for a day vig to intentionally kill off a person Day 1, which they should use later on to kill scums, not just as a RVS joke. Given that the RVS Daykill was fake, I don't see how Kirbyoshi would have serious motivation for doing so.

hiphop: Hiphop overreacted to me at the beginning in the same way as Charter overreacted to Robo's self vote, but in this case, hiphop is definite scum in Robo's eyes.

Robocopter87 said hiphop was leaning scum. He did not say he was definite scum. Where did he say that?

Its a decent case. I don't have anything to respond to.

Nothing to say in your defense? Seriously, you aren't even going to try?

---

@xvart: Will try to get back at you later.

[XScorpion]

Robocopter87 said hiphop was leaning scum. He did not say he was definite scum. Where did he say that?

It's hyperbole. I'm speaking relatively. Didn't you notice how he only had two scumreads?

[Robocopter87]

@Robocopter87: Since XScorpion latest big post blasted your scum read off him completely, who is your top suspect now?

I can definitely say that hiphop as been on my list of scum.

On that note, what do you think of how Robo and charter having not read the entire thread?

To be honest I will have to agree that it is scummy. I disliked how charter said that he did not read jenniwren's latest wall (Referring to her response against me). This seems intentional as although it was mostly directed at me, it did show that she wanted charter dead. Robocopter87 saying that he hasn't read jenniwren's same post is also scummy.

I said I hadn't read it just then, but I did read it.

Its a decent case. I don't have anything to respond to.

Nothing to say in your defense? Seriously, you aren't even going to try?

No. I'm not going to defend myself from a decent case that changed my read of a player.