Mini 1069 - Hospital Madness Mafia (Game Over!)

[Uprising]

IMO, avatar bets are pointless and distracting, and at times, against the rules.

Against the rules?


I'm sorry, I've never heard of avatar bets or anything and have no idea what they mean.

[Nobody Special]

Some Mods have specific rules against outside-the-game wagers. I can't recall who at this moment.

Avatar bets are, as I thought had been said earlier, where two

idiots

players make a wager, the outcome to be determined later, and the loser has to change their avatar to something stupid, inane, or demoralizing.

As I said, pointless.

[Exe]

Prod recieved. Halloween n classes have been/continue to be nuts.

I'll hammer to avoid a no-lynch, but not right now. I'm going to re-ISO a few players before this day is finished while we still have time.

[TheLonging]

It's also a sign of their position, or how strong they believe in the lynch.

[Lrdwhyt]

So, hey there, guys. I'm a bit late to the party, and I have a lot to make up for, as it seems that my predecessors weren't terribly active.

I finally finished reading the thread, which took a really long time. If I've learned one thing, it's to not sub in for games that have 25 pages. Way too overwhelming. Anyway, I'm afraid I don't really have a lot of things to say, as I don't make notes while reading, but I do have a few comments on things that stood out to me.

CooLDoG, I'm unsure of whether it's popular for vigilantes to shoot, but I'm of the opinion that it would be wisest to abstain from shooting tonight, unless you have a

really

good lead. I think the way you've reacted is fairly pro-town; a mafia member would've likely argued against shooting and pointed out the detrimental aspects of it so as to avoid suspicion when they can't prove their claim. Proving that you're innocent isn't really that important, anyway.

Tasky, I find your style of voting without providing reasons and refusing to read the thread when there really isn't that much to read (if you started from the beginning) annoying, but it doesn't really say much about your alignment. It is, however, strange that you claim to have no particular reason for voting someone, yet push on them. "Feelings" are always triggered by something. Explain why you have feelings, instead of using it as an excuse to vote people for no reason.

Uprising is interesting, and I don't think I've seen her contributing anything of substance, really. I agree that she's playing the newb card or confused card or whatever (she doesn't seem to be that new) is strange. The possibility of her being scum is there. Also, I think someone mentioned that she might be faking it, and pointed out how her play in another game was radically different. I don't think anyone ever responded to this, and I'm not sure why. I read a few pages of her first game (Newbie 1005) and I must agree. She's really playing the newb card heavily this game, and I think that's warranting of a vote.

Wingless's vig strategies are stupid, but not really suspicious.

No comment about the others, I'm afraid. I don't have any real suspicions as of yet, but I'm hoping to get more of a feel for the players in this game sometime soon.

VOTE: Uprising

I'll reread the arguments on TheLonging and see if it's worth hammering him, but I am for now content with my Uprising vote.

[TheLonging]

ISO 33 + 34 btw, I use meta as a stepping stone UNLESS it's so severe that it trumps everything else (see, shotty) and NS falls into that, mostly. the other reason why I thought he was town was because nothing he did made sense as scum, especially combined with his claim

[Enigma]

4 more votes to get Uprising lynched! KGO!

[Lrdwhyt]

In TL's fascinating ISO, we have the following:
#0,1,2,3,4 deal with an RVS lynch on the mod. My theory on this is it was an attempt at a joke to make him seem like he was just along for the fun of the game (which is what town are, in for the fun of scumhunting).

Your theory isn't much of a reason to lynch him.

Wagon forms on him as a joke in response to a joke, and he reacts with a nice helping of OMGUS.

I looked at it, and he seems to be voting you for joining a bandwagon for the sake of joining a bandwagon. That is not the same thing as voting someone for voting you.

Then we get this. Remember this for later, it's kind of funny.

I don't give a shit about NS, and he's not buddying, but feel free to point out examples.

This is in response to my pointing out NS's unvote when TL was at L-3.
I react in a dismissive way of his crappy omgus vote, and he goes on the attack.

Try reading the thread.

You... you can't explain the false accusations you have against me for buddying. That's unbelievable.

So NS unvoted me, thus we're scum and/or he's buddying up to me and/or I'm buddying up to him? If this is the only reason you're calling me scum, I expect you to make no reservations calling everyone in this game scum.

Spot the backtracking between point 1 and 2 for a bonus point! Point 1: I didn't buddy
Point 2: Lol yeah ok so I did buddy but everyone does it. (The classic HEY LOOK EVERYONE IS DOING IT tell)

Considering how Nobody Special was the one who unvoted TheLonging, I don't see how TheLonging would be the buddier here. Even if what you say is true, it would be NS buddying.
His second point is hard to understand. I interpreted it as "if your logic is true, then anyone who unvotes someone else is scum" rather than "NS unvoted me and we're buddying, but everyone else is, too!".

ISO #8 is more of the same, bolded the important part

he voted me because NS unvoted for me, which means us 2 must be buddying, when in reality, I couldn't give a shit if NS was lynched and I don't care that he's trying to buddy up with me.

oh and this.

"I think TLing (I like that, it's short and cool) is a bit ... opportunistic about distancing from me. Trust me on this, if nothing else, he and I are NOT buddies in any sense."

His trying to distance himself from accusations of buddying is indeed irregular.

ISO #9,10,11,12,13 are junk
ISO #14 is useless too.
ISO #15:

if you play for more this game, I expect you to do this to every single goddamn wagon. And I want to see how accurate this is. It isn't, seeing as how you've only played for 2 months though, I give you some leeway thinking this way.

Continuing the yes there is buddying but it doesn't mean anything argument.
Also tries to say his vote wasn't OMGUS, but was rather wagon analysis, when the only analysis possible on it was "Hey let's run someone up to L-2 for fun"/ and then voting the largest wagon. the

Interesting

part of that wagon was NS's hop

OFF

, which he completely ignored.

I interpreted this as "I hope you are going to FoS anyone unvoting someone who's being bandwagoned for the entirety of this game."
His vote wasn't OMGUS, really.

"
I am voting Tasky for wagon jumping (and the timing of the vote), his laziness to explain reading, his attitude seems like a really bad attempt at being genuinely defensive, and the fact that he tries to draw a link to me and NS, despite the fact that it's not even the fact that what NS did was not close to buddying; it's a really cheap tactic to draw up reasoning to try and call me scum later on."
His vote was on me when this was posted - forgetting where vote is, Scumpoints for u.

I don't associate forgetting who you're voting with being town or scum, just poor play.

ISO 21/22 "Hey what do you know, Cooldog was scum. This was not surprising at all. goddammit, I meant town" Fishing for towncred, really?
ISO 27 "Read that quote again. Cooldog is trying to set up WIFOM and almost carries a tone like "Oh I don't really believe what I am saying", and then puts a light FoS on Wingless"
Real classy. Remember your fake reads on people, please.

His contradicting views of CooLDoG's innocence is also suspicious.

ISO 28:

I don't know who I was voting, but fuck this

ISO 33:

Uprising has been far too used to IRC mafia, and I don't use meta to decide on town/scum players so meh.

ISO 34:

I had a gut feeling NS was town because he was like this in every other game he was in.

HO HO HO HO DO MINE EYES DECIEVE ME? More towncred fishing plus a blatant contradiction in CONSECUTIVE POSTS.

Good point.

ISo 35 starts the lolol that's a scum PR wagon, which is a bunch of bull. with 0 flips, we have no idea what is or isn't a scum pr, not to mention the part where scum get fake role pms, and I'm fairly sure they aren't going to be bad fakeclaims.

I believe he meant that it was a role that made a lot more sense as a mafia role than as a town role.
You are correct, but his observation is still valid. Perhaps the mafia wished to claim a PR when they were given a vanilla innocent fake claim. That's pretty unlikely, though.

ISO 36: And BTW, NS has somewhat of a motive for his lulzy play. Moo just has scummy play and claims a role that'd work a lot better for scum.
Totally not buddying, amirite?

It is buddying (by your definition), but this is the first instance of TheLonging buddying you've pointed out.

Vote: TheLonging

Lets get this wagon going.

Your case against TheLonging isn't bad, but most of your points are invalid. I still find Uprising to be a much better day 1 lynch.

[chesskid3]

Based on the really fast wagonhops onto the TL wagon though, a flip would be nice soon. IDK, we have more time now which is awesome. One of Uprising or TL will be today's lynch, I agree.

just got back from the rally to restore sanity will reread what happened while I was gone tomorrow

[Enigma]

Yay .. someone I can agree with for once.

Fast forwarding to the next page, we see multiple people coming in and saying they agree with the Chess case. They don't say what they agree with or even discuss why they find him scummy, just use it as an excuse to jump on the TL wagon as scum.
Maybe it's me, but I actually tried to read the whole case properly next to TL ISO, to decide if I would be willing to hammer TL. I just can't find the same enthutisuam as the others (Tasky, Zang, Exe and Uprising). So these guys gain some more scum points. I'll do a bet that there is at least one, most likely 2 scum in this group.

[Enigma]

Dear Nobody Special,

Care to answer this question which I asked quite a while ago?
Or at least PM the mod and ask for clarification then report back to us!

I hope you are having a wonderful Halloween!

Many thanks, Kind regards, Yours Sincerely,
Enigma

[Charnel]

Some Mods have specific rules against outside-the-game wagers. I can't recall who at this moment.

Avatar bets are, as I thought had been said earlier, where two

idiots

players make a wager, the outcome to be determined later, and the loser has to change their avatar to something stupid, inane, or demoralizing.

As I said, pointless.

Exactly. Stuff like this is not part of the game. It is just as insane to bet $50 on your allignment. It shouldn't be part of the game.

CooLDoG, I'm unsure of whether it's popular for vigilantes to shoot, but I'm of the opinion that it would be wisest to abstain from shooting tonight, unless you have a

really

good lead. I think the way you've reacted is fairly pro-town; a mafia member would've likely argued against shooting and pointed out the detrimental aspects of it so as to avoid suspicion when they can't prove their claim. Proving that you're innocent isn't really that important, anyway.

No. He should shoot. If he can't think of anything, he can still shoot lurkers, or players who were voted a lot. As long as he shoots people who are going to be lynched, he can't go wrong. Do the maths. A vig shooting in the end gives to more opportunities to kill someone, and the mafia less.

lrdwhyt doesn't give me any reason to change my earlier reads on that slot. It's telling though that this game needs an analysis of the chesscase to finally pull the breaks on the TL wagon. I doubt anybody on the wagon read it well, as it was hard to read, and ISO-cases are a sign of weakness already.

Tomorrow I'm going to take a good look at him, as I don't think it is valuable to do that D1.

[CooLDoG]

@NS, the point is not void, because you were willing to show up after the dead line... Answer the damn questions.
@Lrd, I get your point but every body here insists on me killing tonight. I have a few leads but I'll have to see who I kill. A no-kill is still an option if I don't find anyone who is likely scum. However, this will most likly not happen because I have two or three good targets... (don't worry all you kill happy people)

@chesskid, I hate that you got to go and I didn't was it good?

[Charnel]

Based on the really fast wagonhops onto the TL wagon though, a flip would be nice soon. IDK, we have more time now which is awesome. One of Uprising or TL will be today's lynch, I agree.

just got back from the rally to restore sanity will reread what happened while I was gone tomorrow

There is no case on NS other than his role PM.
The case on Uprising is crap too, though he might actually be scum.

Why aren't you sticking with your wagon, now that it probably won't lead to a lynch? I thought you were so convinced?

Why does a flip on TL matter? Either the bad votes were people bussing him, or those were the people that bandwagonned him. Either way they are more likely scum. And why are you in all your post trying to keep the attention away from NS?

[chesskid3]

BECAUSE NS ISN'T SCUM. WHY ARE YOU TUNNELING HIM, FOR THE REVERSE QUESTION?

I'm ok with abandoning my case on TL because I'm confident he will be dead soon, and Uprising is #2 on my scumlist.

[CooLDoG]

@chess, why isn't NS scum? Just a point of interest.

[chesskid3]

absolutely no scum motivation for his play. He's painting a huge vig target on his face, and honestly I would be happy if he were dead, because he's anti-town, but he's not scum, so a lynch on him would get no information.

[Charnel]

BECAUSE NS ISN'T SCUM. WHY ARE YOU TUNNELING HIM, FOR THE REVERSE QUESTION?

I'm ok with abandoning my case on TL because I'm confident he will be dead soon, and Uprising is #2 on my scumlist.

I'm voting Uprising. NS is second choice. I do not like that you are misrepping the long NS case, and that you place the false dichotomy that we have to pick between Uprising and TL. The NS wagon has had plenty of support and it is

odd

how you act around the NS case.

Esspecially as you now say that you actually don't mind that NS dies.

[chesskid3]

why is it so hard to understand that while lynching VIs can help avoid misslynches at lylo, it is one of the worst possible lynches you can do because you get no information from it? Are you really this thick, or are you scum deliberately NOT getting the memo?

I fully support vigging VIs. I will never support lynching them.

[Charnel]

A no-kill is still an option if I don't find anyone who is likely scum.

I'll do the maths for you. Assuming that there is no other killing role then you and scum:

With 12 players, and ending the game in a 3p lylo (the longest time the game could take), there would be 4 day/night cycles to get to 4p mylo after which there is a no-lynch. 4 deaths done by town, 5 by scum.

The same situation with a vig: gives 3 day/night cycles to get to a 3p lylo. 6 deaths done by town (3 lynches and 3 vig-shots), and 3 by scum.

The fact that you shoot means that town gets much more influence on the game. Scum gets two less possibilities to kill a very protown person, meaning that you might get a very protown player into lylo (which matters a lot). Town gets two shots extra two shots to take out lurkers, scummy looking players, generally everybody who looks scummy. You would get a lylo with more protown players.

SHOOT

[Charnel]

why is it so hard to understand that while lynching VIs can help avoid misslynches at lylo, it is one of the worst possible lynches you can do because you get no information from it? Are you really this thick, or are you scum deliberately NOT getting the memo?

I fully support vigging VIs. I will never support lynching them.

I'm the type of player who doubts that the lynch is more effective then the vig. Esspecially with a good player as vig, he can be more accurate then the lynch, as the vig is 100% town. The lynch always has scum influence.

If we really want to do the information argument (while it is most times silly and hardly ever protown), the NS wagon would give double the information. He got to L-1 before, so you get to analyse 2 complete wagons. Who bandwagonned, who led, who promised to hammer but stayed off: all those questions could then be answered twice. The fact that his play is scummy has nothing to do with the outcome. Either all those players were right and you are going to look for who bussed and who was honest, or he is town and you are going to look for who bandwagonned and who was honest.

And you really want to rethink calling me stupid. You couldn't be more wrong.

[chesskid3]

You still get to analyize the wagon post-flip, but you get to actually force people to vote for Uprising who is likely to be scum.

[Parama]

Day 1 Vote Count #22

[6] TheLonging

- chesskid3, Tasky, Zang, Uprising, Nobody Special, CooLDoG

[3] Uprising

- Enigma, Charnel, Lrdwhyt

[1] Nobody Special

- Exe

[1] Charnel

- TheLonging

[0] Enigma

-

[0] Exe

-

[0] CooLDoG

-

[0] chesskid3

-

[0] Tasky

-

[0] Wingless

-

[0] Zang

-

[0] Lrdwhyt

-

Not Voting (1): Wingless

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is 11/03/10 at 9 AM CST.

TheLonging is at L-1.

Prodding Tasky.

[Lrdwhyt]

absolutely no scum motivation for his play. He's painting a huge vig target on his face, and honestly I would be happy if he were dead, because he's anti-town, but he's not scum, so a lynch on him would get no information.

Why would you want him dead if you don't think he's scum? Anti-town play can only hurt you if you actually listen to him. Ignoring them (if you know that they're innocent for sure) makes them a dead weight.

why is it so hard to understand that while lynching VIs can help avoid misslynches at lylo, it is one of the worst possible lynches you can do because you get no information from it? Are you really this thick, or are you scum deliberately NOT getting the memo?

I fully support vigging VIs. I will never support lynching them.

I'm the type of player who doubts that the lynch is more effective then the vig. Esspecially with a good player as vig, he can be more accurate then the lynch, as the vig is 100% town. The lynch always has scum influence.

If we really want to do the information argument (while it is most times silly and hardly ever protown), the NS wagon would give double the information. He got to L-1 before, so you get to analyse 2 complete wagons. Who bandwagonned, who led, who promised to hammer but stayed off: all those questions could then be answered twice. The fact that his play is scummy has nothing to do with the outcome. Either all those players were right and you are going to look for who bussed and who was honest, or he is town and you are going to look for who bandwagonned and who was honest.

And you really want to rethink calling me stupid. You couldn't be more wrong.

Vigging also doesn't allow the targeted player to defend themselves, provide a claim, contribute their fullest, and it's always affected by any mistakes the vig might've made in reading/interpreting. But, yeah, if CooLDoG has a worthy target, I guess he should shoot. If he's just shooting for the sake of clearing himself, I don't think he should.

[chesskid3]

All it takes in lylo is one stupid town to lose. NS needs to be dead by lylo.