Newbie 1024 -- Minimalist Mafia (Game Over)

[Trendall]

Beefster's voting pattern so far:

* Randomly votes for Trendall
* Votes Kayi for a very tentative reason
* Unvotes
* Puts vote back on Kayi
- Goes on to say that his vote is at about 1/10 in seriousness at the moment
* Votes for Trendall for not doing anything useful

As far as I can see, he's not voted for anyone because he actually thinks they're mafia yet. He berated lots of people in the game for posting things that were irrelevant, and expressed his dislike of the RVS and RQS, yet none of his votes have been remotely relevant at all. There's a big bandwagon forming on him, and he suddenly switches his vote to me. No argument or case, he just votes for me because he wants me to talk more. I'm pretty certain that when the most votes in the game are on you, it is not the right time to change your vote from somebody who you've been suspicious of all game to a random policy lynch. I see Beefster's most recent vote as him trying to turn the bandwagon on him around to the most easy target, which seems to have become me over the past page or so.

I'm reluctant to hammer on Beefster right now, because if he flips as town, you'll all see me as an opportunistic mafia who lurks and then hammers on a town player. However, I will if I have to, so I'd like to just give it a bit more time first.

[RedCoyote]

Vote Count 6

• Beefster

  (Kayi - Mastin - Neruz - Mute)
  
  

  Kayi

  (Lateralus22)

  
  

  Mute

  (Jay)

  
  

  Jay

  (Yenros)

  
  

  Trendall

  (Beefster)

  
  

  Not Voting

  (Trendall)

With nine alive, it takes five to lynch.
Current Deadline: Nov. 17th, 2010 at 12:00 AM (CST)

[Yenros]

@ Kayi: My point was that he is not even using META on you. If he had a case, that was entirely based on meta, it would seem very opportunistic, because it is possible for someone to change their style. But Mastin has a case against you, and the other game seems just thrown in last moment to me.

@ Trendall: When it comes to hammering, my personal thought based on my game and what I've read, I think you should wait until it's almost deadline to get as much discussion as possible. Of course there are exceptions, such as if discussion comes to a stop or the majority of town say we should end the day and hammer.

[Beefster]

You'll have to forgive me Beef; i don't believe a word of it.

This won't be the first time.
I swear what I have said in defense is absolutely true. I'm a simple vanilla townie. Lynch someone else. (<-- generally not the best strategy, but trying to survive increases the chance of your faction winning. It's just as valid for a townie as it is for scum)

[Mastin]

Sorry I didn't get on yesterday. Got sick. :/
Anyway, I got better.

Mod:

I won't be on Tomorrow. Veteran's Day and all that.
Should be back Friday, though.
(And I've got today, of course. )

[Mastin]

@Mastin: I like the teaching aspect, but I find explaining myself and being an example player to be a challenge, as I have a strange playstyle and I get my poor explanation powers from my dad. Then the aforementioned repetition gets to me.

*Rants*

Spoiler: tICher SEminar

If you like the teaching aspect,

then teach

! No excuses. Being an example player is, indeed, a challenge, one of the reasons I'm not sure I'll ever IC again: I am not the best example. So, what? Doesn't matter. They need a better example than "Guy who gives up after three or four votes are placed on them".

I

have an unusual playstyle, too. I'm freakin' Unabridged Mastin, an infamous player. Does that stop me from doing something I see to be my job? No. I, too, have VERY bad explanation abilities. The fact that I'm so long-winded should make that fact perfectly obvious. It doesn't stop me. And repetition? Sure, I can understand how you might feel differently, but I've already explained why every game seems unique to me, therefore, the repetition is lessened. Until you've been every role in every setup, you can't truly say the game is repetitive. That's 4 games as a 'nilla, 4 games as a goon, and 2 games as a roleblocker, plus 2 more as a cop, and 2 more as a doctor. That's 14 games before you even have a chance of calling it repetitive. Find ways to make the game interesting. Find things which make it fun, instead of repetitive. Don't be a 1a. If nothing else, be a 3a, but try to be a 2a or 4a! (See: My Player Type Theory for what I'm talking about.) As you are, it's really pathetic. People who give up have always bothered me, since what I consider my first game, Newbie 735. (Technically, my first game was 688, but I was scum, panicked, and replaced out. Scarred me forever. Yes, I'm that old; nearly 400 games have passed since I started playing! ) Two of the veteran players--both at IC level--not only gave up; they self-destructed, voted themselves, while throwing wild baseless accusations against their lynchers. Don't be like that, Beef. Never give up on a game. The game ends when you're lynched, or you replace out.

Never

sooner than that.

Also, Beef:

unvote, VOTE: Trendall

Why did you drop your case on Kayi, Beefster? Why change your vote, yet again? I know you stated your reason for Trend:

You've flown under the radar too long. Do something useful. (yay, hypocrisy!)

...But

why

do you find his pattern to be suspicious? Of course, to me, the answer is already there, but look at the newbies: they might not. This is a perfect example of something you can teach, Beefster. Why is flying under the radar for so long bad? Why do you think Trendall has flown under the radar at all?
These are all things you can easily answer.

---

I do not approve of Mute's Vote--Beef's definitely cracked under the pressure. But does that make him scum?

Mute:

Do you think Beefster is scum? If so, why?
I find that vote to be somewhat suspicious.

---

Anyway, be back in a few hours. Done with 7; I'll resume on 8.

[Mute]

Whether or not he is scum, which yes I find to be a possibility of him as much of everyone except for myself, if he has given up on defending himself there's no need to keep him around. "If thy hand or eye offend thee, remove them from thyself; tis better to enter into paradise maimed than to bear the sin in hell." Yes I've left the hammer vote open to be made, but I still have suspicions of Yen, L22's been on my list to watch as of recently, as well as Jay and Kayi. Trendall's not posting I don't see as an issue yet, and due to my own earlier inactivity out of respect I cannot hold that against him as that'd make a hypocrite out of me, but so far I've not gotten any vibes from his posts yet.

[Mastin]

Nope, still not liking Mute's reasoning. It's better explained, but still feels wrong to me. When I have more time, I shall elaborate.

[Lateralus22]

The debate on the agreeing thing is over, I don't get why you're bringing it up again.

Because we're both talking about it and I brought up something new? Are you saying I should be ignoring that part of thread just because "it was discussed a little bit before"?

If that wasn't meta usage to some degree, why did you link to that other game? You're trying to engage me in a battle of concepts and theory ignoring the actual content of my words. I definitely don't like that.

…Because it supports my theory? Everything except the link is talking about your play in

this

game. I refuse to repeat myself when you're obviously ignoring what's right there.

On the Trendall thing, what is there to elaborate?

He said that he his computer broke down, I wanted to know if you thought he was lying.

The one thing I've seen that makes me strongly doubt you is that, even when you seem to have found more in-game evidence to attack Beefster, you're just sticking to your gut and trying to explain it. I don't know what to think about that.

...Im attacking both of you. You're trying to put a bad spin on scum hunting, that's scummy.

My points on Beefster were made clear, I don't see why I should repeat them ten times over.

…I wasn't asking you to repeat yourself, I was asking you to comment on his latest posts.

===========================================================================

Trendall's not posting I don't see as an issue yet

Lurking is bad bad bad bad bad. I can't see any pro town motivation to it so it is anti-town. Simply put, it just means you aren't looking for scum or in the very least not helping as much as you can. Active lurking however (Posting in the thread but not actually posting any content) is scummy though because you're there but not actually scum hunting.

@Beefster, you are not being lynched for your play style, I

don't

think you've been playing in some unorthodox way style at all. You're simply not reading the thread at all and ignoring my questions, you didn't even check the vote count before you claimed.

I'm ready to hammer Beefster some time tomorrow unless anyone has any objections.

[Yenros]

@ Mute: I agree with Mastin about your vote on Beefster. You don't vote someone for giving up on defending themselves, but because you think they are scum. Every town player we lose makes it harder for us to win and easier for the mafia.

[Beefster]

Whether or not he is scum, which yes I find to be a possibility of him as much of everyone except for myself, if he has given up on defending himself there's no need to keep him around. "If thy hand or eye offend thee, remove them from thyself; tis better to enter into paradise maimed than to bear the sin in hell." Yes I've left the hammer vote open to be made, but I still have suspicions of Yen, L22's been on my list to watch as of recently, as well as Jay and Kayi. Trendall's not posting I don't see as an issue yet, and due to my own earlier inactivity out of respect I cannot hold that against him as that'd make a hypocrite out of me, but so far I've not gotten any vibes from his posts yet.

I'm not liking the tentativeness and fence-sitting.
[IC]Often times, leaving openings for later, such as this, is a tool employed by scum. Frequently, tentativeness and fence-sitting leads to the perception of scumminess.[/IC] Although, when I play, I try to take on multiple perspectives throughout the game so that I can try to understand the picture as a whole- and this can sometimes be seen as scummy, as well as leading to frequent vote changes.

unvote

VOTE: Mute

[IC]Never be afraid to use your vote as I have done. It is the most effective tool for catching scum, and you don't have to be cop-sure to make a vote. Nothing is finalized until the hammer falls[/IC]

[Mastin]

I see Beefster's most recent vote as him trying to turn the bandwagon on him around to the most easy target, which seems to have become me over the past page or so.

I have not seen this. Explain.

I'm reluctant to hammer on Beefster right now, because if he flips as town, you'll all see me as an opportunistic mafia who lurks and then hammers on a town player.

This is scummy.

Spoiler: Now I'm doing Sessions for SE's, too!

Why is it scummy, Trend? Because, if you're town, this should be your last concern. We all make mistakes. None of us are perfect; we all have our flaws. If you hammered town, so what? We lose a town player, but gain information from their lynch. True, we wouldn't hit mafia, but we are one step closer to that. A pro-town player should realize this. They shouldn't fear the hammer, because hammering is part of the game. Scum, however, do: scum fear the hammer, because of the exact reason you state: they fear that it'll make them look scummy. It doesn't, not anymore, anyway. Most players who are even semi-experienced realize that hammering is far from a scumtell in most cases. Reluctance to hammer, however,

is

. You're afraid to look bad. Townfolk know they are town, and tend to be a

little

more on the carefree side. Remember my tells? This was one of the most valid for a reason--I've found it's around 60/40 for work/not work. Unless you're constantly cautious, there is no pro-town reason to fear the hammer of a player who

might

be town--they might also be scum; you don't know, if you're town!
If you're scum, however, you do. You

do

know they are town, and that you're hammering town, and that you'll look bad. Therefore, what you did was a bad scumtell, Trendall.
That said, though, just because you don't want to look like scum, doesn't mean there aren't any valid reasons to NOT hammer Beefster. In fact, a very pro-town reason was already brought up in-thread by Yenros: for more discussion. More discussion--99% of the time--will be better than less discussion. Considering how far away the deadline is,

that

is a valid reason to not hammer. Had you said that, I wouldn't have thought twice of it. That you

feared

hammering him, however, is what made it catch my eye.

Dang, I can't help myself. I just love teaching.

but trying to survive increases the chance of your faction winning. It's just as valid for a townie as it is for scum)

This is true, folks. However, do note that it reads like a defense to me, here. While what Beef says is valid, it seems again like something which is being used as an excuse.

Beefster, this has to be one of your best posts in the game so far. Keep it up. However, I do see something which I--again--see as more of an excuse.

Although, when I play, I try to take on multiple perspectives throughout the game so that I can try to understand the picture as a whole- and this can sometimes be seen as scummy, as well as leading to frequent vote changes.

Multiple perspectives? Fine. Understanding the picture as a whole? Good! Frequent vote changes? Unrelated to the previous two, in my mind, so to me, it seems like you're trying to tie your scummy behavior to a more pro-town action.
Also,

Beefster

, I know you changed your vote, but you still have yet to answer the questions I posted, then requoted here. You know, the part about voting Trendall instead of Kayi? I do want to hear you answer those.

[Jay]

@Mute: You mentioned that you find L22 suspicious as well. What's your reasoning behind this? Unless I missed something from before, (in which case, sorry) you did not bother to explain why. I am curious.

[Mastin]

For reference, This is probably the most pro-town thing Jay has said all game. Asking questions is good.

[Mute]

@well, everyone: that is my personal belief. As I've said, the fact that on this site the day lasts so long is extreme culture shock (on the forum I mentioned and frequent, there have been two games that were started, and finished, and now are working on starting a third.) Whether that defense works for you or not, it is my reasoning.

@Jay: His manner of posting is something I'm not used to seeing, so saying I'm suspicious of him was inaccurate. Rather, I will be observing his post style and trying to decipher the rhythm behind them at a later time (am exhausted atm, navy training classes, memorization, the standings and faces; lot of stuff to memorize). Also, as I see that he said he is prepared to hammer beef without addressing my placing a vote on him. [quote=Lateralus22]I'm ready to hammer Beefster some time tomorrow unless anyone has any objections.[/quote] I don't know but he's been adamantly suspecting of beef anyways. Like I said, I am tired so I apologize if this is at all incoherent.

[Neruz]

Beefster has blatantly cracked under the pressure, and as far as i can tell he has not cracked in a town fashion. That, plus the prior reasons i've already stated, is sufficient for me to be fine with seeing him as our D1 lynch.

[Mastin]

As I've said, the fact that on this site the day lasts so long is extreme culture shock (on the forum I mentioned and frequent, there have been two games that were started, and finished, and now are working on starting a third.) Whether that defense works for you or not, it is my reasoning.

Oh, it works...
...For a while.
You can only start to use that justification for so long before it morphs into an excuse. You're getting rather close to that mark, Mute.

Beefster has blatantly cracked under the pressure, and as far as i can tell he has not cracked in a town fashion.

[SE]

Spoiler: SEssion

Never,

ever

crack under pressure, folks. I know. It can be hard to stop, it can creep up unexpectedly, but you have to try. The end result of the crack is never pretty. If you maintain enough sanity, you'll ask for replacement if it's well before the deadline. If you aren't sane, or it's too late, you'll probably get yourself lynched.
Neither are desirable outcomes. Nobody wants to be replaced, nobody want to replace someone else (especially a mod). So, don't. crack. Avoid being in too many games. Note what makes you stressed and try to avoid it. Look for warning signs such as lethargy or--alternatively--extreme emotional swings. "THESE PEOPLE VOTING ME ARE SCUM, SO LYNCH THEM AFTER I FLIP TOWN! I AM THE TOWN DOCTOR, VOTE: ME!, LOOK, I JUST HAMMERED MYSELF!" (No, that's not me. I was in a game which had someone do that, and then, the next person did almost the same thing, only he was sane enough to not fakeclaim doctor. Two back to back IC-level people breaking like that...it's not a pretty sight.) Okay, so that's the extreme end of emotional breakdowns, but you get the idea. Too much emotion or not enough are both signs that perhaps you're beginning to become a little stressed.
Try to remain calm. Try to keep things logical. Even if you're a player working by gut and instinct, your normal methods are worthless if you're going to break down. Remain collected, try to piece yourself together, and never let yourself fall out of the game. This is particularly true if you ever decide to IC. Not only are ICs rare, but they also have the duty to teach. Some games only have one SE, and not all SEs are going to be able to be as good as I am, not able to match the IC. And even those that do won't like the pressure, as not all games have three SE's in addition to the IC; some only have one, as mentioned, so that one SE--even if they were like me--would feel the strain. Don't. Just don't break. It's one of the worst things you can do in a game. And that says a lot. My worst games are the ones where I was broken.
It also effects your reputation. Even if the breakdown is the exception to the rule, it will scar you forever. People remember players who either do really good, or really bad, generally. So, well...just...never give up. Ever. Not all losers are quitters...but all quitters are losers. Keep that in mind, forever. You never want to suffer a meltdown. It will always haunt you, even if you somehow manage to be forgotten by everyone else; you will remember the failure.
Take the warning well, and remember the warning signs, so make sure to -stay away from many games at once. Not necessarily playing just one, but definitely not playing ten. -If real life is a problem, replace out early, instead of late. If it's early, nobody will condemn you. You did the wrong thing. If it's late, you will be criticized. -If it's certain elements in a particular game, try to resolve them. If that is not possible, then again, ask for replacement. -Don't get bored. This is a big one. 1as aren't necessarily bad...but they more than likely will be. If you feel lethargy setting in, get out, quickly.
I'm getting really repetitive, so I'll stop, here. However, the message should be made clear, one more time: No matter your alignment, DO NOT CRACK UNDER PRESSURE. There's ALWAYS a way out. It is your job to assess how to avoid the pressure, or if you can't, find the best way to resolve it.
I...just feel really strongly about this subject. It's worse for an IC, sure, but to some extent, it's with all players. How many people have given up after one tough experience in a game, to never return? How many people have let a single bad experience put them down? Too many; don't let that be you.

Gotta go; see ya Friday.

[/SE]

[Beefster]

@Mastin:
I'm switching my vote for pressure and reaction fishing. (same as previously) It's very useful later on.
I didn't get much of a reaction from trend, so I switched again, also not remembering where I had my vote before.

[Neruz]

Actually when i said 'cracked' i meant his game face has cracked, rather than he has mentally or emotionally cracked...

[Kayi]

I'm sorry I'm not as active these last few days. Real life's been hectic.

L22

, I'm not saying you should ignore it, I just don't see what's the point on discussing this matter further. You said what I thought, I told you what it was.

What I'm trying to say is that I could very well say an opposite theory and back it up with a different game.

Exactly how am I dismissing scumhunt? What I found interesting is your

vote

, taking into account that you said this:

"

Beefster's play is just scummy

with the original alignment fishing nonsense and the pretty weak vote.

Kayi's more of my gut

telling me there's something wrong. My first read through the comments she posted really bothered me and sound false."

I missed when Trendall said his computer broke down. Going back to re-read. I'm finding

Trendall

's last post worthy of mention though. When did he suddenly become the "easiest target"? Too defensive when no one but Beefster has really attacked him in any way. I'd be an 'easier target' than him considering how many people find me scummy. Just sayin'.

I think my last post responded to you as to my current thoughts on Beefster. And also the Trendall thing. Could I ask you to quote my entire post next time, instead of just the lines you're addressing? Just to keep the context absolutely intact.

Mastin

, thanks for your SEssion on pressure. Very much needed.

Mute

, I didn't like the tone of your last post. You should be caring about your reasoning working for the town.

[Mute]

@Kayi: Yes, my post was aggressive. I don't feel like sitting back and letting us get boggled down in back and forths. Beef had 3 votes on him prior to mine and he was cracking under suspicion. It is everyone here who is town to search and eliminate any mafia players, and I will do my damnedest to do so. I will go back over this thread later, and read each post on an individual-to-individual level later. It's my duty as a townie to rid ourselves of scum, and by hunting them down I'm doing my part.

My home situation's also starting to fall apart like I've anticipated it would, so I may become a less frequent poster due to it, but I will do my best to stay in this.

[Mastin]

I'm switching my vote for pressure and reaction fishing. (same as previously) It's very useful later on.

Alright, then. 1: What reactions have you gotten so far?
2: "Fishing" is something you've called bad before. "To get reactions" is fine, but "reaction fishing" sounds like it's more subtle, and less direct--you know, like the other two that you've called bad, alignment and rolefishing? Do explain.
3: You're being lynched. You're at L-1. Explain how this information can be useful later on, if you're currently at a very real risk of being lynched.
Kayi here seems to mainly be mirroring things I said before. Mentions not liking Trend's post (something I mentioned here), and then, mirrors my dislike of Mute's recent posts.

@Kayi: Yes, my post was aggressive.

For reference, aggressiveness

can

be a good thing. Heck, it used to be one of my major town tells. However, not always. Pushing for the lynch of someone more on policy than actual evidence (as it seems to be with Mute), for example, is not a good way to channel aggression.

I don't feel like sitting back and letting us get boggled down in back and forths.

Spoiler: Minor SEssion

This is the nature of Mafia, Mute. We discuss things, back and forth. It might seem repetitive, but it is all good info, especially for later in a game when people do good rereads of the game. Discussion might not ALWAYS be the best thing...
...But it ALMOST always is. Even if the arguments seem like the same thing, over and over again, you can bring that fact up later in the game. "You didn't have multiple arguments. You had the. same. freakin'. one. Over and over again."<--Something like that, in a case against someone else, for example. It's valid, too! As scum, I tended to have a bad habit of mentioning the same thing over and over again, in a different wording than before, simply to try and nail the point in. I tried to get my targets lynched, pushing my case...yet I brought nothing new to it; it was always the same stuff.
As town, I did better. Not much, but better. I brought multiple cases together, and only after I had thought of every possible case I could make did I begin the repetition. So, subtle things like that can make a huge difference. So, like I said, there's no problem with back and forth conversation. It's part of the game, and can be great for rereads. (Particularly if the case someone made--which seemed valid at the time--on further inspection looks like total BS. If someone's pushing total BS constantly, there's something wrong.)

Get what I'm saying?

It is [the job of?] everyone here who is town to search and eliminate any mafia players, and I will do my damnedest to do so.

Funny, considering I didn't seem to get the impression that you really thought Beefster was scum. I got the strong vibe that you thought it was possible he was scum, but that you weren't even close to sure about it.

It's my duty as a townie to rid ourselves of scum, and by hunting them down I'm doing my part.

This might just be me, but I've found that someone constantly calling themselves town, and mentioning their duties and obligations, what the town should do, etc., and doing it frequently...
...Are generally up to something.

---

Anyway, have to leave, for now. Be back soon!

[Mastin]

Mod: Please Prod Trendall and RedCoyote. It's been three days since they last posted.

(Okay, so that's mostly meant as a joke, considering everything. However, Trendall--to my knowledge--has not posted anything about being V/LA--in fact, I seem to recall him stating that this would be his week off, and that he'd have more time available. So a prod might be a good idea, just in case. )

I think everyone's been okay, but I'll do an activity check anyways.

[Beefster]

I'm switching my vote for pressure and reaction fishing. (same as previously) It's very useful later on.

Alright, then. 1: What reactions have you gotten so far?

Mostly negative ones condemning me for my actions.

2: "Fishing" is something you've called bad before. "To get reactions" is fine, but "reaction fishing" sounds like it's more subtle, and less direct--you know, like the other two that you've called bad, alignment and rolefishing? Do explain.

I said earlier that the only fishing I agree with is reaction fishing.

3: You're being lynched. You're at L-1. Explain how this information can be useful later on, if you're currently at a very real risk of being lynched.

You can refer to what dead players said about others after knowing what they flipped. For example, if a cop dies, you may try to look for breadcrumbs in attempt to find who they investigated and what the result was. In my case specifically, you can look at how people reacted to my play, questions, pressure votes, and and use that to piece together a useful case.

In the case that you lynch someone else, though, the information is just as valuable, minus the flip.

[Mastin]

I said earlier that the only fishing I agree with is reaction fishing.

Huh? I don't remember this. Care to point it out? I have a horrendously bad memory.

You can refer to what dead players said about others after knowing what they flipped. For example, if a cop dies, you may try to look for breadcrumbs in attempt to find who they investigated and what the result was. In my case specifically, you can look at how people reacted to my play, questions, pressure votes, and and use that to piece together a useful case.

In the case that you lynch someone else, though, the information is just as valuable, minus the flip.

But the person who was posting for those reactions--you--is going to be the best one at getting information from them. That's basically my main concern with this line of thinking--sure, we gain info, and quite some bit. However, because your intention was reaction fishing, you would be the best one at interpreting those reactions, most likely. So, we'd either have to keep you around, or lose a small amount of information. Get where I'm going with this? The words aren't coming to me easily. :/