Ladies Night -- Game Over

[RedCoyote]

Vote Count 2.2

• Haylen

  (3) (Apokalyptika - Sucrose - Fenchurch)
  
  
  Snow_Bunny

  (3) (

  camn

  - Hoopla - camn - UncertainKitten)
  
  
  Apokalyptika
  (2) (cepi - DrippingGoofball -

  camn

  )
  
  
  camn
  (2) (Haylen - Snow_Bunny)
  
  
  chauchaudotcom
  (1) (Sotty7)
  
  
  Sucrose
  (0) (

  UncertainKitten

  )
  
  
  DrippingGoofball
  (0) (

  Hoopla

  )
  
  
  Not Voting
  (2) (Ojanen -

  Sucrose

  - chauchaudotcom -

  Fenchurch

  -

  Snow_Bunny

  )

With thirteen alive, it takes seven to lynch.

Current Deadline: Sept. 25th, 2010 at 10:30 AM (CST)

[Snow_Bunny]

Just a quick note, I can't do much on weekends. I'll answer everything back on Monday.

[Ojanen]

Goddammit I just lost a post and how can this reading be so hard. I wonder if this sensation is akin to drunk posting. Haven't finished yet, will. However impatient to get on with this: Apok needs to die.

I gave some reasons why she's scummy in here earlier. Moreover:

Unvote, Vote: camn

I wanted to give camn a chance to clarify her statements.
By over-the-top scummy, I meant that the buddying was to such an extent that I'm almost not sure what to make of it. For instance:
Mild: "Hm, those players seem to be voting together a lot. Something to keep an eye on."
Medium: "Huh, not only are they voting together, but they attack whoever casts suspicion on either one and defend each other. That's scummy."
Severe:

What camn is doing. It seems too blatant to be scum, but it doesn't seem town either...it's just bizarre.

Also, without DGB here to possibly clarify/give her opinions on what's going on, I feel like I might be getting an incomplete picture. However, I feel that I can't overlook it, hence the FoS and now vote.

This is a scummy mindset.
1. Something unusual happens.
2. Underlined means she can't see real town or scum motivation for it.
3. She concludes that she cannot overlook it and has to find it scummy.
Reminds me of a scumpartner once upon a time (Herodotus in Amished village) with added carefulness due to the delayed vote.

She backs off camn and in 184 switches to Paws (4th vote). What makes it feel very ungenuine is that there has been a fair amount of loud talk on Paws and up until now she has completely ignored all of it. That makes it seem not an actual reaction to Paws, and it's not the stage yet where it would be a reaction to the wagon. In fact the only people she has prior mentioned are camn/Hoopla/Haylen/DGB.

When she backs off camn she says:

So I slept on it, and also I've been a good little girl and read up on some older games of camn's (and Hoopla's) to get some context. I noticed from Medieval Mafia that camn loves policy-whatevering people as town. I also saw a somewhat lesser degree of buddying. My case was not as strong as I had envisioned.

Unvote: camn

In a few hours, I'll make a rather longer post wherein I try to analyze camn and Hoopla deeper, as well as Haylen (who I'm finding rather hard to read at the moment).
(And yes, I'm aware that I am waffling quite a bit at the moment.)

She has gotten at least 3 people quite quickly criticize her vote. She pulls it away right away coming off quite scared (look how she needs to post this before the next post in a few hours, how she says her case wasn't as strong as she had envisioned [language implies slightly subneutral read on camn at best] yet pulls off the vote immediately). There is no intention of looking at Paws yet at this point.
I don't know how to explain this. She's clearly looking for an

acceptable

place for a vote.

Overall, Apok reads as caring massively about what she looks like, being justified and so on. (And still making crap cases.)

vote: Apokalyptika

[camn]

^^agree heartily.

[camn]

Just a quick note, I can't do much on weekends. I'll answer everything back on Monday.

Also, you could answer my question without a second thought. If you didn't have to puzzle out what kind of lie to make up, that is.
The paws lynch... were you for or against?

[Ojanen]

Just saw the mod comment to my post

I would hope no one, certainly not someone who has been frequenting the website that long, would be so disrespectful. I didn't do any sort of background checking, investigating, or what have you because I had hoped no one would sink to such a level as to try and sabotage a casual game with innocent guidelines. I'll err on the side of ignorance given that this is just an allegation, and I don't really wish to persue it in any way.

My intention was not to want him replaced (as long as he doesn't flake, obviously). Just to give people who know him a better shot at reading him. I'll be analyzing him as tajo, I hope that is acceptable. I guess if it makes a difference we can leave it as just an allegation from my part.

[camn]

Just for the towns benefit:

You wanted to vote me because you think I'm a mason?

Vote camn

While im at it.

FoS Cepi

Obv not reading the thread properly....

No. I'm telling you. That I didn't know scum could day talk. From the start. I didn't read the roles and I don't read the open Role PM's mods put up. It's not scummy.

I didn't read the those pages properly because i was insanely busy on those days.

@ Haylen... which is it?
Is 'not reading the thread properly' worth suspicion? Worth a FOS even? Or is it 'not scummy'?
Also, is your vote on me based on when you were actually paying attention? Or when you were 'insanely busy'? Or based on nothing?

@ All the scum: I am surprised you guys haven't figured this out yet..... I literally can't be mislynched. Stop trying. You are going to have to kill me.

@ everyone else: Haylen is a good lynch for today, too. I support a snowbunny or haylen lynch right now..... and I would settle for Apok. But obv, we have some time and I am perfectly willing to see how they respond to questions.

[Ojanen]

All right. Finally satisfied with my level of familiarity with the material ITT, finally ready to be someone.

Showing my current work on current assumptions and flips:
Trust: DGB. cepi. Fenchurch.
Confident town lean: camn.
More or less town lean: Hoops. (more) Sucrose. (less)
Don't really know: Haylen. UK. chauchau
Slightly scummy: Sotty.
Conflicted scumread: Snow_Bunny
DIESCUM: Apokalyptika

I have elaborated on Apokalyptika already. It's one of those cases where my gut is hollering scum. I want her wagoned. Really badly.
One question about one of the only conflicted things in this read:

Hoopla: After skimming through a couple games you played, I'm finding you somewhat more suspicious. In Large Normal 105, you were town. In Mini 909 and Mini 865, you were scum.

Please explain to me the exact process on how you went about using these exact games to support your thoughts. I don't understand your process especially when the picture seems distorted. I looked at Hoopla's wiki; it's excellent and up-to-date with neat paragraphs describing every game. Why did you choose to look at these older games; did you sift through some other games too etc.

chauchau, I wish you weren't gone already. I would have given tiny townlove bits on that replacing out post unless this didn't pull it back down:

As for Snow_Bunny, I wasn't voting her because she will or will not lurk, I was voting because she proclaimed herself as a lurker.

I have seen it used more for scum purposes then town which is why I'm voting her.

Specifically where did you see it used for scum purposes?

Proclaiming yourself a lurker is giving yourself wiggle room to fall back on later on in the game.

It is, as I've seen it, far more scum motivated then town. In any instance, you guys need to realize that this vote was placed five pages into the game.

It's not like it was a solid tell. I was still in the midst of questioning others and attempting to get better reads on people. People seem to be over exaggerating the confidence I had in that tell.

I don't like that she wasn't able to give a straight answer on an already nebulous vote.

Haylen posts similarly to this

post later

also in another ongoing a the same minute as here exactly after the string of me catching the daytalk, and her previous post was just a couple of hours before I posted that, and site search seems to point at her being genuinely quite occupied that day and the next. It's totally plausible she didn't read the posts about scum daytalk. The Fenchurch one today is not explained by that, and the mason thing is weird but weird is as far as it goes. Could be Paws-wagon scum but meh. Apok's voting Haylen. I won't join that wagon at the current state of flips and information and assumptions.

@Snow_Bunny

: what is your native language?
Snow_Bunny's incredible insistence on going totally above her head in continuing and continuing to attack camn badly seems on the town side of things (key idea is the going above her head part in argumentation/communication level). That being said, the Paws wagon attitude is scummy. The FoS D1 is terrible as a sudden awakening on noticing the obvious and loud tend on the thread. This:

Ah, it was not nice to not wait me before lynching. I still want camn love, but I'm also interested in how the Paws wagon build so fast. Specially fenchurch's hammer vote.

strikes badly and I want to know specifically what did you want to be waited for?

Sucrose throws one challenge at UK that is either townish or distancing and I'm going with townish for now with hostility continuing from UK to today and all (the one about UK getting pissed). Also some Paws stuff strikes me well. Has been upgraded to townside.

I have cross-checked cepi's activity but not fully yet. At least one V/LA is legit. But he's playing genuine mafia anyway.

Ojanen didn't get NK'd, so clearly, has some inaccurate scum/town reads, but she's a genius.

I went to a laughter-coughing fit at this btw. That's a first.

I wish I didn't have to wall this up but that comes with resolved access problems. Rest of thoughts coming.

[Ojanen]

Fenchurch, your vote chart is really handy. Would you happen to have one for D1?

[Ojanen]

Paws

(8) (Sotty7 - UncertainKitten - Apokalyptika - Haylen -

DrippingGoofball - esuriospiritus - camn - Fenchurch

)
camn (1) (Snow_Bunny)
Apokalyptika (1) (

cepi

)
Snow_Bunny (1) (chauchaudotcom)
UncertainKitten (1) (

Sucrose

)
Sucrose (1) (

Hoopla

)
Not Voting (2) (

Ojanen - Paws

)

Well look at that. The people I think are behaviorally town align perfectly with filling the late wagon, which I agree was a baaad place to move for scum. It's possible I'm not fully conscious at which stage the reads were actually formed but still. Feel good about the reads now.

[Fenchurch]

Fenchurch, your vote chart is really handy. Would you happen to have one for D1?

Yeah, I posted a weblink earlier, but I now think pictures are better.

Spoiler: Day 1 votechart

Haylen posts similarly to this . . . also in another ongoing a the same minute as here exactly after the string of me catching the daytalk, and her previous post was just a couple of hours before I posted that, and site search seems to point at her being genuinely quite occupied that day and the next. It's totally plausible she didn't read the posts about scum daytalk. The Fenchurch one today is not explained by that, and the mason thing is weird but weird is as far as it goes.

Noted. For me the bit that made it scummy was her insistence on calling it WIFOM, and attempts to close the lid on discussion, which made it seem more like she was lying.

[DrippingGoofball]

The three leading wagons are super-awesome scumwagons. Any of them is good. However, we only have ONE lynch. I like where my vote is at the moment.

[UncertainKitten]

You made a mistake in your chart, Oja. Sucrose is green. That's incorrect. You apparently haven't read her very well.

[cepi]

Im posting something tonight.

Also Im definitely a girl. Mod, dont worry there.

[Sotty7]

I'm not sure how anyone can have a town read on cepi, there just isn't enough in thread to be able to get an alignment read either way which is scummy in itself.

I was still feeling Apok town but there is a red flag here. The sticking point over Hoop's meta is one thing I am taking into consideration. I would also like to her to explain why she used older games and also why she didn't use a wider sample base. Having looked at Hoop's wiki there is really no excuse for that and it is like she she picked games that agreed with her predetermined conclusion. Right now she is downgraded more towards neutral depending on her reply.

I find Haylen scummier than Apok. With scum having day talk it would explain her change of tact during day one. Also the minute camn brings up the idea of day one scum coaching for Haylen she pulls her trick of playing dumb over the mason BS. I don't think Haylen is that blind and is just playing it up here to try and fool people into thinking she couldn't possibly have day talk to say something so stupid. Also she

still

isn't playing the game. Gut scum reads don't cut it this far into the game when you aren't doing anything else. Reasoning and scum hunting is lacking here and I am not falling for the dumb card she wants to play.

I have both Snow and chauchau pretty high on my scum list, but chauchau spent practically all of day one voting for Snow and the lurker BS. The likely hood of bussing here is quite high for me because of the weakness of the vote and how chauchau did little else of any use during the day. But I need a flip before I can truly argue that. Her replacement post does give chauchau some town points, but I am not about to write of her day one behavior altogether. I want to see some real input from that player slot as soon as a replacement is found.

Snow's case on camn started off on a dislike for policy lynching combined with a following of UK. Finds camn's reaction to the vote “interesting” but really doesn't elaborate any further as to why it is is scummy, she just wants pressure there even after being asked directly to explain. There is also this:

Wow, I iso'd Paws and I must say that there's nothing there. Nine posts of pure nothingness. Seems like someone is active lurking, and let's add the benching, and we have something worthy here.

FoS: Paws

However, I prefer my vote on camn now. Her reaction to my vote has caught my attention (a bit too much for a vote so early on, imo), and I like the pressure there.

Ah, it was not nice to not wait me before lynching. I still want camn love, but I'm also interested in how the Paws wagon build so fast. Specially fenchurch's hammer vote.

But I will go on that later when I have a bit more time. Can't let the boss see I'm procrastinating when I should be working...

Snow doesn't mention Paws in the few posts she has in between these two and I can't see how the two statements gel. The first quote is clear approval of the wagon without plopping a vote down. The second seems to be Snow shunning the Paws wagon because of the speed? It doesn't make sense to me.

I am weary of UK's Paws vote and her reaction to that wagon in particular. To begin with she just comments on Paws lack of posting or comments and goes on to say she is ambivalent to the whole wagon.

/me facepalms

Paws...

Nah, you know what? Screw it, camn can get lynched later, I highly doubt she'll stop providing evidence.

Unvote, Vote Paws

UK, what changed for you to think Paws is scum here after saying you doubt the wagon would lead to scum?

UK joins the Paws wagon and then seems to do nothing but play down her role on it. Saying the Paws wagon will give us nothing. Before conceding to esurio's point about it giving us other peoples reactions to it all and declares herself official neutral on it all.

Combing all that with her early link to Snow Bunny in how Snow followed her vote on camn, I think UKScum is a high probability.

I've commented on DGB, and I still think there is a chance for her to be scum. The lack of early voting is strange and scummy, but as of right now I have stronger reads else where.

Both camn and Fenchurch have looked town to me. I don't have an issue with the hammer and I'm not swayed by any of the camn cases out there.

I'm liking Snow, chauchau as scum with either UK or Haylen as their 3rd. Maaaaaybe DGB.

[DrippingGoofball]

We definitely need to blast Snow_Bunny and Haylen. I don't care in what order.

This one is for the QT business.

VOTE: Haylen

You need to unvote first.

[UncertainKitten]

She started being willfully uncooperative. It went from newb town to being obstinate for no reason other than to obstruct town. It seemed like she was scum that didn't want to give us anything. At first I figured she was just a new player who played on quicker sites where random D1s often often happened. But, her continued obstinence in the face of attack implied she just didn't want to give away anything to me.

The second is blatant misrep and you know it Sotty. Paws HERSELF gives us nothing. The wagon is useful.

...and the THIRD is misrep as well. I was neutral on the claim thing.

I think DumbassSotty is a high probabilty.

[Ojanen]

at DGB's change.
I have a problem with Sotty. I'll try to figure out what it is exactly that nags me constantly in her posts. The vote parked on Paws the whole day doesn't help. She just called 6 players out of the 12 she's playing with scummy in her analysis. 2 town. That makes the ratio of the severeness of language drop down a lot for expected consequences to follow. Stuff like saying there's a red flag and that the Apok read went down due to there being " really no excuse" for the meta fail becomes essentially strongish language that has become devoid of expectance of consequences.

cepi is flat out lying about not being tajo, I could give proof. But he's lying town. I will leave this now.

[DrippingGoofball]

at DGB's change.

We're going to need a lynch...

Though Apolyptika maybe strategically scum-lurking, mmmm.

[RedCoyote]

Snow White replaces chauchaudotcom. Thanks, Snow White!

[Hoopla]

cepi is flat out lying about not being tajo, I could give proof. But he's lying town. I will leave this now.

HAHAHAHA

That actually makes sense when you think about it - I don't know what your proof is, but cepi, when said allowed and thought instead as 'CP' links quite handsomely with tajo's Anon account which happens to sport Pedobear as it's avatar.

[Hoopla]

Ojanen, can you explain your DGB town read? I find it quite bizarre you've put her right at the top of tree, when you've posted very little about her (and when my opinion differs heavily from yours).

[Ojanen]

Hoopla, my townread on DGB is basically a version of this:

I absolutely agree with so many of DGB's gutreads that I call town.

And I don't mean gutreads only on the level of x is scum, y is town, but the specific comments and bits from people she perceived as telling in one way or another. It's actually harder to see when I try to look at her iso now. I would need the contexts for the references again and it's even possible my feeling was exaggerated. But the feeling came from stuff like iso 2 about Sotty, iso 10, the moment of proclaiming esurio town in iso 13, moment of proclaiming Fenchurch town in iso 17, the reaction to the line from Haylen in iso 1 in degoofed form of slight twinge of town and so on.
Add to that that she voted for Apok today and I was basking in love.

[Fenchurch]

Looking back through D1 I just found this:

On another note, that little interaction between UncertainKitten and Snow_Bunny was...hm, can't say interesting...how about unusual? I don't think this is a scumtell per se, but it almost seemed as if UK were leading Snow. Not FoS-worthy, but I'll keep an eye on it.

Does this come across as a town-tell based on the daytalk spec? I didn't pick it up first time around because I just searched on the word "coaching", which she doesn't use, and it depends on whether she's speculating on UK and Snow_Bunny as scum together, or UK-scum trying to sway Snow_Bunny-town.

[Haylen]

Dont hammer me until i've posted properly. I will be pissed.