Trouble in Minas Tirith! Game over!

[ages]

/confirm

[ages]

yeah flying dutchmen, without saying a reason why you suspect them you look suspicous (to me at least)

[ages]

FOS: Zoneace

I know that my role had quite a lot of detail about my character, so come on give us a name and any background that Macros gave you.

[ages]

This is what I found about Zonaces supposed role on the encyclopedia of Arda:

The son of Éomund of Eastfold and Théodwyn, the sister of King Théoden. While still a young man of just twenty-six, Éomer the King's nephew was made Third Marshal of Riddermark, and took command of the Riders of Eastfold. The days of his youth were harsh ones for Rohan; its people were imperilled by Orcs out of the north, while a certain Gríma son of Gálmód, later found to be a spy of Saruman, gained influence over the King.

On 25 February III 3019, Rohan suffered its greatest blow to date; at a skirmish that would become known as the First Battle of the Fords of Isen, Théoden's son and heir Théodred was slain by Saruman's forces, leaving Éomer - who was not at the battle - as the natural heir to Rohan's throne. It was five days later that the tide began to turn in Rohan's favour, when Éomer came across three strangers travelling through the fields of the Mark. These strangers were Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli, and from Éomer's wise decision to aid these three came Rohan's ultimate victory.

Because of this, some days later, Gandalf came to Edoras and healed the King of his malaise. The Rohirrim went to war, and though they were defeated at the Second Battle of the Fords of Isen, they held their own at the Battle of the Hornburg and, with the aid of the Ents of Fangorn Forest, defeated Saruman's armies. Then Éomer rode with his King to the aid of Minas Tirith, where they fought in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. There Théoden met his end, and granted Éomer the Kingship, first of the Third Line of the Kings of Rohan.

At the time of the great victories of that year, Éomer was still just twenty-eight years old. He would rule the Rohirrim for another sixty-five years, through which he maintained a great friendship with Gondor. Such was the plenty and peace of his reign that he was given the surname Éadig, 'Blessed'. He was succeeded by his son Elfwine.

From http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/e/eomer.html


I'm not quite sure what to make of it yet, indeed it may not be the eomer of which Zoneace speaks, but the character does seem good, although more than your regular townie.

I'll read it again and post more later.

[ages]

ZONEACE - Care to comment on whether the info I found matches your role description?

[ages]

Ok, Thanks for confirming that

[ages]

Just because I haven't posted in three days doesn't mean I don't check the thread, it just means I have nothing to say.

Its holidays, I have family over, so don't expect me online as much as I used to be.

Leo does seem suspicious for the reason that Bob outlined, but I don't know if its enough for a vote, after all, I don't think we know whether all those docs were competent, i.e one of them might kill whoever he protets, making him little use for the town.

[ages]

Im not going to vote Riven, as he/she has seven votes, and I would like top hear what he/she has to say, but this is just to let everyone know that I agree with the reasoning behind the suspicion of Riven and would vote if i'd got here earlier.

[ages]

As I see it, the two points of discussion left for this day are Riven and Leo's role claims, and and who to lynch, although this really depends on what we decide about their claims.

[ages]

(See day one votes. Zoneace has two votes on him. Mr Gnome it all tries to create an alternative by voting Flying Dutchman, I think).

Just reviewed the day one voting. I see what you mean, but then FD was acting quite suspicious by fosing people without saying why and revealing where the game was set. I agree that Gnome was suspicious, but I don't think its enough to cast a vote on, more just something to bear in mind in the future.

[ages]

As far as I understand it, all the suspicion on gia is because of his vote to possibly divert attention from Zoneace on day 1. I'm not convinced about this, but I decided to look over all his posts and have a think about him.

Well, if this is all true, then there must have been a chain of night abilities involving all four of those people FD named, starting with one or more of them targeting Zoneace.

Although, I must admit, I'm still unsure about Zoneace, I've decided I'm going to set my sights on Tigris, until he comes forward with something!

Vote Tigris

This post could possibly link him to Zoneace, in that he says hes unsure about zoneaces claim, but then votes for someone who hasn't said anything. On the other hand, he doesn't exactly defend zoneace, but then maybe it was just him trying to not appear to be on the same side as him. So many possibilities!

Well, this is probably going to earn me the title of stupidest idea/post in the game; but I'm just trying to figure out Zoneace's claims!

Maybe, Zoneace didn't have a night ability and instead his going through the gate was the result of a scum group recruiting him as some kind of traitor?

I think it's already been suggested that there might be 2 groups of scum! And if thats the case, one group could have killed, one recruited, serial killer killed, and the vigilante, maybe, WAS dumb enough to kill night one!

I told you it was a stupid theory! But in any case, it's a theory!

Stupid ideas aside, I'm just having trouble buying his story, so I've decided to Unvote Tigris and Vote Zoneace

At this point I think zoneace had 8 votes on him, needing 10 for a lynch, so it was a pretty sure bet he was going to get lynched. This means that him voting for zoneace could have been another attempt to not seem to be on the same side as him, knowing the vote would do no harm because zone was as good as dead anyway. He also comes up with quite a crazy story to try and explain why zoneace was seen going through the gate without a night choice because it relies on zoneace being recruited and taken through a gate without knowing and it relies on a vig killing night one, which as far as I am concerned is very unlikely. But then if gia was trying to not seem to be with zone, why post a sort of defence of him? Maybe gia is just a townie who was trying to find anyway that zone was telling the truth to reduce the chance of us getting a bad lynch.

In conclusion I think either:

He's scum with zoneace, and tries to not look to be on the same side as him

OR

He's a perfectly inocent pro town role who was just exploring the possibilities.

So to be honest, I didn't really conclude anything definite, and I wouldn't want to lynch on such an unsure argument, but then if nothing else happens this day maybe we should push for a role claim.

[ages]

As far as I understand it, Werebear died, but then replaced banana bob, so is in the game again.

Also I'm wondering if the absence of a no lynch option suggests that there is some kind of mechanic in play where by if the town never lynched they would win?

[ages]

100% Unofficial Vote Count
*************************************************
3 Pheobus (Werebear, Dragon Slayer, Coolbot)
1 Mr Gnome it all (Leonidas)
1 Riven (Mr gnome)
1 Tigris (Mathcam)
*************************************************

I now believe Pheobus to be innocent as he/she has claimed a reasonably major character, which would be a huge risk for scum.

If the rest of the town agrees with me that Phoebus is innocent, then we need Werebear, Dragon Slayer and Coolbot unvoting asap or Phoebus will get deadline lynched. The other alternative is to find somebody suspicious and put more than three votes on them, but you know, I don't see anyone who is really suspicious. I see a few possible clues here and there, but nothing worth lynching on. Now I know no lynch isn't "officially" an option, but what if noone has any votes, that should work unless Macros randomly lynches someone.

MOD:

What if at deadline several people have votes on them but the votes are tied, or if noone has any votes?

[ages]

Often, they all get lynched, which because we have no strong suspicions, is definitely the worst-case scenario.

If that happened it would be a disaster. We need Macros to confirm what the rules are, but if its heading that way, and that rule is true then we are just going to have to pick someone and put votes on them.

[ages]

What we really need to make sure is that there isn't a tie, as lynching several people with no real suspicions would be risky.

Heres a crazy idea. Why don't we engineer it so that everyone apart from one confirmed innocent (probably Flying Dutchman) has one vote on them. then everyone apart from Flying Dutchmen will get lynched, and the town will win because the only remaining player will be a townie.

NOTE: This is a crazy idea and I don't really think we should attempt it.

[ages]

No, I didn't really think it would doable and it would also spoil quite a nice setup

[ages]

Intrigued by why Mathcam was voting Tigris, I had another read through the thread, concentrating on what Tigris said. I can see now why Mathcam is voting for Tigris, as there is some suspicious behaviour. Below are the things I found:

A bit eager to deflect suspicion from Zoneace

No, I am not scum and find the argument that because 4 people entered one of the possible ways into an area that one must have killed the one that died. There are other ways into that area and the stone did not necessarily come from that area. So I find that particular argument to be crap logic as it ignores other possibilities.

1) It came from somewhere else. It's not like pillars can't be thrown from one area to another with a catapult or something along those lines. In fact, unless we have an Ent randomly crushing people with them, I can't think of a way in which someone would throw a pillar at someone.

2) There are 7 gates, he was on the sixth. That means there are at least two ways into the area he is talking about. Additionally, does the information give direction of traffic? No, it doesn't so how do we know that DP and any of the three were even in the same area? We don't. Do we know when people went through? No, so if DP went through the gate in the opposite way from Thoth for example, they wouldn't even be in the same area at time of death.

This was Tigris arguing that DP didn't have to be killed by someone in the same area or that you had to go through a particular gate to be in a particular area. It is actually a valid point, but Tigris does seem a bit eager to deflect suspicion from Zoneace.

Tigris also kept his "random" vote on orbiting, long after everyone was voting for one of the three that FD named as being in the same area as DP.

1 Orbiting (Tigris)

This good be Tigris not wanting to vote for Zoneace, and #I find it very odd that Tigris kept a random vote on someone long after good information had been revealed and lots had been said.

Tigris again tries to stop the lynch of Zoneace

Only one left to lynch, let's be careful here. There is likely still more to discuss.

To be honest, at this point in the game there really didn't seem to be any reason not to lynch Zoneace, yet again Tigris is trying to slow down the lynch.

Again avoids voting Zoneace

*shrug* I couldn't come up with more to discuss (hence how short that post was compared to others I have made recently), but thought others might. If not I have enough suspicions of ZA to lynch him. I just didn't/don't want anyone else to 'accidently' lynch him or for anyone to say that I killed discussion by voting to lynch him.

fos: ZA, which will turn into a vote later on, 16 hours maybe? Depends on when I get back tonight/tomorrow.

Says he/she has suspicions of Zoneace, yet in the rest of the thread was really quite defensive towards him. Also avoids voting for him, although does do a FOS.

Tries to stop people using FD's results:

Secondly, I said it before and I will say it again, there is very little that can be made of the gate observations, imo. Since they do not (to my knowledge) include timing or direction, they can't be used for much. The only exception is if by some quirk all the evil characters are outside of the primary gate and they must enter each night, which is unlikely imo.

I'm not too sure about the usefulness of FD's night 2 results, but the fact is that FD's Night 1 results let the town bag a scum. Surely that means that they are/can be useful.


I must admit I do know find Tigris quite suspicious

but

with deadline looming I don't really want to lynch someone without giving them a chance for a defense. I'll

FOS: Tigris

for now, and will check the thread again before the deadline (hopefully) and if we are still in the situation where by lots of people have single votes, but noone has more than one, then I might put what will be the second vote on Tigris, to stop the mass lynch of innocents.

[ages]

Rest assured i'm not about to vote for you Tigris as the deadline has now been extended. I'd rather hear what the rest of the town has to say before deciding whether or not you are vote worthy.

[ages]

<not very well thought through semi idea>

How do the mafia communicate at night? Obviously by pm, but thats not what I mean, How do they communicate in the game world? I always assumed they phoned each other, but there aren't any phones in LOTR. What if, mafia had to go to the same place at night to communicate with each other. This would make FDs role have more use.

My pet theory then is that ZONEACE, Tigris and Thoth are scum together, and were all in the same place to communicate the first night. We know ZONEACE was scum, and i've already outlined my suspicions of Tigris, but unofortunatly for me, Thoth seems squeaky clean and seems very unlikely to be scum with ZONEACE.

</not very well thought through semi idea>

[ages]

100% Unofficial Vote Count
*************************************
1 Tigris (Mathcam)
3 ages (Tigris, bigben, Mathcam)
3 Bigben (Flying Dutchman, Coolbot, Thoth)

***************************************

My vote count disagrees with yours Thoth, probably because posts were made while you were typing. I know i'm innocent, and whether ben is or not it would be sensible to save myself so i'll

vote bigben

I'll post some arguements in a minute, I just want to get my vote in before deadline

[ages]

Now that I know my votes in i'll post some more. First thing i'm not 100% convinced that ben is mafia, but the situation as I saw it when I just voted was that as it stood me and bigben were going to get lynched at deadline. I know i'm innocent, so whether ben is or not it makes sense to save myself. I might be around before deadline to unvote if somebody else seems suspicious.

Now some responses to Tigris:

It would also completely unbalance the game.

Would it really? It requires the town to a) think that maybe they do have to go to the same place b) Have some evidence that one of the group was scum c) The gateguard would have to reveal his or her results.

Also if I remember correctly, you were saying how there would be two entrances to an area, so to get to a particular area you didn't have to go through a particular gate. With only one gate guard there would be no way for the town to watch two entrances to an area.

There are three killing groups+. Let's assume 1 sk and two mafias. Now then, if Thoth, ZA, Fishbulb, and I were all in a mafia, the other mafia would likely have 4 as well to balance the game more properly. That would mean that out of 22 players, 9 are evil, which is highly unlikely.

I said that Thoth didn't seem at all scummy to me. Yes my idea does have holes, but the game was at a standstill and it needed something to get it going so I decided to post what I had been thinking. I agree with your analysis that 9 would be a large number of evil players, I hadn't thought of that at the time.

First, you tell him to give more information as your role received more then he initially provided.

By this stage he hadn't even given a name. I wasn't going to let him leave his claim at that, for a start its very hard to argue with a claim that has no ability and no name.

Then you proceeded to find a description of the role in Encyclopedia of Arda.

I looked in the encyclopedia, and it seemed very unlikely that Eomer would be a plain townie. I wanted to make sure that Zoneace agreed that he was the same Eomer, as I wasn't familliar with the character from the books (Its a long time since I read them).

Oh and need I really say that you didn't vote for zoneace

I'll take your word for it that I didn't vote for him. I don't like voting before i'm sure about someones guilt, and if I remember correctly, by the time I was convinced of his guilt he was lynched (timezones and holidays and all that).

especially since if they did then FD would have seen Fishbulb under the gate on night one as well, now wouldn't he?

You yourself said there was two ways into each area, but I will say it again, it was a half thought out idea that I posted to try and get the game going.

attacking mgia for being the ninth vote for zoneace as an attempt to disassociate himself from za

If I remember correctly I said that that was a possibility and that I said at the end of my post that I really didn't know what to conclude about mgia, I certainly did not conclude that he was certainly scum.

The plan earlier was complete junk imo, if everyone voted for one other person, then logically a mafia would vote for another mafia member, . . . and then 5 seconds before deadline unvote. That would leave one pro-town and one mafia, mafia win.

It wasn't a serious plan, it was a bit of fun. If I didn't make that clear in my post, I apoligise. Do you really think we would have got everyone active before the deadline for it to work anyway?

I'll repeat this again. I'll unvote big ben before the deadline if it doesn't mean that i'll get lynched or if he claims a pro town role that in my opinion is stronger and more useful to the town than mine.

[ages]

You posted while I was typing, but yes, I agree with your vote count Thoth.

[ages]

psst, Mathcam, you were voting for me.

100% Unofficial Vote Count
*************************************************
bigbenwd: 5(Flying Dutchman, Coolbot, Thoth, Ages, Mathcam)
Ages: 2 (Tigris, bigben)
************************************************
Based on that i'll

unvote Bigben

. I'm by no means convinced hes scum, and it seems the danger of us both getting lynched has passed.

New 100% Unofficial Vote Count
*************************************************
bigbenwd: 4(Flying Dutchman, Coolbot, Thoth, Mathcam)
Ages: 2 (Tigris, bigben)
************************************************

[ages]

Tigris - Its alright

[ages]

i investigated ZA the 1st night

Bigben, why did you investigate ZA night 1, I would have thought it would have been more sensible to investigate an experienced player...

And as far as the leo thing goes, those quotes are pretty damming, so i'll

FOS: Bigben

[ages]

You really seem to have it in for me mathcam. Dragon Slayer is the first one to FOS: Ben after his role claim, yet you vote for me, why?

I wasn't aware that him and ZONEACE were at odds in other threads, I don't follow every thread in the entire forum! But i'll assume what you said is true and

unFOS: Bigben.

I'm not really sure whats going on with the deadline at the moment, whether we have one or not all I can say is that if you want to lynch a guilty i'm not the person to vote for.

[ages]

I suggest a bandwagon on Orbiting, who hasn't posted in this thread since the 8th (page 11), but posted in an other thread on the 14th. Theres nothing in the limited access thread about an absence.

Vote: Orbiting

[ages]

*waits for orbiting*

[ages]

Maybe orbiting needs replacing?

[ages]

Orbiting did lurk, as well as just go inactive, he posted in a different thread 6 days after he last posted here. I would say this was quite suspicious, ao I will keep my vote on Corsato for now. To be honest I have no idea whether Corsato really is scum, but its the best we have to go on.

[ages]

unvote: Corsato

Thats enough to convince me of your innocence. Out of interest, did you get Orbiting's results from past nights when you replaced.

[ages]

pah, fine, no lynch is an option if you really want it.

It seems like we would want it, but then I wonder if Macros witheld the option from us for our benefit. maybe theres things we don't know that mean we have to kill tonight?

Anyway, for now

vote:No Lynch

[ages]

I was suggesting a no lynch, because all we are managing to do at the moment is force what are apparently strong pro town roles into the open. We try bandwagon after bandwagon, but all we seem to get at the end is a forced claim by a roel that we would seem to not want to lose.

[ages]

bigbenwd - care to explain why that looks "pretty darn scummy"?

To me no lynch still seems to be the best plan, I mean (apart from bandwagonning me which you wouldn't have done had I not voted no lynch) what do you think the town should do? This day can't last forever!

[ages]

and make up that role we dont want to lose

Do we want to pull all our investigative roles into the open so that the mafia can pick them off? Do we want to pull all our docs out into the open so the mafia can pick them off? Thats all this bandwagonning seems to be doing!

[ages]

What

really

gets me is that earlier on in the day, certain players suggested no lynch, yet nobody said that it was suspicious.

I quote from Phoebus earlier in the day:

I'd suggest a no lynch at this time too with everyone being so undecided.

Why, If my vote for a no lynch is so suspicious, wasn't Phoebus suspicious when he suggested a no lynch earlier in the day?

I quote from Flyign Dutchman, again earlier in the day:

The only way to get a No Lynch is to have nobody voting at the deadline.....

Unvote if/who I was voting

This shows at this time Flying Dutchman wanted to end the day on a no lynch, and in my opinion, and I'm sure most of you would agree, he's the most confirmed innocent that we have got. So wanting a no lynch isn't necessarily mafia behaviour!

Earlier on in the day mathcam states as well as I can, the advantages of a no lynch:

Well, without any strong leads, we could consider not lynching. Are we really going to gain anything by bandwagonning someone until they role claim? I would think that because of the intricacies in the game (namely, that it seems like there were several very new and ocmplicated roles), we might be better off to let our pro-town roles do their jobs for another night. I realize we'll wake up in the morning with another dead or two, but note that this is better than waking up with another dead or two and having lynched a townie the day before.

When I voted for a no lynch, I did express concerns that it may not be in our favor to do so:

It seems like we would want it, but then I wonder if Macros witheld the option from us for our benefit. maybe theres things we don't know that mean we have to kill tonight?

And finally Corsato makes the same point that I am trying to:

Bah, no lynches are not a good thing, but neither is bandwagoning every single townie and forcing them into the open.

We can't keep revealing to the mafia strong pro town roles. I still stand by my statement that the correct thing for the town to do is to tend this day with a no lynch, as dragging out this day with bandwagons left, right and center is harming only ourselves.

[ages]

I was just trying to figure out how good each sides chances are right now. If we continue the way we have been today, we're probably going to find ourselves lynching someone we really don't want to.

So why not no lynch?

[ages]

Its just the way you started your post with:

Well, I don't like the idea of No Lynch.

Although I understand you now, you were sort of posting your thoughts as you had them, sorry about that.

[ages]

Although I support your stance on no lynch mathcam, I would be interested in knowing exactly why you are voting for me i.e what have i done that is suspicious. Then hopefully I can defend myself better

[ages]

I am suspicious of ages in part for stretching really hard to make Tigris seem suspicious after my initial posting of this suspicion.

I take it that by this you mean my long post of things about Tigris.

This post was designed in part to get the game moving and because I was interested in seeing why you (mathcam) were voting for Tigris. I decided to have a good read through the thread and I posted what I came up with to try and help the town find a mafia. Thats all.

[ages]

Don't make Macros give us a deadline.....

[ages]

Corsato - why is no lynch not an option?

[ages]

Mathcam's fear is mine too, as I said in the post were I voted for no lynch, I do wonder why it wasn't an option straight away, but as far as I am concerned it is still the best option.

[ages]

Ummm...ages has more votes than no lynch, I think....

Unfortunatly I think that too....

Look, I am still in favor of a no lynch, but if the town really wants me to claim, i'll claim. I'll say now that i'm not a doc or a cop, but I still have a useful role.

[ages]

I'll say now that i'm not a doc or a cop

That wasn't my claim....

This is my claim:

I am the leader of the Wose. I am a vigilante. I kill at night, and my role implies that I kill with poison arrows. I don't have to kill every night or anything like that. I haven't used my ability yet.

[ages]

I don't seem to have nay followers, but my role does say i'm a leader. It also says (I didn't post this first time because I thought it would be hard not to quote the mod) that I can move quietly, have good eyes and am a good hunter.

[ages]

Look what can I say, I am telling the truth. If you don't believe me, fine, but you will lynch a pro town player. I can't prove that I am what I say I am, unless you let me live till tonight and have somebody investigate me, but then I suspose in your eyes I could be a godfather.

If you want to lynch me, I understand, but you're doing the wrong thing (unless you are scum)

[ages]

Oh and bear in mind that not every role has to be a big name, member of the fellowship. I bet there are other roles out there that aren't big name characters...

[ages]

Its the second one, trust me

[ages]

Sorry for the double post, but why not let me live today and have someone investigate me tonight, that should confirm my innocence to you (especially if we have a cop that can get a role name)

[ages]

I don't see how i'm going to convince you not to lynch me, but you'll find your mistake when I die.

[ages]

If that was the last vote then just to let you know that I was what I said I was.

Go town.