Open 260 - Tit For Tat - Game Over

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

confirm

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

vote: don_johnson

for being the second person to be the second person voting for someone.

VOTE: smashbro_of_the_SSS for not posting yet.

What say you now?!?

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

Are you guys losing it? Why are you not voting for don johnson? Obv scum is obv....vote accordingly.

I should take this as a joke, then? Or are you seriously saying don is scummy already?

^This lady is the most pro-town only behind me.

Also, why did you say this? You were referring to saporovirus making a second rvs vote to make a joke. How does that equal pro-town?


---------------

naaaa, don't care much about the pressure,

the smilies stuff is just a tipical move to end the rvs, which is very much pro-town

. I have seen worse than this, in some other games. At a given point you just need to start provoking one player using a "non-random" argument, no matter how silly. Smilies are just this LoL...
but mallowgeno jumped on it, so from my pov it is totally right to keep voting him.

I haven't seen smilies being used to end rvs, but I don't like how you're saying that since you used smilies, you're pro-town. This doesn't make you scum, but I don't like the way you phrased it.


-------------

As for the case on Consig, I'm still trying to decide between scummy and ... idk, just kinda confused. Genuinely not knowing andrew94 was not in the game seems kinda uunlikely. Wouldn't Consig have noticed that andrew hadn't posted at all yet, or in any subsequent posts? Awaiting reaction...

-------------

However, I'm going with a

vote: mallowgeno

It wasn't the vote so much as the unvote, where he distances himself from agreeing with the wagon by saying "I only voted to humor don." Now that we've had our vocabulary lesson for the Day, who do you think is scummy so far? What's your stance on Consig?

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

Responding to my prod. Just as an FYI, i tend to not post very often, only posting when I really have something to say. I try to make sure it is every couple of days, but unfortunately sometimes it runs over into a prod.

------------------

So, looking back over, I'm not liking Consigliere much anymore, not that I was particularly fond of him. But so far, he has done no scum hunting, and still technically has a vote on Andrew. Yeah. At first it seemed like he had just made a genuine mistake, but now it seems more like he is scum trying to avoid saying anything helpful to the town / anything that could get let other players get a read on him.

unvote, vote: Consigliere

Although I changed my vote just now, I still think Mallowgeno is probably scum. While it is true that he has given an opinion on Consig ("he is town") there is little more we have to judge Mallow on. He hasn't contributed to scumhunting much at all. He's shown that he sometimes votes people when he feels like, such as voting lewatcher to "humor don", and then unvoting. He seems to be very sheepish in this game, following what other players do and saying something in one post, contradicting it in the next. (he says he agrees with don, then in his next post says that he was just humoring don). Seems like scummy play to me. And while typing this, I almost convinced myself to switch back to mallow, but there is no support of it right now, and Consig also seems scummy. However, if anyone decides to vote for mallow, I'll support you.

-----------------

also, on a side note, if powerrox is going to do that little in the game, he should replace out. I'm not confident enough to call him scum because I can't get much of a read from the few lines he's posted, but if he really wants to play, he should start contributing something, or I'm going to vote for him next. Unless he is town who is genuinely not able to post often at all, or care about the game, I'm thinking him to be scum.

i think that's all I have for now, werewolf and Zhero are also people I plan on watching closely due to their play, but Mallow and Consig are definitely my top two, and i'd vote for either.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

I almost convinced myself to switch back to mallow, but there is no support of it right now, and Consig also seems scummy. However, if anyone decides to vote for mallow, I'll support you.

so which do you find more scummy?

Mallow. At the time I switched my vote, it was closer, with Mallow being slightly above Consig. After seeing what Mallow has posted/not posted since, I would have to say Mallow by a bit. To answer your inevitable follow up question of why I switched, there was absolutely no support for a mallow wagon at that point, and since I think both of them are scum, I didn't mind switching the vote. Since the beginning of the game, mallow has only voted twice in RVS, where once was his first post and the second was the whole, voting with don thing, ans subsequent unvote. As I said before, I don't like how he jumped on and off quickly. In addition, he has only given his views when specifically asked, and has done

little

nothing in the way of scumhunting.

Oh. but at least we know he thinks that Consig is town.



I don't know how I feel about Consig replacing out. I'm leaning toward it being scum under too much pressure and not enough interest to try. Aside from the replacing out thought, I still think Consig and whoever replaces in is scum. Consig's sole vote was on someone not even in the game, and after finding that out, did not vote for someone who he actually thought was scummy. So far Consig said he did not have any reads, which is interesting since people had been voting him and therefore were taking stances.


Also, I'm very tempted to vote Powerrox, and without the two above, I would be voting for him. He is lurking, but not active lurking. He's not helping at all, and definitely not posting enough, but he doesn't seem to want to be replaced, because he keeps coming back. Either post something of decent size, or replace. Seriously, if you don't have the time, you shouldn't be playing.






@ lew and don. You mention that you found my switch to Consig opportunistic an scummy. I really don't see how, seeing as I said that I find both scummy and while I did vote to the more popular wagon, it was so that my vote was actually being used where it could be. By no means did I forget Mallow, I even said that I would go back to his wagon if there was support.




finally,

unvote, vote: Mallowgeno

because as I said, you are scummy. I'd happily switch back between either of the two (Consig and mallow) but I would like to see a bit from Consig's replacement too.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

Ok, been prodded. Welcome Admiral, good to have new someone participating. I'm seeing your points on Lew, but in my opinion he still seems more townish to me. I like your points on werewolf, and I'm leaning more and more toward him as scum.

to be honest, i can't think of much else to post right now, so I'll reread the last bit of the game in the morning and comment on more, but i still see mallowgeno as scum, and looking forward to seeing stuff from purple orange

Vote Count

Purple Orange (2) - implosion, werewolf555
werewolf555 (2) - saporovirus, Gonzoooo
Zhero (1) - don_johnson
Gonzoooo (1) - lewarcher82
mallowgeno (1) - smashbro_of_the_SSS
lewarcher82 (1) - ThAdmiral

Not Voting (4) - Purple Orange, Powerrox93, mallowgeno, Zhero

With 12 alive it is 7 to lynch. The deadline is set for the end of November 21st, PST.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

just posting to make sure i avoid a third prod/replacement. I've been busy studying for a midterm, and I have to register for classes at 9:30 tonight, so expect a post either sometime from 5-9 or around 11 or later

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

I like the case on werewolf, and I' definitely seeing him as scum right now. His wording in his posts have seemed a bit off, from voting for Consig to be "economical" and more recently saying (in ISO post #10)

"That is what I believed, and that since consig had more votes, it would be easier to get him lynched because of his previous behavior."

easier to get him lynched?

vote: werewolf

also Werewolf... why claim? you're still three votes away from a lynch.

--------------------------------------------

as for any other cases, I still believe Mallow to be scum, but since he hasn't been around still (where's that catch up post?) I don't mind moving my vote to werewolf.

@ Admiral

you asked why I don't find Lew as scummy. In his posts, he seems to be genuine in his scum hunting, taking a definite stand on people, rather than being hesitant to commit to a read. While your quotes and explanations of what you found scummy make sense, to me they only do if you read it that way. When I read through those posts, I saw it as him legitimately seeing mallow and consig as scummy and was just town explaining himself. Looking over your case and explanations of the quotes, however, does make me see them scummier than my first read. I don't think that he is scum right now, but he is shifting toward a grey area for me. As the game goes on, I'll get a better read of him I'm sure, but for now, he seems to be genuinely trying as town.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

OK, Zhero is a L-2. I'm a bit worried at how fast this has come up. Either it there is at least one scum bussing their partner Zhero, or scum jumped on the wagon of town. At first it didn't seem as bad to me, voting for the lesser wagon, given that werewolf was L-1. However, with the points brought up on the previous page, I'm very strongly believing it to be scum.

@Zhero

if you thought it was bussing, why not mention in your post that you would be willing to hammer werewolf? you completely ignore the werewolf wagon, rather than saying that you support them both, but want the day to continue?

also, for the record, I'm keeping my vote on werewolf atm but I plan on voting Zhero in a day or two. I want everyone to have time to talk about the wagon before putting him at L-1.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

also, for the record, I'm keeping my vote on werewolf atm but I plan on voting Zhero in a day or two. I want everyone to have time to talk about the wagon before putting him at L-1.

talk away. bandwagon analysis makes more sense on day 2. after the flip. your hesitancy is scummy. your reason for hesitancy is scummy. please redeem yourself by placing zhero at L-1. let's get a zhero claim now. then discuss that.

didn't realize that the deadline was that close, sorry.

but no, you're right. why not vote Zhero, a wagon that came up within one page, and the last three votes being votes for him? Of course it would make sense to place him at L-1, where an overeager townie could miss a vote and accidentally lynch before a claim, or where scum could "miss a vote" and "accidentally" lynch before a claim. that would work out well [/sarcasm]



as for the claim, I really don't know what to believe. There isn't much of a way to prove his claim, since it's only Day 1 on a day start game, and as sapo said, it is a bit tricky to deal with a power role claim near deadline. Might be that he's scum trying to pull off another day living. Let him live today, and if he's telling the truth, he'll be dead by morning. Let him live and he's fake claiming, we'll see him back here tomorrow, with some explaining to do. if we lynch him, he may be scum or a power role, so we're basically gambling. Almost want to say let him live, see what happens during the night, so we can go back and analyze his play.

I'd lynch werewolf or Zhero today. I'm beginning to think that Zhero is Mafia Jailkeeper trying to pull off living at least one night. werewolf has acted scummy and also jumped on the Zhero wagon quickly. Either one is probably scum, and so I could go for either. I'll keep my vote on werewolf at the moment, but if nothing much changes by Friday, 11:59, I'll switch over to Zhero.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

besides, I want to know why smash thinks Zhero is JK and not a simple nilla - always assuming he is scum.

Role Cop and Vigilante are the two town power roles, and so if he is scum, he could be claiming to drag a power down with him, or he could be trying to preserve some of the mafia's power. Mafia have a jailkeeper as their power, so it seemed to make sense that he might be trying to help his team for one more night.



Looks like it's lynch though, so at least werewolf is dying. With any luck Zhero did false claim, and we have scum caught tomorrow, and still a powerrole.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

OK, Zhero is a L-2. I'm a bit worried at how fast this has come up. Either it there is at least one scum bussing their partner Zhero, or scum jumped on the wagon of town. At first it didn't seem as bad to me, voting for the lesser wagon, given that werewolf was L-1. However, with the points brought up on the previous page, I'm very strongly believing it to be scum.

I would like you to explain this.

Yeah, kind of a "blargh im going to write every thought going through my head post."

So, first off, worry about the Zhero wagon. In my opinion, his wagon in the first place sprouted up way too quickly, so I was speculating that it could have been a wagon on town, which scum had jumped on quickly, or if Zhero was scum, one member of the scum team jumped on to gain town cred, knowing that Zhero scum would claim a power role and not be lynched. Now that it turns out he was town, I definitely believe that at least one scum jumped on that wagon quickly, and likely stayed on it, hoping to lynch the power role anyway.



From the sentence that begins "At first it..." was my ideas on Zhero himself. Originally, I had understood his reasoning for not voting werewolf and causing the lynch, but now that people had written out the case against him, I started to believe that he was scum.

Does this clarify things?


----------------------


also, I still think that mallow is scummiest, but i have yet to do a reread for my other candidates for mafia. Will try to post later today, but im not sure i'll have time, might as well

v/la till sunday

for the holidays and such.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

sorry guys, had a busy weekend. will post later today.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

Now that it turns out he was town, I definitely believe that at least one scum jumped on that wagon quickly, and likely stayed on it, hoping to lynch the power role anyway.

Who do you think this might have been then?

My two main suspects from the wagon were don and werewolf. Lew could also be thrown in, but he has seemed more town to me than scum. Werewolf was interested in self preservation, and now that he's flipped town, it obviously wasn't him. don has seemed to join many popular wagons, without much of an explanation of "i agree with the voter above me." I could definitely see him as scum trying to look townish.


As for why I hadn't started to look through the wagon, was just because I'd had little time. I've been focusing on NaNoWriMo, considering that it's near the end of the November, and I want to finish.

Thank you. I now had a closer look at smash's switch (#198). Interesting timing.

At the time, only one other person had their vote on mallow, and I felt that my vote would be better used to pressure werewolf / still concentrate on one of my scum reads. When I say one, I mean the vote from PurpleOrange, although DJ had a vote on mallow also. DJ's votes go around so much, and with little justification that I tend to not put much stock in them.



--------------------------


now, as for the mallow wagon.

vote: mallowgeno

As for the case:



--- mallow follows DJ's vote, first saying that he agreed with DJ, and then taking it back, saying his vote was to humor him. I don't like the inconsistency, and backing down when people began to disagree with the vote and its seriousness.

--- his next few posts consist of saying that he thinks Consig is town, and not knowing about anyone else, despite having a bit of information to form opinions on. He buddies up with gonzoo in the post before, and agrees that Consig seems to be town, which seems to be as trying to get on the town's good side while providing little.

--- his next post asks if it was a lynch on consig, which I just find odd.

--- for a few pages, he says nothing, and when asked about explaining about Lew, he says:

When did I question your votes mallow? I only questioned your vote on me, which was first made without giving any reasons, and I was not the only one to note that. As you gave reasons, I unvoted you and moved on. So I am not sure what are the "votes" you are referring to. Can you please explain?

I was referring to the one time I voted you. I did explain after I voted. Since it was rvs I figured I didn't need to explain.

--- when he votes werewolf (putting werewolf to L-1), he gives no reason at all:

Why should he care what Don thought? Was there any reason for him to follow/humor Don over someone else?

Is there a reason why I should/shouldn't follow someone in the RVS? Get over that. As for werewolf, prematurely claiming is quite scummy. Even so, if you are a VT you take it until you are lynched (unless lylo/mylo).

vote werewolf

--- he refuses to give even a cursory read on another player when asked, and still gives no reason for the werewolf vote.

Hmm, I smell a bus.

Vote: mallowgeno

Mallow, what do you think of Lew?

Apparently whatever I say won't be taken seriously, therefore I refuse to answer. (oooo scummy)

--- as to the point above, he later says that Lew "could be town" but he is not 100% sure.

------------
in conclusion, Mallow has been no help to the town at all, and has, at times, voted opportunistically and with no explanation. Scummy actions.



that's all for tonight, but for the record, right now I'm also suspicious of DJ, and slightly of the powerrox/chesskid slot, but I haven't looked into that one much at all. Will have to reread to see what I see.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

vote: smashbro

I can't help but feel that mallow is a bit of a soft target, and that smash's case on him is to deflect attention away from himself.
I could be wrong, but that's what it feels like to me.

I also don't really get why he is not voting for his suspect on the zhero wagon, namely don, when he seems so sure at least one person on it was scum.

dont have much time now, have to go to class, but I've had a scum read on mallow since the beginning, and only switched votes when only one or two people supported it. So I went with a different scum read, werewolf. I'm not voting don because I still believe mallow to be scum, and I have yet to come up with a formal case on don, though I do believe he is scummy.

Vote Count

smashbro_of_the_SSS (3) - lewarcher82, don_johnson, ThAdmiral
mallowgeno (1) - smashbro_of_the_SSS
Purple Orange (1) - implosion

Not Voting (4) - Purple Orange, Gonzoooo, mallowgeno, vollkan

With 9 alive it is 5 to lynch. The deadline is set for the end of December 8th, PST.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

v/la for a day

need to finish NaNoWriMo, will reply to all of you once I've written 5,000 more words.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

its nice to see smash trying, but ultimately his posts are weak. he is still using the events of the rvs to condemn mallow. i don't think mallow's actions at that point in the game were terribly scummy. smash, on the other hand, has been calling players scummy but putting his votes elsewhere. now, when push comes to shove, he's contributing, but nothing of real substance. his vote on mallow could be scum picking on an easy target or scum picking on weaker scum. either way, i think we are back to:

more votes on smash. put him to L-1. get a claim. move on. it shall be done(come on voting block).

mallow has done little to nothing to help this game, and hasn't repalced out until just now. A few other things wrong with this post.

"smash has been calling other players scummy, but putting his votes elsewhere"

finally,

unvote, vote: Mallowgeno

because as I said, you are scummy. I'd happily switch back between either of the two (Consig and mallow) but I would like to see a bit from Consig's replacement too.

I like the case on werewolf, and I' definitely seeing him as scum right now. His wording in his posts have seemed a bit off, from voting for Consig to be "economical" and more recently saying (in ISO post #10)

"That is what I believed, and that since consig had more votes, it would be easier to get him lynched because of his previous behavior."

easier to get him lynched?

vote: werewolf

also Werewolf... why claim? you're still three votes away from a lynch.

--------------------------------------------

as for any other cases, I still believe Mallow to be scum, but since he hasn't been around still (where's that catch up post?) I don't mind moving my vote to werewolf.

I've voted for Consig, werewolf, and mallow. I've always been saying Mallow was scummy, and presented my case for him. when no one agreed, i moved my vote to other scum reads, which i thought would be more productive, while still trying to show why I think mallow is scummy. the above bolded quote is wrong.

"his vote on mallow could be scum picking on an easy target or scum picking on weaker scum"

how can i be scum picking on an easy target when no one else is voting for mallow? picking an easy target would mean going after someone who could be easily lynched, and given that there is little to no support for mallow, I don't agree with this sentence.

Smash, you are voting a player who is waiting for replacement. Does it mean we will have to wait for mallow to be replaced before you do something more?

just because i'm voting a slot which needs a replacement doesn't mean i won't do anything (that being said, sorry for the v/la, needed to write). I still think the slot is scummy, so my vote stays.

Continuing read

111:

Smash+8

. The vote here is terribad. First, it begins with "looking back over" without any explanation as to what changed his mind. Second, he drums up Consig's play to being scum trying to avoid suspicion, and entirely ignores dealing with the prospect that Consig is simply a daft newbie.
226:

Smash+10

. Contradiction. He smears the zhero wagon by saying he thinks it is scum-drive (either bussing or opportunistic). He then proceeds to agree with the reasoning and announces his intention to vote zhero "in a day or two". In short, the wagon is really scummy, but he's going to join it.

Player	Score
don_johnson	55
Purple Orange	50
Gonzoooo	50
lewarcher82	70
mallowgeno	56
ThAdmiral	50
smashbro_of_the_SSS	73
implosion	55

Accordingly,

Vote:Smash

First off, welcome to the game. I can see that you have learned how to pull numbers out of the air and use them to come up with bigger numbers. Bravo.

as for your points. in post #111, I said I thought Consig was town, yes. Just because i didn't type that I considered the idea that he might be newb town doesn't mean i didn't consider it. I just thought that Consig was scum, rather than town. how is this a crime? as for the lack of any reason, i thought that saying that i had reread covered it. I look at the thread, Consig's actions, and the other cases against him. and i agreed.

for the Zhero wagon, I still stand by that the wagon came on too fast, and to me it seemed like there was a scum bussing or scum jumping on a new, popular wagon to look good. Just because the wagon happened too fast for my taste though, did not mean that i disagreed with it. I thought Zhero was scummy, and so i agreed with the wagon then. Call it contradiction, but i can both think that a wagon was scummy for being much too quick, and still agreeing with the case against Zhero.

The Smash wagon

The argument about him voting/tunneling mallow definitely holds weight. As I just said, mallow is an easy target and his slot is likely town. Smash's all-game long tunneling is definitely suspicious, particularly since mallow posted so little.

As for what Smash says about the Zhero wagon - out of the nine living players, 4 were on that wagon. So yes, odds are at least one scum was on that wagon. I doubt that there are more than one scum on it, because I doubt a second scum would make a move onto the wagon after seeing a first do it, as it would likely draw a link between them.

Tunnelling? When I agreed with, and talked about cases on other players, including Zhero, werewolf, Consig, and explaining to the Admiral why I don't agree with his idea that Lew was scum. What you're calling tunneling is how i still hold a scum read on mallow, when it has

only been one day, and one lynch

. I haven't been tunneling, and just because my top read for scum wasn't who was lynched on day 1, doesn't mean I'm tunneling.












more to come later on, going to take a break from the computer for the moment. If I missed any of the case against me, please tell me. Also, look forward to my opinion on Don, and probably one or two other people i find scummy.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

Vote: saporovirus

for now. I need to do some more thinking.

Gonzoooo, I regret to inform you that the person you are voting for is already dead.




also, my attention really isn't here anymore. I'll have to do a reread, but from what I've read just now about Don, he seemed to be fairly helpful at the beginning of the game, but recently began to just throw his vote anywhere. as for other reads, i really don't know yet. will come back to this tomorrow when my head is clearer

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

First off, welcome to the game. I can see that you have learned how to pull numbers out of the air and use them to come up with bigger numbers. Bravo.

You're not the first to take this attitude.

Think about it this way: Most players don't even rank their suspects, and those that do will just have a list of Town: X, Y Z; Scum: A, B, C. It doesn't tell you anything about how much they relatively suspect people, or why.

Everybody gives relative rankings to scumtells - I just try and make it more explicit with numbers.

as for your points. in post #111, I said I thought Consig was town, yes. Just because i didn't type that I considered the idea that he might be newb town doesn't mean i didn't consider it. I just thought that Consig was scum, rather than town. how is this a crime? as for the lack of any reason, i thought that saying that i had reread covered it. I look at the thread, Consig's actions, and the other cases against him. and i agreed.

So up until that point, you had no problem with consig's play - but then, for reason, something struck you as scummy?

for the Zhero wagon, I still stand by that the wagon came on too fast, and to me it seemed like there was a scum bussing or scum jumping on a new, popular wagon to look good. Just because the wagon happened too fast for my taste though, did not mean that i disagreed with it. I thought Zhero was scummy, and so i agreed with the wagon then. Call it contradiction, but i can both think that a wagon was scummy for being much too quick, and still agreeing with the case against Zhero.

This doens't make sense. You accuse it of being too fast, but you yourself stated that you were going to join it.

--- fair enough about the points.
--- until that point, no, i did not think Consig scummy. When i went back over the thread and saw what others had pointed out, I started to believe that Consig was scum. It's a crime to change my mind?
--- I saw it scummy for it to build up as fast as it did, probably with scum trying to look more townlike. I agreed with the reasoning behind, but I usually am suspicious when something happens to fast. leads to "mistaking how many votes there were" and early lynches.

how can i be scum picking on an easy target when no one else is voting for mallow? picking an easy target would mean going after someone who could be easily lynched, and given that there is little to no support for mallow, I don't agree with this sentence.

2 things:
1. Mallow is a lurker and presumably won't be putting up much of a fight, hence a good place to park a vote if you don't want to cause a fuss.
2. You just admitted that you moved your votes to consig and werewolf because a vote on them would be "more productive". Another way to spin that is that you were voting for people "who could easily be lynched", hence picking easy targets by your own logic.

--- in understand what you're saying about parking a vote. However, I genuinely find him to be scummy, so I leave my vote there except when I don't. When I don't, I vote for people who I also think scummy.
--- so yes, I did move my vote to werewolf and consig. If my voted stayed on mallow, forming absolutely no pressure, then my vote is useless. but if i vote for someone else i see that is scummy, i will vote them to see how they act, and how others act towards them.
--- You first say it is scummy for me to leave my vote on someone who will not create a fuss over it. Then you say it is scummy for me to move my vote to other people. What?

@ don

you're right about the comment. after doing a full read of the game, you certainly have not thrown your vote around. I said that because of the way you voted Zhero, merely saying "I could dig that."



--------------------------------

Don

on page 2 votes for lew because of smilies.
on page 4 he returns, but doesn't comment on anything that has happened, only defending his vote by saying

quick response there, powerox. vote about "smilies" really shouldn't be confusing. especially since i explained it thoroughly. what about it "confuses" you?

after the above quote, he removes his vote, as the wagon obviously didn't pick up steam.

i may move to the gonzo wagon. i am going to reread to see if this is necessary. lew's response has been acceptable. powerox: if you don't understand the words i write then there is nothing i can do about it. i can agree to disagree with you.

unvote

he also suggests going to another reason, but says he has to read over the game. sounds innocent, but could be that he wants to test the waters and see who people would agree with a wagon on. at the time there was a 4 person Consig wagon, but it probably would have been scummy to join that wagon so suddenly. something interesting to note is that gonzoo did not have any votes on him at the time.

i could get with a mallow wagon. but i think thad's questions should be answered.

comments like this irk me. He shows that he's willing to go on the mallow wagon, and jumps on the zhero wagon once the case is brought up again, and a second person votes mallow.

i suggest a voting block of dj, thad, lew, and gonzo.

vote: smash

not sure why yet, but i will vote with the above block. they are my current town reads. the rest of you can hang. lew: if you want to switch to mallow you may.

looking back at the block. lew already has a vote on me, and it's obvious that TheAdmiral and Gonzooo also thinks im scummy. Just as votes and ta-da! insta-wagon! just add votes! but on a more serious note, he gets away with a vote on me, saying "he's not sure quite why" and trying to persuade 3 more votes on me. he pretty much wants to say you guys do the work, I'll vote with you.

its nice to see smash trying, but ultimately his posts are weak. he is still using the events of the rvs to condemn mallow. i don't think mallow's actions at that point in the game were terribly scummy. smash, on the other hand, has been calling players scummy but putting his votes elsewhere. now, when push comes to shove, he's contributing, but nothing of real substance. his vote on mallow could be scum picking on an easy target or scum picking on weaker scum. either way, i think we are back to:

more votes on smash. put him to L-1. get a claim. move on. it shall be done(come on voting block).

scum-tastic. i used the unvote from rvs because first mallow says he agrees with you, then unvotes, saying he was just trying to humor you. you said the vote was serious. mallow agrees, therefore his vote is serious. then he takes it back completely. i don't call this rvs

i have been putting my votes on other scummy reads. good for me.

it could be scum picking on an easy target, ok. you could also be scum picking on an easy target, someone who a few players said they found scummy, and not posting much of a case yourself (aside from the above, which is not strong).

also, as was mentioned, the claim and move on wording is weird.

Move on=proceed. Move forward etc. Obviously, how one ""proceeds" depends in the circumstances at hand. Questioning what I said there is lazy. Speaking of...

I have found scum. Don't feel the need to do much more at this time.

Ok, good. You say you've found scum (which I'm not). Even if I was, there are two more scum out there. and you feel you don't need to do much more at this time? How is that helpful?

on smash: he said mallow was scum but placed his vote elsewhere. imo that warrants my earlier statement of

smash, on the other hand, has been calling players scummy but putting his votes elsewhere.

lew: how was the sapo shot "not really a proof of big brains, imo"? didn't sapo try and lynch a claimed power role?

...

fine. no voting block. whatever. theres 14 pages of content to sift through. i would like to lynch from the mallow/smash slots. if thats not going to happen, someone has to convince me to vote elsewhere. as of right now, i am not compelled. i will reread while we wait and see if there is anything else i feel like discussing. if i missed any questions just let me know.

yes, that warrants your statement. You fail to see that i continued to say mallow was scum and said i would return with a bigger case. I've been calling a couple people scum at once, and putting my vote on one of them. so yes. i have called mallow scum and put my vote elsewhere.

you've fine with lynching either mallow or me? mallow is my top scum read. you did express interest in voting mallow, when you said competing wagons were good. By doing that you rid yourself of being on a mislynch. But your read on mallow mustn't have been very strong, was it? because when Zhero claim, you went to the werewolf wagon, thinking now that Zhero wouldn't be lynched, you would do well with a werewolf lynch.

vote don_johnson

I believe we have scum. and yes don, now I'm voting for someone other than mallow, who i believe is scum. call me scummy for that.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

--- until that point, no, i did not think Consig scummy. When i went back over the thread and saw what others had pointed out, I started to believe that Consig was scum. It's a crime to change my mind?

It is fairly serious circumstantial evidence when there is no clear reason for the change (you still haven't given one) and the change has a patent scum motivation.

--- I saw it scummy for it to build up as fast as it did, probably with scum trying to look more townlike. I agreed with the reasoning behind, but I usually am suspicious when something happens to fast. leads to "mistaking how many votes there were" and early lynches.

You aren't addressing my argument.

If you had simply said "I agree with the reasoning, but this wagon is too fast" that would have been fine.

But you didn't. You not only agreed with the reasoning, but you also announced your own intention to join the wagon "in a day or two".

ok. sorry about changing my mind. But all I can say is that during my reread, Consig looked scummier than before.

Ok. I assumed that saying I would be joining the wagon meant that I agreed with the rationale. I said that the wagon was going too fast, which is why I didn't vote right away.

Don

on page 2 votes for lew because of smilies.
on page 4 he returns, but doesn't comment on anything that has happened, only defending his vote by saying

quick response there, powerox. vote about "smilies" really shouldn't be confusing. especially since i explained it thoroughly. what about it "confuses" you?

what exactly "happened" that you feel i should be commenting on at that point in the game?

Consig, his actions, and whether or not he was town or scum.

after the above quote, he removes his vote,

as the wagon obviously didn't pick up steam

.

bolded is the add-on commentary opinion. what i posted was "lew's response was acceptable". so again, so far the case is basically a summary. kind of like a book report one might put together in the fourth grade.

I'm getting somewhere with this. You put a vote on a person for a reason, and removed it once no one really agreed with it.

he also suggests going to another reason, but says he has to read over the game. sounds innocent,

but could be that he wants to test the waters and see who people would agree with a wagon on.

at the time there was a 4 person Consig wagon, but it probably would have been scummy to join that wagon so suddenly. something interesting to note is that gonzoo did not have any votes on him at the time.

anything "could be". our job is to find out "what is". this is just speculation. and funny, here smash describes a move to the consig wagon as something that might be "scummy". did consig flip town? how do we know that consig is not, in fact, scum? this is a grand assumption here. PO has been posting town, but if smash thinks the move to the consig wagon would be scummy, and that dj didn't do it, then this part of the case should read:

DJ ISN'T SCUMMY.

moving on...

I'm not saying that Consig/PurpleOrange is town. I'm saying that it would be scummy to jump on a large wagon early without anything to suggest that you were interested in the wagon. This part of my case is about the fact that you say little about anything, and instead say I will reread the thread. this gives you more time, and the Consig wagon would either get enough evidence that no one could ignore the evidence, so you wouldn't have to post a case, OR that the wagon would fizzle out and you could say "obviously Consig is townie, what are you guys talking about?" and you wouldn't have gotten your hands dirty by voting a large wagon.

comments like this irk me. He shows that he's willing to go on the mallow wagon, and jumps on the zhero wagon once the case is brought up again, and a second person votes mallow.

it "irks" you? how? why? if i recall correctly, i was one of the pioneers of the zhero wagon. my iso 7 is wall of text which clearly explains my move to the zhero wagon. dismissing it by describing my move to the wagon as a mere "jump" is slightly off.

don't have too much time to look into the iso's and all right now, don't want to be online too long. make sure i check this tomorrow, so it's fresh in my head.

looking back at the block. lew already has a vote on me, and it's obvious that TheAdmiral and Gonzooo also thinks im scummy. Just as votes and ta-da! insta-wagon! just add votes! but on a more serious note, he gets away with a vote on me, saying "he's not sure quite why" and trying to persuade 3 more votes on me. he pretty much wants to say you guys do the work, I'll vote with you.

and here is the "convincing" part? this sounds like a description of how one goes about getting a suspect lynched. you encourage others to vote with you, while voting one of your top suspects. is it suddenly suspicious to try and organize the lynch of a suspect in the game of mafia? how would you describe other wagons? like mine for example. i have just accumulated a couple of votes. is it an "insta-wagon"? and if so, is that scummy? all this is is more "summary". summary =/= analysis.

You get a suspect lynched by saying "hey, let's all vote for someone

you

think is scummy, but I won't say why just yet, because none of you have. Had you made up a case on me, then I would understand your vote. But you didn't. You voted me without reason, and encouraged others to vote me and give reasons of their own. Not making a case yourself + getting others to vote = scum.

scum-tastic. i used the unvote from rvs because first mallow says he agrees with you, then unvotes, saying he was just trying to humor you. you said the vote was serious.

mallow agrees, therefore his vote is serious

. then he takes it back completely. i don't call this rvs

ooh. he's broken out the big guns. descriptor words. "scum-tastic". let's break this down:

i used the unvote from rvs... i don't call this rvs

he is still using the events of the rvs to condemn mallow.

your case is tied into how mallow acted in the rvs. his initial backtrack from his rvs vote is the main gist of your entire case against him. your failed logic doesn't absolve you(its bolded). in rvs, people do things for reactions and such. people work to create pressure. mallow

may

have been doing just that. do you still feel strongly that mallow is scum?

yes. he has knowingly lurked through most of the game, giving minimal support and opinions on his leads and votes. I still believe that the above quote makes him scummy, but that isn't what my case on him is centered around.

it could be scum picking on an easy target, ok. you could also be scum picking on an easy target, someone who a few players said they found scummy, and not posting much of a case yourself (aside from the above, which is not strong).

logic fail. can't say my case and your case are similar and that my case is not strong, but then vote me. its just silly.

confused at your comment. explain?

also, as was mentioned, the claim and move on wording is weird.

weird how?

just didn't like the wording of it.

Even if I was, there are two more scum out there. and you feel you don't need to do much more at this time? How is that helpful?

if you are scum, then i am satisfied with the job i have done. finding scum is helpful. one at a time is the best i can do.

this seems to me that it's scum, taking one day at a time, getting one townie lynched at a time.

yes, that warrants your statement. You fail to see that i continued to say mallow was scum and said i would return with a bigger case. I've been calling a couple people scum at once, and putting my vote on one of them. so yes. i have called mallow scum and put my vote elsewhere.

did i miss the "bigger case" on mallow?

mentioned above, his lurking and minimal help to the town.

you've fine with lynching either mallow or me? mallow is my top scum read. you did express interest in voting mallow, when you said competing wagons were good.

By doing that you rid yourself of being on a mislynch.

But your read on mallow mustn't have been very strong, was it? because when Zhero claim, you went to the werewolf wagon, thinking now that Zhero wouldn't be lynched, you would do well with a werewolf lynch.

please explain the bolded. i am unclear as to what you are implying and i would like clarification before i respond to this section. also, why have you done nothing to convince me to vote mallow?

i have posted my case on mallow, multiple times. I can quote it again if you'd like.

By voting for a competing wagon, you allowed yourself to avoid putting a vote on the werewolf(town) wagon, and therefore the scrutiny that comes the say after. I'm sayign that your move to mallow was just so that when werewolf (the more likely lynch) would probably flip, you would have hands clean and a suspect for the next day already.

--- You first say it is scummy for me to leave my vote on someone who will not create a fuss over it. Then you say it is scummy for me to move my vote to other people. What?

I can see how you would get that impression but that is a slight misrepresentation of what I am saying.
Essentially I am accusing you of trying to fly under the radar. I believe you are doing this by keeping your vote on one person, and voting other people only when they have copped a bit of heat and look like potential lynches.

I have not been keeping my vote on one person. Though I have had my vote on, and believe mallow to be scum, I have paid attention to others. I can see your point about only voting others when it was popular, but since I believed that mallow was scummier than anyone else, I focused on him most of the day. If someone was close to lynch, or a popular wagon, I moved from mallow to hopefully learn more about their views, activities, and hopefully get a better read on them.

@smashbro - where are you at? You haven't said anything since the attention shifted away from you? Lurking and crossing your fingers?

sorry, had a busy weekend. planned to be on more. If I had been scum, I would have popped on every so often and made small posts to push the dj case further, hoping for a quick lynch and the day to be over.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

Ok. I assumed that saying I would be joining the wagon meant that I agreed with the rationale. I said that the wagon was going too fast, which is why I didn't vote right away.

I know that. I can read.

My point is is and has been since the first time I raised this issue that there is an obvious inconsistency in saying that you are ready to vote (minus an artificial time buffer of a few days), but also smearing the other wagoners for joining too quickly.

By voting for a competing wagon, you allowed yourself to avoid putting a vote on the werewolf(town) wagon, and therefore the scrutiny that comes the say after. I'm sayign that your move to mallow was just so that when werewolf (the more likely lynch) would probably flip, you would have hands clean and a suspect for the next day already.

If DJ-town genuinely suspected Mallow over Werewolf should he have voted Werewolf anyway?

I can understand how somebody could both think that a wagon was reasonable but also that it was moving too quickly.

But Smash didn't do that. He indicated that he would join the wagon in a few days time. I can't see in any sense why that has any game relevance; it is, as I indicated above, entirely artificial.

My smearing of the other wagoners was the fact that, with even a few days left, there was no hesitation by them. It was relevant that I would wait, because we had time till deadline, and I wanted to see other people's reactions to the events. If every person voted for Zhero as soon as they saw the Zhero vote, there would have been no chance to discuss whether or not it was a good choice.

That's the thing. I don't see Dj town. He had been telling me to present a good case on Mallow all day, and didn't seem to believe in it. But once the Werewolf wagon gained votes, he suddenly thinks that it would be good to have two wagons, and goes onto none other than Mallow. He had been vocal about his other reads, but didn't seem to be sold on Mallow. Once someone else joined the Mallow wagon, he joined it too, rather than Werewolf. That's the point. I didn't think that DJ suspected Mallow over Werewolf.

if its between me and smash, then my vote obviously goes to smash, but i would really like implo to be looked at here and my post later will explain why, but it seems noone even addressed my earlier point about his soft play on day 1. he gave lew a pass for excessive smilies but condemned consig for joking around and posting off-topic. now, on day 2, we have lew abandoning the smash wagon, and both smash and implo dropping reactionary votes on me. i don't know, it would be bold to call the whole scum team here, and i actually think that smash might be the town among them, but i certainly think the three of them should be the ones under the microscope today. the mallow slot, aside, those three have been making the "oddest" and "oppurtunistic" moves so far. i may have tried to start a voting block, but i was the first one on the wagon. and have since moved to a new suspect.

My "giving a pass" to Lew on day 1 for smilies was because it was early on in the game, as in the second page. THis was still during early RVS, or whatever you would like to call it. As the game went on, Consig's posts stayed the same, whereas Lew moved onto scumhunting and such.

I don't believe my vote is reactionary. If you mean that I only voted because you prodded/voted me, then in a way, yes. You post made me want to go back, and look at your play more closely. If you're suggesting OMGUS, then no. I believe in the case.

Not making a case yourself + getting others to vote = scum.

false.

By voting for a competing wagon, you allowed yourself to avoid putting a vote on the werewolf(town) wagon, and therefore the scrutiny that comes the say after. I'm sayign that your move to mallow was just so that when werewolf (the more likely lynch) would probably flip, you would have hands clean and a suspect for the next day already.

only problem here is that i was on the wolf wagon. so i didn't "avoid the scrutiny".

what do you think of implosion?

What I saw scummy about you suggesting my wagon, was that you brought up no support for it, and said yourself you don't know why. You singled out some of the more vocal players, who members of the town are likely to believe more easily, and suggested they join my wagon, and assumedly make cases. To me, this seems like you're hiding in a place where you could try to pressure me, while not looking too bad when I flipped town.

When you moved to the Werewolf wagon, it was because you wanted a lynch on town, which is inherently helpful to scum. Originally, it looks like you were avoiding the Werewolf wagon even though it was the popular one. It would look pro-town to have competing wagons, as you said. The Werewolf lynch was very likely to happen, and so you not being on the wagon would help you avoid scrutiny the day after. So when you did vote Werewolf, it seemed as though you still wanted a lynch on town, and so with deadline looming voted Werewolf.








As for my paragraph on who I'd prefer, obviously DJ, thought Mallow would be a good choice too.

As mentioned, DJ votes for Mallow to allow for competing wagons on Day 1. I assume that this shows that he also entertains the idea of Mallow being scum, or at least scummy. He does say that he would be interesting in a Mallow wagon. However, today he writes:

its nice to see smash trying, but ultimately his posts are weak. he is still using the events of the rvs to condemn mallow. i don't think mallow's actions at that point in the game were terribly scummy.

I don't particularly like the inconsistencies.

Also, he writes off my case as unconvincing, but has not addressed my most recent rebuttal.

DJ failed to comment on Consig early on, waiting until the wagon died down to give his opinion.
He puts a voting block on me but gives no particular reasons, which indicates to me that he's following the hunches of other players, and trying to rally them behind him without giving more support himself.
During RVS, you make a big deal of Lew's smilies, but now say I am scummy for disliking Consig's actions, which lasted outside of RVS.

Vote Count

don_johnson (3) - Gonzoooo, smashbro_of_the_SSS, implosion
smashbro_of_the_SSS (2) - ThAdmiral, vollkan
implosion (1) - don_johnson

Not Voting (3) - Purple Orange, mallowgeno, lewarcher82

With 9 alive it is 5 to lynch. The deadline is set for the end of December 13th, PST.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

i'm really sorry guys, but I don't have time for this game.

replace out please

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

I still plan on replacing out, given that it's around time for finals, and I probably won't have much time this week or on vacations to contribute. However, Ald asked me to stick around for a couple days, until the day is over. I assume this is so a replacement can be found at night. So I'll keep playing till the end of the day. If you can't find a replacement I'll stick around, but I can't guarantee much time/posts.

Had a look. Where did dj do what you say he did? I don't see it.

Looking back, I have to take back the point that DJ was not interested in Mallow. He was, but with these posts.

i could be persuaded to the mallow wagon at this point.

i could get with a mallow wagon. but i think thad's questions should be answered.

These aren't taken out of any context of reasons for this. They're still not looking good to me, as it seems to be another throwaway line just to cover himself if he joins.

I was originally voting Mallow, then PO joined the wagon. DJ follows PO.




ok, so, overall. This game hasn't gotten any more clear for me. myko hasn't done anything for me to improve the slot, so I would still like that lynch. DJ's play hasn't sat well with me either, even though that read is not as strong as I had believed earlier in the day. I'd take myko over, DJ, but wouldn't mind DJ next.

As for the others, I really don't know. I see PO as town, same with ThAd, Volkan and Lew. If pushed, I would have to say that I wouldn't mind a lynch on Gonzoo or Implo. I've though Implo was town, but I'll have to reread the case again. The Gonzoo case is interesting, and I think could be something to be looked into, but I'm not on board with that quite yet. I'd need more convincing.


Myko hasn't made much of an argument since joining the game, only defending his vote on PO, sayign that PO's play has been passive. The main argument is that PO's play has been completely opposite from ThAd's. Since when does whether someone is passive or aggressive mean they are or aren't scum? Also, If you want, I can bring up my old case on Mallow, but I'm pretty sure most people get the gist. giving us as little as possible in regards to scumhunting and his read.

I should be getting to bed, as mentioned, finals week. for now

unvote, vote:mykonian

I'll keep checking the thread through the day tomorrow

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

I was originally voting Mallow, then PO joined the wagon. DJ follows PO.

Why did you get off it and jump on wolf's right after that?

I can't really prove this, but I was working on my post while DJ voted. I did see that DJ went over to the Mallow wagon afterwards, but I was suspicious of Werewolf at the time, and thought that the extra pressure would help me get a better read on Werewolf. With a couple people on Mallow already, and it was known that I still was interested in Mallow, I thought there would be enough pressure on him too.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

yeah, i'm fine with showing it. idr much of what was said anyway.

not really my best play at all, sorry guys. it was fun at least, while I was around.