Mini 1056 - NFL Mafia (Game Over)

[Kdub]

/confirm

[Kdub]

/confirm

Vote: Kdub

You should vote now

And HOW BOUT THEM RAIDERS? 8)

OK then.

VOTE: horrordude

Was going to cite OMGUS as a reason, but being a Raiders fan is a better one

[Kdub]

raj IS policy lynches. And Town this game.

He is town based on what exactly?

[Kdub]

This post pinged on my scumdar a bit. Kdub isn't calling inhim out on a scumslip, but instead seems annoyed that inhim has such an early townread on freak. IGMEOY

It wasn't my intention to call a scumslip. I really wanted to know why he had a town read so early. And I should point out that he didn't even answer the question.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: inHim

Ignoring questions is scummy IMO.

[Kdub]

inHim's post looks like an RVS comment to me... I don't really know why the question was asked in the first place...

Doesn't seem like an RVS comment to me. Straight up calling someone town within the first couple pages of the game strikes me as odd, and warranting some sort of explanation.

I don't find mongoose's original comment to be that bad. Yes, he was not giving opinions on people, but the same could have been said for others at that point. It's a null comment to me. CT looks worse after people called him out for not giving reasons behind his vote, then he just pops in and says "yeah, GW gave good reasons for voting mongoose" even though GW posted most of his reasoning after CT's original vote. Why didn't you just give any reasons yourself at the time?

FoS: Coach Travis

[Kdub]

LL, we're best friends, so maybe I'm just biased? IDK. I have a good handle on rajtown, though, and this is it.

Should have just said that in the first place

locke: just to let you know inhim usually buddies up with me. prolly because he knows im a lose cannon and think he can read me well. i then know that if he doesnt support me then hes prolly scum. weve just played so long together its habit and if it doesnt happen then one of us is scum. if it does happen then we both are town, or both scum, or one is scum and we are following our normal game play not to look suspicious.

So you are saying if inHim buddies you (as he seems to be doing), either you are both town, or both scum, or one of you is scum. That seems like a long-winded way of saying absolutely nothing.

oh and inhim buddies up with me. i dont really buddy up with him.
even though inhim is sold on me being town. i am always suspicious of inhim for most of the game.

...
This attitude toward inHim sounds pretty contrived. Would you care to post some games you have been in with him as examples of this behavior?

Yeah, I'll admit my vote was lazy, I'll do that sometimes where I have a serious reason for voting, but just don't actually give it. Definitely something I need to work on.

Not sure I buy this excuse. If you have a serious reason when you vote, but don't say what it is because you are too lazy, that's not really a problem with your game that can be "worked on". You either do it or you don't. Unless of course you didn't have a serious reason to begin with.

[Kdub]

kdbub, what's your opinion of mongoose + jimfinn?

Mongoose's posts have seemed reasonable enough to me. I don't think the original post everyone got on him about was really much of anything, and at least two of the votes on him (inHim and CT) look particularly weak. If I had to guess, I'd say town at this point.

Jim has not posted enough for me to lean either way on him. I've never played with him before so I don't know how typical his activity level is. Obviously more content from him would be nice, but I can't say much more about him yet.

[Kdub]

To those who have not played with me before: I don't post all that much in the early stages of games in general, unless I see something that gives me a strong read. I tend to wait until my reads are stronger, so that I don't backtrack or lead others the wrong direction. Especially when I have a PR with some form of investigation, I am relatively inactive on D1 in order to allow my power to help me develop at least one of my reads.

This behavior is not necessarily scummy, it's just bad town play.

I do not actually think you have an investigative role. However, that post was very well written, up until that point. In the future, just leave that part out.

This is not an acceptable excuse, IMO. I don't even know what to say to rest of it. I mean, why on earth would you say that? As GW has already stated, it's unlikely that you actually possess that role, or you would've kept it a secret as long as possible. If you do, well, bah.

These two posts caught my attention a bit. Based on the possible roles in the setup, there is only one possible investigative role, and that role can't use it on N1 because it requires 14 points, which isn't possible on the first day. It should have been immediately clear that jim was not breadcrumbing a N1 investigation, and I am a bit suspicious that attention was being drawn to it possibly in an attempt to get him to say more about his role.

[Kdub]

The fact that kdub continues to go after townish looking players is troubling me...

That's interesting, so far I have indicated suspicion of inHim and Travis, both of whom you have accused of making bad posts. I've made a negative comment about one of raj's posts, who you have not given any opinion on. Now when I point out a couple odd posts by GW and Mari, you say that I "continue" to go after townish looking players, as if this is somehow a trend? Why are inHim and raj suddenly on your town list?

Mari/Locke:
I think you misunderstood my post. I am saying that GW/Mari thought jim was breadcrumbing *having an investigative role that he would use on N1* (which obviously he doesn't so the point shouldn't even have been made), not that he already had a result.

kdub: Locke stated the reason for this well enough. When I read kdub's post initially, I'd forgotten there wasn't an N1. Kdub is trying to keep a dead (or maybe sleeping) discussion going.

Considering the discussion happened earlier on the same page I made my post, I'd hardly consider it "dead". I saw something odd, so I'm going to continue the discussion of that until it has been addressed in a satisfactory manner. The fact that you are trying to declare the discussion "dead" after misinterpreting my post in order to qualify your vote on me is weak.

[Kdub]

This post is so f'ing full of opinions, fluff and mis rep, and on top of that you come of as scummy. I have bolded why.

News flash: opinions are an important part of playing mafia. And your comment about pressure votes is valid in general, but CT's vote clearly wasn't simply a pressure vote, otherwise he would have said so in his explanation, right?

I think it's mongoose, kdub, and horror. And I gave reasons

Did you for horror? If I missed them, please point me to them.

no I didn't. Horror is just my third choice. I am still figuring him out, but i am pretty sure kdub is scum

...
This is such a blatant contradiction that I'm not even sure whether to call it scummy or VI play. Also, you didn't even give reasons for suspecting mongoose, who you are suddenly eager to hammer. How about you give those reasons that you said you gave but actually didn't?

Still not seeing mongoose as scummy. Unhelpful perhaps, but I don't like the wagon on him because a lot of the votes on him have looked opportunistic. CT's initial vote on him has been brought up already, and inHim has contributed almost nothing all game until his last post against mongoose. I'm sticking with those two as my top suspects, though to be fair, CT's recent posts have been better with the explanations, but that could be a response to the negative attention he got for his initial vote. Last suspect would probably be drmyshotty for the above quotes. I don't particularly like Mari's reaction to my post about her and jim, but I doubt there are four scum, so she's on the bubble.

[Kdub]

VOTE: Coach Travis
He was trying to get some pressure off drmyshotty in 208, as Anti has pointed out. He implies he was not getting a scum read on shotty in this post, then in 219 when shotty is at L-1, shotty is suddenly on his suspect list. Looks like a late bus attempt to me.

Still not really seeing the mongoose case. His shotty vote could be a late bus, but it's not nearly as blantant as CT's flip-flop.

[Kdub]

What happens if multiple TEs try to use points on the same night?

I am still suspicious of CT based on interactions with shotty, but if we are going to let him live to prove his role, I could get behind an inHim lynch.

[Kdub]

^
Explain please? How does that implicate mongoose?

[Kdub]

Ah I see, didn't immediately think of it that way. At the time I thought it implicated shotty more than anything. Going to think about it and possibly reconsider my opinion on mongoose. I still have bad feelings about inHim and CT, but it can't be all three of them.

[Kdub]

im pretty confident that Kdub is the third. mongoose & shotty were from my original. and raj's pick three gets 2 out of three.

just look at how hes been pushing inhim all day and not mongoose at all.

Hey, I'll admit that I'm not sold on mongoose as scum, and I'm sticking by that. If I'm wrong, I'll deal with it then.

So are we in agreement to let CT try to prove himself tonight?

[Kdub]

If CT is telling the truth, I am fine with being investigated tonight if I am wrong about mongoose.

Since we are not lynching CT today, I'll switch to my second suspect.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: inHim

[Kdub]

Why are you voting inHim? The only reason I see is because he declared Raj town. That seems pretty weak at this point in the game.

I've made it pretty clear before that CT and inHim were my top two suspects and have been for a while. It's not like I'm suddenly voting him for a new reason except that we seem to have decided to give CT a chance to prove himself. inHim has contributed almost nothing all game.

This talk of me+mongoose as scum is understandable, but I've been up front with my doubts about mongoose as scum. I hope I'm wrong and that if we lynch him, he actually is scum. If CT is telling the truth, hopefully he can clear me tonight in that case. I still would prefer an inHim lynch today though.

[Kdub]

Hes trying to buddy up to me because he knows I'm not scum, and when I get lynched he will look like a smart townie. I'm still not sure why I am being lynched. Because I pointed out that inhim was scummy?

My opinion on you has been consistent since mid-D1. Stop outguessing yourself.

[Kdub]

Fence-sitting at its finest right there.

Do you even know what fence-sitting is? Because the part you quoted definitely isn't it.

[Kdub]

I'm down for an inHim lynch today. Mari and raj seem like possible buddies.

VOTE: inHim

[Kdub]

inHim:
Scumlist with reasons, now please.

Looking at horrordude's iso, I agree that something doesn't feel right. There's a lot of half-hearted questioning (usually one-liners) but very few firm stances. I'd like him to share his opinions on people as well. Still, his lack of contribution can at least be partially excused due to V/LA and internet problems. inHim doesn't have the same excuse, as far as I know.

My suspicions of raj and Mari are mainly based on interactions with inHim yesterday, but I admit those are secondary choices at this point.

[Kdub]

Back back back. Comcast was stupid. Catching up.

Eagerly waiting for this...

/seconded

/thirded

[Kdub]

inHim:
Interesting how you suddenly come up with a case against horror (the vote leader) when you have not suspected him all game. You've been late on every single wagon, and have just been following other people. If horror is town, you are definitely scum.

Regarding the QB claiming idea, I think it's only a good idea if it prevents a mislynch. If the QB knows for a fact that horror is town and can clear him, I think it's worth it to come out with that info. It gives us two clears, which narrows the pool of possible scum, and forces the scum to target specific players at night rather than who they might otherwise want to kill off. Of course, if the QB doesn't have info in horror, then they should remain hidden.

[Kdub]

If I am the QB, I did not pass to horror on N1.

[Kdub]

No response to 406 or 407, inHim?

[Kdub]

VOTE: inHim

I'm pretty sure this is the right play today.

[Kdub]

From my understanding of the role PMs, it's possible the QB threw directly to scum last night, or threw to someone else who was not a WR and a cornerback also targeted them. I don't get the sense from the wording that an interception attempt would fail if the targeted player isn't a WR.

[Kdub]

Yeah I agree with no mass claim for now, pending inHim's claim.

[Kdub]

I don't think it's necessary to mass claim unless somebody can clear inHim, and based on the reactions we've seen so far, it doesn't look like that is the case.

Regarding the no lynch plan, I think raj's post covers most of it. I think between #2 (lynch) and #3 (no lynch), the outcomes look fairly equal. I would like to point out though, that if inHim is scum (and I think he is), he is potentially a cornerback who could interfere with QB results tonight if we let him live. The fact that inHim was the one to bring up no lynch in the first place does nothing to make me feel better about this possibility. So I would prefer to just lynch inHim today.

If we lynch inHim and he is scum, I think there is some merit to not lynching tomorrow to get the town off evens, but I'd have to think about it.

However, I'll UNVOTE: so we can talk about it some more.

Mari, it seems like you really don't want to suspect inHim in this game. Why me+jim all of a sudden?

[Kdub]

The main reason I've suspected inHim is his lack of contributions the first couple days (just check his iso), plus the fact that he pushed the mongoose and horror lynches fairly strongly and is now pushing for my lynch. His shotty vote looks like a late bus because he had been focused on mongoose the whole time, but suddenly switched when shotty had gotten to L-2 even though he hadn't said anything about him previously.

Wagon analysis is somewhat unhelpful at the moment, but we should revisit it tomorrow when we have more flips.

jim, what is your opinion on no lynch today? It sounds like raj and I are against it, while inHim, Mari, and Locke are for it. jim is the swing vote here.

[Kdub]

Mari:
jim's contributions haven't been stellar either, but with him, I get more of an under-the-radar feel, whereas with inHim, I get more of an active lurking feel. I should point out that I have played two previous games with inHim: Square-Enix Mafia I and III. In SE1, he was town and was far more involved in scumhunting and actively participating. In SE3, he was scum and was just following the leading wagons and was much less active. You can check out both games if you like. I've never played with jim before, so I don't know how typical his behavior in this game is.

So we're stuck it seems. 3 want no lynch, 3 want an inHim lynch. I'm still not convinced that no lynch actually gains us anything. Even though it potentially gives the QB another night to pass, it also gives scum an extra opportunity to get lucky and either hit the QB or someone that the QB can confirm. raj listed the possibilities earlier, can people actually crunch the numbers and see if the risk is worth it?

[Kdub]

If Mari or Locke is scum, they

must

be partners with inHim. If inHim was town, they would have just hammered. The fact that Locke declared Mari town in his most recent post (even though I'm not convinced her shotty vote actually clears her) while saying he suspects inHim looks very good for him IMO. If he and inHim were scum together and he is planning to bus inHim, he has every reason to tie inHim+Mari together as a scum pair. He did not do that, which makes me think he's probably town.

Mari:
I'm not sure you can say inHim isn't scum with me/jim/raj just because you think scum wouldn't bus. I think he was clearly the #2 suspect behind horror yesterday, the fact that he got a quick wagon today was just an extension of that.

As I asked, are you so convinced that inHim is scum that you are willing to risk the game? You know him better than any of us. If you say yes, I say we take out either inHim or kdub.

Not lynching today just shifts the risk to tomorrow, when we might have either more or less information. We will have to risk the game on a lynch at some point, and I still don't see why it's better to do so tomorrow than today.

Preview edit: raj echoed my sentiments

[Kdub]

The RB claim doesn't convince me, but it does make inHim potentially confirmable. I'm going to consider some scenarios and post some more thoughts later.

And no, the QB should not claim just yet.

[Kdub]

Ugh,

nobody else claim yet

, please.

I've thought about about the no lynch possibility to see if we can confirm people now that we have some more claims. How's this: IF the QB can clear someone right now, they claim their results and decide the order in which the other unclaimed players claim as well. If the QB cannot clear anybody right now, nobody else claims today and we either lynch inHim or no lynch. This gives the QB another shot tonight to potentially confirm someone. If the QB gets info at night, they come out tomorrow with their info. If not, we either lynch inHim or no lynch (whichever we didn't do today) and give the QB another night. This will eventually get the town off evens and maximize the number of opportunities for the QB. If the QB dies at night, we haven't lost any useful information (otherwise they would have claimed and cleared someone).

I think people should say the following if true:
If I am the QB, I cannot clear any living players right now.

Preview edit: raj, before you claim, what do you think of my plan?

[Kdub]

Really? If anything, I think scum would be the ones wanting to out the QB at this point. Also, my plan does allow for "shit to come out", but if that shit isn't valuable at the moment, we give the QB another shot. What's the problem?

[Kdub]

What a compelling argument.

[Kdub]

So what's the deal? I thought only Mari and raj were in favor of a mass claim and inHim/Locke haven't given an opinion on it yet. We should probably figure this out within the next day roughly so that we have time to process any claims and get a lynch together. I'd also like to hear Locke's opinion on the current situation before we do anything.

[Kdub]

What is your opinion regarding mass claim?

[Kdub]

jim: I'm thinking raj, but I can't be certain. A lot would depend on who else I knew was scum and what the other scum role was.

Alright, if we're mass claiming, then the QB goes first and also decides which order the rest of us claim.

Also, if you are not the QB, then say so. That way, we don't have to wait for a counterclaim after the QB posts.

I am not the QB.

[Kdub]

The only people who haven't claimed are me, raj, and Locke. jim, pick the order we claim in.

There's pretty much no scenario I can see where inHim is not today's lynch, so I'll just put my vote down now.

VOTE: inHim

[Kdub]

Actually Locke still has the opportunity to counterclaim. I guess that could make us lynch elsewhere if he does.

UNVOTE:

[Kdub]

I'm an Offensive Guard.

[Kdub]

VOTE: inHim

[Kdub]

My initial thought after yesterday was that Mari was most likely to be inHim's buddy. She defended him early in the day and tried to paint me+jim as the scum team, then switched to inHim late in the day, but in light of raj's claim, she is in fact confirmed town. I remember I thought Locke looked town mainly because of post 494, but admittedly that's really the only reason. He's kinda been off my radar other than that. raj+inHim is possible due to possible buddying early in the game, but raj was pretty quick to jump on inHim yesterday, and I feel his play since then has been very reasonable.

Going to do some vote analysis later and reread raj and Locke a bit.

Locke, what are your thoughts on the rest of the players at the moment?

[Kdub]

Raj is confirmed town if charter confirms that the offence gained 100 yards last night, which, from my understanding of the rules, is the only way offence could have scored last night. If that's true, you're scum.

Actually, I didn't even think about this properly. We gained 50 yards on N2, but N3 the scum scored. Does that reset the yardage count? If so, then raj is confirmed town and you are scum by process of elimination. If not, then it is still possible that jim handed off or threw to Mari to score last night, and raj is still a possibility. We need clarification from the mod here.

[Kdub]

Sorry Locke, tough luck.

VOTE: Locke

[Kdub]

Well, that wasn't how we drew up the gameplan but it worked out I suppose. Since we knew the makeup of our scum powers, I suspected that there was no FB or second TE in the game due to balance reasons. I was actually thinking raj was the QB after Anti flipped and didn't suspect jim until raj started dropping hints that he wasn't the QB. I actually don't know how we scored points on N3 when jim threw to inHim because I tried to intercept Mari that night. Me bussing inHim just kinda happened because nobody else other than Anti really suspected him early in the game, so I figured I could just vote him and not really worry about getting him lynched since mongoose and horror were more suspicious to the town, but still get town credit later if he died. Losing the LB on D1 was a tough break for us, but we probably got lucky that the D2 wagon ended up being on the TE, which forced Travis to claim. If somebody else had been the TE instead, we probably would have lost.